View Full Version : Does anyone have any tips regarding Pre-Ban Lowers?
So, I'm moving to an AWB state. I know. It sucks. Anyway, I'm looking for a quick run down of things to look for / avoid when it comes to buying a Pre-Ban lower, as I've never had to deal with this BS before.
Obviously, fewer companies manufactured lowers before '94. I'm thinking Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, and Olympic might be the most common Pre-ban lowers available. Does the general rule of "a lower is a lower" still apply to Pre-Bans? What do I "not know that I don't know?"
PS. If anyone has any current tips on a high quality piece available right now that would be much appreciated too.
The Colt pre-bans with the receiver blocks won't accept FA bolt carriers. Small pin versions are a lot more convenient than large pin since you don't need a conversion pin. I had one of each; others (AFAIK) were all small pin.
The Armalite I still have (actually my son now has it) seems to be pretty decent, but could stand a premium LPK. It's not drop free with some PMags.
ETA: Don't move.
Just out of curiosity, if you buy a pre ban lower in ca what exactly do you get to do that you can't with a post ban lower? Don't need a bullet button?
Super Mall Ninja
08-31-11, 00:51
Just out of curiosity, if you buy a pre ban lower in ca what exactly do you get to do that you can't with a post ban lower? Don't need a bullet button?
Pre-ban doesn't mean anything in Cali.
a0cake,
I have a Colt preban that I bought new in '92. I used it to get familiar with before entering the Marines. From the military to college to cali it sat unused at my parents home. Work still gives me an ar and I live in a free state now. I have been thinking of selling it to fund a purchase for a family member.
I dont want to violate any forum rules so PM me if interested and I can give your more info.
Two things about pre-bans:
1) There were a lot of cast lowers on the market at that time.
Know specifically who made what at what point in time.
2) If someone knows you are buying a pre-ban because its pre-ban and you want it so you can have at least something in a prison state, they are most likely going to **** you up the ass dry and not even have the curtesy to look you in the back of the head while doing it.
I've seen them go for upwards of $600 just for an empty used receiver in good shape. The rare NIB or like NIB that come up occasionally can hit close to a grand.
You'll almost never see one under $300-$400 regardless of condition. Just for an old rifle receiver that isn't even rare in the sense that there are a jillion AR recievers out there currently, and they aren't really a collectable or otherwise any better than something the current age.
This is not to say everyone is going to put the spurs to you, but don't expect to find anything even close to the range that a new manufacturer receiver will cost. At minimum I'd expect triple the cost over new, and that would probably be a good deal.
Oh, and if a factor where you're going, if pre-ban mags can be had cheap where you are currently at grab a pile because you'll likely take a pounding on those too if you end up having to buy them in state.
Though there are a lot of nice folks out in the free world who will do some decent and fair deals on them, so it's not like you're totally boned. Just the people from within the state selling to others in the state tend to try for an advantage.
QuietShootr
08-31-11, 09:15
Try this:
Why don't you put out a post telling any member who has a pre-ban Colt or similar quality lower that you will replace their old lower with a brand-spanking new Colt, LMT, or BCM complete? If I had any that were eligible I'd do it for you.
Preban lowers are nice to have, but hardly a necessity for owning AR's here. You can modify your current rifle(s) to meet the AWB provisions for less than the added cost of a preban lower. If you can share your current configuration(s) and the state where you're moving to, we can give you some more specific suggestions. Some of the modifications are pretty simple DIY projects.
On the subject of preban lowers, you'll see them advertised for two or three times the value of a normal complete lower. Some of the sellers are simply trying to rip-off unsuspecting buyers. Personally, I can't justify the huge premiums, but would consider anything in the $350-$500 range as reasonable for a complete preban lower. The guys trying to get $900 for a stripped preban should be taken out back to the woodshed.
