View Full Version : Where To Keep Pistol In Vehicle
Having a hard time finding a good place to keep my dedicated car gun in my car. I have a 2012 Focus, and I'll be keeping a Glock 17 (soon to be G22) somewhere inside, currently in a Raven Phantom (no light).
I've tried a few of the more common areas, and none seemed ideal. Under the steering wheel is very difficult to get to considering I'm driving a compact car. Likewise, there's really no room in the center console for it, either. I also cannot put it between the drivers seat and center console as the hand brake is in the way, there's really nothing to keep it in place. It would mount very well between the passenger seat and center console, however at that point it's extremely visible from outside, and would likely have to be removed depending on what passengers I'm carrying at the time. So I'm hoping for a better option.
A little more info on the car, I've removed the back seats so the rear of the car is solely for storage (it's a hatch). As such I should be able to have it back there somewhere without much issue in terms of passenger accessibility or keeping out of view from the outside, although obviously anything mounted back there will start to be difficult to acquire when needed. Also it's a leased vehicle, and while it's very likely I'll purchase the vehicle when it's up I'd like to keep the mount as removable as possible - so no drilling into the dash or anything else.
Any thoughts?
Captains1911
08-30-11, 07:32
Leaving a gun in a car permanently is extremely irresponsible IMO. Carry it on your person or leave it at home.
Having a hard time finding a good place to keep my dedicated car gun in my car. I have a 2012 Focus, and I'll be keeping a Glock 17 (soon to be G22) somewhere inside, currently in a Raven Phantom (no light).
I've tried a few of the more common areas, and none seemed ideal. Under the steering wheel is very difficult to get to considering I'm driving a compact car. Likewise, there's really no room in the center console for it, either. I also cannot put it between the drivers seat and center console as the hand brake is in the way, there's really nothing to keep it in place. It would mount very well between the passenger seat and center console, however at that point it's extremely visible from outside, and would likely have to be removed depending on what passengers I'm carrying at the time. So I'm hoping for a better option.
A little more info on the car, I've removed the back seats so the rear of the car is solely for storage (it's a hatch). As such I should be able to have it back there somewhere without much issue in terms of passenger accessibility or keeping out of view from the outside, although obviously anything mounted back there will start to be difficult to acquire when needed. Also it's a leased vehicle, and while it's very likely I'll purchase the vehicle when it's up I'd like to keep the mount as removable as possible - so no drilling into the dash or anything else.
Any thoughts?
First of all I would check your state and local regulations. In SC you must keep the firearm in your console or glove box.
Second, if you can not find a place you feel comfortable with, look into the gunvault nano. You can secure it around almost any semi-permanent fixture ( IE seat tracks).
Michigan....
Velcro a Raven to the dashboard.
Velcro a Raven to the headliner.
Why do you want to keep the Gleck in the car again?
Leaving a gun in a car permanently is extremely irresponsible IMO. Carry it on your person or leave it at home.
This. If you need to access a firearm quickly while in your car, it should be on your person. If you need to access a firearm quickly while outside your car, it does you no good to have the pistol in the car.
A firearm left in the car is just a target for theft. It is extremely difficult to safeguard against loss. You might want to keep a spare magazine or two to support your CCW in the car, but I would not leave a firearm inside, no matter how well I felt it was hidden/secured.
A buddy of mine wanted to keep his P220 in his truck. But being in California it was difficult to do so. He was also worried about it getting stolen. So what he did was he kept the slide (slide barrel and recoil assembly) and frame in two pieces, frame in the truck and slide in his back pack. with a few extra mags in the truck. The logic there was that if someone broke in to this truck they'd only get half a gun which would most likely be discarded.
Obviously the problem was being able to find the pieces and put two and two together in time before someone's on top of you. I've thought about carrying a weapon in the car several times, But I let too many people borrow my car for errands through out the day now that it'd be more of a head ache than anything else.
Good luck.
QuietShootr
08-30-11, 10:26
Keeping a pistol in the car with the idea that you're going to be able to get to it in time of danger is not realistic. If it's secure enough it can't be easily stolen, you probably won't be able to get to it in time even when you're in the car.
Now if you want to talk trunk long guns, that's a different thing entirely.
I would keep the gun on you as a carry weapon. if it is not comfortable while sitting in the car, you could have a place in the car where you store it, but when you leave the car you should put it back on your person. or just find a holster that is comfortable even in the car.
I see a value in a vehicle mounted holster accessible from the driver's seat without having to move much to draw it. It would be for my carry gun, which would go back in my belt hoster when exiting my truck.
Executing the application of said holster to be concealed and usable is the problem I have yet to solve. My "truck gun" is the one on my belt when I am in my truck, at least for now.
In general I don't think this is a great idea. One of the easiest and most common crimes for drug addicts is to break into cars and see what they can find. I'm sure they would love to find your G17.
Providing it is legal in your area, perhaps you could mount a "gunvault" with a finger touch combination in your trunk area with heavy-duty bolts. This could be fairly secure.
The best bet is to carry the weapon.
Leaving a gun in a car permanently is extremely irresponsible IMO. Carry it on your person or leave it at home.
+1. A friend of mine recently had a pistol stolen from his car. Its stupid to leave it.
I think there was a whole thread on it right? About leaving guns in cars? Im pretty sure quite a few people had them stolen also
In CA the only legal way to have a pistol in their vehicle with them and reasonable easy access is to carry is openly+ un loaded. Or have a compact lock box, pistol inside and leave the key in the key lock. But back to the topic I would NOT leave a firearm in a vehicle as a dedicated car/ truck gun. To illustrate I almost had to learn the victim way. I always had a $300 5- shot revolver in my truck (truck gun)locked in a safe that was not visible from the outer truck. One morning I woke up to my truck broken into. My truck was a mess all my belongings everywhere! I came to realization that "oh sh1t!" my firearm was left in my truck in the same. I quickly opened my safe and was fortunate the burglar did not rip, break the cable take my safe. That is my personal experience and would pass it on to say don't leave your pistol, long arm in your vehicle.
Smuckatelli
08-30-11, 12:05
Any thoughts?
Do you have a CCW permit?
I have a micro vault in the trunk but it is only used for a very limited amount of time when I can't carry.
Leaving a gun in a car permanently is extremely irresponsible IMO. Carry it on your person or leave it at home.
^This^
Did I ever say I didn't also carry a pistol on my person?
I don't think I did.......
The whole point of the car gun is to have a better option then the gun carried on my hip, which is rather difficult to get to while seated in my vehicle.
Guess I also should never leave my vehicle (locked or otherwise) to go take a piss on my way to the range or get gas or anything, either :/
F-Trooper05
08-30-11, 12:37
I've had my car broke into three times in my life (and I'm only 28). There's no way I'd ever leave a gun in there.
Airborne12b
08-30-11, 12:50
Did I ever say I didn't also carry a pistol on my person?
I don't think I did.......
The whole point of the car gun is to have a better option then the gun carried on my hip, which is rather difficult to get to while seated in my vehicle.
Guess I also should never leave my vehicle (locked or otherwise) to go take a piss on my way to the range or get gas or anything, either :/
I know I didn't take from your original post that you were referring to *only* while you were driving. I took from it what everyone else took from it.
nobody knows
08-30-11, 18:34
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he is saying that he has a dedicated ccw, but want something to keep in the car also. For wen his ccw is on his hip in a seated position. I thought about doing the same thing; what I decided to do is just to stage the gun wen I get into the car. I just mounted a hybrid de-santes[sp] holster to the side of the center console. You can mount it permanently, or you can use velcro. I keep a shemagh draped over the center console and holster wen I exit the vehicle I re holster; and cover the holster. I used the hybrid holster because It has a slim profile, and it has a large flat surface for stable mounting. It works well for me. But might not be the solution for you. Good luck in your search for what works for you.
