View Full Version : electric/hybrid batteries are "green" ??
So the green weenies want me to move from a foreign oil based car to a foreign battery based car that is mined from radioactive mines all in the name of green :rolleyes: green is the new red, unless they're trying to bring about the zombie apocalypse sooner by going green :D I see this doing nothing but giving communist China more power, hence green is the new red.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/s_754030.html
polymorpheous
08-30-11, 20:41
My understanding is that these batteries are quite toxic.
I call it "green-washing".
No one tells you to consume less to be "green".
But they will always tell you to buy more "green".
This is a clue.
ditto others green battery ?
I always get into it with green heads
so I say !!!! do you know where batteries come from ? they dont grow like mushrooms they have to mine the material which of course takes HUGE diesel powered machines and a lot of them destroys huge areas of earth and then the material has to be processed usually in HUGE coal burning polluting plants and then put together in more plants that burn coal and the plastics and such to house the batteries come from another plant and then they are all shipped more diesel trucks and then in the end where do you think the energy comes from ? coal burning plants to charge your system up !
and when they say solar I say SO now you have solar that take battery banks so repeat this process and then repeat again for the solar panel process
you are actually in the end using more energy and consuming more of the earths resources ! but since its blind to you for some stupid reason you feel better about yourself !
and when it comes time to recycle the batteries ? they are toxic and take a lot of special care to recycle using a ton more energy again
pull your head out lets get good blutec diesels in this country in every manufacture and we will be ahead !
ignorance these days with the green movement is insane
Hybrid vehicles are a "moron detector" to me.
So, you think getting marginally better mileage is worth the extra cost, extra weight and toxic waste dump running around on four wheels?
You, then, are an idiot.
The exact same vehicle without the hybrid drive would get only slightly less gas mileage and cost far less and be better for the environment.
while newer cars are way safer than 80s cars funny how some of the early hondas toyotas and such got really good mileage ?
Re hybrid drivers are morons:
I have been almost hit by more hybrid vehicles than any other, while commuting 10 miles to work on my bicycle (a noted "green" method of transportation).
Hybrid vehicles are a "moron detector" to me.
So, you think getting marginally better mileage is worth the extra cost, extra weight and toxic waste dump running around on four wheels?
You, then, are an idiot.
The exact same vehicle without the hybrid drive would get only slightly less gas mileage and cost far less and be better for the environment.
Uhm... no. On all counts.
I bought my wife a Camry Hybrid and I can assure you that I'm not a moron (blanket statements like that serve only to make the individual making them look ignorant themselves) by any stretch of the imagination. Her car doesn't get marginally better fuel economy either, it's noticeable. A good example is her folks (speaking of morons) were interested in her Hybrid when we got it back in 2007. They instead decided to save about two grand and buy a Honda Accord 4cyl which wasn't even comparably equipped. It didn't have nav, leather or a lot of the other features the Camry had so to compare apples to apples they would have got one with more features and would have spent as much or more. The funny part is they let some salesman convince them that they were only saving about 3mpg by going with the hybrid but that's on the highway and on paper. The reality of it is that not only does her car get DOUBLE the fuel economy around town and combined regular driving but it also is MUCH faster than their gutless Accord that has such a worthless engine in it. On top of that their car is already out of a warranty and her car still has one. Their car has been in and out of the shop several times and her car hasn't been in once which was surprising to me for a first model year/new technology model.
In the four years we've owned the vehicle we've saved thousands and thousands of dollars in gas and all the dooms dayers stated that they battery would crap out in 70k miles and would cost $8k (due to supply lines all going to new production at the time) to replace. Funny, we've exceeded that and it's still going strong plus Toyota added a full 100k to ALL hybrid components so we're covered even if it fails. It's been an amazing car and I don't put it in the same category with the Prius and other 'tin can' style hybrids and this is evidenced by how many of our friends went out and bought Camry Hybrids after being in ours. It's been an amazing car for four years and I don't see it being any less for at least the next four. I don't think they're for everyone but I also don't think lifted 4x4 V8 trucks are for everyone either.
while newer cars are way safer than 80s cars funny how some of the early hondas toyotas and such got really good mileage ?