Thank you for all the replies thus far. To whoever suggested modifying the rifle to meet the AWB standards instead of getting a pre-ban lower: I have thought about this and ultimately decided that I have to suck it up and get a pre-ban lower and pre-ban mags. I don't mind pinning the buttstock in place as I always shoot with it fully extended as intended. I don't mind chopping off the bayonet lug, obviously. I DO mind not having a flash hider though. At some point the beast ceases to be an AR to me and turns into a neutered, watered down mutt of a rifle. Losing the FH is that point for me. Especially because I shoot at night under NVG's a lot. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Keep in mind, CA has different tules regarding preban rifles, most are banned by name. It would probably help if you state which state you're moving too(did I miss it?) as each state seems to have slightly different rules.
Keep in mind, CA has different tules regarding preban rifles, most are banned by name. It would probably help if you state which state you're moving too(did I miss it?) as each state seems to have slightly different rules.
It's NY. The "Colt AR-15" is banned by name. I wonder does this apply to Pre-Ban Colt lowers too?
I have two pre-ban PWA commando lowers. They are the only ones I will buy. They were also very numerous in their time.
I flat out refuse to buy anything colt because of their constant PC faggotry.
They have all different sorts of things to watch out for like sear block, trigger pin size, take down pins and a combination their off.
More of them are grey than black and don't match new uppers. Tons of them have gay PC names on them.
None of this is acceptable to me, and I will not support a company that goes above and beyond the AWB with the silly shit it does.
PWA has gone on to become LMT.
The PWA lowers have no bullshit features. They are one hole away from a mil-spec lower. They are low shelf and will accept a RDIAS.
Pricing I paid 895$ for a complete A1 set up in 2007. It had a Heavy 1/12 twist piece of junk barrel. Otherwise it was a stupendous deal and served me well until I dropped a real upper and stock on it.
In the last few months I bought a complete PWA lower with some junk parts kit on it for 800$. Not as great a deal but I wanted another one and jumped on the opportunity.
The reality is you are going to be stuck buying a whole gun. Colts, mostly neutered Hbars, go for 1300 all day, don't pay more.
But like others say its nice to be pre-ban, but you can build some great stuff in post ban configuration.
My two big musts in this are a Battlecomp (a must to reduce blast) and a pinned MOE stock at the length that works best for you. Then take off the lever on it and it doesn't even look like it was ever meant to telescope.
It's NY. The "Colt AR-15" is banned by name. I wonder does this apply to Pre-Ban Colt lowers too?
No.
Only those made after September 1994.
Specifically:
(e) provided, however, that such term does not include... (insert non-related text and definitions)
(v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic
pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this
subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September fourteenth, nineteen
hundred ninety-four.
Paragraph (d) as mentioned above is the section that states Colt AR-15 and the other scary guns.
Regarding post ban compliance and flash hiders.
True, you can't have them, but you can have a brake or compensator like say a BCM as long as it's permanantly affixed to the barrel by:
Pin and weld the pin, or
Weld to the barrel at 4 equadistant points around the joint where brake/compensator meet, or
Weld all the way around the joint
Lots of good information in this thread. My $0.02:
- if you're buying a pre-ban lower (stripped or built), make sure that your deal allows you confirm that it functions, that it can be used to create a complete functioning weapon, and that it is (relatively) unmolested (no obvious paint-overs hiding cracks/hack repairs). There are some "out of spec" lowers out there that need some gentle 'massaging' to mate up correctly to an in-spec upper (easy with the Dremel!). I have not seen any personally, but there are reportedly some out of spec pre-ban lowers that cannot be made to function reliably/correctly, regardless of the quality of the LPK used (this could, of course, be internet rumormongering).
- re-anodizing damaged / modified / worn lowers has been covered extensively on this site (and elsewhere) - search is your friend here
- buying complete pre-ban rifles is, arguably, a somewhat "safer" route, but you will of course end up spending substantially more to buy a fully configured, complete weapon, with an upper/barrel/handguard/rail/flash hider combination that (i) is unlikely to be what you would select, given a clean sheet of paper and (ii) probably has very limited resale market value behind the lines.
- muzzle brakes are, for the most part, quite painful for those around you. I haven't tried/been near a BattleComp, but I've been next to PWS556 brakes (my own and others) on line during training classes, as well as numerous other brakes...they are really obnoxious. For that reason alone, I am moving to pre-bans
I have two pre-ban PWA commando lowers. They are the only ones I will buy. They were also very numerous in their time.