Smuckatelli
08-30-11, 18:50
Did I ever say I didn't also carry a pistol on my person?
I don't think I did.......
The whole point of the car gun is to have a better option then the gun carried on my hip, which is rather difficult to get to while seated in my vehicle.
Guess I also should never leave my vehicle (locked or otherwise) to go take a piss on my way to the range or get gas or anything, either :/
If you don't want our thoughts, don't ask for them. :nono:
Belmont31R
08-30-11, 19:00
With a holster on your hip, a shirt over it, seated, and with a seat belt on its time consuming and hard to get the gun out.
What I did was buy this: http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/Accessories/GCA25.html
And then buy a holster for a LEFT handed shooter so the attachment is on the right side of the holster. Like this: http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/GHS/GHS-RTI.html
I used self taping sheet metal screws, and attached the wheel to the side of the dash where my right knee is about. Obviously every car is different. I can reach the gun with minimal movement. They make holsters with thumb breaks and for a variety of different pistols. With one wheel you can attach many different holsters for different pistols. If your car needs to go into the shop just take the holster off and the wheel doesn't give away what its for. If you sell the car all you have is a few small holes in an out of the way area.
Don't leave a gun in the car except for very short breaks like running into a gas station. I just use the above method if Im going to be in the car for a while or going through a bad area. I have a 350Z with sports seats so its pretty uncomfortable to have a gun on my hip pressing in for very long.
Did I ever say I didn't also carry a pistol on my person?
I don't think I did.......
The whole point of the car gun is to have a better option then the gun carried on my hip, which is rather difficult to get to while seated in my vehicle.
Guess I also should never leave my vehicle (locked or otherwise) to go take a piss on my way to the range or get gas or anything, either :/
Slow your roll man. You asked a question with a relatively open end when it came to the details and you got broad advice. A pistol in your car should be on your person. It needs to be secure enough to withstand a vehicle collision lest it become a missile that could injure you or leave the vehicle. Worse yet, if your weapon gets loose after a road rage crash or some other bad situation, you'll likely be digging for it instead of indexing it. If you're behind the wheel for a living, a cross draw holster on the belt at 11:00 might serve. This is something police officers deal with every day driving around in a patrol car. Even with an exposed holster, it's hard to draw but not impossible to learn. I'd tailor your daily wear to make your weapon accessible while driving and maintain reasonable concealment. You can't have everything all the time.
I will tell you from experience that your best chance of surviving a gun fight while in a car is to hit the gas (provided you left yourself an out) or get out of the car. It's a death trap. Having the gun on your person makes the latter a lot easier.
Smuckatelli
08-30-11, 20:05
With a holster on your hip, a shirt over it, seated, and with a seat belt on its time consuming and hard to get the gun out.
In the car is probably one of the few times when lefties have it easier. My holster sits at 9 o'clock, the holster is uncovered while driving. The seatbelt doesn't get in the way and weapons retention is a lot easier because the door is next to me, not a passenger.
DireWulf's post was spot on.
Direwulf made some good points. I normally carry a G19(on body)
AIWB.But,on a long road trip it's a G26 carried crossdraw at 11:00 in a Mitch Rosen Upper Limit. Easy and quick access and easily covered if I just have to get out of the vehicle for some reason.
RagweedZulu
08-30-11, 23:38
When not riding on my belt, my primary CCW pistol is under my right thigh. Not very tactical, but VERY fast to get to (lots of bad neighborhoods around here) and it goes back into my belt holster while stepping out of the truck. As an officer who rides all day in a cramped patrol car, I can tell you it's TOUGH to draw from a seated position with a seatbelt on. If sitting stationary (on duty) at night or roving slowly through a rough hood, I'll draw my sidearm and have it tucked somewhere close.
Under my drivers seat is a GunVault pistol box cabled to the steel crap under there. If I have two pistols with me or for some reason need to leave my primary for a minute, it the box it goes. Not theftPROOF but it'll slow em down.
Don't leave a gun in the car except for very short breaks like running into a gas station.
Hopefully you have another gun on you at this point because gas stations are a prime place for muggings.
Belmont31R
08-30-11, 23:50
Hopefully you have another gun on you at this point because gas stations are a prime place for muggings.
I just mean like going to the range and back, and they are in the car in cases. I wouldnt leave my CCW in the car.
I just mean like going to the range and back, and they are in the car in cases. I wouldnt leave my CCW in the car.
I thought that's what you meant.
I don't like leaving firearms in a car unattended if I can help it.
Here in South Florida for the last 3 or so years the SOP for
criminals has been to hang out at gas station/convenience store
and when a driver goes in to pay/get cigs etc., they break in and rifle the vehicle leaving with whatever they can. I saw one perp being chased into the streets by guys with a baseball bat after he stole an
IPOD from their vehicle while they were paying for gas inside and getting slurpees/drinks. Turns out he was working that station for
a good portion of that day.
Down here the gas station is the LAST place you want to leave a
firearm in a vehicle for any peroid of time.
This "Pistol has to be on your person" shit is absolutely not practical absolutely all the time. I work in an environment that does not allow the carry of firearms. So my options are break company policy, leave the gun at home, or store it in my vehicle. Option one is a no-go. Option two prevents me from carrying once off work. Option three is the best compromise. Option three also affords me the best/easiest/quickest access to my firearm while driving.
I have no illusions about running to my car during an 'Threat' scenario.
As a matter of fact I often carry two pistols in my vehicle (As someone mentioned earlier) to allow both carry when allowed, and quick access while seated.
All of these people that say carry all the time are blowing smoke up your ass. All CCW laws vary from state to state, in mine I can't carry everywhere.
TC
Airborne12b
08-31-11, 08:17
This "Pistol has to be on your person" shit is absolutely not practical absolutely all the time. I work in an environment that does not allow the carry of firearms. So my options are break company policy, leave the gun at home, or store it in my vehicle. Option one is a no-go. Option two prevents me from carrying once off work. Option three is the best compromise. Option three also affords me the best/easiest/quickest access to my firearm while driving.
I have no illusions about running to my car during an 'Threat' scenario.
As a matter of fact I often carry two pistols in my vehicle (As someone mentioned earlier) to allow both carry when allowed, and quick access while seated.
All of these people that say carry all the time are blowing smoke up your ass. All CCW laws vary from state to state, in mine I can't carry everywhere.
TC
If you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot then it is still on company property, and you ar's likely still violating the company's asinine policy. I am not in any way judging you, I live in Illinois, so I can only carry when I cross the state line (adjoining states all recognize my Utah permit).
NinjaMedic
08-31-11, 08:30
If you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot then it is still on company property, and you ar's likely still violating the company's asinine policy. I am not in any way judging you, I live in Illinois, so I can only carry when I cross the state line (adjoining states all recognize my Utah permit).
In Texas it is now illegal for a company (as of tommorow actually) to prevent you from storing a weapon in your vehicle on company property. My employer also prohibits bringing a weapon into a city building. While storing a weapon in your vehicle is not ideal from a security standpoint there are a huge number of people who see this as an unfortunate necessity. I refuse to get off work at 2 or 3 in the morning in a high crime area and drive around without a weapon.
