PDA

View Full Version : AAR Vickers Tactical AK Operators Class - Aug 20-21, 2011 - Chino, CA



Peshawar
08-25-11, 14:03
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

Here's my little AAR attempt -

In no real order of importance

Rear peep sights like the Krebs and the Mojo are a waste of money. It's just a bad idea. For the record, I admit I was one of only a couple that showed up with one of these sights on their gun. LAV stated his case on it, explained why it was an inferior setup with some rock-solid logic, and it turned out to be true for me as well. Shocker, huh? I shot better with the stock notch rear, to which I swapped my Mojo on TD2 at lunch. Bye bye rear peep sights....

My accuracy and trigger control in this class sucked terribly. I shot all over the place. Just went through a bad divorce, and had only gotten some trigger time once in the last seven months or some crap. A long time. It was an embarrassment for me in that regard. Hands were shaky from all the chemicals and fumes I've been sucking up lately building my guns. I did ok at some other things, but this was a bad showing for me accuracy-wise. I was Snatchzilla. :D How's that for full disclosure!

Master the Loctite! Stuff was constantly coming loose, or falling off. Even whole railed handguards. :eek: Stick shit on other shit like you mean it. Prep the metal right, and use the appropriate thread locker or industrial adhesive (JB Weld, etc.). Again, my own experience in this regard was a grip coming loose, and my backup selector stop pin falling back into my gun (!). That bitch was properly prepped, and red-loctited in there. Still happened. JB weld next time.

My kryptonite is weak side shooting. I SUCKED at it. For some reason, neurological in nature I believe, I have a very difficult time shutting only my right eye while keeping the left eye open. I simply can't (was using irons, not a RDS btw) manage the sight picture shooting weak side with both eyes open. Well, let me mitigate that, I can't do it under stress. I was able to do so right up until it was my turn to shoot…. the ****ing... "poof". My ability disappeared. Stress totally killed my capability to properly have my left eye pick up the rear sight and shoot. So, I proceeded to blow a round right through a wood divider. We had a dressed up line, so it wasn't the end of the world, but.. ugh…. I crashed and burned a few times during the course when it came to need to actually make hits on stuff. But, from each failure I discovered that which I need to work on. I believe that learning may have occurred. ;-)

Here's what I've discerned, at least with my own body / brain. The sequence of how I achieve the "only left eye open" is important for individual-specific reasons. In other words, each person may have to determine an order in which to begin and end muscular movements. Basically the muscle "machine code" that's required to achieve the biological reality. I can imagine that this might be different for just about everyone, and it's firmly among that family of techniques that needs to be mastered on one's own. For me, this means starting with both eyes shut, then opening only the left eye from there. My brain won't let me just shut my right eye (from both eyes open) by itself. At least, not in a "serviceable" fashion. I had to think of a workaround, and it turns out that the sequence in which you use your muscles / brain can be the difference between getting it or not. YMMV, obviously.

I had an AK buffer in my gun the first day, not the next. Had a couple malfunctions where a lack of carrier velocity was a likely culprit. I would only use them if you are shooting casually and just trying to prevent wear or whatever. Leave them at home for a serious class. Trust me, you don't want to have a malfunction that's unnecessary. Why risk it for zero real payoff?

Pistols…. I used a G19. Almost used my new-to-me 1911, which is NOT a platform I'm very familiar with. Decided against using a basically untested primary (built my rifle myself) along with a shaky understanding and unvetted secondary. I was already a recipe for fail as it was, so the 1911 was put back in favor of the Glock. It was the right choice. In my experience, it was far wiser to go with the simpler and more Homer Simpson-proof pistol. Being even somewhat unfamiliar with my 1911 could have been a safety issue under stress. I am glad I didn't try to use it.

Lastly, DON'T bring a Serpa holster. They're PNG status. LAV informed me that they are not welcome in his courses. Of course, I had one of those too. Ran out of cash before I could get a better holster. Thought I might get away with it. Nope. ;)

-Sfx

BSHNT2015
08-25-11, 19:51
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1423.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1525.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1766.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2087.jpg

Some pics I took at the class.

