View Full Version : American Defense Manufacturing Mounts
For people who haven't seen it yet, there is a new company that has come to the market. American Defense Manufacturing (ADM) has developed and released a new line of mounts designed for the Aimpoint series.
There are a number of people who have been busy over the past few weeks testing, evaluating, and checking out these new mounts. So far, I have been impressed, but I've still got more trigger time, and more testing to do before I can release my full evaluation. For right now, I am impressed with the thought and design that has gone into these mounts.
I've written up a more in depth review, which can be located at the below link.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150
The below highlights are taken from several persons, and are not solely my own.
Highlights include:
1. The contact surface is much longer than similar mounts.
2. The Locking lever auto locks.
3. No wrenches or special tools are needed to tighten or loosen adjustment.
4. Low weight.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/American%20Defense%20MFG/IMG_7260%201028%20WEVO%20Stick.jpg
It looks O.K., like a LaRue knockoff with holes drilled in it.
I guess that I have become a LaRue loyalist. Mark earned my business, itty-bitty as it might be.
I like it! What else are they planning on making?
I like it! What else are they planning on making?
There is a list of things, but the one I am most interested in the scope mounts.
uranus- I guess since ARMS came first, everything looks like a knockoff of ARMS. If you move past the idea that they are all mounts, the differences end pretty quickly.
I don't think it looks like LaRue. The prices seem similar, however.
I do wonder how durable their lever system is. I guess only time will tell.
Ellery Holt
11-08-07, 00:25
ADM -- "Super-Mounts For The World" (TM)
:D
(That's just a play on the trademark of another, famous, ADM)
Robb Jensen
11-08-07, 05:12
I like it. I'm interested in the AD-68. I also like the American flag on it, it reminds me of the new Daniel Defense Omega rail.
Interesting. Much like Larue was an improvement on ARMS, these appear to be an improvement on Larue (intellectually speaking, obviously).
Lots of lessons to be learned in the AR mount market. ARMS rested on their Laurels instead of innovating, and it took Larue to make positive changes to the design. At first glance, and if these mounts operate as advertised, they may make further positive changes.
Maybe I missed it, but does ADM have a website?
Do these people have a website?
BravoCompanyUSA
11-08-07, 08:51
Do these people have a website?
Currently under construction.
http://www.americandefensemfg.com/
Is this the same ADM that's in New Berlin, WI? If so, cool!
Does anyone have a picture of the cantilever mount?
This stuff seems like what I've been lusting for, for so long.
Does this mean I'll have to buy an Aimpoint? :confused:
Does anyone have a picture of the cantilever mount?
This stuff seems like what I've been lusting for, for so long.
I agree. I think that they have addressed quite a few of what I perceive as shortcomings on the Larue system. Hopefully they live up to the potential of the design, and I'd love to see them branch out into light mounts etc. The reversible feature of the lever is perfect for lights.
I could do without the six screws in the rings, but whatever. I guess it's part of the whole "more is better" thing, but I find 4 to be sufficient.
I agree. I think that they have addressed quite a few of what I perceive as shortcomings on the Larue system. Hopefully they live up to the potential of the design, and I'd love to see them branch out into light mounts etc. The reversible feature of the lever is perfect for lights.
I could do without the six screws in the rings, but whatever. I guess it's part of the whole "more is better" thing, but I find 4 to be sufficient.
I agree. I was going to get a GG&G mount as they have a similiar locking mechanism that doesn't rub or slide against the receiver.
Right now, I have a Larue but I'm suspicious about the lever putting a sliding force on the upper instead of a pure clamping force that is normal to the upper.
I just couldn't stand how the GG&G ring halves were slanted the wrong way and you had to mount the Aimpoint turrets pointing up and left instead of up and right.
I agree 4 screws is sufficient like the Larue. I also wish the ADM came with Torx screws like the Larue.
On the GG&G, I was suspicious of the big lever. I was afraid I would get a piece of web gear under it and accidentally open it.
Maybe we can get ADM to come on this website and get them to change to 4 screws and Torx. It seems like the ADM solves all these problems.
... I think that they have addressed quite a few of what I perceive as shortcomings on the Larue system....
In your perception, what are the "quite a few" shortcomings of Larue's system?
In your perception, what are the "quite a few" shortcomings of Larue's system?
Well, to be fair, I said "they address quite a few of the shortcomings", not "there are quite a few shortcomings". ;)
However, the reversible lever is a big one for me, especially (as stated above) if they apply it to light mounts.
The use of a slotted screw, one that fits a 5.56 case rim no less, is far superior IMHO to the nut on the LT, especially since I managed to bend one of the LT wrenches pretty easily last week.
The lightening cuts/holes are also a great idea. From an engineering standpoint, why have material where you don't need it?
I'd like to see a pic of the underside of the ADM mount as well. Having a slot-width square portion to interface with the slot in the rail would be fantastic, instead having to rely on "pinch" laterally across the rail.
ETA:
Looks like BCM has pics of the underside. here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8822).
I'm really wanting to try out one of these things.
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/811/adincqc8.jpg
BravoCompanyUSA
11-08-07, 09:56
Is this the same ADM that's in New Berlin, WI? If so, cool!
Yes- exactly correct, they are in New Berlin, Wisconsin.
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/811/adincqc8.jpg
Damn your quick!
I hope they come out with a SPR type of mount in 30mm.
Damn your quick!
I hope they come out with a SPR type of mount in 30mm.
I was thinking the same thing....
There is great potential, IMHO, for that mount to be a single lever as well since the lever is pushing a bar and not a shin piece of metal.