QuietShootr
08-31-11, 08:36
This "Pistol has to be on your person" shit is absolutely not practical absolutely all the time. I work in an environment that does not allow the carry of firearms. So my options are break company policy, leave the gun at home, or store it in my vehicle. Option one is a no-go. Option two prevents me from carrying once off work. Option three is the best compromise. Option three also affords me the best/easiest/quickest access to my firearm while driving.
I have no illusions about running to my car during an 'Threat' scenario.
As a matter of fact I often carry two pistols in my vehicle (As someone mentioned earlier) to allow both carry when allowed, and quick access while seated.
All of these people that say carry all the time are blowing smoke up your ass. All CCW laws vary from state to state, in mine I can't carry everywhere.
TC
Um, no.
I have chosen the item in blue for as long as I've been working. I can get another job if necessary. I took my gun off ONCE and wound up in an armed robbery. That's not going to happen again.
This "Pistol has to be on your person" shit is absolutely not practical absolutely all the time. I work in an environment that does not allow the carry of firearms. So my options are break company policy, leave the gun at home, or store it in my vehicle. Option one is a no-go. Option two prevents me from carrying once off work. Option three is the best compromise. Option three also affords me the best/easiest/quickest access to my firearm while driving.
I have no illusions about running to my car during an 'Threat' scenario.
As a matter of fact I often carry two pistols in my vehicle (As someone mentioned earlier) to allow both carry when allowed, and quick access while seated.
All of these people that say carry all the time are blowing smoke up your ass. All CCW laws vary from state to state, in mine I can't carry everywhere.
TC
A little emotionally invested in this are you? Look, you can have this any way you want. If your company policy is most important to you, than work around it. Just because you work in a restrictive environment and have to make compromises that lead to less than optimal circumstances, doesn't mean the rest of us are wrong. I've carried a gun for a living for over twenty five years as a law enforcement officer and while working under the auspices of the DOS World Wide Personal Protective Service, so this is not an academic exercise for me. I'm legal to carry in all 50 states and aside from the usual places like courthouses and federal buildings, I carry all the time. Furthermore, I simply refuse to patronize private establishments with "no firearms allowed" signs on the doors. Just because you can't or choose not to doesn't make the rest of us crazy for trying to adhere to sound tactics.
This is a ridiculous argument. There are plenty of places where state law prohibits even licensed CCW carry and anyone who chooses to carry there anyway to be "responsible" is stupid.
I am a strong believer of having the gun on your person at all times and NOT trying to conceal in a vehicle, but for reasons not mentioned or maybe not thought of under generel day to day life so permit me if you will:
I have a friend that went considerable expense a few years ago setting up his vehicle to be able to securely transport his weapons by mounting a truck vault in the bed of his truck, secure rack under the rear seat for a long gun and a small vault on the center hump between the front seat and the dash, all lockable and great thought was put into these to conceal them also but here is the rub, while in transit to the range with a truck full af goodies he was T-boned at an intersection and taken away by ambulance and his vehicle was transported to the wrecking yard, since he was not at fault the wrecking yard was not a secure yard since no criminal investigation was going to be done. A couple of days later when he was back up and running he went to retrieve his weapons and found that ALL of the vaults and such had been removed from the vehicle and everything was gone and of course no one knew anything. When he filled out the police report he was told, point blank by the officer that if his stuff had been visible the officers on scene would have secured the weapons and they would have been returned to him at the first chance possible.
I know that was not the OP's question but food for thought anyway.
With all that being said I do have a cheap nylon holster mounted in between the drivers seat and center console via industrial grade Velcro as an option for long trips.
If you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot then it is still on company property, and you ar's likely still violating the company's asinine policy. I am not in any way judging you, I live in Illinois, so I can only carry when I cross the state line (adjoining states all recognize my Utah permit).
This is is not the case at my facility, it is 100% legal in my case. Of course I suggest each person research their own state laws.
Um, no.
I have chosen the item in blue for as long as I've been working.
I understand your choice, and admire your conviction. But, while choosing to carry a firearm changes your life, it should not define it. While you have drawn a line in the sand, not all of us can. What do you do with your gun when you have to go to court? What about the post office?
I'm not saying anyone is wrong for wanting to carry all the time. What I am saying is that no civilian can carry all the time while at the same time adhering to all state and federal laws.
A little emotionally invested in this are you? Look, you can have this any way you want. If your company policy is most important to you, than work around it. Just because you work in a restrictive environment and have to make compromises that lead to less than optimal circumstances, doesn't mean the rest of us are wrong. I've carried a gun for a living for over twenty five years as a law enforcement officer and while working under the auspices of the DOS World Wide Personal Protective Service, so this is not an academic exercise for me. I'm legal to carry in all 50 states and aside from the usual places like courthouses and federal buildings, I carry all the time. Furthermore, I simply refuse to patronize private establishments with "no firearms allowed" signs on the doors. Just because you can't or choose not to doesn't make the rest of us crazy for trying to adhere to sound tactics.
Again, I never said anyone was wrong. It is nearly impossible to carry all day every day. To make a blanket statement that you do, without qualifying it is bull shit.
Finally, to your first statement. Emotionally Invested, yes I am. I became so the day I decided to carry a firearm. There is a lot more to carrying a gun that just strapping it on. You have to make sure you are emotionally prepared to make a life or death decision when necessary. It's not something I take lightly, and I don't appreciate your attempt to patronize me.
You might also want to consider removing any pro gun/pro brand stickers on your vehicle. I gent at my office has a "Got Sig?" sticker on his vehicle. He seemed surprised that his vehicle was broken into at the fair last year.
This is a ridiculous argument. There are plenty of places where state law prohibits even licensed CCW carry and anyone who chooses to carry there anyway to be "responsible" is stupid.
No one is arguing that point, sir. However, most decisions about where and how you carry are yours to make. If you choose to work for an employer that's anti-gun, that's a personal decision. If you choose to use the services of a US Post Office, again it's your choice. I choose none of these things. I don't patronize anti gun establishments either. Therefore, I'm armed wherever I go. The benefits of living in a state with reasonable firearms laws. Again, my choice.
This is is not the case at my facility, it is 100% legal in my case. Of course I suggest each person research their own state laws.
I understand your choice, and admire your conviction. But, while choosing to carry a firearm changes your life, it should not define it. While you have drawn a line in the sand, not all of us can. What do you do with your gun when you have to go to court? What about the post office?
I'm not saying anyone is wrong for wanting to carry all the time. What I am saying is that no civilian can carry all the time while at the same time adhering to all state and federal laws.
Again, I never said anyone was wrong. It is nearly impossible to carry all day every day. To make a blanket statement that you do, without qualifying it is bull shit.
Finally, to your first statement. Emotionally Invested, yes I am. I became so the day I decided to carry a firearm. There is a lot more to carrying a gun that just strapping it on. You have to make sure you are emotionally prepared to make a life or death decision when necessary. It's not something I take lightly, and I don't appreciate your attempt to patronize me.
Calm down with the lecture. You're pissed because people here can and choose to do something that you apparently are unwilling or unable to do. That's your lot in life. I don't have your problems or restrictions. I work in an environment where carrying guns is encouraged, I live in a state with very few restrictions on carry and both of those things were factors in my decision to work and live here. As I stated earlier, I don't use the services within a post office by choice. I have not been to court since I was police officer, nor a federal building. If I did need to go to either if those places, I would secure my weapon before entering. So, your issues are not everyone's issues and I'm armed wherever I go. It's really that simple.
I don't care what you do. If you want to be this emotional about carrying a gun and rail against those who have a better environment to exercise their rights in, that's fine. I'm perfectly happy where I am. Sounds like you're not.
