Considering a caliber change, maybe even a platform change (from M&P Pro9)

[xanderzuk]

So I currently have a Smith & Wesson M&P Pro 5" 9mm as my go to, do all pistol. However, recently I've been considering a caliber change to .40 or .45, and possibly even a platform change (I will address reasons why below). I'd love to hear your suggestions and opinions.

First, let me start with what I like about the M&P Pro 5" 9mm:

-Extremely ergonomic, fits my hand like a glove, great point-ability.
-Extremely accurate
-Great trigger (the best of the plastic fantastic that I've felt)
-Great sights and sight radius
-High reliability
-High quality
-Cheap(er) ammunition

Cons for M&P Pro 5" 9mm:

-Relatively expensive magazines

-Poor after market support on holsters. I can't seem to find an off the rack holster that covers the entire slide (doesn't leave muzzle protruding), or one that is ready for a weapon light

-**Hypothetically** not as much power as alternative calibers

-Difficult to detail strip, extractor pin is installed with 67 trillion ton press, and you have to remove the rear sight to remove and clean the firing pin safety plunger (I would love to meet the person that came up with this)

Ok, so my reasons for considering a caliber change:

-Again, this is my do all pistol: self defense, IDPA and other matches, side arm while hog hunting.

-Self defense: I really don't want to start a pissing match, I just don't think .40 or .45 is going to limit defensive capability

-Matches: There have been times with the 9mm that I've made solid hits on steel, and had to follow up to knock it over

-Hogs: If for some reason my primary goes down, or I want to dispatch an immobilized hog, it'd be nice to have a little extra power. Likewise, most of our hunting is at night, I'd like to have a holster that has a weapon light capability

I briefly thought about going to a Glock, as their after market support is huge, they're easy to detail strip, and available in alternative calibers. The downside for me is, not as ergonomic, and recent late Gen 3&4 issue's make me nervous.

I'm also considering going to the standard 4.25" M&P line as they seem to have more after market support with holsters etc., maybe there's something else entirely you think I should consider. Perhaps you also think I should quit bitching, either way let me know!

SOOO sorry for the long post, please let me know what you think!

[DocGKR]

"First, let me start with what I like about the M&P Pro 5" 9mm:

-Extremely ergonomic, fits my hand like a glove, great point-ability.
-Extremely accurate
-Great trigger (the best of the plastic fantastic that I've felt)
-Great sights and sight radius
-High reliability
-High quality
-Cheap(er) ammunition"

Sounds like the perfect pistol nirvana; why on earth would you want to go away from all those positive features????


"-Relatively expensive magazines

-Poor after market support on holsters. I can't seem to find an off the rack holster that covers the entire slide (doesn't leave muzzle protruding), or one that is ready for a weapon light

-**Hypothetically** not as much power as alternative calibers

-Difficult to detail strip, extractor pin is installed with 67 trillion ton press, and you have to remove the rear sight to remove and clean the firing pin safety plunger (I would love to meet the person that came up with this)"

How many magazines do you need? I got 12 for my M&P45 and found that was more than adequate--even found a good sale price for them.

Get a custom holster--no big deal.

I am an M&P armorer and find them not much harder to work on than Glocks--certainly far easier than Beretta, HK, Sig, etc...

If you have to move them, the sights are easy enough to move and simple to put back in place if you use a good witness mark. Of course, how often do you need to do that? I can't say I clean the firing pin safety plunger too often--maybe every 20,000 rounds or so. The new pistols use a much easier extractor pin--you can send it back to S&W and they can replace your current pressed in pin with a roll-pin or send it to Apex for one of their outstanding extractors--of course, how often do you actually need to replace the extractor? I have yet to change one on an M&P.

It sounds like you should consider a M&P9fs or M&P9c to augment your current pistol.

[goodoleboy]

If you are dead-set to change from a 9mm to something with a little more umph, I would go with a .40 cal. If you go with the .45, you are going to have considerable sacrifice in the mag capacity with only maginally more power than the .40 (50 fps or so with identical bullet weights).

Realistically, the .40 is not a huge leap from 9mm+P or +P+ loads, and 9mm is damn cheap compared to .40. But, if you are set on an upgrade, I wouldn't consider anything other than a .40. You could get a 10mm, but the ammo prices are unbelievable, same with .357 sig. Always remember this, no defensive handgun cartridge is a "man stopper." You are going to have to have quick follow-up capabilities for any defensive handgun round.

As far as a platform change, I would consider a Glock, lots of holster options, even with lights.

[xanderzuk]

How many magazines do you need? I got 12 for my M&P45 and found that was more than adequate--even found a good sale price for them.

I currently only have the two that came with it from the factory, $40 x 10 = $400, getting close to the cost of another gun (of course I find most magazines to be overpriced to begin with).



Get a custom holster--no big deal.

Point taken, who do you recommend?



If you have to move them, the sights are easy enough to move and simple to put back in place if you use a good witness mark.

Good idea, I honestly didn't think of that. I admit I have no experience installing or removing pistol sights, what tools will I need (I wonder how much more this will set me back...)



Of course, how often do you need to do that?


