Defensive habits in your offensive actions

[theblackknight]

This one should prob only be tackled buy the BTDT guys in here.
Video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH5grmELZw4)

One school of thought like I received in military taught us when setting up on a barricade, to always use the "forward" knee to pop out with because if you use your rear knee, you expose your femoral and you are of no use to anyone bleeding out.
(defense)
vs
(offense)
The other school says that your justification is to win the fight and make the other guy worry about bleeding out and the best way to do this is with a solid position and good, fast rounds on target.


An other example would be in someone explaining rifle stance. Some people say you should square you shoulders in order to get the most of your plates.

Shouldnt your real concern be a stance that most effectively allows you to get best results downrange, and that good cover from your plates is just a welcome byproduct of a effective stance, if it is sqaure?


Is there any time in which letting defensive habits in your offensive actions will pay off the majority of the time?

[C4IGrant]

Watching the vid, Mr. Lambs leg is still behind cover.

I think that if you are going to a kneeling position (and giving up your mobility), you are doing so because you have a small window in which to shoot at your enemy OR you are doing offensive room clearing and trying to get two guns around a corner (high/low).

There are two ways to look at your argument. Is the person alone (HD/CCW OR does he have a team with him)? If the person is alone and is trying to clear a room or building, he has all the time in the world. No need to go fast and expose any more than necessary.



C4

[jklaughrey]

Concur with Grant, having done this before when alone or part of 2 man entry.

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[theblackknight]

Sorry Grant, I'm talking military operations. Your with a squad of buddies in a urban area, or could be a farm/courtyard style with mud walls place like in Helmand. You have a straight wall, not a tetris barricade. Your leg might still be exposed but the point is mostly in software. Dose it pay off to think defensively as in putting your well being over closing with and distroying the enemy a majority of the time and in what way?

I don't want to be absolute about anything, but as far as I want to go, me and my bros should always put rounds on target 5 minutes ago over thinking I need to square my plates so I can survive taking rounds to the vest. I'm trying to cross check here with people who have way more experience.

[jklaughrey]

BLK, you are over thinking this. Just rely upon your training and muscle memory, coupled with cognitive thought governed by OODA loop process. And remember, concealment isn't tne same as cover. Be safe.

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[C4IGrant]

Sorry Grant, I'm talking military operations. Your with a squad of buddies in a urban area, or could be a farm/courtyard style with mud walls place like in Helmand. You have a straight wall, not a tetris barricade. Your leg might still be exposed but the point is mostly in software. Dose it pay off to think defensively as in putting your well being over closing with and distroying the enemy a majority of the time and in what way?

I don't want to be absolute about anything, but as far as I want to go, me and my bros should always put rounds on target 5 minutes ago over thinking I need to square my plates so I can survive taking rounds to the vest. I'm trying to cross check here with people who have way more experience.


Gotcha. Did not know what groups we were discussing (LE, Civy, Mil).


C4

[theblackknight]

BLK, you are over thinking this. Just rely upon your training and muscle memory, coupled with cognitive thought governed by OODA loop process. And remember, concealment isn't tne same as cover. Be safe.

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Training? I didnt receive much of that and havent yet saved up to go get some myself.

[Preliator]

Background so you can gauge whether my opinion should even mean anything to you: I served in the Marine Corps for 9 years as an infantryman. I fought in the push to Baghdad in 2003, and house to house in Falluja in 04 which was some nasty tough urban combat.

My experience in more open combat in '03 was that moving aggressively to contact payed big dividends, it kept the enemy off balance and allowed us to use our superior communication ability and firepower.

'04 was a different animal, as much as aggresive movement clearing houses may sound good, but I found that we naturally adopted a much more "defensive" posture clearing houses (tucking in tight behind 'cover', using frags before entering many rooms, pulling out of contested houses and dropping something heavy on the house etc...). Getting shot sucks, and after you have watched a few buds get hit it really makes you slow down a bit.