ChocLab
08-26-11, 16:26
.....

sdfmacross2
08-26-11, 20:29
Really detailed and thought out AAR. I heard that battlecomp was out there with the AKBC and prototype for the 5.45x39 battlecomp. Did you have experience with it and what was your thoughts compared to the current brake for the AK 74

Kisara
08-26-11, 23:33
http://i51.tinypic.com/16llds8.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/4rsxad.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/sgjyhe.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/54ewb9.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/dw839i.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2rysu35.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/x0zg9l.jpg

Ed L.
08-27-11, 19:33
Rear peep sights like the Krebs and the Mojo are a waste of money. It's just a bad idea. For the record, I admit I was one of only a couple that showed up with one of these sights on their gun. LAV stated his case on it, explained why it was an inferior setup with some rock-solid logic, and it turned out to be true for me as well. Shocker, huh? I shot better with the stock notch rear, to which I swapped my Mojo on TD2 at lunch. Bye bye rear peep sights....


Does this include Peep sights that are mounted on a rail that goes over the dust cover that puts the rear sight in the same relative position as a rear peep sight on other firearms?

I can see the problems with the mojo rear sight trying to replace the AK's normal rear sight with a peep sight, since the sight is positioned too far from the eyes.

thanks

Peshawar
08-27-11, 19:51
Does this include Peep sights that are mounted on a rail that goes over the dust cover that puts the rear sight in the same relative position as a rear peep sight on other firearms?

I can see the problems with the mojo rear sight trying to replace the AK's normal rear sight with a peep sight, since the sight is positioned too far from the eyes.

thanks

Your logic seems sound, to me at least. I imagine it might make a lot of difference having the rear peep in close proximity to the eye, like an AR. Or lots of other rifles, for that matter. It obviously works, or it wouldn't be the setup so many rifles have. :D

I think you're probably dead on with the idea that it's the added distance that sort "breaks" the mechanism that works so well for other guns. It would appear that aperture rear sights need to be placed close to the eye to remain viable for "tactical" shooting. When they're too far away, it gets to squirmy to get a good sight picture quickly. They're ok for killing paper, but they're just NOT as fast as the rear notch sights. I'm done with them.

Hope that helps, but it sounds like you've already figured out the correct answer.

TOrrock
08-27-11, 20:02
Glad you guys got to experience the LAV out in Cali.

Sounds like a great class. Well done AAR.

Ed L.
08-27-11, 20:24
Just so I am clear:help:, are the peep sights that Larry & classmembers have issues with are the ones that replace the regular AK rear sight?

thanks

Peshawar
08-27-11, 20:24
Just so I am clear:help:, are the peep sights that Larry & classmembers have issues with are the ones that replace the regular AK rear sight?

thanks

Yes. :)

Ed L.
08-27-11, 21:05
Ah, thanks.

Sometimes I confuse myself.

I always get a lot out of well written AARs.

Great AAR, btw.

sdfmacross2
08-27-11, 21:15
Great AAR. I think the only peep sight that would work with the AK platform would be the one that you get when you buy the Texas Weapon Systems Dog Leg. That is close to the eye like the AR platform. But not good for CQB. The AK sights are really good for CQB but terrible for long range. But the AK is still good out to 200 yards. Still gets the job done.

ChocLab
08-28-11, 00:11
.....

TOrrock
08-28-11, 09:50
Thanks also for showing me the reinforcement on the dustcover for the rear mounted peep sights on the Galil. Wonder why no one sells a reinforced sight top cover for that for the AK?

Expense, and the fact that Valmet and IMI designed their weapons to have a very rigid dust cover, with gas tubes that slide out from the rear, putting pressure against the dust cover.

Trying to do that with a standard AK variant has very mixed results.

There are guys that have welded HK diopter rear sights on the rear of dust covers, but I don't think they hold zero very well.