I'm a clean freak, I'm sorry. I've been trying to become dirtier, but one could have worse habits I suppose..



how often do you actually need to replace the extractor? I have yet to change one on an M&P.


I don't want to replace it, I JUST WANT TO CLEAN!! IT'S SO DIRTY IN THERE!!

[xanderzuk]

If you are dead-set to change from a 9mm to something with a little more umph, I would go with a .40 cal. If you go with the .45, you are going to have considerable sacrifice in the mag capacity with only maginally more power than the .40 (50 fps or so with identical bullet weights).

I think this is an excellent point. In the event that I did make a caliber change, I was leaning towards .40 to begin with, simply because of capacity.



Realistically, the .40 is not a huge leap from 9mm+P or +P+ loads, and 9mm is damn cheap compared to .40.

Is it completely safe to cycle these through my current platform? If so at what frequency, and how should I change my maintenance, if at all?

[KhanRad]

The road to contentment is filled with blood, tears, and lost fortunes.

[czydj]

Unless you stay in 9mm, the cost difference in .40 or .45 cal practice ammo will add up quick. IMHO, it's much cheaper to buy a few more mags, even if you do it one or two at a time. Much less painful that way!

[1_click_off]

I recommend a Raven.

I carry a P30 9mm with a TLR-2s daily with it. You can wear it IWB or OWB pending attachment options you get.

Be prepared to wait if you order it....... Mine was a 6 month wait.

Good thing is they update the order list weekly on this site so you can track it.

If you go Glock 40, you might be able to get away with a 9mm barrel/mag and shoot your current stock of 9mm through it. I have been told the extractor will still eject the 9mm casings when doing this, but I would research it more.

[G-lock]

Mags:

44mag.com
Botach(I know)
www.gregcotellc.com
GRTactical

Can be had for 25 or so...

Holsters:
Raven, NTAC and various other will build what you want/need but prepared to wait.

Site tool:
Brownells
Midway
Speed Shooters Specialities(sic)
About 120 or so.

Clean it you say, lube it and keep shooting...

+P's are fine, +P+ I'd limit.

No need to upgrade, but if you want to give it away, I'll send my FFL info(J/K)....

[Leonidas77]

The only suggestion I have is to change the caliber.

People will argue endlessly about how gelatin tests prove 9mm is just as or nearly as effective as .45. But the cold hard truth is that a .45 will always make a bigger hole.

I too have shot steel with a 9mm and been disappointed when the steel would not fall. I changed caliber and never had the problem again.

[amac]

I don't think there is one pistol that can "do all". Personally, I like a hi cap 9mm for competition, like your M&P pro. I have a M&P 9, 4.25. The recoil is easy to manage for follow up shots. If the steel doesn't fall, try for better hits. :eek:

For carry, something smaller like the M&P 9c or G19 is more easily concealed - less weight, smaller patterning. I just purchased the Glock 19 - feels like cheating. What's more, the 9mm recoil will/should be easier to manage vs a .40 or .45.

For home defense, I go to my .45 (or my shotty). Personally, a good 1911 should be in every gun owners home. ;). They can now be had with integrated rail for light placement.

For things like hog hunting, go big! Get a revolver in 44mag or 357. You shouldn't need that many rounds.

If I were in your shoes, I'd look for a .45 next. It will fill more needs.

Just my thoughts, FWIW.

[RagweedZulu]

I'm a big fan of the .40 and .45 for CCW. Of course, practice ammo is more expensive, but I've made the decision to work around that and I do. To me it's worth having the larger caliber. To paraphrase Leonidas above, you hope a 9mm will expand to become effective. If a .45 doesn't expand, it's still almost half an inch wide! That's a serious, proven round. No bullet is perfect, but to protect MY wife and daughters, I carry a .40 minimum. The capacity is almost as good as a 9mm and carrying a hi-cap reload solves the problem anyway. Ammo cost more, but i just have to suck it up. I don't golf, go to strip clubs or snort coke, so there's a few dollars of play money laying around for training ammo.

YOU gotta make the decision. Start with a firm choice on caliber first, then figure out what platform you're going to carry it in.

[Ironman8]

Get a M&P9 FS with night sites and BAM you have two more mags as well!...kill two birds with one stone :p I think its a good idea to have a couple of the same kind of pistol anyway (especially if you like it so much). I just picked up my second FS with night sites from Grant for a pretty decent price. Use the Pro for your competitions, and the FS for carry as well as hunting (I personally have no problem concealing a FS even here in TX where I'm usually wearing light T-shirts). Also, they should be consistent enough between the two that shooting the FS won't hurt your competition training and vice versa.

[Ian111]

The only suggestion I have is to change the caliber.

People will argue endlessly about how gelatin tests prove 9mm is just as or nearly as effective as .45. But the cold hard truth is that a .45 will always make a bigger hole.

I too have shot steel with a 9mm and been disappointed when the steel would not fall. I changed caliber and never had the problem again.


Well, gee. If that's all it came down to what the heck do we need DocGKR to explain ballistics and real life shootings to us. You had the answer all along. So a .45 is bigger than 9mm and it knocks down those pesky little steel plates better. Got it. :ph34r:

[RogerinTPA]

Another vote for the M&P9 full size and 9c. Another benefit is the 9c can use the full size mags.

