View Full Version : .260 Rem vs. 6.5 Creedmore
Gents,
With LMT set to release a few new caliber barrels for the MWS, what do you think the best long range caliber will be for the platform? I've been reading a lot of different threads on different forums and if I was building a bolt gun I would go for the .260 Remington. But this will be on the MWS platform so will the 6.5 Creedmoor be better?
So, which would be the best for the platform? Mostly thinking regarding magazines (which relies less on seating the buller way out so it will fit in mags), which lends itself better to use in a semi-auto platform as far as feeding, will 20" barrels be long enough to make either of these calibers worth the effort or will you lose too much?
Thanks,
Spooky
cfulback32
08-30-11, 02:02
I don't know how familiar you are with the two, but here is a great article to start:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/
and another:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-creedmoor-260-done-right/
also, I would go to google, and type "6.5 260 site:snipershide.com"
You will find a wealth of information comparing the two cartridges with that search.
Personally, I would go for 6.5cm myself due to relatively cheap factory match ammo, easy to duplicate loads if you reload (they are right on the box of ammo), and recommendations from asking others this same question myself.
As far as the 20" barrel, that should not a be a problem at all. Figure roughly 20 or 25 fps per inch from something like a 20" to a 24" or 26". You still have great ballistics out of a 20" barrel for fighting the wind and very flat trajectory compared to say, 308.
cfulback32
08-30-11, 02:07
For example, here is a good thread:
"LMT MWS 6.5 or 260 availibility and preference"
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457790
The first image searching ".260 Rem 6.5 Creedmoor" on Snipershide pulls up a dead horse being beaten - there is a good bit of information out there.
To cherrypick from Zak Smith's article, which is excellent and very much worth the read: the 260, 6.5 CM and 6.5x47 are ballistically too close to decide. 6.5CM brings a Hornady Factory Match load to the table, while for experienced reloaders being able to neck up high quality Lapua 243 brass or neck down W-W 7mm makes is extremely affordable.
I'm a huge fan of the 260 Remington, but for the MWS I would favor the 6.5CM because it was designed to be mag length in AR-10 platform weapons, and the availability of factory ammunition.
I'm a huge fan of the 260 Remington, but for the MWS I would favor the 6.5CM because it was designed to be mag length in AR-10 platform weapons, and the availability of factory ammunition.
That's the info I'm looking for - I read all of Zak's articles but he is using strictly bolt guns for comparison with no mention of how they work in a semi-auto platform. After his articles I was leaning towards the .260 Remington but there is a lack of info on the use in gas guns...
None of the threads I found over at Sniper's Hide had much in the way of discussion about semi-autos and the 6.5s. Most threads fell back into comparisons of bolt guns which is good but not what I'm looking for. One thread said a 20" barrel on a semi-auto would have slower velocities than a 20" barrel on a bolt gun. Another said brass loaded hot gets chewed up much faster in a gas gun than a bolt action which makes sense. I'm assuming that folks are able to load to appropriate OAL because no one has mentioned that issue over there.
I used to have an AR-10 type rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and I currently have a bolt gun in .260 that my wife uses as her long range match rifle. I agree with pretty much everyone else when they say that the two rounds are basically identical from a performance standpoint. In an AR platform like you're looking to run I'd take the 6.5C though because the case itself if slightly shorter, and a hair wider. That allows you to seat the bullet to magazine length without using up as much of the case's internal capacity as the .260 would require. That said, it's really not too bad even with the .260 and there are plenty of .260 AR guns out there too. Also, you didn't mention if you'd be handloading this. If you're not handloading then I'd take the 6.5C in any platform over the .260. The Hornady 6.5C match ammo is great and reasonably priced.
As far as barrel length goes, you really have to define what the role of this rifle is. My 6.5C rifle had a 24" barrel and I was able to get the 140 grain bullets into the 2800FPS range with RL-17 powder. If you're looking for something handy to carry around and shoot at medium ranges then maybe it's worth it to take the 20" and give up a little velocity. If you're regularly shooting past 800 yards maybe you'll accept a bit more length and weight to get the extra velocity of the 24" barrel. That's really a question only you can answer.
The 6.5CM is all marketing. And really good, reasonably priced Hornady match ammo...
6.5CM is loaded to 2.8", how does it fit mags better than 2.8" 260 Rem?
For reloading the 260 is a bit better for component selection, if shooting factory ammo the Hornady 6.5CM match ammo is going to be hard to beat.
The 6.5CM is all marketing. And really good, reasonably priced Hornady match ammo...
6.5CM is loaded to 2.8", how does it fit mags better than 2.8" 260 Rem?
For reloading the 260 is a bit better for component selection, if shooting factory ammo the Hornady 6.5CM match ammo is going to be hard to beat.
Because the case is shorter and has a little less taper. A given bullet loaded to 2.8" in a 6.5C case will take up less of the available case volume than that same bullet loaded to 2.8" in a .260 case.
The 6.5CM is all marketing. And really good, reasonably priced Hornady match ammo...
6.5CM is loaded to 2.8", how does it fit mags better than 2.8" 260 Rem?
For reloading the 260 is a bit better for component selection, if shooting factory ammo the Hornady 6.5CM match ammo is going to be hard to beat.
It is not so much fitting in the mag as you point out, it is having a really long bullet (142SMK, etc.) with its ogive sitting beneath the case mouth in a .260 at 2.8". There are also things like where the shank of the bullet ends up in relation to the "doughnut" at the interior base of the neck after a few resizings.