Take a look at the CRX. What a cool car that was. My buddy had the Si w/a manual transmission and that puppy was pretty darn quick too. They were inexpensive, looked good, lasted, got good gas mileage and best of all were affordable. The problem is all the safety and technology has added gobs of weight which adversely affects acceleration which is how most American base a large part of their vehicle buying decision. We've become addicted to speed so to continue to meet those requests while meeting government requirements on safety and technology fuel economy has to suffer unless some magical power source can be discovered.
CarlosDJackal
08-31-11, 12:23
Back in 04 I was looking at Hybrids and Diesels to replace my SUV until I finally settled on the Civic Hybrid. I started looking at the numbers and in comparing it with the other Honda Civic models I could not understand what the hubub was about.
Back then the life expectancy for the batteries was about 80k at a cost of $8k to replace (I understand it has gone way down since). The MPG wasn't all that different than a regular Civic and even with the tax credit offered back then, I knew I would end up in the hole if I bought the hybrid because of how much I drove.
So I bought a Civic EX (non-hybrid). I now have almost 150k miles on it and have posted gas mileages of up to 45 MPG (all highway) with an around town average of 34 MPG.
Am I glad that I did not buy the hybrid because I probably would have had to replace its battery at least once and maybe twice. Plus it's "green-ness" is offset by the fact that the batteries it uses cannot be recycled and would have to live in a dump for a very long time.
Just like the Flex fuel craze, hybrids are for suckers. Unless they can come up with longer-lasting batteries that can be reused or recycled, I'm not even going to consider them.
Plus, I have yet to come across a hybrid driver who wasn't a moron. I mean really, just because you drive a hybrid of some sort it doesn't mean you should be driving on the fast lane at BELOW the posted speed limit. There is no such thing as a "Hybrid only lane"!! :fie:
In the past, not within the last 3 years, the cost for ME to own a hybrid vehicle well exceeded the cost to own a 2008 VW Rabbit. Consequently I bought the Rabbit.
Back in 04 I was looking at Hybrids and Diesels to replace my SUV until I finally settled on the Civic Hybrid. I started looking at the numbers and in comparing it with the other Honda Civic models I could not understand what the hubub was about.
Back then the life expectancy for the batteries was about 80k at a cost of $8k to replace (I understand it has gone way down since). The MPG wasn't all that different than a regular Civic and even with the tax credit offered back then, I knew I would end up in the hole if I bought the hybrid because of how much I drove.
So I bought a Civic EX (non-hybrid). I now have almost 150k miles on it and have posted gas mileages of up to 45 MPG (all highway) with an around town average of 34 MPG.
Am I glad that I did not buy the hybrid because I probably would have had to replace its battery at least once and maybe twice. Plus it's "green-ness" is offset by the fact that the batteries it uses cannot be recycled and would have to live in a dump for a very long time.
Just like the Flex fuel craze, hybrids are for suckers. Unless they can come up with longer-lasting batteries that can be reused or recycled, I'm not even going to consider them.
Plus, I have yet to come across a hybrid driver who wasn't a moron. I mean really, just because you drive a hybrid of some sort it doesn't mean you should be driving on the fast lane at BELOW the posted speed limit. There is no such thing as a "Hybrid only lane"!! :fie:
Another blanket moron statement. Now you can say you came across someone who isn't a moron that owns one. If you spot either myself or my wife in the left hand lane doing less than the speed limit then you can call us whatever you want.
The bottom line is that you notice the SLOW ones and the rest you pay no never mind too because they're going about their business... just like you. If you lived in Colorado I'm sure you've been passed a time or two by either my wife or myself driving hers and since it's a Camry hybrid probably wouldn't even have noticed.
I often found that those disparaging hybrids the most are trying to justify their own car purchases. Should I just call them all morons?
Another blanket moron statement. Now you can say you came across someone who isn't a moron that owns one. If you spot either myself or my wife in the left hand lane doing less than the speed limit then you can call us whatever you want.
The bottom line is that you notice the SLOW ones and the rest you pay no never mind too because they're going about their business... just like you. If you lived in Colorado I'm sure you've been passed a time or two by either my wife or myself driving hers and since it's a Camry hybrid probably wouldn't even have noticed.