I flat out refuse to buy anything colt because of their constant PC faggotry.
They have all different sorts of things to watch out for like sear block, trigger pin size, take down pins and a combination their off.
More of them are grey than black and don't match new uppers. Tons of them have gay PC names on them.
None of this is acceptable to me, and I will not support a company that goes above and beyond the AWB with the silly shit it does.
It is $90 to get a sear block milled down by SAW. It looks "factory" after it is done if not better. You can get a preban Colt lower with a pushpin, so your point is bullshit. Gray was the standard during that day. There is nothing wrong with a gray receiver.
The PWA lowers have no bullshit features.
Like out of spec magazine wells and cheap type 2 anodizing. I have seen too many PWA lowers with tight magazine wells or dimensional issues between the mag well, mag catch, and bolt catch to recommend them.
They are one hole away from a mil-spec lower. They are low shelf and will accept a RDIAS.
Only early PWA lowers can accept a RDIAS.
The only preban lowers I would use would be Colt or Eagle Arms made in Coal Valley, IL.
The Eagle Arms isn't going to be any cheaper than Colt.
You can find preban Eagle lowers in both factory black and factory gray.
The only preban lowers I would use would be Colt or Eagle Arms made in Coal Valley, IL.
The Eagle Arms isn't going to be any cheaper than Colt.
You can find preban Eagle lowers in both factory black and factory gray.
Thanks for the tip, Scott. Eagle Arms was a separate entity during the early stages at Coal Valley, correct? Was this before they came to be Armalite's budget brand / parts distributor? Or is my history messed up?
Thanks for the tip, Scott. Eagle Arms was a separate entity during the early stages at Coal Valley, correct? Was this before they came to be Armalite's budget brand / parts distributor? Or is my history messed up?
Yes you are correct. Coal Valley is pre Armalite.
Not to derail, but what is the difference between pre-ban and post-ban?
The ability to legally have certain features/items installed vs not being able to have certain features/items installed based on which side of the effective date the receiver manufacture took place.
EG, for NY:
A pre ban rifle can have a telescopic or folding stock on it legally.
A post ban with the same item will get you a felony arrest.
truckie453
09-01-11, 13:21
Not to derail, but what is the difference between pre-ban and post-ban?
sadly other than the date of manufacture, nothing... Unlike the Federal AWB, the NYS AWB did not have an expiration. So we have to have preban receivers if we want things like collapsible stocks, flash hiders and bayonet lugs. We also have to have preban magazines if we want greater than 10 rounds. Speaking of magazines, you are allowed to have a pre-ban magazine in a post ban gun. Some people may not think that is true but it is...
truckie453
09-01-11, 13:23
It's NY. The "Colt AR-15" is banned by name. I wonder does this apply to Pre-Ban Colt lowers too?
What part of NY? I am downstate on Long Island. FWIW I have a preban COLT AR15 with no problems taking it to the range.
What part of NY? I am downstate on Long Island. FWIW I have a preban COLT AR15 with no problems taking it to the range.
All of New York state.
sadly other than the date of manufacture, nothing... Unlike the Federal AWB, the NYS AWB did not have an expiration. So we have to have preban receivers if we want things like collapsible stocks, flash hiders and bayonet lugs. We also have to have preban magazines if we want greater than 10 rounds. Speaking of magazines, you are allowed to have a pre-ban magazine in a post ban gun. Some people may not think that is true but it is...
Seriously?
That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my entire life. :suicide:
truckie453
09-01-11, 16:53
All of New York state.
What I meant was, to the OP what part of NYS are you in. The AWB does apply to all of NYS with the exception of NYC which has its own set of rules (stricter)
truckie453
09-01-11, 17:02
Seriously?
That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my entire life. :suicide:
Pretty messed up huh. Don't even get me started on price gouging for preban stuff. Gun shops around here try to sell preban magazines for $25-$35... I understand capitalism but outside of NY brand new mags go for what, $12-$15?
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