I think that there is a time and place for both, and I think (my opinion) most gunfighters will naturally adopt to the kind of combat they are in. Hopefully it doesn't kill you first.

[rickp]

Front knee up or down, or visa versa is a matter of preference IMO. It's more about the use proper use of cover. You can have either knee up or down and work as long as it's behind cover. If either knee whether up or not is not behind cover it can just as easily get shot off.
VTAC uses front knee up, Magpul uses back knee up, are either wrong no. They're both using cover properly, that's the key.

As for the shoulders and plates, I agree you need to be squared off to the target, maximize your gear and the protection it provides. If you get shot under the arm because you were bladed then your no longer combat effective.

All your questions are part of a bigger picture, being well trained, having the proper knowledge of what works for YOU and how to put ALL of it together so you can maintaining that combat aggressiveness and effectiveness.

Good luck.

[Ed L.]

Watching the vid, Mr. Lambs leg is still behind cover.

Looking at the .34 second mark, it looks like Mr. Lamb's right leg and knee is somewhat exposed. It could be the angle of the video.

I played around with it dry in my house, and it is impossible to engage the target while keeping all of your body behind cover. Mr. Lamb's position seems to offer better stability, and using the non-shooting side leg knee up amd it seemed to result in more of my upper body leaning out from behind cover.

Now I am far from Mr. Lamb in level of skill, knowledge, & experience, so I could be quite wrong in many regards.

[theblackknight]

Background so you can gauge whether my opinion should even mean anything to you: I served in the Marine Corps for 9 years as an infantryman. I fought in the push to Baghdad in 2003, and house to house in Falluja in 04 which was some nasty tough urban combat.

My experience in more open combat in '03 was that moving aggressively to contact payed big dividends, it kept the enemy off balance and allowed us to use our superior communication ability and firepower.

'04 was a different animal, as much as aggresive movement clearing houses may sound good, but I found that we naturally adopted a much more "defensive" posture clearing houses (tucking in tight behind 'cover', using frags before entering many rooms, pulling out of contested houses and dropping something heavy on the house etc...). Getting shot sucks, and after you have watched a few buds get hit it really makes you slow down a bit.

I think that there is a time and place for both, and I think (my opinion) most gunfighters will naturally adopt to the kind of combat they are in. Hopefully it doesn't kill you first.

What? You mean I cant be absolute?:D

Thanks guys

[Jim D]

Good thread.

I subscribe to responding with overwhelming violence, and doing whatever you need to do to be the most lethal warrior possible.

I'm interested to hear where this thread goes, though.

[Surf]

As for the knee position, I teach and use both and they can be situationally dependent as well as a preference thing for some. For myself I use what works in the moment and I don't get tied down by not knowing alternative methods and what may or may not work in different situations. Some say that more options creates delay in response as you try to decide which technique to use (Hicks Law). I personally like options, but train to a proficiency where options become an advantage and time to decide is all but eliminated. I will say that the method seen by Kyle Lamb should be done with a body placement where there is minimal exposure and definitely nowhere near femoral exposure. You can do this method where you keep the primary elbow pointed almost straight down over the end of the knee. This allows for minimal exposure, but you have the added mobility benefit.

As for a squared body position or any "absolute" types of discussions, I see a definite trend going on with this type of internet discussion. It should be considered a "default" or "ideal" stance when the situation allows for it. In other words, under "ideal" conditions, this is what I wish to default to. In reality we are rarely under ideal conditions, but correct and proper repetition of training on the "default" or "ideal" situations, allows us to learn and adopt our own unique styles that allows us to use improvised positions more effectively. Major league baseball players still practice the same base fundamentals and warm up with them. They did not get to their position in life by ignoring "base" or "default" fundamentals that allowed them to make those major league diving plays.

While I have not been in sustained combat situations, I have been around flying bullets. Also with training and other real world situations, I am a firm believer that there is a definite time and place to press the fight. There is a lot to be said about keeping your opponent off guard by making them react to your moves as opposed to you reacting to theirs. There are definitely times where a good offense is your best defense. Knowing when, where and how is another story.