I often found that those disparaging hybrids the most are trying to justify their own car purchases. Should I just call them all morons?
Most hybrid drivers, and drivers in general, are morons. That easier to swallow?
If you don't believe me, ride a bicycle through town and it becomes far too obvious.
...save about two grand and buy a Honda Accord 4cyl which wasn't even comparably equipped.
Was that the price difference after the subsidies?
Most hybrid drivers, and drivers in general, are morons. That easier to swallow?
That's fine and I can live with that. I just don't think 'Hybrid owners are morons' is a fair statement. I tend to take offense since I own one and am not a moron
If you don't believe me, ride a bicycle through town and it becomes far too obvious.
I've ridden both bikes and motorbikes so I too have quite a bit of first hand experience with moron drivers. I no longer ride bikes on public roadways because of one such moron that pulled out in front of me on my 2007 GSX-R1000 with only 1200 miles on the odometer. I was doing about 35mph and the idiot just pulled right out. It wouldn't be very fair of me to say 'all Ford drivers are morons' based on a handful of experiences, would it?
Also, off topic but I've experienced my share of bike rider morons too.
Was that the price difference after the subsidies?
Our Camry Hybrid was actually considerably less expensive because at the time we had about $5k in federal and state tax credits. I didn't even factor that into my comparison.
It wouldn't be very fair of me to say 'all Ford drivers are morons' based on a handful of experiences, would it?
I doubt it would be too far from the truth.
Also, off topic but I've experienced my share of bike rider morons too.
They are normally the ones so stupid even Darwin can't touch them.
Take a look at the CRX. What a cool car that was. My buddy had the Si w/a manual transmission and that puppy was pretty darn quick too. They were inexpensive, looked good, lasted, got good gas mileage and best of all were affordable. The problem is all the safety and technology has added gobs of weight which adversely affects acceleration which is how most American base a large part of their vehicle buying decision. We've become addicted to speed so to continue to meet those requests while meeting government requirements on safety and technology fuel economy has to suffer unless some magical power source can be discovered.
those were great cars and got over 50 MPG :) they are coming out with a CR-Z or did ? I remember reading about it a bit ago but not sure to much as it wont be a family ride :)
I remember lots of small 80s cars getting 40-50 though ?
while newer cars are way safer than 80s cars funny how some of the early hondas toyotas and such got really good mileage ?
EPA mandated emissions controls sap fuel economy. So does weight.
Those old CVCC's weighed like 1800lbs or something ridiculous.
those were great cars and got over 50 MPG :) they are coming out with a CR-Z or did ? I remember reading about it a bit ago but not sure to much as it wont be a family ride :)
I remember lots of small 80s cars getting 40-50 though ?
It's been out for a little bit now and I've driven one. Unfortunately it's not like the oldie. It's heavier, more expensive, drives like a yacht in comparison, gets worse fuel economy and the kicker of it all is it's pretty expensive compared to the older version. Aside from the name and general shape it really doesn't share anything else which is unfortunate. What they should have done was updated the previous version and with the advancements they've made since that car was engineered they should have been able to make it slightly faster with slightly better fuel economy and a few more creature comforts for not too much more money. I think they would have had a hit on their hands. I think that's the car Americans have been asking for but manufacturers can't seem to figure it out.
Thomas M-4
08-31-11, 16:10
EPA mandated emissions controls sap fuel economy. So does weight.
Those old CVCC's weighed like 1800lbs or something ridiculous.
I had to rebuild one of those CVCC engines in the early 90's for shop class. The lean burn chamber design was neat. Seams that it dropped out of favor after fuel injection became standard.
My uncle bought one when they first came out to replace his Gremlin :lol:
EPA mandated emissions controls sap fuel economy. So does weight.
Those old CVCC's weighed like 1800lbs or something ridiculous.
Bingo. Aside from the emissions controls, those early cars were terrible little rattle traps by today's standards. Very very minimalistic. If you put them on a lot and had the average consumer now test drive them alongside current cars and hardly any would sell. A crx had a curb weight of 1800, a 2011 civic coupe weighs almost 2600. And 76 hp vs. 140 hp.