BravoCompanyUSA
11-08-07, 13:24
There is a extended scope mount (30mm and 1" and others) on the drawing board.... maybe even in the machine by now.
Are they a start up company or have they been making other things? Im definetly thinking about stocking.
BravoCompanyUSA
11-08-07, 13:47
A very very large manufacturing company.
davemcdonald
11-08-07, 15:59
I got to check one of these out last week. They seem ok for the price. The lever lock is not as strong as the one a LaRue but I think it will be strong enough for what it was designed for. I think it is a good option to have on the market.
Dave
I got to check one of these out last week. They seem ok for the price. The lever lock is not as strong as the one a LaRue but I think it will be strong enough for what it was designed for. I think it is a good option to have on the market.
Dave
Can I ask how you came to this conclusion? How do you define "strength" in this type of mount? Do you pull on the lever with a machine until failure and record the lbs at which it failed? If not empirically tested, how would you come to that conclusion?
Can I ask how you came to this conclusion? How do you define "strength" in this type of mount? Do you pull on the lever with a machine until failure and record the lbs at which it failed? If not empirically tested, how would you come to that conclusion?
With all due respect Rob, could you explain how you came to your conclusions regarding the earlier design criticisms you cited with respect to LaRue's mounts?
You referenced that the fwd facing lever is a flaw. In your personal experience, and also what you've gathered from other users, when a LaRue lever is adjusted correctly, is it prone to snagging an opening unexpectedly? Also, don't all current laRue levers feature some type of sliding lock which precludes any snagging? My experience is limited to my BUIS which is two years old at least, I'm not up to speed on all of LaRue's current offerings.
Is the LaRue prone to sliding on a rail since it grabs from just the sides (and doesn't incorporate the additional cross-slot tabs like the ADM mount)? How do these tabs improve things? Unless they are fit to each rail, they would never butt up to cross slots, only one of them would likely bear on a cross slot surface. Not unless they are milled perfectly and your rail is also milled perfectly.
The lightening cuts do reduce weight, but how much are we talking in an aluminum mount? 1 oz? More than that? I don't have any idea of a price list for the ADM mount, but assuming it costs more than the LaRue, what is a reasonable cost delta for ounces-saved amount?
Your suggestion that the lever tension adjustment use a cross slot that you could use a cartridge rim, that has some merit, but I never had any issue with the LaRue wrench/nut combo on my BUIS. Once adjusted, I never messed with it, and I could still remove the BUIS and reinstall it without having to re-adjust the lever tension.
I'm not ragging on the ADM mount, more competition is better, especially when the competing product is good quality. I was just surprised to see the criticisms levied against the LaRue which in my mind sets the standard. I don't think ADM has done anything revolutionary, if anything maybe a micro-incremental improvement, but if it costs $1 more than the Larue offering, it wouldn't be worth it to me. I just don't think it offers any significant enough improvements to change. If it came in cheaper, then it would be worthy of consideration, as long as it's GTG in other areas (good quality control, proper machining, properly hardened adjustment screw, etc.). JMHO.
I don't think ADM has done anything revolutionary
Neither do I.
Revolutionary would be something radically new, and that stunned us all. Evolutionary would be improving on what is currently available, and by increased the length of surface engagement, removing the need for adjustment tools, and allowing for a directional lock, I consider the design to meet that definition in my book.
I would guess that existing companies will improve their current offerings as a result of this, which will make the entire market a better place for weapon consumers.
Neither do I.
Revolutionary would be something radically new, and that stunned us all. Evolutionary would be improving on what is currently available, and by increased the length of surface engagement, removing the need for adjustment tools, and allowing for a directional lock, I consider the design to meet that definition in my book.
I would guess that existing companies will improve their current offerings as a result of this, which will make the entire market a better place for weapon consumers.
Engagement Surface Length -- The ADM might have the slightest edge, but I never felt the LaRue lacked for enough engagement surface. I don't recall reading of instances where a LaRue slips. I've never experienced that with my BUIS. The requirement is for the mount to hold, if the LaRue satisfies that requirement then the ADM incorporates more than is necessary (I know, that old "good enough" argument.;) )
Lever Adjustment Interface -- fair comment. if you feel the nut/wrench combo on the LaRue is a flaw, then I can see how the ADM would be considered better.
Locking Lever -- Larue mounts now incorporate a locking lever, at least that's what their website says.
Can someone get a picture of the left side (lever side) and does anyone know if it has a compartment for a spare Aimpoint battery like the Larue mount? Thanks.
With all due respect Rob, could you explain how you came to your conclusions regarding the earlier design criticisms you cited with respect to LaRue's mounts?
You referenced that the fwd facing lever is a flaw. In your personal experience, and also what you've gathered from other users, when a LaRue lever is adjusted correctly, is it prone to snagging an opening unexpectedly? Also, don't all current laRue levers feature some type of sliding lock which precludes any snagging? My experience is limited to my BUIS which is two years old at least, I'm not up to speed on all of LaRue's current offerings.
Is the LaRue prone to sliding on a rail since it grabs from just the sides (and doesn't incorporate the additional cross-slot tabs like the ADM mount)? How do these tabs improve things? Unless they are fit to each rail, they would never butt up to cross slots, only one of them would likely bear on a cross slot surface. Not unless they are milled perfectly and your rail is also milled perfectly.
The lightening cuts do reduce weight, but how much are we talking in an aluminum mount? 1 oz? More than that? I don't have any idea of a price list for the ADM mount, but assuming it costs more than the LaRue, what is a reasonable cost delta for ounces-saved amount?
Your suggestion that the lever tension adjustment use a cross slot that you could use a cartridge rim, that has some merit, but I never had any issue with the LaRue wrench/nut combo on my BUIS. Once adjusted, I never messed with it, and I could still remove the BUIS and reinstall it without having to re-adjust the lever tension.