[Airborne12b]

I went with a used G32. I had fallen in love with the performance of .357 Sig, and there is a ton of aftermarket support for Glock. Mags are inexpensive, and I can change out the follower and have 24 round factory mags. Ammo cost is high compared to 9mm, but since I reload training ammo and have 1k pieces of brass, and can use the same bullet in the .357sig that I do for the 9mm it isn't an issue. One thing to consider though its that the .357 is picky about ogives, insufficient straight length and you have setback issues. As for defensive ammo, well all defensive ammo of good quality is pricey.

[tpd223]

Why not keep the 9mm for training and get a .40 or .45 M&P for carry if you want bigger bullets?

Same platform, training on one translates right to the other guns.

[Airborne12b]

Why not keep the 9mm for training and get a .40 or .45 M&P for carry if you want bigger bullets?

Same platform, training on one translates right to the other guns.

You need to practice with your carry caliber.

[iCarbine]

I wouldn't spend $40/mag either, that's why I buy mine at $25 apiece from www.gandrtactical.com. Grant runs a good business and just happens to be a site sponsor, so why not do business with him?

[warpedcamshaft]

I would suspect that in a few years most of your reasons for selling it will no longer be a problem. The M&P series is really taking off fast, and I think it is/will become extremely popular.

1: The magazines may get cheaper as supply increases and demand decreases.

2: More holsters will be released eventually as more M&P's are sold.

As for the caliber:
3: Just get some reputable, high quality, flash suppressed hollow-points. The .40 has some advantages, but I would recommend that you do your own research outside of forums before abandoning the 9mm for something larger.

[C4IGrant]

Cons for M&P Pro 5" 9mm:

Relatively expensive magazines

Really?? We well them for $25. That is pretty good. Go by some HK mags. ;)


-Poor after market support on holsters. I can't seem to find an off the rack holster that covers the entire slide (doesn't leave muzzle protruding), or one that is ready for a weapon light

Again, really?? Ever check out Raven Concealment??


-**Hypothetically** not as much power as alternative calibers

Power? As in "stopping power or Knock Down power?"


-Difficult to detail strip, extractor pin is installed with 67 trillion ton press, and you have to remove the rear sight to remove and clean the firing pin safety plunger (I would love to meet the person that came up with this)

How often do you need to remove the extractor pin? I have been shooting M&P's for a long time and never removed mine.

Again, why do you need to clean the striker block??


I think most of your Cons aren't really "Cons." I think you are looking at different calibers (which is fine). Just remember that all pistol caliber suck, you lose rounds when going to 40 and 45 and it is more expensive to shoot.


C4

[C4IGrant]

I wouldn't spend $40/mag either, that's why I buy mine at $25 apiece from www.gandrtactical.com. Grant runs a good business and just happens to be a site sponsor, so why not do business with him?

Thanks much.



C4

[Mauser KAR98K]

I second G&R for M&P mags. Bought 1 ten round and 3 fourteen round mags last weekend from him. Should arrive sometime tomorrow.

I just got a M&P .45 and I feels like I'm shooting a .40 or 9mm, depending on what reloads I'm running. Very smooth pistol. In summery, I keep you Pro for practice and look for a FS in either .40 or .45.

As for which caliber to choose: are you reloading and what caliber components do you have already? This was the buying point for me when I was deciding to get a .45 or a .40. Since I had a lot of .45 components and the Dilion conversion kit for my 650, I saw changing to another round have been very costly.

[iCarbine]

Thanks much.



C4

You're welcome Grant. You've earned it in my book.

[goodoleboy]

Is it completely safe to cycle these through my current platform? If so at what frequency, and how should I change my maintenance, if at all?[/QUOTE]

I have never owned an M&P, so the safety with the platform should come from someone who has experience with that platform. As far as maintenance is concerned, any time you up chamber pressure there is a trade-off with barrel life and general wear and tear on parts. As with any caliber, I would train some with the ammo you carry, to an extent. I wouldn't make a habit of running super-hot loads through any firearm on a regular basis, due to decreased life of the components of the weapon. But It is equally ill-advised to carry a weapon and ammo combination that you are unfamiliar with.

It would be best for some M&P owners to comment on their experiences with +P and +P+ loads.

[LockenLoad]

on this site it's 9mm rules, they back it up with good data, so almost all these threads are keep the 9mm you have, or get a 9mm Glock of some sort, with the M&P thrown in as well but it's usually Glock.

[Leonidas77]

Well, gee. If that's all it came down to what the heck do we need DocGKR to explain ballistics and real life shootings to us. You had the answer all along. So a .45 is bigger than 9mm and it knocks down those pesky little steel plates better. Got it. :ph34r:

Yeah, I should write a book.

[tpd223]

You need to practice with your carry caliber.

Yeah, I so get that, however, comma....

Going to a high volume training class with the 9mm is just peachy, and means you save significant money on ammo, and in wear and tear on your gun and person.