I probably worked with 35 other cops that had their gun stolen from their cars while running, at the gym, beach, parked in their driveway, etc. They finally started suspending guys for it, which reduced the thefts.
I probably worked with 35 other cops that had their gun stolen from their cars while running, at the gym, beach, parked in their driveway, etc. They finally started suspending guys for it, which reduced the thefts.
Same here.
Not sure about your state, but in mine there are more restrictions on where you can carry than the post office. And no, I'm not moving. :)
Here it's:
All federal buildings, installations, etc., state court houses where the judge has issued a prohibition for that facility, indian reservations, private property that is duely posted, and secure areas of airports. That's it.
With a holster on your hip, a shirt over it, seated, and with a seat belt on its time consuming and hard to get the gun out.
What I did was buy this: http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/Accessories/GCA25.html
And then buy a holster for a LEFT handed shooter so the attachment is on the right side of the holster. Like this: http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/GHS/GHS-RTI.html
I used self taping sheet metal screws, and attached the wheel to the side of the dash where my right knee is about. Obviously every car is different. I can reach the gun with minimal movement. They make holsters with thumb breaks and for a variety of different pistols. With one wheel you can attach many different holsters for different pistols. If your car needs to go into the shop just take the holster off and the wheel doesn't give away what its for. If you sell the car all you have is a few small holes in an out of the way area.
Don't leave a gun in the car except for very short breaks like running into a gas station. I just use the above method if Im going to be in the car for a while or going through a bad area. I have a 350Z with sports seats so its pretty uncomfortable to have a gun on my hip pressing in for very long.
Belmont 31r, thanks this is some useful info for addressing the issue of getting to your CCW while you are actually in the car. I generally keep my CCW on my person, but I've often thought about this issue where it's hard to get to your CCW. It's a challenge for me anyway, carrying an M&P9c in a standard IWB holster (left-handed) at about 8:00, with a shoulder seatbelt on. Seems like the access is significantly slower. This seems like a good workaround, while you're in the car. Of course it means having to unholster/reholster a lot, but there are always trade-offs somewhere when you carry.
Calm down with the lecture. You're pissed because people here can and choose to do something that you apparently are unwilling or unable to do. That's your lot in life. I don't have your problems or restrictions. I work in an environment where carrying guns is encouraged, I live in a state with very few restrictions on carry and both of those things were factors in my decision to work and live here. As I stated earlier, I don't use the services within a post office by choice. I have not been to court since I was police officer, nor a federal building. If I did need to go to either if those places, I would secure my weapon before entering. So, your issues are not everyone's issues and I'm armed wherever I go. It's really that simple.
I don't care what you do. If you want to be this emotional about carrying a gun and rail against those who have a better environment to exercise their rights in, that's fine. I'm perfectly happy where I am. Sounds like you're not.
Thanks for the insight Dr. Phil.
OP: I am familiar G-Code. They make quality gear, the RTI attachment mentioned would work well. It is also compatible with Blackhawk serpa holsters. Like skeletons, everyone seems to have one of those in their closets. Another option would be industrial Velcro, and a Maxpedition Holster insert. I have been using an old Fobus epoxied to the inside of my console for several years. It works well, and for those of us who bow to the pressure of "The Man" is a good option.
By the way, in SC off limit areas are roughly the same as DireWulf posted, with the addition of Banks, Churchs and Private home without expressed permission.
TC
Belmont 31r, thanks this is some useful info for addressing the issue of getting to your CCW while you are actually in the car. I generally keep my CCW on my person, but I've often thought about this issue where it's hard to get to your CCW. It's a challenge for me anyway, carrying an M&P9c in a standard IWB holster (left-handed) at about 8:00, with a shoulder seatbelt on. Seems like the access is significantly slower. This seems like a good workaround, while you're in the car. Of course it means having to unholster/reholster a lot, but there are always trade-offs somewhere when you carry.
That wheel is a nice idea. While my state generally allows for open carry, just about all of the major cities have prohibited it. Having it loaded and visible in a motor vehicle would present issues in those places. If your state allows you to transport a loaded handgun in that manner, that wheel certainly looks like a good mount.
4thPointOfContact
08-31-11, 14:58
When I had a sports car, it had some Very dedicated racing seats in it and my fat butt would barely fit. Handgun and even wallet were both No-Go's as far as keeping them on my person while driving.
My solution was a Glock brand sport holster.
http://images1.opticsplanet.com/180-180/opplanet-glock-sport-combat-holster.png
secured to the transmission tunnel with the same rubber expanding anchors many car manufacturers use for cargo nets and such accessories. Slowly drill an appropriate size hole, insert the anchor, attach the holster and turn the screw to tighen and expand the rubber on the anchor. When I sold the car, I left the anchors in and you could barely tell they were there.
The cargo net holders I used were from Subaru, if I recall.
That wheel is a nice idea. While my state generally allows for open carry, just about all of the major cities have prohibited it. Having it loaded and visible in a motor vehicle would present issues in those places. If your state allows you to transport a loaded handgun in that manner, that wheel certainly looks like a good mount.
I'd add that getting stopped by law enforcement, in a dark place with an exposed gun, might present some interesting challenges as well.
I'd add that getting stopped by law enforcement, in a dark place with an exposed gun might present some interesting challenges as well.
Absolutely. Been there done that and I'm sure you have too.;)
However, where it's legal some will do it. At least it's secure and not laying on the seat next to them. About two years ago I walked past a car with its windows rolled down on the way into, you guessed it, Walmart and saw a Beretta (turned out to be a .40) sitting on the passenger seat. No holster, or cover of any kind. I called the sheriff's department and they came out and had a word with the kid who owned the car. He "forgot to throw it under the seat" before he went inside. True story.
rolltide13
09-01-11, 03:27
You might also want to consider removing any pro gun/pro brand stickers on your vehicle. I gent at my office has a "Got Sig?" sticker on his vehicle. He seemed surprised that his vehicle was broken into at the fair last year.
Trucks and SUVS are also more likely to get broken into. A friend of mine has had 3 guns in the last year stolen from his 2500 hd...you think he would learn. I always wonder why people put stickers on their car, they might as well leave the windows rolled down. If leaving your handgun in the car is the only option maybe your should consider thishttp://consolevault.com/ford-f150-flow-through-floor-console-2004-2008.html
QuietShootr
09-01-11, 07:40
This is is not the case at my facility, it is 100% legal in my case. Of course I suggest each person research their own state laws.
I understand your choice, and admire your conviction. But, while choosing to carry a firearm changes your life, it should not define it. While you have drawn a line in the sand, not all of us can. What do you do with your gun when you have to go to court? What about the post office?
I'm not saying anyone is wrong for wanting to carry all the time. What I am saying is that no civilian can carry all the time while at the same time adhering to all state and federal laws.
True. 'nuff said.
Wow, he asks for some info on specific questions and everyone jumps in with their own agenda and turn this thread that could have been informational into shit.
Great job!
Like a bunch of little brats....
Wow, he asks for some info on specific questions and everyone jumps in with their own agenda and turn this thread that could have been informational into shit.
Great job!
Like a bunch of little brats....
No, he asked a vague question that could have been interpreted as needing quick access storage or hard box style storage for unattended vehicle purposes and he got a smattering of answers and your attempt at backseat moderating. When he didn't hear what he wanted to hear, he got pissed and left the discussion. It happens here often. Nice try though.
Wow, he asks for some info on specific questions and everyone jumps in with their own agenda and turn this thread that could have been informational into shit.
Great job!
Like a bunch of little brats....