I'm not ragging on the ADM mount, more competition is better, especially when the competing product is good quality. I was just surprised to see the criticisms levied against the LaRue which in my mind sets the standard. I don't think ADM has done anything revolutionary, if anything maybe a micro-incremental improvement, but if it costs $1 more than the Larue offering, it wouldn't be worth it to me. I just don't think it offers any significant enough improvements to change. If it came in cheaper, then it would be worthy of consideration, as long as it's GTG in other areas (good quality control, proper machining, properly hardened adjustment screw, etc.). JMHO.
and so it begins....
This reminds me of when Larue first came on the scene, and all the guys that owned a single piece of ARMS gear got bent out of shape when people started saying that Larue was an improvement.
IMHO the Larue was less of an improvement over the ARMS than ADM appears to be over the LT.
Look, if you don't want to trade in your Larue BUIS for an ADM (has anyone even mentioned them making a BUIS yet? :confused: ) then don't. I for one like seeing innovation, I like seeing the market challenged, I do believe that the design elements I mentioned are improvements over the current throwlever mounts on the market (assuming they live up to their potential), and I hope that it inspires other companies to continue to expand the innovation.
I own quite a bit of LT gear, and I do think it's currently the best thing available in throwlever mounts, but I have learned that there is always room for improvement, and I'm not going to balk at new products simply because I'm married to my gear.
I'll have an ADM cantilever mount by the end of the week. I'll let you know my thoughts again when I have it in hand. If someone thinks that the lever on the new mount is "weaker than Larue" and can propose a scientific way to test it I'll buy one of each and test them both to failure in the name of science.
Can someone get a picture of the left side (lever side) and does anyone know if it has a compartment for a spare Aimpoint battery like the Larue mount? Thanks.
More pictures here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8822)
There does not appear to be a provision for a spare battery, but with the new insane battery life on the M3s it's much less of an issue IMHO.
Robb Jensen
11-08-07, 18:46
Can someone get a picture of the left side (lever side) and does anyone know if it has a compartment for a spare Aimpoint battery like the Larue mount? Thanks.
I'm pretty sure that there isn't a battery compartment.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/AD%2068-2.jpg,http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/AD%2068C-2.jpg
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/AD%2068L-2.jpg
and so it begins....
This reminds me of when Larue first came on the scene, and all the guys that owned a single piece of ARMS gear got bent out of shape when people started saying that Larue was an improvement.
IMHO the Larue was less of an improvement over the ARMS than ADM appears to be over the LT.
Look, if you don't want to trade in your Larue BUIS for an ADM (has anyone even mentioned them making a BUIS yet? :confused: ) then don't. I for one like seeing innovation, I like seeing the market challenged, I do believe that the design elements I mentioned are improvements over the current throwlever mounts on the market (assuming they live up to their potential), and I hope that it inspires other companies to continue to expand the innovation.
I own quite a bit of LT gear, and I do think it's currently the best thing available in throwlever mounts, but I have learned that there is always room for improvement, and I'm not going to balk at new products simply because I'm married to my gear.
I'll have an ADM cantilever mount by the end of the week. I'll let you know my thoughts again when I have it in hand. If someone thinks that the lever on the new mount is "weaker than Larue" and can propose a scientific way to test it I'll buy one of each and test them both to failure in the name of science.
And so it begins is spot on!
I'm giddy with anticipation.....
Thanks guys. It looks like a great mount.
BCM said that it does not gouge the upper, that is a benefit. I like my Larue stuff, but that would not stop me from trying something new if it is improved. DOes the ADM stuff retain ZERO like the Larue stuff? That is a huge deal to me. Not that I take the M3 off all the time, but I do like to demo that fact to guys when i am trying to talk them out of making the EO tech mistake I did. "But it is cheaper and I don't have to buy a seperate mount."
I have noticed that I have a gouge in my Colt upper receiver where the Larue locking lever Bites into the metal, but I don't think it is a huge deal, is it?
From everything I have heard Paul from BCM is a stand up guy, I don't think he would rep a crappy product....
I love it when people knock off the people that knocked off our product line . It lets them know how we felt when everybody started copying everything we did.It is the third or fourth generation. I like it when people try to make improvement(whether percieved or actual ) instaed of just copying it. The cantilever mount's finish does not look good in the picture but it could be a bad picture or a prototype. A little longer in the tumbler and a proper hardcoat finish will fix this. I say to all startup companies "come on in the water's fine" competition is what drives the industry.
In an early post I mentioned ARMS as having been the first to release mounts, if KAC was the first, I stand corrected. Thankyou for the clarification.
Regarding the finish, it looks to be a teflon coating, and the ones I've used had oil on them as well.
competition is what drives the industry.
Glad to hear you say that, and I couldn't agree more. What's that expression? Innovate or die? :D
Rob S.
I appears to me, in earlier post, there is some question on if Larue mounts have a lug which interfaces with the m1913 lugs (male & female)? There certainly is. Push optic forward, maintain tension, and tighten lever.
The difference between ARMS offerings & Larue is tremendous, not in technology, but in capability:
-adjust for tight fit on different weapons
-much more rugged
Ab I will say due to experience I'm quite biased. I've had THREE arms mounts break(one at 12k ASL+...), and thrown away dozens (usless) as they weren't able to properly fit Colt & LMT USG issued weps.
If this new American Defense offering has the same capabilty, sweet. Let the free market prevail.
I appears to me, in earlier post, there is some question on if Larue mounts have a lug which interfaces with the m1913 lugs (male & female)? There certainly is. Push optic forward, maintain tension, and tighten lever.