I've shot enough full house .357s, .40s, .45s, .44s, etc. to now need to use a 9mm for training. Speaking from experience.

Training with a 9mm while also carrying and training some with a .40 is OK

Dude asked about getting a .40, there is no reason at all you can't have both 9 and .40

[Airborne12b]

Yeah, I so get that, however, comma....

Going to a high volume training class with the 9mm is just peachy, and means you save significant money on ammo, and in wear and tear on your gun and person.

I've shot enough full house .357s, .40s, .45s, .44s, etc. to now need to use a 9mm for training. Speaking from experience.

Training with a 9mm while also carrying and training some with a .40 is OK

Dude asked about getting a .40, there is no reason at all you can't have both 9 and .40

Totally agree about the class, if you are going to be burning a case in a weekend you would be well advised to use 9mm, probably even steel case 9mm. I only meant that in your weekly practice range seasons you need to train a bit with your carry gun and caliber, even if only a few mags.

I say this because I know people who bought .22 conversions for their G22/23's and believe that just because the handling is the same that the training is equivelant.

[Nephrology]

Stick with your gun. Buy the other 9mm M&Ps (FS, c variants). Buy a lot more 9. If you are really worried about 9mm, get an M&P .40. Should fit in the same holsters if I am not mistaken.

If you change platforms you will take a serious hit on mags, holsters, accessories etc. Stick to M&Ps and you will save money.

I have long been considering moving to M&Ps because they feel "nice" but I shoot my 9mm glocks damn well. Maybe if I really decide I want a .45 one day I will go with M&Ps as they are slimmer but frankly you're going to lose a lot of money for no reason if you go through with a switch.

[tpd223]

Totally agree about the class, if you are going to be burning a case in a weekend you would be well advised to use 9mm, probably even steel case 9mm. I only meant that in your weekly practice range seasons you need to train a bit with your carry gun and caliber, even if only a few mags.

I say this because I know people who bought .22 conversions for their G22/23's and believe that just because the handling is the same that the training is equivelant.

We are on the same sheet of music.

I hear from people regularly about how you simply must train with your carry load, etc.

If recoil control was everything in pistol practice, then where does this leave dry fire?

[Ironman8]

If recoil control was everything in pistol practice, then where does this leave dry fire?

Dry fire is for drawing from a holster, picking up the front sight, and working trigger manipulation to ensure you are pressing through correctly. It has nothing to do with recoil.

Thats why I don't understand they whole "22 trainer" crowd. Shooting a 22 is nothing like the full size cartriges that you will carry, so it is basically only going to give you what dry fire will give you (while being more expensive) ONLY if you are practicing on the same platform as your carry gun...such as a 22 conversion for a FS Glock. If you are using something for practice like a Walther P22 and carry a full size Glock or M&P, then you are just wasting your time IMO...

[samuse]

I've shot a few hogs with handguns and 9mm does as well as 40 and better than 45 IME.

I like NATO or 124 Gold Dot but I'm sure any good bonded bullet would work.

In 40 all I ever used was 165 truncated flat point (WWB) and it worked well also.

All I ever used in 45 was 230 ball (WWB). It lacks in penetration IME.

The main thing to remember is shot placement. Hogs are tough as hell and they don't seem to mind being shot at as much people.

[xanderzuk]

Sorry to avoid my own thread, I've been in OKC on business. I've been checking responses, but haven't had much time to post.

Ok, so while I hate to seem as though I've floundered a bit, I have decided to stick with the 5" Pro for the time being. I believe several valid points have been made in favor of sticking with 9mm and in favor of changing to a larger caliber. However, I based my decision on sticking with 9mm on the expense of ammunition, and that with proper, modern loads, the 9mm can be at least as effective as .40 and .45.

However the challenge to find an owb kydex holster, with the possibility of a weapon light (but not exclusively limited to), remains. Raven concealment has a wait that I'm not in very much favor of, Bravo Concealment isn't currently producing one for the 5" Pro, and I'm waiting to hear back from Atomic Dog Holsters (fingers crossed).

If anyone has any other suggestions on holsters, please let me know.

On a different note, and this may roll into another thread, I've been considering some sort of .22lr pistol for all around practice. Any opinions on the M&P 22?

[Nephrology]

Sorry to avoid my own thread, I've been in OKC on business. I've been checking responses, but haven't had much time to post.

Ok, so while I hate to seem as though I've floundered a bit, I have decided to stick with the 5" Pro for the time being. I believe several valid points have been made in favor of sticking with 9mm and in favor of changing to a larger caliber. However, I based my decision on sticking with 9mm on the expense of ammunition, and that with proper, modern loads, the 9mm can be at least as effective as .40 and .45.

However the challenge to find an owb kydex holster, with the possibility of a weapon light (but not exclusively limited to), remains. Raven concealment has a wait that I'm not in very much favor of, Bravo Concealment isn't currently producing one for the 5" Pro, and I'm waiting to hear back from Atomic Dog Holsters (fingers crossed).

If anyone has any other suggestions on holsters, please let me know.

On a different note, and this may roll into another thread, I've been considering some sort of .22lr pistol for all around practice. Any opinions on the M&P 22?