Thanks for the great info guys!
Purpose: 600-1200ish practical shooting with the purchase of only a new barrel. Looking for velocity over handiness at this point - with the swap of a barrel I can have handiness!
Handloading: Yes, I will be handloading for it. The option for quality factory match ammo is a great plus.
Todd K - regarding 6.5 CM marketing - that is exactly what Zak Smith said in his article, Remington fumbled the .260 and Hornady has really done a great job promoting their round.
Has anyone heard what length barrels LMT might put out for the .260 Rem or 6.5 CM? I would imagine at least a 20" tube...
Spooky
It is not so much fitting in the mag as you point out, it is having a really long bullet (142SMK, etc.) with its ogive sitting beneath the case mouth in a .260 at 2.8". There are also things like where the shank of the bullet ends up in relation to the "doughnut" at the interior base of the neck after a few resizings.There are probably two VLD bullets I know of that have an ogive long enough to be an issue at mag length in a 260 case. These are not common bullets and I don't know anyone who uses them in a semi. Normal match bullets like the Amax, SMK, and Scenar are not too long for the 260 case loaded to mag length.
Because the case is shorter and has a little less taper. A given bullet loaded to 2.8" in a 6.5C case will take up less of the available case volume than that same bullet loaded to 2.8" in a .260 case.So the 6.5CM should have higher velocity, but it really has slightly less at the same pressure? http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
I have nothing against the 6.5CM, but reality is reality and marketing is marketing. Other than a few people who shoot space guns with SR-25 mags and extra long VLD's there is no "need" for it to exist. The existence of Hornady match ammo makes it a great choice for a semi.
There are probably two VLD bullets I know of that have an ogive long enough to be an issue at mag length in a 260 case. These are not common bullets and I don't know anyone who uses them in a semi. Normal match bullets like the Amax, SMK, and Scenar are not too long for the 260 case loaded to mag length.
So the 6.5CM should have higher velocity, but it really has slightly less at the same pressure? http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
I have nothing against the 6.5CM, but reality is reality and marketing is marketing. Other than a few people who shoot space guns with SR-25 mags and extra long VLD's there is no "need" for it to exist. The existence of Hornady match ammo makes it a great choice for a semi.
I'm not arguing that the 6.5C is better than .260. I'm merely stating that it can be loaded to magazine length in an AR10 platform without sacrificing as much case volume as the .260 and if the guy doesn't reload then 6.5C is definitely the better choice.
What would you say the range is where you really start to tell the difference between .308 and .260 as to such the latter really gains the clear advantage?
What would you say the range is where you really start to tell the difference between .308 and .260 as to such the latter really gains the clear advantage?
It really depends on the wind and whether or not you know the exact distance to your target, and it depends on the size of your target. For instance by 700 yards a .260 firing a 142SMK at 2800fps would be drifting about 12" less in a 10mph crosswind compared to a .308 sending a 175SMK at 2700fps.
There are probably two VLD bullets I know of that have an ogive long enough to be an issue at mag length in a 260 case. These are not common bullets and I don't know anyone who uses them in a semi. Normal match bullets like the Amax, SMK, and Scenar are not too long for the 260 case loaded to mag length.
So the 6.5CM should have higher velocity, but it really has slightly less at the same pressure? http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
I have nothing against the 6.5CM, but reality is reality and marketing is marketing. Other than a few people who shoot space guns with SR-25 mags and extra long VLD's there is no "need" for it to exist. The existence of Hornady match ammo makes it a great choice for a semi.
Todd,
Noveske has 6.5CM barrels - do you know of any plans to offer barrels in .260 Rem?
Spooky
I don't think we plan to add the 260 to our line. The price, quality, and availability of Hornady 6.5 CM makes it the better choice for most people.
I don't think we plan to add the 260 to our line. The price, quality, and availability of Hornady 6.5 CM makes it the better choice for most people.
Thanks Todd...
Do you know why you went with the 1x8 twist? The one picture from SHOT has LMT's 6.5CM offering with a 1x9 twist. In my research so far I haven't found any comments on the different twists for the 6.5 barrels out there.
And do you have any reports on how well your 6.5 CM barrels are shooting - I've found one report and it looks like they are typical Noveske barrels as far as accuracy goes!
Spooky
while for experienced reloaders being able to neck up high quality Lapua 243 brass or neck down W-W 7mm makes is extremely affordable.
http://www.lapua.com/en/products/new-products/1
http://www.lapua.com/en/products/new-products/1
Good brass! It will be expensive but worth it from all I have heard Lapua brass is as good as it gets. Wonder when it will be available?
It is hard to beat the 6.5 CM at $25 a box for loaded ammo!
Spooky
The 1/8" twist is the standard for 6.5 CM. The 1/9" standard for the 260 Rem is OK with most bullets but people who know they will be shooting the long heavy match bullets build them with 1/8" twist most of the time.
The 6.5 CM rifles and barrels are shooting great.
How much trimming of excess thickness is there in resizing .308 brass (for example milsurp) into .260? Is doing so a worthwhile way to go about getting it?
I compared the case dimensions of the 6.5 creed and the 250 Ackley (30°) Improved. They are pretty close. It seems like the 6.5 Creed in basically the 250 Ackley (30°) Improved necked up from 6.35mm to 6.5mm.
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