If you mean this statement from me
I'd like to see a pic of the underside of the ADM mount as well. Having a slot-width square portion to interface with the slot in the rail would be fantastic, instead having to rely on "pinch" laterally across the rail.
Then no, I didn't mean what you thought I meant.
What I have always wanted to see was a way for a mount manufacturer to have a cross-bolt system that "swells" (for lack of a better term) to fill the gap fore and aft as the lever is tightened. Essentially, a way to not have to rely on pushing the mount forward but instead knowing that it was filling the slot in the rail fully, every time, such that it was completely repeatable.
It does not appear that the ADM has this, nor does any other maker that I'm aware of.
Also, don't get me wrong, I do think that the Larue mount was/is an improvement over the ARMS.
The biggest thing I see with this mount is the clamp mount as opposed to a cam.This spreads the clamping area out and should have better repeatability .It is harder to get enough leverage to do this properly. I feel like all the people I complain about that have never seen a product or tested it and feel the need to coment on the part. This clamp type mount should be kinder to the 1913 rail (wear wise) than the cam type mounts. Dano is correct with his move the mount to the front of the rail slot comment. You wouldn't believe how much of a difference this makes for repeatability. Teflon - good for cooking bad for shooting.
KAC has never offered throw lever type mount for anything other than our Knightscopes. We consider the thumb screw nut as "QD". We did however do a FF rail that extends in front of the gas block first. It was or is called the MRE rail(more real estate) this rail has been is service for a number of years and is similar to the product DD won SOPMOD II with. Longer side rails was not listed as a requirement so we did not propose it for this contract. We also felt our grenade launcher interface for the URX was superior do to the ability to keep the 40 mm "tucked in" as close as possible to the 5.56 bbl. I wish our rail would have won and the HK launcher used this interface as oposed to the 1913 interface. Our EGL was interesting but not a mature design. This whole program got messed up when they sepperated the EGL from SOPMOD II. The craziest thing is I have heard they are using a rail mount front site and removing the fixed site/gas block which counteracts many of the benifits of the DD omega/KAC MRE type rail.
The biggest thing I see with this mount is the clamp mount as opposed to a cam.This spreads the clamping area out and should have better repeatability .It is harder to get enough leverage to do this properly. I feel like all the people I complain about that have never seen a product or tested it and feel the need to coment on the part. This clamp type mount should be kinder to the 1913 rail (wear wise) than the cam type mounts. Dano is correct with his move the mount to the front of the rail slot comment. You wouldn't believe how much of a difference this makes for repeatability. Teflon - good for cooking bad for shooting.
KAC has never offered throw lever type mount for anything other than our Knightscopes. We consider the thumb screw nut as "QD". We did however do a FF rail that extends in front of the gas block first. It was or is called the MRE rail(more real estate) this rail has been is service for a number of years and is similar to the product DD won SOPMOD II with. Longer side rails was not listed as a requirement so we did not propose it for this contract. We also felt our grenade launcher interface for the URX was superior do to the ability to keep the 40 mm "tucked in" as close as possible to the 5.56 bbl. I wish our rail would have won and the HK launcher used this interface as oposed to the 1913 interface. Our EGL was interesting but not a mature design. This whole program got messed up when they sepperated the EGL from SOPMOD II. The craziest thing is I have heard they are using a rail mount front site and removing the fixed site/gas block which counteracts many of the benifits of the DD omega/KAC MRE type rail.
+1 and I'm glad to see someone else appreciates the M203 tucked in as close as possible to the barrel.
Whats the height on the standard Aimpoint ring?
It looks low.
A good basic rule of thumb is 2.5 " from center of bore. Some people prefer a little higher to give more sight picture with a standard front sight.
BravoCompany's reply here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=348967&page=1#bottom) says that the standard model has an absolute co-witness, but there is a lower 1/3 version available.
looks great..waiting on a 30mm mount for my scope. I already have 2 LT SPR mounts and they are great. Let's see what the new guys can bring in.
Yes- exactly correct, they are in New Berlin, Wisconsin.
Just down the road from Butler?.......;)
Got my cantilever mount in. I haven't gotten a chance to take comparison pics of it and the Larue, and these are pretty rudimentary pics on my kitchen counter, but hey, it's better than nothing, right? :D
I tried to take pics of aspects that haven't been shown yet, so please forgive the lack of typical front-side-top pics.
Everything that came in the box
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2488-600.jpg
The notch in the ball that the locking lever engages
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2493-600.jpg
The C-clip that holds the bolt in
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2499-600.jpg
A couple of pics of the lever reversed
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2507-600.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2510-600.jpg
The lever in the process of being reversed
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2509-600.jpg
The bottom of the mount
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2495-600.jpg
Some random initial thoughts after playing with it last night without having a gun around to mount it on.
-It is definitely light weight! I am a big proponent of light and this thing has that covered. I believe that the lever is aluminum also though, and I have some reservations about this.
-The finish is a nice, deep, dark black. For those that are concerned with such things.
-The feel of the locking lever is a bit... fragile feeling, for lack of a better term. I will have to see how it feels on the gun. It has the feel that the spring underneath there maybe isn't as substantial as it could be. I'd rather see the locking lever harder to disengage and a heavier (at least heavier feeling) spring used.
-The locking lever is held in with a roll pin. I have no reason to doubt the use of a roll pin in this location, but for some reason it bothers me. I am not sure why, or what other type of fastener I'd prefer to see there.
-The bolts in the clamp are allen not torx. I generally hate torx, but this is one place I'd prefer to see them.
