Fail Zero BCG vs Fail Zero Extreme Duty Kit

[sdfmacross2]

Is their a real difference between the two? Or is the Extreme duty kit overkill and I will do fine with just getting the BCG? I was contemplating a build around the extreme duty kit (probably cuz carbon will powder itself through the magwell) but now I'm thinking if getting the Fail Zero BCG will do me fine.

[justin_247]

I think the real question is whether you need a FailZero BCG at all. Are you going somewhere in which you're not going to have the opportunity to lube your gun every once in a while?

[sdfmacross2]

I will be attending Tactical Response Way of the Rifle 5 day course and be shooting close to 4k rounds. I will be bringing my Rifly Dynamics AK as my backup instead of my main rifle for this time.

[skullworks]

Buy lube instead.

[sdfmacross2]

May I ask if you've put your rifle through that much work and test the reliability of your weapon. I'm pretty sure that a rifle that goes through that course with no hickups is a rifle ready for anything. And I'm pretty sure that the operator will be more and ready.

[MistWolf]

I have a Fail Zero carrier. The coating is not necessary to good functioning. Carbon still sticks to it

[ARPATRIOT]

I have a Fail Zero carrier. The coating is not necessary to good functioning. Carbon still sticks to it

Do you lube,or run it dry?

[sdfmacross2]

Yes I do lube but I'm willing to pay for extra reliability. What happens if you don't get the chance to lube. A rifle that isn't ready for everything isn't a rifle to me. Anyways. What I'm asking is if getting the extreme duty kit is overkill, compared to just getting the BCG? I'm hoping that people who answer are people who also attend courses. I'm not saying everybody but I'm starting to feel that some, not all, spend more time giving advice then actually experiencing it. Does anybody here have any direct experience with the extreme duty kit and the basic kit? If they did, can you please state differences and your personnel opinion, on whether the extreme duty kit is overkill and getting the BCG will be fine, or vice versa.

[MistWolf]

Do you lube,or run it dry?

I lube it. My rifle hasn't been put through any carbine classes, but each shooting session has consisted of several hundred rounds to test reliability. I don't religiously clean it between sessions although when I get home, I'll take a rag & wipe things down and lightly lube it. We have run this rifle side by side with standard finish BCGs and they had no trouble keeping up and in one case, the standard finish BCG was run dry. The standard BCG experienced no malfunctions even with close to a thousand rounds run through it in a short time. Barrel was hot enough to burn bare skin. All ammo was Federal bulk.

The bolt came with my Lothar Walther barrel and the hammer with the SSA-E FCG. The carrier was purchased as a stripped unit from Brownell's. I haven't run the full monty Fail Zero, but I saw no disadvantage with running my setup. I cannot see any advantage to running FZ Extreme Duty in my rifle compared to what I have now

[Dave_M]

Considering the round counts between cleanings (with no lube) and the conditions my rifle is run in (I have just the BCG), I don't think the, 'extreme duty' upgrade is going to give you much better performance.

[oef24]

I believe the NB coating will give you some extra time if you cannot lube when necessary. Carbon will build up but it will be easier to clean. It comes down to spending that extra cash. There is no change in the manual of arms and you can save your factory BCG as a back-up. JMHO.

O

[boomhower]

My vote is for the basic kit. It is what's need to keep the rifle running. I love mine and will have one in every other AR I build. The extreme kit over the top though I can some benefit. You rate on return is getting extremely slim at this point.

[JoshNC]

I will echo the sentiment of many above. I personally don't see the need to spend extra money on these new bolt group coatings. Even on uppers that have had high volume fullauto suppressed use (1k rounds in over the course of a day), I still pull the bolt group, wipe it down with a paper towel, apply lube, and reassemble. Carbon/fouling still wipes off with ease. I see these coatings as a way to spend more money on a solution in search of a problem for 99% of shooters.

I would agree that your money would be better spent on lube.

[wolf_walker]

Wonder if the uppers wear more with these super hard BCG's?

I have one, it was cheap, I don't see a down, several likely up's.

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[DOA]

I will be attending Tactical Response Way of the Rifle 5 day course and be shooting close to 4k rounds. I will be bringing my Rifly Dynamics AK as my backup instead of my main rifle for this time.