Kaluban Cloak makes raven-style holsters. They have a wait list but it is not as crazy long as Raven's. They are well rated.

[czydj]

However the challenge to find an owb kydex holster, with the possibility of a weapon light (but not exclusively limited to), remains.

Comp-tac makes good kydex stuff, but I don't see one for the Pro w/light.

http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=53

[Ironman8]

On a different note, and this may roll into another thread, I've been considering some sort of .22lr pistol for all around practice. Any opinions on the M&P 22?

See my post above if you care to hear my opinion on the matter...FWIW, you are on the right track going with a 22LR trainer that is the same basic platform as your carry/competition pistol, but I still think dry fire would be just as effective and WAY cheaper.

[xanderzuk]

See my post above if you care to hear my opinion on the matter...FWIW, you are on the right track going with a 22LR trainer that is the same basic platform as your carry/competition pistol, but I still think dry fire would be just as effective and WAY cheaper.

Definitely food for thought. While I do dry-fire frequently, it'd be nice to find a holster that I like to practice draw, and to dry-fire from!

The advantage that I see to a .22 platform is repeated trigger pull/control training without having to rack the slide over and over, as well as seeing the impact/result of that trigger pull. I agree it does very little to train for recoil.

[dudshep31]

Check out secret city weaponeers for a holster. I've heard nothing but good things about his holsters and have one on order myself

[xanderzuk]

Check out secret city weaponeers for a holster. I've heard nothing but good things about his holsters and have one on order myself

Again, no option for a Pro or L 5", largest they make is for a full size. Maybe this is my opportunity to get into kydex holster making...

[tpd223]

I find using the .22s to be basically live-dry fire.

You don't get the recoil, but you do get the confirmation that your sighting and trigger work are where they need to be.

It's also a really good tool at times to cure shooters of flinching.



IMHO all quality trigger time is good trigger time.

[norinco982lover]

I say either stick with it or look at the xdm 9mm or .40 3.8 compact.

Sounds like you really like the gun. I would keep it. I like my xdm compact a lot though...you might too!

[DocGKR]

Why would any sane person go from an M&P to an XDM???

[Nephrology]

Why would any sane person go from an M&P to an XDM???

I am pretty certain that buying guns under the influence is at the very least not recommended and might even be a violation of the terms of the form 4473.... that's the only explanation that comes to mind!

[xanderzuk]

I am pretty certain that buying guns under the influence is at the very least not recommended and might even be a violation of the terms of the form 4473.... that's the only explanation that comes to mind!

You guys are bad...

[C4IGrant]

Why would any sane person go from an M&P to an XDM???

:sarcastic:


C4

[Icculus]

Comp-tac makes good kydex stuff, but I don't see one for the Pro w/light.

http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=53

I think you have to contact them but I'm pretty sure they will do a light compatible for the Pro. Didn't see light mentioned on the paddle link you posted but it mentions it on the belt holster page

http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=66


This holster is also available in red Kydex and for Gun/Light Combos.

[Chayse]

Currently, they only list the light compatible belt holster for the Glock platform. I, too, have a 9 Pro that I use as my do most gun, I also have a 9c. I bought the Comp-Tac Paddle for my Pro and it fits the 9c just fine. Only downside is no light.

[dhunley1]

Why would any sane person go from an M&P to an XDM???

Maybe they're just tacticool like that... :cool: :rolleyes:

[theblackknight]

I might be crude, but my version of a detailed strip and clean in a can 1.97$ can of supertech carb cleaner. I've never had a extraction problem in about 8000 rounds.

[xanderzuk]

I might be crude, but my version of a detailed strip and clean in a can 1.97$ can of supertech carb cleaner. I've never had a extraction problem in about 8000 rounds.

You sir, are no gentleman.

You know, now that you mention it, any time I've used disc brake cleaner on auto parts, grit, grease, etc. hasn't stood a chance. All the brake and carb cleaner in the world couldn't solve how dirty I feel just thinking about it, but I'm thinking about it nonetheless.

[Ironman8]

Just a thought, but why wouldn't you just carry a small, high lumen EDC light as well as your carry gun (sans weapon mounted light) instead of scouring the earth for a holster that will allow a weapon mounted light?? To be honest, the more I learn about low light shooting, the less I want a light attached to my gun. While it may be easier to shoot with a weapon mounted light because you can use both hands, just remember that lights attract bullets! (not to mention that mounting a light only makes your gun heavier on your belt)

My HD handgun still has a light, but that is because I would employ slightly different tactics in my home than if I were in some unfamiliar, dark alley...

FWIW, my choice would be to carry without the light in a Crossbreed Supertuck...unbelievable how comfortable my FS is and how well it conceals.

[xanderzuk]

Just a thought, but why wouldn't you just carry a small, high lumen EDC light as well as your carry gun (sans weapon mounted light) instead of scouring the earth for a holster that will allow a weapon mounted light?? To be honest, the more I learn about low light shooting, the less I want a light attached to my gun. While it may be easier to shoot with a weapon mounted light because you can use both hands, just remember that lights attract bullets! (not to mention that mounting a light only makes your gun heavier on your belt)

My HD handgun still has a light, but that is because I would employ slightly different tactics in my home than if I were in some unfamiliar, dark alley...