BSHNT2015
08-28-11, 18:41
Mag change by Mr Vickers,

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1766.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1767.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1768.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1769.jpg

BSHNT2015
08-28-11, 18:46
Trigger control

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1488.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1543.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1506.jpg

AK with RDS

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1606.jpg

BSHNT2015
08-28-11, 18:51
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1811.jpg

Note muzzle flash from AK without a muzzle break or comp

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2257.jpg

Plenty of ammo, bring it on......:)

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2003.jpg

AK with a BCE AKBC

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2319.jpg

Two other variations of the AK, Galil and Valmet in 556/223, seen at the class

BSHNT2015
08-28-11, 21:48
Some additional pics


http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1876.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1884.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1696.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2241.jpg

BSHNT2015
08-28-11, 21:50
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1616.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2249.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1791.jpg

Note setup of AK for 3 gun

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2226.jpg

BSHNT2015
08-28-11, 21:52
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1533.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2228.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_2222.jpg

Got tools for AK?

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Larry%20Vickers%20AK%20class%20Chino%20CA%202011/IMG_1859.jpg

Transition to pistol/Glock

ChocLab
08-28-11, 22:50
Thanks for the extra pics!

If those were your Galil and Valmet, great collection!

jumpthestack
08-28-11, 23:42
Did he cover tactical reloads? I haven't seen any technique that seems workable for an AK other than 'take the old mag out, stow it, then put the new mag in'. With an AR or pistol you can have the new mag in hand while taking out the old one, but my hand doesn't seem big enough to hold 2 ak mags and work the mag release at the same time.

sdfmacross2
08-29-11, 07:45
Thanks for all the pics. Nice quality. Man I wish I was there.

BSHNT2015
08-29-11, 09:55
Mr Vickers covered reloads for the AK, if you note the series of pics shown, you can see Mr Vickers using a spare mag to hit the mag release lever, the mag is dropped, the rifle is canted slightly inward, 45 degree angle so you can assist the new mag reload, the AK mag is tilted/rocked upward and locked into place.

Mr Vickers then rotates the AK to bolt side up to rack the new round into chamber, he is also looking for misfeeds and other blockage. After new round is chambered, rifle is shoulder and ready to fire. Mr Vickers speed on this reload technique was very fast and practiced.

Other methods were shown including where the shooter keeps the rifle on the shoulder and the above method was used. Traditional reload methods from the prone and kneeling were discuss.

ChocLab
08-29-11, 10:18
.....

ChocLab
08-29-11, 10:23
.....

jsbsmarine
09-08-11, 00:57
Good meeting a lot of you, and thanks for the pics guys!

ChocLab
09-08-11, 10:12
Thank you. I almost forgot about that one, that is where he used this right hand to keep the bolt to the rear and the rifle in the shoulder, use the new mag to remove the existing, then let the bolt fly forward to chamber the round.

If I recall, he said although very fast it would not be practical from awkward positions.

I forgot I had found this video that demonstrates the basics of the technique better that I described in the above post. It appears to be made by US soldiers with an Iraq soldier. Very similar to what Mr. Vickers showed us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZwkv_NUmU

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:23
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_1880.jpg
Class photo

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3299.jpg
US Palms were will presented at the LAV AK shoot, besides giving away a lot of class swag, US Palm gears were a popular accessories for many of the class attendees. LAV even mentioned the US Palm AK grip, rail system and the AK extended safety are three of his favorites.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3318.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3336.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3341.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_0285.jpg

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:24
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_0315.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_1215.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_2280.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_2399.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3093.jpg
LAV going over some of the difference between a Valmet, Galil and std AK.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3444.jpg

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:24
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3513.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_3745.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_4096.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_8841.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_8859.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_8881.jpg

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:24
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_9087.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_9691.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/huge/IMG_9337.jpg
LAV discussing the finer points of properly reloading an AK.


Big thanks to Shin Tanaka for the great photos, we will have more photos to come as we process the batch of 3000 pics. thanks for being patient.

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:25
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0580.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0581.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0584.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0593.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0608.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0630.jpg

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:26
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0650.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0661.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0662.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0663.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0006.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_0915.jpg

SMGLee
09-09-11, 16:26
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_1379.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_1381.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_1384.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_1386.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_1388.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/gg/large/IMG_1392.jpg

ChocLab
09-09-11, 21:08
Great pics. Thanks for posting!