You have no idea as to whether or not the OP is simply reading this thread, found his answers or is absorbing the info and choosing to not post because he has nothing more to say.
You clearly have no idea as to whom the information subsequent to the OP's last post is helping or not, as evidenced by your above post.
Instead, the thread simply isn't going the way that dougwg would have it go. Wah.
Apparrently that conclusion snapped something in your mind and made you annoint yourself with the title "M4C Hall Moniter" -- doubtless accompanied by some ritual involving sacred oils and chanting -- and needlessly chide a bunch of people for doing a whole bunch of nothing wrong by any valid measure (i.e., forum posting policies), in a fit of feeling the compulsive need to Say Something instead of Having Something to Say.
If you have a question related to this topic you would like to have answered, you should have asked it. Now, you may not.
If you had a specific post within this thread that you objected to, or felt was the center of gravity of an actual derail or internet slapfest (of which there is exactly NO evidence of having ocurred), you could have hit the Report Post button. You clearly did not.
I strongly suggest that you consider exercising the Report Post option next time around, in lieu of doing what you have, which is create a completely stupid derail where none existed prior.
Now, shoosh.
The only answer in this thread should be on your person. Anything else is reckless, naive, and useless.
I have seen so many unsecured firearms stolen from cars and homes (and not a few businesses) that I firmly believe that leaving an unsecure gun laying around is completely retarded.
Folks who take the RTKABA seriously know that most bad guys either steal thier guns or straw purchase them.
Where do you think these stolen guns come from? Arming bad guys is to be part of the problem. To quote an old movie "You're either part of the solution, or part of the problem, stop being part of the ****ing problem".
If the OP is going to have a car gun in a car mounted holster, well, rock on. For those times that we are away from the car and have to leave the gun behind I STRONGLY suggest something like this be mounted in the car;
http://www.titangunvault.com/
or this;
http://www.center-of-mass.com/Store_InCarGunSafe.htm
Coming back to your car to find your gun stolen only sucks less than coming back and finding the bad guy in your car, with your gun.
RagweedZulu
09-01-11, 20:35
Coming back to your car to find your gun stolen only sucks less than coming back and finding the bad guy in your car, with your gun.
Or with your girl!:jester:
Smuckatelli
09-01-11, 22:44
The only answer in this thread should be on your person. Anything else is reckless, naive, and useless.
+1, I agree with most of the thread but this one clears all of the smoke. It's all about retention, everything else gives the gun grabbers fuel to limit our rights.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-01-11, 22:51
I used to tinker with car guns and car holsters, etc. I generally carry a Kahr Pm9 or an Airweight in my pocket in an Uncle Mikes or Nemisis holster. I usually just take the airweight out of my pocket and tuck it under my right leg. If there is a wreck it will probably hold unless I flip. and nothing is faster to deploy if yo-yos attack.
Smuckatelli
09-01-11, 22:57
But, while choosing to carry a firearm changes your life, it should not define it.
I agree with all of your post except the above. IMO when you decide to legally carry, it has to define your life. When you carry you take on the responsibility to take a life, there is nothing more life defining than this.
I think when we read of stories where firearms have been stolen because they have been left unsecured, we could be seeing the result where the individual did not allow the firearm to define his or her life. If you carry a weapon, you must work with the system there is too much at stake.
If the doo doo hits the fan I would like to be able legally to protect my family. By not living weapon retention, we are giving the gungrabbers fuel to take away our rights to legally protect our families.
RagweedZulu
09-01-11, 22:59
I used to tinker with car guns and car holsters, etc. I generally carry a Kahr Pm9 or an Airweight in my pocket in an Uncle Mikes or Nemisis holster. I usually just take the airweight out of my pocket and tuck it under my right leg. If there is a wreck it will probably hold unless I flip. and nothing is faster to deploy if yo-yos attack.
I agree and carry the same way often. Those that claim it ALWAYS has to be on your person don't reside in the real world. It would be nice, but as mentioned above, there are times when each of us may be in a place where it has to be secured in a vehicle. I think that's what the OP was originally asking about.
When I pull up to an ATM at night, I'll be damned if I'm going to have my weapon holstered on my person. Head on a swivel, pistol under right thigh. Same rule when driving through jack-prone neighborhoods with frequent stop lights. To each his own, but many of us feel better with our weapons more readily available. Digging under a concealment garment and around a seatbelt when a Nogoodnick is tapping on your window with a knife is worse than awkward, it's foolish.
I agree and carry the same way often. Those that claim it ALWAYS has to be on your person don't reside in the real world. It would be nice, but as mentioned above, there are times when each of us may be in a place where it has to be secured in a vehicle. I think that's what the OP was originally asking about.
When I pull up to an ATM at night, I'll be damned if I'm going to have my weapon holstered on my person. Head on a swivel, pistol under right thigh. Same rule when driving through jack-prone neighborhoods with frequent stop lights. To each his own, but many of us feel better with our weapons more readily available. Digging under a concealment garment and around a seatbelt when a Nogoodnick is tapping on your window with a knife is worse than awkward, it's foolish.
I live in the "real world" and I think that you're reading into this "always on your person" statement a little too much. So let's clarify this a bit before more drama ensues and leave out the "secured gun in an unattended vehicle" discussion for a moment. I think that as a police officer you would agree that having a handgun in a holster on your hip is preferable to having it in some kind of hard mount on the console or between the seat. Obviously, something in a hardbox under the seat is useless for all intents and purposes in an ambush. If you need to get out of the car, which next to mashing the gas pedal, is the best way of surviving a car ambush in most situations according to what we as officers have learned in the last 30 or so years, you'll likely want that gun on you to expedite the escape process.
I have been ambushed in my patrol car, while cruising a neighborhood and spotlighting alleyways looking for what we believe was a phony suspicious person, and it didn't take my partner and I long to realize that we had to get out of the car. The suspect was never found and the car was hit 14 times with .223. Getting away or getting out is paramount. The kicker to this story is that my partner crashed the car after we began taking the hits. He tried to hit the gas and get out of the ambush, but since we had just come around a corner, he was still in the process of getting the car straightened out and lost control. We struck a parked truck and went sideways into a building at approximately 35 miles per hour according to our vehicular crimes reconstructionists, which caused the Ford Crown Vic's airbags to deploy and emergency fuel pump cutoff to activate and kill the fuel to the engine.
This is a 35 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg5FS35FwZY
This is a 40 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLKx2LrLuM
Throw in some incoming fire and you get some idea of what we were dealing with. If my gun was under my thigh, where do you think it would have been? I had to crawl across the front seat and exit out of the driver's door. Those of you who believe that a gun tucked under your thigh is safe "unless the car rolls over" are incorrect. I repeat: Dead wrong. Your gun will be someplace else even in a 35 MPH impact; I promise you this. I needed three stitches in my head after the metal clip board/box between the seats hit me above the ear. Everything will fly around in the car. Remember, that even if you're rolling slow, another car hitting you at 25 or 35 MPH is still going to result in a crash similar to this.
I'm not making a blanket statement and saying that there are not times when you need to have a handgun in your hand or in a hardmount. However, there needs to be some thought put into it because it presents serious issues. It will be far more likely to have to hit the gas than it will be to return fire as clearing the kill zone in a vehicle ambush is job #1.