FWIW, my choice would be to carry without the light in a Crossbreed Supertuck...unbelievable how comfortable my FS is and how well it conceals.

Unfortunately your points aren't applicable, as I have no intent to use this gun for concealed carry. I realize that I may have been a little ambiguous when I expressed my intent to find a holster for this gun, but that's not the role I had in mind. When I ticked off a defensive role for this pistol, I meant in the home or similar environment. Likewise I would use it in an offensive role (I cringe when I say things like that, I'm just so sick of "SHTF"), if that sort of situation were to arise.

Also, I understand that lights or "flashlights" attract bullets, but that's kind of like the old saying that "tracers work both ways." I believe that to be effective, and responsible, you have to see and identify what you're going to shoot at. With the momentary on/off capability of something like an X300, I wouldn't be walking around with the light permanently on. I prefer the control of both hands when possible.

[Ironman8]

Unfortunately your points aren't applicable, as I have no intent to use this gun for concealed carry. I realize that I may have been a little ambiguous when I expressed my intent to find a holster for this gun, but that's not the role I had in mind. When I ticked off a defensive role for this pistol, I meant in the home or similar environment. Likewise I would use it in an offensive role (I cringe when I say things like that, I'm just so sick of "SHTF"), if that sort of situation were to arise.

Also, I understand that lights or "flashlights" attract bullets, but that's kind of like the old saying that "tracers work both ways." I believe that to be effective, and responsible, you have to see and identify what you're going to shoot at. With the momentary on/off capability of something like an X300, I wouldn't be walking around with the light permanently on. I prefer the control of both hands when possible.

If you have low/no light training and understand light discipline, as well as have a role for your light mounted weapon (as I do) then carry on and don't mind me :D

[willowofwisp]

, just remember that lights attract bullets! (not to mention that mounting a light only makes your gun heavier on your belt).

Really? heavier? an surefire x300 doesn't weight much at all..I don't even notice the weight whether I have it mounted or not. And the lights attracting bullets? Lots of things attract bullets..pretty much anything with gravity attracts bullets. Those are both poor excuses as to not carry a WML for concealed carry. A WML also does not replace a handheld...so the OP can still carry both.

Where exactly have you learned low light shooting?

I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, just trying to figure out how either of those two opinions have enough strength to detract someone from carrying a WML.

[xanderzuk]

Really? heavier? an surefire x300 doesn't weight much at all..I don't even notice the weight whether I have it mounted or not.

Having thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2009, from Georgia to Maine, 2178 miles over a period of six months, I can tell you that everything weighs something, and that a bunch of little things that weigh "almost nothing," end up weighing something, ounces make pounds.


And the lights attracting bullets? Lots of things attract bullets..pretty much anything with gravity attracts bullets.

Alright, not trying to bash you either, but really? gravity? This is the silliest retort I've encountered in a while. I can tell you from my low/no light shooting experience (I'll explain below) that light, or things that reflect light draw my attention. So, if you were on a two way range, walking around with a light on isn't the best idea AFAIK. Probably the reason the military uses night and thermal vision instead of big ass spotlights.



Where exactly have you learned low light shooting?

Now I know that this question, and really this inquiry altogether, wasn't directed at me, but I just want to throw it out there that my low light training came from two places: hog hunting, and my thru-hike, as my daily itinerary often required me to hike far into the night. Having been in precarious situations during both experiences, the two senses I relied up the most were sight and sound (scent an extremely close third).

In hog hunting, hog eyes don't have a distinct, iridescent glow like most other animals. This makes it very difficult to see eye reflection from things such as moonlight, ambient light, etc. Likewise, if you shine a light all over the place, you might spook them, so you have to shine selectively. Visually, I try to rely on color contrasts and movement. Audibly, I listen for vegetation crunching, or snorting/oinking (they can be loud little ****ers sometimes).

Humans lack the same iridescent eye glow, which makes it a lot easier to hide. You can't shine your weapon light into a tree line and see 75 NVA eyes glowing like deer. Light is a beacon (see: lighthouse), therefore it is essential to use discretion when in a hostile environment.

[willowofwisp]

Having thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail in 2009, from Georgia to Maine, 2178 miles over a period of six months, I can tell you that everything weighs something, and that a bunch of little things that weigh "almost nothing," end up weighing something, ounces make pounds.

I don't think the OP or myself are going to be hiking 2,000 miles with our concealed carry gear...and if weight is the case why not download my magazines? its roughly 3 147gr rounds to an ounce. With a quality belt and holster the 3.8 ounces of weight of the x300 is unnoticable.

Alright, not trying to bash you either, but really? gravity? This is the silliest retort I've encountered in a while. I can tell you from my low/no light shooting experience (I'll explain below) that light, or things that reflect light draw my attention. So, if you were on a two way range, walking around with a light on isn't the best idea AFAIK. Probably the reason the military uses night and thermal vision instead of big ass spotlights.