All in all, I think the mount has great potential. Please don't misconstrue what I wrote above as being all negative, I'm just hitting on the reservations I have about the sample I received. If those minor things are addressed, or frankly if they prove not to matter in practical application, then I'm sold!
KintlaLake
11-15-07, 11:12
I'd rather see the locking lever harder to disengage...
A few clicks on the adjuster (opposite the lever) took care of that for me (standard version, AD-68). More clicks and it'll be damned near impossible to disengage. ;)
Trey addressed most of the issues I have noticed.
The Hosers managed to break one day one of the LAV/KN LL class -- BigRed was running it on his URX gun - and when the scope was tightened it popped the lower screw inserted out (well snapped one and pulled two out.
My engineering support staff guy (take a bow Mike - same guy who engineered my URX/HK interface and some URX mod's - hint hint hint hire hint KAC ;) ) also noticed a few other issues.
Its an early design and I think with a few tweaks it will be a very nice mount -- but I'm not tossing my Larue's away...
BravoCompanyUSA
11-16-07, 08:48
Just got a first look at the American Defense RECON scope mount.
Snapped some quick pics,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/RECON2.jpg
Left side with both QD adustable levers toward rear.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/RECONLeft.jpg
Another of left side, but with front QD lever pivioted to the front.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/RECONright.jpg
Right Side of AD-RECON scope mount.
These should be shipping next week. Retail will be $190.
We will have them at $179.95
Funnily enough, I was just packing this morning for a range visit tomorrow, and I was putting my Larue mounted 3-9x scope in the case, and had to remind myself to take the special wrench.
Hopefully these ADM mounts work out well and I can ditch the wrenches forever.
Trey addressed most of the issues I have noticed.
The Hosers managed to break one day one of the LAV/KN LL class -- BigRed was running it on his URX gun - and when the scope was tightened it popped the lower screw inserted out (well snapped one and pulled two out.
My engineering support staff guy (take a bow Mike - same guy who engineered my URX/HK interface and some URX mod's - hint hint hint hire hint KAC ;) ) also noticed a few other issues.
Its an early design and I think with a few tweaks it will be a very nice mount -- but I'm not tossing my Larue's away...
There was a thread on TOS about new upcoming mounts. Mark turned into himself on that thread but pointed out that one of the upcoming mounts didn't even make it through on day of testing. Kevin, any idea if this was the brand he was referring to?
FYI -- I should make a point that half the ring was installed upside down and then over torqued (3 ball bearing rule) before it popped out.
I have it on my Hk416 - now (using 2 of the lower bolts).
I also had a pre-production version.
Nathan_Bell
11-16-07, 17:59
FYI -- I should make a point that half the ring was installed upside down and then over torqued (3 ball bearing rule) before it popped out.
I have it on my Hk416 - now (using 2 of the lower bolts).
I also had a pre-production version.
Ah that is why it has three screws on the top and bottom so that when folks from the land due north of me get ahold of them they can still have a functioning mount :p
Just got a first look at the American Defense RECON scope mount.
Snapped some quick pics,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/RECON2.jpg
Left side with both QD adustable levers toward rear.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/RECONLeft.jpg
Another of left side, but with front QD lever pivioted to the front.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/RECONright.jpg
Right Side of AD-RECON scope mount.
These should be shipping next week. Retail will be $190.
We will have them at $179.95
Do they have plans on making an extended version?
BravoCompanyUSA
11-17-07, 07:43
I beleive so. I am bugging them about it. I could use one for my Accupoint.
Do they have plans on making an extended version?
Yes, another week or two should get us looking at it IIRC.
Some ADM/LT comparison pics, for those that are interested.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1860-cropMedium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1861-cropMedium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1862-cropMedium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1863-cropMedium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1859-cropMedium.jpg
Stivk check your PM's.
Replied, hope you got the info.
ETA pic to stay on topic....
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/American%20Defense%20MFG/IMG_8217%20ADM%20Stick.jpg
Good pics for us visual learners Rob!
By any chance, does the included spec sheet include the weight? Or, do you have a spare postal scale laying around?;)
BravoCompanyUSA
11-21-07, 22:11
By any chance, does the included spec sheet include the weight? Or, do you have a spare postal scale laying around?;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/IMG_7150.jpg
The AD-68L Low will not co-witness when used on an AR15, M16, M4 flat top with Mil-Spec size iron sights, 3.0 oz
(pictured on the left)
The AD-68 Standard Height features an absolute co-witness (co-witness near center of optic), 3.3 oz
(pictured on the right)
The AD-68H High Mount features an lower 1/3 co-witness (co-witness near bottom third of optic), 3.3 oz
(not pictured above, but looks the same as the AD-68 Standard)
The AD-68C Cantilever features an lower 1/3 co-witness (co-witness near bottom third of optic), 3.5 oz
(pictured in the center)
rob_s
Funnily enough, I was just packing this morning for a range visit tomorrow, and I was putting my Larue mounted 3-9x scope in the case, and had to remind myself to take the special wrench.
Hopefully these ADM mounts work out well and I can ditch the wrenches forever.
__________________
I've had my mount for well over a year and a half and have never needed to use the wrench once I have it mounted.
Does yours loosen THAT much?? or do you take it off quite a bit ??
A couple of things I notice about this mount.
No lock for the lever to avoid inadvertently opening it.
I don't like the "skeletonized" design of the ring that holds the optic as I keep picturing it snapping in two if my rifle hits a hard deck scope first.
The lack of wrench is nice.. and I have seen this type of self adjusting lever before in other pieces of equipment. One drawback I see with the lever exerting force on the cross bolt shaft that could be a issue is if you turn the cam to tighten it a little more before you close it.. and bust the shaft.. now your screwed... and the mount is not deadlined.
just some random thought after looking at the pics..