Since your taking a 5 day course and not just a one day course, you will have time to clean your weapon properly. Therefore, for me the cost difference would not justify the "extreme" kit. Maybe extra lube instead.

[GermanSynergy]

I own and like FZ products, but these guys are spot on. It only takes a few seconds of your life to lube your carbine, something that you can do after class, or at lunch.

[Meplat]

It's really unfortunate that threads like these keep turning up. Not to be rude to the OP in any way, and I mean no offense, but these threads seem to show up on a daily basis for no reason. Almost daily now we see threads about which wonder material coating your AR needs to be an "extreme" or "hardcore" "duty" gun, or how you need a piston AR so your gas block doesn't gunk up (still trying to figure that one out :confused: ) and you can shoot your "extreme, hardcore, no BS duty gun" to it's limits.
Obviously DI is just the bottom of the barrel of standards for ARs, and if you truly want a hardcore duty AR that you can shoot millions of rounds with on a desert made of lava on Jupiter, you need a special coating of Merlin's jizz on your BCG and an extreme hardcore piston conversion from a company with the the name "Tactical" in it's name and a Youtube page of videos of them shooting their gun after dropping it into the mud and then shooting a magazine while rolling around to some generic infomercial song for P90X. And don't forget the special buffer system with sand in it that makes your gun quieter so Tangos don't hear you while you're doing recon with your Navy SEAL buddies.

These companies out there are just plain marketing gimmicks. Nothing that's functional or an improvement over standard parts in any way. Every week some new part gets released that's advertised to "fix" the entire "problem" that all DI ARs have and finally make DI work for once, instead of just being a horribly designed system that fails if you look at it wrong. And Chad the ex-Green Beret and astronaut from "Tactical Expertise Solutions" will sell it to you. It's all a gimmick that these mediocre companies keep purporting over and over again to make people think that something is wrong with their gun. It's modern snake oil in every sense of the saying.

Again, I don't mean to be rude, but I think far too many people are falling for the snake oil that is "wonder age" BCG coatings and piston kits, and all the other jazz that keeps going around. People need to put far more faith and trust in their DI AR and ignore the lies and marketing gimmicks that pop up on a daily basis. Use good components, run it in a good set up with the right buffer, toss an o ring or improved extractor if necessary for your gas system, use good magazines, give it moderate lube every break, and see where it takes you.
I'm more than confident that doing that is going to be far more beneficial to improving anyone's skills as a shooter than building the "ultimate carbine" with all of Chad's parts.
Sorry for the rant.

[wolf_walker]

That synthetic oil for engines is snakeoil too, been running motors for ages on regular ole dino stuff.
It's all big oil trying to milk you. Lol

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[thehun]

Agreed...i'll take a good lube job any day over wonder coatings.

If you want wonder coating type performance...I love my frog lube....when its not hot...it soaks back into the metal....then when you start firing it lubes all the parts again....its amazing...but thats the lube i use...and its my "wonder" coating

[bphorseguy]

It's really unfortunate that threads like these keep turning up. Not to be rude to the OP in any way, and I mean no offense, but these threads seem to show up on a daily basis for no reason. Almost daily now we see threads about which wonder material coating your AR needs to be an "extreme" or "hardcore" "duty" gun, or how you need a piston AR so your gas block doesn't gunk up (still trying to figure that one out :confused: ) and you can shoot your "extreme, hardcore, no BS duty gun" to it's limits.
Obviously DI is just the bottom of the barrel of standards for ARs, and if you truly want a hardcore duty AR that you can shoot millions of rounds with on a desert made of lava on Jupiter, you need a special coating of Merlin's jizz on your BCG and an extreme hardcore piston conversion from a company with the the name "Tactical" in it's name and a Youtube page of videos of them shooting their gun after dropping it into the mud and then shooting a magazine while rolling around to some generic infomercial song for P90X. And don't forget the special buffer system with sand in it that makes your gun quieter so Tangos don't hear you while you're doing recon with your Navy SEAL buddies.