I was just throwing a reason out there..after taking a low light class and participating in a low light demo class (both with well known instructors) I find the whole flashlight attracting bullets to be nonsense, what about muzzle flash? I wouldn't be walking around with a light on, light discipline has already been mentioned. The WML is another tool in the tool box, and it has several other uses besides putting light on a threat (close contact shoots, breaking windows, etc.

Now I know that this question, and really this inquiry altogether, wasn't directed at me, but I just want to throw it out there that my low light training came from two places: hog hunting, and my thru-hike, as my daily itinerary often required me to hike far into the night. Having been in precarious situations during both experiences, the two senses I relied up the most were sight and sound (scent an extremely close third).

In hog hunting, hog eyes don't have a distinct, iridescent glow like most other animals. This makes it very difficult to see eye reflection from things such as moonlight, ambient light, etc. Likewise, if you shine a light all over the place, you might spook them, so you have to shine selectively. Visually, I try to rely on color contrasts and movement. Audibly, I listen for vegetation crunching, or snorting/oinking (they can be loud little ****ers sometimes).

Humans lack the same iridescent eye glow, which makes it a lot easier to hide. You can't shine your weapon light into a tree line and see 75 NVA eyes glowing like deer. Light is a beacon (see: lighthouse), therefore it is essential to use discretion when in a hostile environment.

I understand where you are coming from but in my situation I wouldn't necessarily be using the WML to search, that's what my handheld light is for, and I hope the only thing I would ever need to clear/search is my house, which I better be able to navigate with little to no light.

Xanderzuk,

Thanks for the inciteful reply, I know i didn't specifically ask you but you do bring up some valid points, in the end people have different opinions on WML and I respect that, personally I find more reasons to carry it than not.

see bold.

[Ironman8]

Really? heavier? an surefire x300 doesn't weight much at all..I don't even notice the weight whether I have it mounted or not. And the lights attracting bullets? Lots of things attract bullets..pretty much anything with gravity attracts bullets. Those are both poor excuses as to not carry a WML for concealed carry. A WML also does not replace a handheld...so the OP can still carry both.

Where exactly have you learned low light shooting?

I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that, just trying to figure out how either of those two opinions have enough strength to detract someone from carrying a WML.

1) Xanderzuk explained it well, but I'll go slightly further to say that a WML will be bulkier and will create a larger "footprint" on your beltline. If carrying IWB...fuggetaboutit.

2) WTF? Gravity?

3) I NEVER said that a WML will replace a handheld...in fact, I even said that I have one on my HD handgun.

4) I will not get into a pissing contest with you about who I have or haven't trained with in low/no light.

5) Yeah I think you were trying to bash...be a man and don't try to pat my back after you just finished bashing me because you think I'm wrong. I will be a man and not take offense to an internet troll.

[Ironman8]

Xanderzuk,

Thanks for the inciteful reply, I know i didn't specifically ask you but you do bring up some valid points, in the end people have different opinions on WML and I respect that, personally I find more reasons to carry it than not.

see bold.

Wow it just gets better...download mags so you can have a WML??? Really? :shout:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." -Abe Lincoln

BTW...Xanderzuk IS the OP!

[willowofwisp]

1) Xanderzuk explained it well, but I'll go slightly further to say that a WML will be bulkier and will create a larger "footprint" on your beltline. If carrying IWB...fuggetaboutit.

I have never been made while carrying a WML IWB, the WML isn't much thicker than a glock/m&p slide, there is no visible clue that i am or am not carrying a WML IWB
2) WTF? Gravity?

Its just a valid argument as saying light attracts bullets...

3) I NEVER said that a WML will replace a handheld...in fact, I even said that I have one on my HD handgun.
I was only stating that for other readers, some people often think that a WML replaces a handheld..
4) I will not get into a pissing contest with you about who I have or haven't trained with in low/no light.
It wasn't a pissing contest, just a question, some trainers have a different mindset/idea on low light shooting.
5) Yeah I think you were trying to bash...be a man and don't try to pat my back after you just finished bashing me because you think I'm wrong. I will be a man and not take offense to an internet troll.

I didn't call you any names..I just asked questions to your opinions,


Yea..I noticed he was the OP after i reread it LOL....My argument with the weight was that he brought it up..if every ounce matters then why carry a high capacity gun? why not a kahr pm9 with 7 rounds of 9mm?

[Nephrology]

I carry OWB with a G19+TLR1 when it gets nice and frosty out and I am damn happy to have it there. Why? Got the Raven that holds it for a song! (60 bucks shipped, coyote brown AND MD cut)

I dont think the WML is the end all be all nor do I think it is the worst decision one could ever make. it's just another thing to lug around, as if any of us are lacking for heavy dangerous shit to carry on a daily basis. Decide what you want to use and get over it, the WML debate is almost as bad as 9mm vs .45 sometimes...

[Ironman8]

Yea..I noticed he was the OP after i reread it LOL....My argument with the weight was that he brought it up..if every ounce matters then why carry a high capacity gun? why not a kahr pm9 with 7 rounds of 9mm?

Ok well as far as I'm concerned this is behind us and we can chalk this up to different training and theories...heck maybe my own theories (based on my training) will be changed in the next couple of months with the classes I have scheduled.