I agree, I have 4 LT mounts and one rifle I switch between a 1.5-5 scope and an Aimpoint frequently, never needed the "special" wrench. The only need I have seen for it has been adjusting it to a different lower. Maybe I've just been lucky.
BravoCompanyUSA
11-23-07, 11:37
....
No lock for the lever to avoid inadvertently opening it.
......
The lack of wrench is nice.. and I have seen this type of self adjusting lever before in other pieces of equipment. One drawback I see with the lever exerting force on the cross bolt shaft that could be a issue is if you turn the cam to tighten it a little more before you close it.. and bust the shaft.. now your screwed... and the mount is not deadlined.
just some random thought after looking at the pics..
Hi Harv,
The lever has a lock built into it. It needs to be depressed and held while operating the lever. It won't open accidently.
See the pic below kinda shows it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/IMG_7135.jpg
On a prototype I played with, I tighted the adjustment to the max with a screwdriver, then I banged the lever closed with a hammer. Then would open it with a long screwdriver (used like pry bar). I beat the shxt out of the lever, maybe 1000 times sitting here at my desk. It still works. It's beat up and ugly (*lol*), but it still works.
A couple of things I notice about this mount.
No lock for the lever to avoid inadvertently opening it.
I don't like the "skeletonized" design of the ring that holds the optic as I keep picturing it snapping in two if my rifle hits a hard deck scope first.
The lock is recessed into the lever so it won't snag.
Looks are subjective, so there is certainly nothing wrong with not liking the way it looks. As far as damaging the mount, I don't see any realistic way that is going to happen outside of something intentional (and thats easy enough to do to any manufactured item). The optic would be destroyed long before the mount would break due to the 3 holes in it.
Wholly Crap... I didn't t see that... Thanks for correcting me.. That is actually a kinda cool design for the lock.
davemcdonald
11-23-07, 17:33
My concern with the mount was that the lock was easily unlocked while just playing around with it however, once the lock is under a load there are no worries. It is a solid design.
I wouldn't torque the screws down too tight. They may fail at around 65 in lbs. I would go somewhere around 35-45 in lbs.
Dave
rob_s
I've had my mount for well over a year and a half and have never needed to use the wrench once I have it mounted.
Does yours loosen THAT much?? or do you take it off quite a bit ??
No, I don't keep the mount on any one gun. My magnified optic is for checking accuracy of various ammo in various rifles, so it gets moved alot. Hence, needing to adjust it.
davemcdonald
11-24-07, 09:32
Rob
Sorry that I didn't get back to answer your earlier question. From your post it seems that you may have the same reservations that I do about the locking lever. I think the notch may be too shallow. The locking lever appears to be Al and held in place with a roll pin. A spring and a roll pin is all that keeps the aluminum lock in the notch. I may be off the mark here but it seemed to me that it may have strength issues with the lock. On the flip side LT uses a plastic slide for a lock so it is six of one and a half dozen of another.
Dave
Submariner
11-24-07, 13:23
Price competition is what drives the industry.
Price War!
Are dealer price margins better than LT's? Can they advertise below MSRP?
Does anyone know what size the screws are (OD, pitch, and length?)
How are the mounts holding zero when taken off and on?
How are the mounts holding zero when taken off and on? I've been using the cantilever model. I've removed/replaced it a bunch of times and I have not noticed any shift in the zero.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/American%20Defense/IMG_2573.jpg
How are the mounts holding zero when taken off and on?
At the last range session, I took it on and off 15 times, and alternated drop kicking, and throwing the mount & optic down range. After each time, I dropped the Aimpoint back on and the zero had held. Its hardly scientific, but for a door kicking ingrate like myself, its showed what it needed. The reason I stopped after 15 times is that A- It was raining by the bucket load. B- A.D.D. kicked in and I went back to CQC drills and playing with a can.
Does anyone know what size the screws are (OD, pitch, and length?)
??????
At the last range session, I took it on and off 15 times, and alternated drop kicking, and throwing the mount & optic down range.
I love your testing methods:p
The first outfit to make a low profile scout mount for a 1" light with a QD throw lever will get my money, ADM or LT, though all my other stuff is LT. I am still waiting for a QD mount for TD VFG at a reasonable price. Though many say there is no reason for this, I still say that it gets pretty hard getting all these scoped, tac lighted and VFG equipped rifles in my safe. And I can only shoot one at time, so moving lights and VFGs from one gun to another makes good sense.
Robb Jensen
12-07-07, 04:47
It's fits the upper and Aimpoint nicely. It doesn't allow the Aimpoint rubber cover to be used with the Aimpoint battery cap that stores a spare battery.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/4sale013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/4sale010.jpg
The first outfit to make a low profile scout mount for a 1" light with a QD throw lever will get my money,
I've been waiting for the same for quite some time. LT makes their offset mount, but I want one with no offset.
It's fits the upper and Aimpoint nicely. It doesn't allow the Aimpoint rubber cover to be used with the Aimpoint battery cap that stores a spare battery.
Nice blaster.
Re: light mounts. Isn't this (http://www.vltor.com/images/vscout2-600px.jpg) low profile enough? It's not a lever, but it's still pretty quick to attach/detach.
Re: light mounts. Isn't this (http://www.vltor.com/images/vscout2-600px.jpg) low profile enough? It's not a lever, but it's still pretty quick to attach/detach.
I already have that one. It doesn't do what I want it to, for a variety of reasons.
I already have that one. It doesn't do what I want it to, for a variety of reasons.