[Ironman8]

Not mil myself, but there are two schools of thought on this (as far as solo tactics go). One is to pop out and "own" your corner while firing on the enemy and the other is to lean out utilizing as much cover as possible while firing at the enemy. Each has their pros and cons and I believe that there is a time and place to utilize each one, so it wouldn't hurt to know both.

The school that says to "own" the corner will usually teach to pop out with the knee up that is on the side of the cover that you are popping from (ex. if you are popping out of the right side of cover, then you have the right knee up; left side, left knee up). They teach to have that knee up because if you are hit, then you will (more than likely) fall back behind cover and not out into the line of fire. Yes, this will expose more of your body than the "lean" out method, but their point is, how often do you shoot leaning? (same thing with shooting "weak side"). Its not really a natural body position, and you may not practice it enough to be as efficient at making hits compared to a more natural body position.

The other school says to stay behind as much cover as possible. Pretty self explanatory, but you will lean out basically only exposing your head and part of your arm. I have found that if you are in shape, and have a strong core, then you will fare better with this method than those who are not in shape. You will have better balance and will probably make better hits if you have a strong enough core to support yourself.

Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with EVERYTHING that I have been taught, but it would be good to know both. I think one is a little more aggressive (or offensive) than the other, and should be used accordingly. You can even use both together with a high "lean and peek", get back behind cover, then pop out low and "own" it. Either one needs to be practiced.

As a side note, Mr. Lamb likes to use his cover as support for his rifle, I personally think that is fine for longer shots, but for close in, I would rather be a few feet off of cover...I found it interesting he was so close to be honest.

[Low Drag]

My .02......

Rule # 1 in a gun fight is not "have a gun", it is don't get shot.

That means if you have cover use it effectively. Every situation is different and in a combat environment a threat can come from any direction, so I'll give one of those answers that sounds like a politician. "It depends".

Given a choice I would lean hard in the direction of making an effective shot quickly because that's the fastest way to stop the bullets coming in my direction. So, I'd try to use my rear knee if it would get me more support for the shot. After all I have to expose my head to take a shot.

[Low Drag]

Background so you can gauge whether my opinion should even mean anything to you: I served in the Marine Corps for 9 years as an infantryman. I fought in the push to Baghdad in 2003, and house to house in Falluja in 04 which was some nasty tough urban combat.

My experience in more open combat in '03 was that moving aggressively to contact payed big dividends, it kept the enemy off balance and allowed us to use our superior communication ability and firepower.

'04 was a different animal, as much as aggresive movement clearing houses may sound good, but I found that we naturally adopted a much more "defensive" posture clearing houses (tucking in tight behind 'cover', using frags before entering many rooms, pulling out of contested houses and dropping something heavy on the house etc...). Getting shot sucks, and after you have watched a few buds get hit it really makes you slow down a bit.

I think that there is a time and place for both, and I think (my opinion) most gunfighters will naturally adopt to the kind of combat they are in. Hopefully it doesn't kill you first.

Well stated.
The situation you're in dictates the techniques/tactics you can/should use. This is the #1 reason you need to work your weapon handling skills to the point you don't need to think about it. Your focus needs to be on the environment when you're getting shot at so you can select the best technique given your situation.

[mpd046]

Lamb explains in his book that one reason he utilizes this technique is that if you get bumped by a partner or team member you won't get shoved from behind cover (Stay in the Fight pg 344). He uses this technique for both pistol and rifle.

Matt

[Jim D]

My .02......

Rule # 1 in a gun fight is not "have a gun", it is don't get shot.

That means if you have cover use it effectively. Every situation is different and in a combat environment a threat can come from any direction, so I'll give one of those answers that sounds like a politician. "It depends".

Given a choice I would lean hard in the direction of making an effective shot quickly because that's the fastest way to stop the bullets coming in my direction. So, I'd try to use my rear knee if it would get me more support for the shot. After all I have to expose my head to take a shot.

I know many other people who concern themselves more with winning than with not getting shot.