On that note, when I'm at the drive up ATM, I have my weapon on my hip, truck in gear, foot on the brake. The order of operations for me is gas pedal first then assess my options. You have a serious hill to surmount to get a gun out of a holster or even raised to the sights if it's already out, to engage a drawn, pointed or firing weapon. I'm not trying to pontificate, but I'd like to pass on these observations because I feel that they could help some people make better choices or evaluate their tactics. At the least, I hope it results in a good discussion.
had to leave my j-frame in my car at the airport. I put it in an old sock in the trunk. so even if they did bust my trunk open, it would be unlikely that they'd go for the sock. Pretty well secured lot too. Generally i prefer not to leave guns in the car for any reason.
I'm not making a blanket statement and saying that there are not times when you need to have a handgun in your hand or in a hardmount. However, there needs to be some thought put into it because it presents serious issues. It will be far more likely to have to hit the gas than it will be to return fire as clearing the kill zone in a vehicle ambush is job #1.
I gotta say, all of the advice given in your post, DireWulf, is great infomation. I recommend it be closely read by those that may disagree.
Airborne12b
09-02-11, 07:34
I live in the "real world" and I think that you're reading into this "always on your person" statement a little too much. So let's clarify this a bit before more drama ensues and leave out the "secured gun in an unattended vehicle" discussion for a moment. I think that as a police officer you would agree that having a handgun in a holster on your hip is preferable to having it in some kind of hard mount on the console or between the seat. Obviously, something in a hardbox under the seat is useless for all intents and purposes in an ambush. If you need to get out of the car, which next to mashing the gas pedal, is the best way of surviving a car ambush in most situations according to what we as officers have learned in the last 30 or so years, you'll likely want that gun on you to expedite the escape process.
I have been ambushed in my patrol car, while cruising a neighborhood and spotlighting alleyways looking for what we believe was a phony suspicious person, and it didn't take my partner and I long to realize that we had to get out of the car. The suspect was never found and the car was hit 14 times with .223. Getting away or getting out is paramount. The kicker to this story is that my partner crashed the car after we began taking the hits. He tried to hit the gas and get out of the ambush, but since we had just come around a corner, he was still in the process of getting the car straightened out and lost control. We struck a parked truck and went sideways into a building at approximately 35 miles per hour according to our vehicular crimes reconstructionists, which caused the Ford Crown Vic's airbags to deploy and emergency fuel pump cutoff to activate and kill the fuel to the engine.
This is a 35 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg5FS35FwZY
This is a 40 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLKx2LrLuM
Throw in some incoming fire and you get some idea of what we were dealing with. If my gun was under my thigh, where do you think it would have been? I had to crawl across the front seat and exit out of the driver's door. Those of you who believe that a gun tucked under your thigh is safe "unless the car rolls over" are incorrect. I repeat: Dead wrong. Your gun will be someplace else even in a 35 MPH impact; I promise you this. I needed three stitches in my head after the metal clip board/box between the seats hit me above the ear. Everything will fly around in the car. Remember, that even if you're rolling slow, another car hitting you at 25 or 35 MPH is still going to result in a crash similar to this.
I'm not making a blanket statement and saying that there are not times when you need to have a handgun in your hand or in a hardmount. However, there needs to be some thought put into it because it presents serious issues. It will be far more likely to have to hit the gas than it will be to return fire as clearing the kill zone in a vehicle ambush is job #1.
On that note, when I'm at the drive up ATM, I have my weapon on my hip, truck in gear, foot on the brake. The order of operations for me is gas pedal first then assess my options. You have a serious hill to surmount to get a gun out of a holster or even raised to the sights if it's already out, to engage a drawn, pointed or firing weapon. I'm not trying to pontificate, but I'd like to pass on these observations because I feel that they could help some people make better choices or evaluate their tactics. At the least, I hope it results in a good discussion.
Great post! The one ambush I have been in resulted in similar experiences, i.e. rifles and gear all over the damned place, granted we were being lit up with small arms and rpg fire.
I agree with all of your post except the above. IMO when you decide to legally carry, it has to define your life. When you carry you take on the responsibility to take a life, there is nothing more life defining than this.
I think when we read of stories where firearms have been stolen because they have been left unsecured, we could be seeing the result where the individual did not allow the firearm to define his or her life. If you carry a weapon, you must work with the system there is too much at stake.
If the doo doo hits the fan I would like to be able legally to protect my family. By not living weapon retention, we are giving the gungrabbers fuel to take away our rights to legally protect our families.
Hey, we're all friends here, and I think if we were having this conversation in person, we would find that we agree much more than we disagree. Unfortunately, this method of communication is less than ideal. The context of statements are often miss-interpreted. I'm not saying the owning and carrying firearms isn't an important part of my life. What I am saying is that owning and carrying firearms isn't THE most important thing in my life. I view a firearm as a tool. In a life or death situation I might prefer that tool, but I can make use of a different tool if necessary.
Also, I don't want anyone to mistake my thoughts on carrying. I do carry everywhere I can. If I have to leave my firearm in my vehicle, I certainly don't leave it in view. I have a semi-secure compartment that I keep it in. I also don't advertise that I'm carrying. I actually park my vehicle outside my office window. That is the only time I leave it in the vehicle for any length of time.
SNIP So let's clarify this a bit before more drama ensues and leave out the "secured gun in an unattended vehicle" discussion for a moment. You have a serious hill to surmount to get a gun out of a holster or even raised to the sights if it's already out, to engage a drawn, pointed or firing weapon. I'm not trying to pontificate, but I'd like to pass on these observations because I feel that they could help some people make better choices or evaluate their tactics. At the least, I hope it results in a good discussion.
Sounds like a harrowing situation. It brings up a good point as well. Your duty as an officer was/is to operate in Fringe areas. As a civilian, I avoid Fringe areas. This greatly affects your carry routines. We can all learn from experiences such as this.
TC
QuietShootr
09-02-11, 08:40
I live in the "real world" and I think that you're reading into this "always on your person" statement a little too much. So let's clarify this a bit before more drama ensues and leave out the "secured gun in an unattended vehicle" discussion for a moment. I think that as a police officer you would agree that having a handgun in a holster on your hip is preferable to having it in some kind of hard mount on the console or between the seat. Obviously, something in a hardbox under the seat is useless for all intents and purposes in an ambush. If you need to get out of the car, which next to mashing the gas pedal, is the best way of surviving a car ambush in most situations according to what we as officers have learned in the last 30 or so years, you'll likely want that gun on you to expedite the escape process.
I have been ambushed in my patrol car, while cruising a neighborhood and spotlighting alleyways looking for what we believe was a phony suspicious person, and it didn't take my partner and I long to realize that we had to get out of the car. The suspect was never found and the car was hit 14 times with .223. Getting away or getting out is paramount. The kicker to this story is that my partner crashed the car after we began taking the hits. He tried to hit the gas and get out of the ambush, but since we had just come around a corner, he was still in the process of getting the car straightened out and lost control. We struck a parked truck and went sideways into a building at approximately 35 miles per hour according to our vehicular crimes reconstructionists, which caused the Ford Crown Vic's airbags to deploy and emergency fuel pump cutoff to activate and kill the fuel to the engine.
This is a 35 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg5FS35FwZY
This is a 40 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLKx2LrLuM
Throw in some incoming fire and you get some idea of what we were dealing with. If my gun was under my thigh, where do you think it would have been? I had to crawl across the front seat and exit out of the driver's door. Those of you who believe that a gun tucked under your thigh is safe "unless the car rolls over" are incorrect. I repeat: Dead wrong. Your gun will be someplace else even in a 35 MPH impact; I promise you this. I needed three stitches in my head after the metal clip board/box between the seats hit me above the ear. Everything will fly around in the car. Remember, that even if you're rolling slow, another car hitting you at 25 or 35 MPH is still going to result in a crash similar to this.