Just out of curiosity, where does it fall short for your application? Is your issue with the distance the adjustement nut sticks out? Something else?
Just out of curiosity, where does it fall short for your application? Is your issue with the distance the adjustement nut sticks out? Something else?
I don't think that twisting that nut is "QD". For one thing, if I don't tighten it down with a wrench it works loose under recoil, and for another it relies on the same clamping action to secure it to the rail as it does to secure the light, meaning that the light can move when it's not on the rail.
I don't think that twisting that nut is "QD". For one thing, if I don't tighten it down with a wrench it works loose under recoil, and for another it relies on the same clamping action to secure it to the rail as it does to secure the light, meaning that the light can move when it's not on the rail.
Gotcha.
I don't think that twisting that nut is "QD". For one thing, if I don't tighten it down with a wrench it works loose under recoil, and for another it relies on the same clamping action to secure it to the rail as it does to secure the light, meaning that the light can move when it's not on the rail.
Yep...I wonder why no one has made one yet...Hopefully soon.
BravoCompanyUSA
12-10-07, 10:12
The RECON-1" came has now been released. (has 1" rings)
www.bravocompanyusa.com/SearchResults.asp?mfg=American+Defense+MFG (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SearchResults.asp?mfg=American+Defense+MFG)
The extended version (RECON-X) in 1" will come out later this week.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/IMG_0594.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/IMG_0595.jpg
Anyone got a picture of a DMS-1 in one of the standard mounts mounted on a AR?
Is BCM the sole source on these at this time??
Is BCM the sole source on these at this time??
No. There are other dealers, such as myself with access to the ADM product. BCM is my distributor, however.
Another picture.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%20II/IMG_9232%201028%20Stick.jpg
The Archangel
12-13-07, 11:11
It's fits the upper and Aimpoint nicely. It doesn't allow the Aimpoint rubber cover to be used with the Aimpoint battery cap that stores a spare battery.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/4sale013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/4sale010.jpg
I bet that sucka is LOUD!!! I had one of those MB/FH on my middy and got rid of it after one shooting session. Rattled my teeth with a 16", it must make your fillings fall out on that SBR.
I got mine zeroed today. We'll see how it does over 3 days on the SR15 at Pat's class starting tomorrow.
Is BCM the sole source on these at this time??
Lots of out here who carry them.
Is BCM the sole source on these at this time??
We have them in stock as well and are a Distr.
C4
We have them in stock as well and are a Distr.
Website addition??
bullitt5172
12-13-07, 21:57
Funnily enough, I was just packing this morning for a range visit tomorrow, and I was putting my Larue mounted 3-9x scope in the case, and had to remind myself to take the special wrench.
Hopefully these ADM mounts work out well and I can ditch the wrenches forever.
Once you set the tension there is no reason to adjust the nut on the lever? They don't loosen over time. Why is this such an issue for you?
ETA - I just read that you change the mount from gun to gun. I can see how it might be easier with a screw, but 99% of use leave the mount on the gun and therefore is not an issue. I'm glad that they are American made but I see NO reason to pick one over a LaRue mount IMO. If they were considerably cheaper than maybe.
I'm glad that they are American made but I see NO reason to pick one over a LaRue mount IMO. If they were considerably cheaper than maybe.
I like trying out new gear. I have two Larue SPR's and I will probably get one more.
I will probably try out ADM's Aimpoint cantilever mount though.
Once you set the tension there is no reason to adjust the nut on the lever? They don't loosen over time. Why is this such an issue for you?
ETA - I just read that you change the mount from gun to gun. I can see how it might be easier with a screw, but 99% of use leave the mount on the gun and therefore is not an issue. I'm glad that they are American made but I see NO reason to pick one over a LaRue mount IMO. If they were considerably cheaper than maybe.
I wouldn't replace a Larue mount with one, but the jury is still out as to whether or not I'd actually pick one over the other.
I wonder though, what is your experience firsthand with the ADM mount that causes you to write it off so quickly?
Website addition??
Soon. Just call me if you want some.
C4
Once you set the tension there is no reason to adjust the nut on the lever? They don't loosen over time. Why is this such an issue for you?
ETA - I just read that you change the mount from gun to gun. I can see how it might be easier with a screw, but 99% of use leave the mount on the gun and therefore is not an issue. I'm glad that they are American made but I see NO reason to pick one over a LaRue mount IMO. If they were considerably cheaper than maybe.
I don't think anyone is saying that people need and or should sell their LT products and buy ADM. They are another option that is a couple dollars cheaper and in some instances lighter. They also do not need a special tool to tighten down the lever. For some people, this is a big deal and for others, it isn't.
Options are always a good thing for the consumer.
C4
bullitt5172
12-14-07, 10:16
I wouldn't replace a Larue mount with one, but the jury is still out as to whether or not I'd actually pick one over the other.
I wonder though, what is your experience firsthand with the ADM mount that causes you to write it off so quickly?
I have no experience with them and I do not plan to. The LaRue crew gives me the best customer service in the industry, makes every mount I need and I've never had an issue with them. That said, I don't need to try out the ADM mounts, I haven't talked bad about them, I said I have no use for them. When they come out with a new design (and not a direct copy of a LaRue mount with a new lever) I'll consider them.
I have no experience with them and I do not plan to. The LaRue crew gives me the best customer service in the industry, makes every mount I need and I've never had an issue with them. That said, I don't need to try out the ADM mounts, I haven't talked bad about them, I said I have no use for them. When they come out with a new design (and not a direct copy of a LaRue mount with a new lever) I'll consider them.