ETA: FWIW, being from Texas, I will take a small EDC light and handgun with no WML (while carrying) any day of the year since its always so damn hot and I don't wear the clothes that would be required to "sufficiently" conceal the weapon (there is actually a law against your ccw printing....can you believe that!). If I was in a leo or mil role, or even just for HD, I would take the WML over the separate light (along with the edc light)...each has its place.

[willowofwisp]

Ok well as far as I'm concerned this is behind us and we can chalk this up to different training and theories...heck maybe my own theories (based on my training) will be changed in the next couple of months with the classes I have scheduled.

ETA: FWIW, being from Texas, I will take a small EDC light and handgun with no WML (while carrying) any day of the year since its always so damn hot and I don't wear the clothes that would be required to "sufficiently" conceal the weapon (there is actually a law against your ccw printing....can you believe that!). If I was in a leo or mil role, or even just for HD, I would take the WML over the separate light (along with the edc light)...each has its place.

Fully agreed, I know I'm not 100% always in the right and I go out of my way to try and prove a point or opinion, which isn't always the best method lol..odds are if we were talking about this while drinking a few beers at the table it would of sounded totally different.

Yea I didn't think about dress being different (or environment/weather), in Michigan I am always always wearing khakis or jeans and a polo Monday through Friday for work, so my wardrobe was really never an issue when carrying.

[RagweedZulu]

I think you guys have pointed out that there are TWO major theories about carrying with a weapon and light.

I prefer and train with a separate handheld light.
1). Not all of my CCW weapons have a rail.
2). It's much easier to carry a pistol without the light. Thinner, more holster options.
3). There are about 900 times in a day when I need a small light, but DON'T want to draw my pistol to use it. People in my area tend to feel uncomfortable when I use my weapon mounted light to find a good seat in the theater.
4). Training and on duty experience has shown me that an independent light is easier to search/detain/distract with when the weapon is in the other hand.

Point being, let's not bash anyone here over their methods. Industry pros will swear by both methods and I'm sure both methods have kept many folks alive in dark, dangerous situations..

[Joeywhat]

I think you guys have pointed out that there are TWO major theories about carrying with a weapon and light.

I prefer and train with a separate handheld light.
1). Not all of my CCW weapons have a rail.
2). It's much easier to carry a pistol without the light. Thinner, more holster options.
3). There are about 900 times in a day when I need a small light, but DON'T want to draw my pistol to use it. People in my area tend to feel uncomfortable when I use my weapon mounted light to find a good seat in the theater.
4). Training and on duty experience has shown me that an independent light is easier to search/detain/distract with when the weapon is in the other hand.

Point being, let's not bash anyone here over their methods. Industry pros will swear by both methods and I'm sure both methods have kept many folks alive in dark, dangerous situations..

Why not just use both? I carry a WML and a handheld...the thought of using a WML for day to day tasks seems rather absurd, as people always assume with a WML that a handheld won't be carried.

[DocGKR]

I do use both--always a SF L4 and frequently an x300.

[redfernsoljah]

Weight! :sarcastic: Seriously I carry a small keychain light for most things and a tlr3 on my 9c and an x300 on my 9 and both conceal well. In hot and cold. Could you imagine taking out a big surefire to find your seat in a theater all 200 lumens of blinding light. The weapon mounted light is there as a tool to identify targets in my opinion not to search with. In the end I think it comes down to personal preference and training with either way. Does my way work better for how I use it? i think so. Oh and after CCW for about 5 years and using weapon mounted and non weapon mounted in theater for search and seizure, and almost anything else you could think of in Iraq it is what I have come to think is the best for me.

[Nephrology]

I think you guys have pointed out that there are TWO major theories about carrying with a weapon and light.

I prefer and train with a separate handheld light.
1). Not all of my CCW weapons have a rail.
2). It's much easier to carry a pistol without the light. Thinner, more holster options.
3). There are about 900 times in a day when I need a small light, but DON'T want to draw my pistol to use it. People in my area tend to feel uncomfortable when I use my weapon mounted light to find a good seat in the theater.
4). Training and on duty experience has shown me that an independent light is easier to search/detain/distract with when the weapon is in the other hand.

Point being, let's not bash anyone here over their methods. Industry pros will swear by both methods and I'm sure both methods have kept many folks alive in dark, dangerous situations..

Nobody I have ever met or heard of advocates carrying a WML in PLACE of a handheld.

I always have a Streamlight in my front pocket, even when I am not carrying a gun (Which with my current vocation is unfortunately often). The WML is part of the weapon system. Just like I don't scratch my ear with the muzzle of my G19 or use it to open beer cans, I also don't use the WML for anything but illuminating targets.

I also have to say that carring with a WML isn't really that much harder than carrying without. I carry OWB with a raven concealment rig and it's no less inconvenient than carrying OWB without. I only carry OWB when I can get away with a larger belt footprint - this also almost always means 1 or 2 OWB mags as well.

IWB, however, I don't use a WML as it would be too chunky for the way I am carrying, and I limit myself to 1 IWB mag too.

[jtsikes0204]

love the glock 22!