These companies out there are just plain marketing gimmicks. Nothing that's functional or an improvement over standard parts in any way. Every week some new part gets released that's advertised to "fix" the entire "problem" that all DI ARs have and finally make DI work for once, instead of just being a horribly designed system that fails if you look at it wrong. And Chad the ex-Green Beret and astronaut from "Tactical Expertise Solutions" will sell it to you. It's all a gimmick that these mediocre companies keep purporting over and over again to make people think that something is wrong with their gun. It's modern snake oil in every sense of the saying.

Again, I don't mean to be rude, but I think far too many people are falling for the snake oil that is "wonder age" BCG coatings and piston kits, and all the other jazz that keeps going around. People need to put far more faith and trust in their DI AR and ignore the lies and marketing gimmicks that pop up on a daily basis. Use good components, run it in a good set up with the right buffer, toss an o ring or improved extractor if necessary for your gas system, use good magazines, give it moderate lube every break, and see where it takes you.
I'm more than confident that doing that is going to be far more beneficial to improving anyone's skills as a shooter than building the "ultimate carbine" with all of Chad's parts.
Sorry for the rant.

+1 I couldn't have said it better!

[wolf_walker]

One could make a good argument that newer/better types of lube are no different than coatings. Some people are so resistant to new ideas, most peculiar. There are people that will swear before god and there mothers that none of the newer lube are any better than whatever they became accustomed too decades ago. It's a good thing homsap lifespans are so relativly short, we would never get anywhere.

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[sdfmacross2]

Like I posted before, it would suffice my question if people who attended courses would answer or put their rifle through a Tactical Response Course. I'm really starting to think there's a lot of bench test queens here. Anyways only one person answered my question properly who had the credentials that I stated before. Thank you.

[wolf_walker]

Anyone honest could have told you the vast majority of us are a couple hundred round a month types, if we are lucky. I wish it wasn't so as I love to shoot myself, anything, anytime, but time and budget are what they are. If you want better odds of real experience with failzero stuff try there industry forum on the other site, is what I would do personally.

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[sdfmacross2]

At least you admit it. Admirable. But I still think that's a piss ass excuse to not train. I'm a 9 year vet, single father of three, full time job, full time school and I still find time to shoot 2-3k a month and attend maybe 1-2 courses a year. I will take the advice of others and use the factory BCG as backup. I plan on purchasing a BCM upper and lower, middy with battlecomp and fail zero BCG. If that doesn't make it through a 5 day tactical response course then I'm pretty sure my Rifly Dynamics AK will.

[wolf_walker]

Frankly 1k a month would eat up one of my other hobies budget, too many irons in the fire, but life is short. Post how your class goes with it and the perticulars so we can do some vicarious living through you. If you are inclined run it dry with the FZ BCG and see how it does.

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[sdfmacross2]

And where did I state that I was gonna run it dry. Anyways you can give other excuses for not training. Don't complain when the person who enters you're house is a better fighter than you.

[Dave_M]

If you are inclined run it dry with the FZ BCG and see how it does.

It'll run just fine (provided everything else on your carbine is good to go). I routinely go over 2k rounds between cleanings with zero lube. I've been a broken record about FZ though: it's a niche product mostly for those that run suppressed/FA/SBR or some combination thereof (basically the same crowd that would see real benefit from piston systems without the negatives (real or perceived) of said piston systems).

Quite frankly, the reason my doesn't run longer is likely due to my SBR being severely overgassed. Legion has a middy that's done something like 4k with no cleaning or lube. Here's my original thread on the FZ:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45406

Notable that I still run standard BCG's on my, 'fullsize' carbines--as adding lube every 500-600 rounds isn't really a big deal with those systems (nothing eats lube quite like a suppressor).

I would classify it as an, 'aspirational' product. By this, I mean that there really aren't any negatives (other than price) to having a NiB coated BCG (especially now that WMD is doing individual parts again--IIRC $100 to NiB your BCM/Colt/whatever BCG) but that most individuals won't shoot enough nor in configurations to realize the upsides.

[wolf_walker]

And where did I state that I was gonna run it dry. Anyways you can give other excuses for not training. Don't complain when the person who enters you're house is a better fighter than you.

I'm not complaining, or arguing, just giving perspective. All is cool, and I almost never complain, I pass on observations and see where people go with it from time to time. The above post is to the point and accurate fwiw. Enjoy your class.

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[nynco]

I think this might be a moot argument, but if I am not mistaken, extreme duty kit is discontinued.