I'm not making a blanket statement and saying that there are not times when you need to have a handgun in your hand or in a hardmount. However, there needs to be some thought put into it because it presents serious issues. It will be far more likely to have to hit the gas than it will be to return fire as clearing the kill zone in a vehicle ambush is job #1.
On that note, when I'm at the drive up ATM, I have my weapon on my hip, truck in gear, foot on the brake. The order of operations for me is gas pedal first then assess my options. You have a serious hill to surmount to get a gun out of a holster or even raised to the sights if it's already out, to engage a drawn, pointed or firing weapon. I'm not trying to pontificate, but I'd like to pass on these observations because I feel that they could help some people make better choices or evaluate their tactics. At the least, I hope it results in a good discussion.
Guys, pay ****ing attention to this guy.
Pistol under the thigh will result in a missing pistol. And ambushes are often initiated with a vehicle hitting yours - and guess what happens? The pistol goes on the floor, often underneath the pedals. I've done this in EVOC training several times. Even a light love tap will almost always result in the pistol going on the floor.
Nephrology
09-02-11, 08:51
I've really never understood this debate too much...
In my mind there are 3 places for a pistol not in use -
1. Loaded, on my hip
2. Loaded, on my desk or nightstand at my place of residence, within arm's reach
3. Unloaded, in the safe.
Car carry sucks, yes, and is uncomfortable, yes, and may not even be the best way to draw, yes. Carry it slightly forward of your hip (2-3 o'clock) and it will help. Keeping a loaded handgun underneath your leg, muzzle pointed at your posterior knee bones and ligaments? Hell no. Totally unsafe.
When I have to leave a gun in the car, I make sure to do it in a SECURE parking lot (i.e. where you pay for entry and is impossible to otherwise access, and even then only at places where I cannot carry like a hospital).
I live in the "real world" and I think that you're reading into this "always on your person" statement a little too much. So let's clarify this a bit before more drama ensues and leave out the "secured gun in an unattended vehicle" discussion for a moment. I think that as a police officer you would agree that having a handgun in a holster on your hip is preferable to having it in some kind of hard mount on the console or between the seat. Obviously, something in a hardbox under the seat is useless for all intents and purposes in an ambush. If you need to get out of the car, which next to mashing the gas pedal, is the best way of surviving a car ambush in most situations according to what we as officers have learned in the last 30 or so years, you'll likely want that gun on you to expedite the escape process.
I have been ambushed in my patrol car, while cruising a neighborhood and spotlighting alleyways looking for what we believe was a phony suspicious person, and it didn't take my partner and I long to realize that we had to get out of the car. The suspect was never found and the car was hit 14 times with .223. Getting away or getting out is paramount. The kicker to this story is that my partner crashed the car after we began taking the hits. He tried to hit the gas and get out of the ambush, but since we had just come around a corner, he was still in the process of getting the car straightened out and lost control. We struck a parked truck and went sideways into a building at approximately 35 miles per hour according to our vehicular crimes reconstructionists, which caused the Ford Crown Vic's airbags to deploy and emergency fuel pump cutoff to activate and kill the fuel to the engine.
This is a 35 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg5FS35FwZY
This is a 40 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLKx2LrLuM
Throw in some incoming fire and you get some idea of what we were dealing with. If my gun was under my thigh, where do you think it would have been? I had to crawl across the front seat and exit out of the driver's door. Those of you who believe that a gun tucked under your thigh is safe "unless the car rolls over" are incorrect. I repeat: Dead wrong. Your gun will be someplace else even in a 35 MPH impact; I promise you this. I needed three stitches in my head after the metal clip board/box between the seats hit me above the ear. Everything will fly around in the car. Remember, that even if you're rolling slow, another car hitting you at 25 or 35 MPH is still going to result in a crash similar to this.
I'm not making a blanket statement and saying that there are not times when you need to have a handgun in your hand or in a hardmount. However, there needs to be some thought put into it because it presents serious issues. It will be far more likely to have to hit the gas than it will be to return fire as clearing the kill zone in a vehicle ambush is job #1.
On that note, when I'm at the drive up ATM, I have my weapon on my hip, truck in gear, foot on the brake. The order of operations for me is gas pedal first then assess my options. You have a serious hill to surmount to get a gun out of a holster or even raised to the sights if it's already out, to engage a drawn, pointed or firing weapon. I'm not trying to pontificate, but I'd like to pass on these observations because I feel that they could help some people make better choices or evaluate their tactics. At the least, I hope it results in a good discussion. If you don't mind, what city did that happen in?
jasonhgross
09-02-11, 09:17
On your hip, attached to your belt, just like it always is. Why change?
RagweedZulu
09-02-11, 10:15
had to leave my j-frame in my car at the airport. I put it in an old sock in the trunk. so even if they did bust my trunk open, it would be unlikely that they'd go for the sock. Pretty well secured lot too. Generally i prefer not to leave guns in the car for any reason.
That's a good one! I've done similar once, crumpling a small semi auto in a McDonald's bag the kids had left in the trunk. It was the best thing going at the time.
I've also worked a couple surveillance details where carrying on the belt wasn't practical. I put my pistol in a similar fast food bag. It's amazing how fast it is to access and how little people notice. I was able to walk parks, the mall and through other crowded areas with my G23 practically in a shooting grip. Urban camouflage I guess.
If you don't mind, what city did that happen in?
Phoenix metro area.
Great post! The one ambush I have been in resulted in similar experiences, i.e. rifles and gear all over the damned place, granted we were being lit up with small arms and rpg fire.
I was hoping some OIF or OEF guys would chime in. There are literally thousands of men and women who have survived ambushes overseas that were a thousand times worse than what I dealt with. I'll bet every one of them will attest to how quickly the situation can deteriorate even if your 100% prepared for it and waiting for it.
I've since been in a few minor ambushes working WPPS jobs overseas. Thankfully we were able to power through them with no casualties or need to stop. Often, I never saw any indication that an organized attack was underway exept the sound of rifle fire. Someone in the line would report incoming fire and we would haul ass. I definitely got lucky in that respect. Others didn't. Any of you guys who ran MSR Irish in the good ole' days know what I mean. Having your kit properly set up and secure can literally mean the difference between life and death in something like this. Especially when things start to go wrong.
RepeatDefender
09-02-11, 10:27
I'm faced with this same problem on a daily basis. I work for a gov't authority and firearms are not allowed in the building(s). So rather than be disarmed on the way to and from work, I choose to lock one in the car at our facility.
It's not the best choice, but the only one I can make and maintain my employment here.
RagweedZulu
09-02-11, 10:36
I live in the "real world" and I think that you're reading into this "always on your person" statement a little too much. So let's clarify this a bit before more drama ensues and leave out the "secured gun in an unattended vehicle" discussion for a moment. I think that as a police officer you would agree that having a handgun in a holster on your hip is preferable to having it in some kind of hard mount on the console or between the seat. Obviously, something in a hardbox under the seat is useless for all intents and purposes in an ambush. If you need to get out of the car, which next to mashing the gas pedal, is the best way of surviving a car ambush in most situations according to what we as officers have learned in the last 30 or so years, you'll likely want that gun on you to expedite the escape process.
I have been ambushed in my patrol car, while cruising a neighborhood and spotlighting alleyways looking for what we believe was a phony suspicious person, and it didn't take my partner and I long to realize that we had to get out of the car. The suspect was never found and the car was hit 14 times with .223. Getting away or getting out is paramount. The kicker to this story is that my partner crashed the car after we began taking the hits. He tried to hit the gas and get out of the ambush, but since we had just come around a corner, he was still in the process of getting the car straightened out and lost control. We struck a parked truck and went sideways into a building at approximately 35 miles per hour according to our vehicular crimes reconstructionists, which caused the Ford Crown Vic's airbags to deploy and emergency fuel pump cutoff to activate and kill the fuel to the engine.