Meanwhile the advancements in engine efficiency have been pretty amazing since then to keep gas mileage AND make lots of power, comparatively. I wonder what kind of mileage you could get with modern engine & transmission technology shoehorned into the spartan vehicles of yesteryear?
Our Camry Hybrid was actually considerably less expensive because at the time we had about $5k in federal and state tax credits. I didn't even factor that into my comparison.
I'm calling bullshit on your price difference, then. Something else is in that equation you're not talking about.
1000 pounds of batteries plus a second drive system cost more than $2000.
Plus there is the fact that you and your wife are driving around a toxic waste dump.
Plus there is the fact that the cost of gasoline STILL doesn't come close to covering the additional $10-12k your precious hybrid REALLY costs. You know how long you will have to drive it to make up that difference? The answer is probably longer than the operational life of the vehicle.
Plus there is the fact that when your batteries no longer charge, the depreciatioin on that car will kill you. You basically have to keep buying a new car every few years, which also has a huge ecological impact.
Now, where hybrids really work is in very large vehicles, like trains and heavy trucks, where the additional weight and complexity of hybrid technology has less impact on the various costs associated with hybrid technology.
We had our Passat in to get the A/C fixed yesterday and today and they gave us a loaner Jetta TDI (2011 -- new Jetta).
It drove really nice and gets really good gas mileage. That is the way I spell "green"
The TDI clean diesel emissions are really pretty much non existent and they accelerate pretty well due to the higher diesel torque and the transmission they put in them.
This had the DSG "automatic". Would like to drive a standard transmission TDI one of these days.
It's been out for a little bit now and I've driven one. Unfortunately it's not like the oldie. It's heavier, more expensive, drives like a yacht in comparison, gets worse fuel economy and the kicker of it all is it's pretty expensive compared to the older version. Aside from the name and general shape it really doesn't share anything else which is unfortunate. What they should have done was updated the previous version and with the advancements they've made since that car was engineered they should have been able to make it slightly faster with slightly better fuel economy and a few more creature comforts for not too much more money. I think they would have had a hit on their hands. I think that's the car Americans have been asking for but manufacturers can't seem to figure it out.
ahhhh kinda like the old VW and new VW :) the name is about it and rough shape :)
one old fast fun car I had back in HS was a RX3SP that was a killer fun car to have and modify
We had our Passat in to get the A/C fixed yesterday and today and they gave us a loaner Jetta TDI (2011 -- new Jetta).
It drove really nice and gets really good gas mileage. That is the way I spell "green"
The TDI clean diesel emissions are really pretty much non existent and they accelerate pretty well due to the higher diesel torque and the transmission they put in them.
This had the DSG "automatic". Would like to drive a standard transmission TDI one of these days.
those are the car if you want mileage and the torque makes them a nice driver :)
I dont commute etc.. but love to travel and camp etc.. keep thinking of getting a station wagon I know many with a load and cruising can get 40 or more on the HWY pretty easy
better than my 12 I get now in my 4x4 :)
We had our Passat in to get the A/C fixed yesterday and today and they gave us a loaner Jetta TDI (2011 -- new Jetta).
It drove really nice and gets really good gas mileage. That is the way I spell "green"
The TDI clean diesel emissions are really pretty much non existent and they accelerate pretty well due to the higher diesel torque and the transmission they put in them.
.
Just came from trip to Europe where I drove a Mercedes version of clean diesel emissions car. Covered 580 kilometers on 3/4 of gas tank.
http://www.thedieseldriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/DSC_0450.JPG
i like these.. the drivetrain is just metal things. no batteries. 260 hp, 450 ft lbs of torque, 37 mpg highway. it's a twin turbo I6 diesel.. :D
i really think diesel is the answer to a lot of the whole energy situation. it's fairly insensitive to fuel, (can run diesel biodiesel, Veggie oil, ATF, JP8, various mixtures of the above) 30% more efficient than a gas engine, great power, long life, reliable... good stuff.. luckily the EPA has protected us from most of the highly efficient fun to drive diesels the euros get :rolleyes:
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