This is a 35 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg5FS35FwZY
This is a 40 MPH impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLKx2LrLuM
Throw in some incoming fire and you get some idea of what we were dealing with. If my gun was under my thigh, where do you think it would have been? I had to crawl across the front seat and exit out of the driver's door. Those of you who believe that a gun tucked under your thigh is safe "unless the car rolls over" are incorrect. I repeat: Dead wrong. Your gun will be someplace else even in a 35 MPH impact; I promise you this. I needed three stitches in my head after the metal clip board/box between the seats hit me above the ear. Everything will fly around in the car. Remember, that even if you're rolling slow, another car hitting you at 25 or 35 MPH is still going to result in a crash similar to this.
I'm not making a blanket statement and saying that there are not times when you need to have a handgun in your hand or in a hardmount. However, there needs to be some thought put into it because it presents serious issues. It will be far more likely to have to hit the gas than it will be to return fire as clearing the kill zone in a vehicle ambush is job #1.
On that note, when I'm at the drive up ATM, I have my weapon on my hip, truck in gear, foot on the brake. The order of operations for me is gas pedal first then assess my options. You have a serious hill to surmount to get a gun out of a holster or even raised to the sights if it's already out, to engage a drawn, pointed or firing weapon. I'm not trying to pontificate, but I'd like to pass on these observations because I feel that they could help some people make better choices or evaluate their tactics. At the least, I hope it results in a good discussion.
Direwulf, I'm glad you made it out of your situation intact. Your method worked for you and mine have worked for me. Four times unfortunately. Once similar to your ambush, several of us were fired upon in a GD indian reservation. everyone took rounds and everyone EE'd out in vehicles until we could rally and come back with a plan. Nobody crashed that I recall. My Smith & Wesson was under my right thigh at the time.
I've been hit three times in high speed pursuits, once after coming out into a felony stop situation, guns drawn. The young narcotics merchant then jumped back in his car and continued the pursuit. Right or wrong, all I had time to do was hop in, tuck my Smith under right thigh and drive. After getting slammed (at about 45 mph speed difference) by a sheriff's deputy, that hunk of steel was still there. Maybe I just have bigger thighs or a stickier seat than you. :)
My point being, each scenario is different for every one of us. There is no "always" or "never". I'm going to disagree with you about off duty carry when driving bad neighborhoods though. I agree with the "drive first rule", but again, not always practical. Day before yesterday I was at a drive up ATM. Truck in gear, pistol near right hand. No way can I get it unholstered in time to use if I needed it in the statistical 1.5 seconds. In front of me was a local homeless man and wife sifting through trash cans about 20-30 feet away. Not a threat, but if my ONLY action plan was to stomp the gas when attacked, two innocent if not smelly individuals would be dead or injured. The only thing I'm objecting to on this thread is guys saying it's ALWAYS gotta be done this way, or NEVER do it that way. I've developed my methods over 40 years of armed experience. I'm not likely to change easily any time soon. Be safe out there if you are still on the road, buddy.
Nephrology
09-02-11, 10:49
There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to carrying firearms, whether it be caliber, model of handgun, number of spare magazines, where on the body you carry....
I am glad that here we can discuss such issues like civilized human beings and not resort to name calling as happens on TOS.
RagweedZulu
09-02-11, 11:01
There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to carrying firearms, whether it be caliber, model of handgun, number of spare magazines, where on the body you carry....
I am glad that here we can discuss such issues like civilized human beings and not resort to name calling as happens on TOS.
The EXACT reason I stopped visiting another Austrian pistol-based forum. Well, that and the ridiculous questions. I really think we're out of topics when I read "Can my cat accidentally shoot my G19?"
had to leave my j-frame in my car at the airport. I put it in an old sock in the trunk. so even if they did bust my trunk open, it would be unlikely that they'd go for the sock. Pretty well secured lot too. Generally i prefer not to leave guns in the car for any reason.
Sometimes it's not just a vehicle break in, but a car theft that we're talking about.
Guys, pay ****ing attention to this guy.
Pistol under the thigh will result in a missing pistol. And ambushes are often initiated with a vehicle hitting yours - and guess what happens? The pistol goes on the floor, often underneath the pedals. I've done this in EVOC training several times. Even a light love tap will almost always result in the pistol going on the floor.
And of course, that's exactly what happened in the FBI Miami shootout, causing Agent Manauzzi to have to hide instead of fight.
Sometimes it's not just a vehicle break in, but a car theft that we're talking about.
And of course, that's exactly what happened in the FBI Miami shootout, causing Agent Manauzzi to have to hide instead of fight.
The lessons of that gunfight were so far reaching and I'm glad you brought it up. I was a wet behind the ears patrolman when that occurred and I still use its lessons when teaching academy recruits. When you look at things like Newhall and Miami and the painful lessons learned it's incumbent upon us to remember and ensure that the people who paid the price for those teachings are not forgotten. If one person survives from a blood lesson learned, then at least we know we're doing our jobs. That is why I teach at a police academy. I want people to learn from those of us who lived the lesson.
The lessons of that gunfight were so far reaching and I'm glad you brought it up. I was a wet behind the ears patrolman when that occurred and I still use its lessons when teaching academy recruits. When you look at things like Newhall and Miami and the painful lessons learned it's incumbent upon us to remember and ensure that the people who paid the price for those teachings are not forgotten. If one person survives from a blood lesson learned, then at least we know we're doing our jobs. That is why I teach at a police academy. I want people to learn from those of us who lived the lesson.
I had been working on a task force with several bureau guys before then, and it definitely changed their training, tactics, and equipment, for the better. "Hey we're going after some heavily armed bank robbers and murderers"! "OK, let me get my 5 shot J frame and I'll be right there!"
As one of the agents I worked with told me, before that, they were indoctrinated to believe "we could just announce ourselves, and criminals would quake in their shoes at the ghost of J Edgar".
I was hoping some OIF or OEF guys would chime in. There are literally thousands of men and women who have survived ambushes overseas that were a thousand times worse than what I dealt with. I'll bet every one of them will attest to how quickly the situation can deteriorate even if your 100% prepared for it and waiting for it.
I've since been in a few minor ambushes working WPPS jobs overseas. Thankfully we were able to power through them with no casualties or need to stop. Often, I never saw any indication that an organized attack was underway exept the sound of rifle fire. Someone in the line would report incoming fire and we would haul ass. I definitely got lucky in that respect. Others didn't. Any of you guys who ran MSR Irish in the good ole' days know what I mean. Having your kit properly set up and secure can literally mean the difference between life and death in something like this. Especially when things start to go wrong.
It's a bit more comforting when you're behind a 3 inch thick armor windshield, depending on the type of attack. All ammo cans were always strapped down with 550 cord, which could be quickly cut and sent up to the hatch if needed. Unfortunately there weren't many options for securing an M4 in 1114's except carried in your arms or sitting loose by your leg.
Sometimes it's not just a vehicle break in, but a car theft that we're talking about.
true... but i doubt my clunker would be much of a theft target. they would have had to pay to get the car out of the lot too, and probably ended up on camera.
but yeah... can't plan for every contingency, but driving in a 26 year old car down to denver in the middle of the night is something i'd rather do with a gun on me.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.