Got a question for ya. Have you looked at the KAC 25284 mount? http://www.knightarmco.com/mod_weapons_2.htm
If you take the time to look at their Aimpoint mounts, you will also notice a resemblence that A LOT of other manufacturers use. ;)
All manufacturers take a piece of this design and a piece of that design and combine them. If anything KAC is the orignator of levers on optics mounts. Most everyone in the industry follows their designs to a certain degree.
So in truth, ADM mounts are a copy of the KAC mounts. Their levers are like no one elses and is why they have a patent pending on them.
C4
bullitt5172
12-14-07, 10:33
Got a question for ya. Have you looked at the KAC 25284 mount? http://www.knightarmco.com/mod_weapons_2.htm
If you take the time to look at their Aimpoint mounts, you will also notice a resemblence that A LOT of other manufacturers use. ;)
All manufacturers take a piece of this design and a piece of that design and combine them. If anything KAC is the orignator of levers on optics mounts. Most everyone in the industry follows their designs to a certain degree.
So in truth, ADM mounts are a copy of the KAC mounts. Their levers are like no one elses and is why they have a patent pending on them.
C4
Follow yes, but there are many different styles out there. This same thread on barfcom went into the toilet and was locked because ML tried to defend his product.
KAC, ARMS, GG&G, PRi, Wilcox all have unique looking mounts. Take a look at the following and tell me they are not copies :D If this were a Chinese company we could be complaining they were knock-off's. At least these are quality mounts, unlike the copies of our ACOG that are out there! The more I look at them the more I like them. I did read that they are actually heavier than the LaRue mounts even with the holes, anyone weigh one yet and compare?
LaRue
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/bglimpse/you_be_the_judge.jpg
ADM
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/bglimpse/adm3.jpg
Follow yes, but there are many different styles out there. There are direct copies (by appearance) with some holes added. This same thread on barfcom went into the toilet and was locked because ML tried to defend his product.
KAC, ARMS, GG&G, PRi, Wilcox all have unique looking mounts. Take a look at the following and tell me they are not copies :D If this were a Chinese company we could be complaining they were knock-off's. At least these are quality mounts, unlike the copies of our ACOG that are out there!
As I have tried to point out, ADM mounts are more of a copy of KAC than of LT. Yes I read that thread and found it silly to say the least with a lot of incorrect info in it.
When LT products first came out, everyone on TOS was screaming that LT products were a copy of ARMS & KAC mounts (to include the lever). LT took parts that they liked from KAC, ARMS, etc and of course their own designs and rolled them all together to produce their mounts. From a manufacturing standpoint, it is always a good idea to look at the market place and exam what is a popular design and what isn't and then build off of that.
It is funny to me that now that LT is top dog in the mounts market, that people are screaming the EXACT same thing that ARMS lovers were saying.
The circle is now complete.
C4
To follow up, on my comments about ADM. What matters most in a mount is the following:
1. Does it repeat zero?
2. Is it quick on and off with out a tool?
3. Is a special tool needed to adjust the lever?
4. Is the mount quality (meaning will it handle abuse)?
ADM passes all of the above test's. I do agree that their mounts (in some ways) look very much like a LT mount, in others they do not. IMHO, the ONLY part that looks like a LT mount is the base plate (that part that the lever attaches too) and the stem or neck that interfaces into the ring. That is it.
The ADM mount's have different ring design, different lever, different locking mechanism, and different lever adjustment method. So to say that it is an exact copy of a LT mount couldn't be farther from the truth IMHO.
C4
bullitt5172
12-14-07, 10:58
As I have tried to point out, ADM mounts are more of a copy of KAC than of LT. Yes I read that thread and found it silly to say the least with a lot of incorrect info in it.
When LT products first came out, everyone on TOS was screaming that LT products were a copy of ARMS & KAC mounts (to include the lever). LT took parts that they liked from KAC, ARMS, etc and of course their own designs and rolled them all together to produce their mounts. From a manufacturing standpoint, it is always a good idea to look at the market place and exam what is a popular design and what isn't and then build off of that.
It is funny to me that now that LT is top dog in the mounts market, that people are screaming the EXACT same thing that ARMS lovers were saying.
The circle is now complete.
C4
Please don't lump me into that group, I just want what works. I'm just stating some points that are fairly obvious. They can all survive!
Please don't lump me into that group, I just want what works. I'm just stating some points that are fairly obvious. They can all survive!
I am not lumping you in, but from reading the thread on TOS, we are seeing the same arguments that I defended LT against during the ARMS days.
Your points are valid ones as are mine.
C4
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/bglimpse/you_be_the_judge.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/bglimpse/adm3.jpg
Speaking of copying...
bullitt5172
12-14-07, 15:30
Speaking of copying...
What's your point Stick, that I copied the photos from ARF? Wow, you got me there :rolleyes:
What's your point Stick, that I copied the photos from ARF? Wow, you got me there
Stick's point has nothing to do with you. He is merely pointing out that his original
photo of the ADM mounts was copied by someone ( mfingar? ) in camp LaRue.
This was not pointed out in the locked thread on TOS. People were left under the
impression that someone even went as far as to copy an original LaRue photo.
Not the case.
That said, I have both an ADM 68H and Cantilever model inbound. As soon as I
have had a chance to evaluate them, I will add my thoughts to this thread along
with my impressions of the AD RECON I am currently testing.
bullitt5172
12-14-07, 15:59
Stick's point has nothing to do with you. He is merely pointing out that his original
photo of the ADM mounts was copied by someone ( mfingar? ) in camp LaRue.
This was not pointed out in the locked thread on TOS. People were left under the
impression that someone even went as far as to copy an original LaRue photo.
Not the case.
That said, I have both an ADM 68H and Cantilever model inbound. As soon as I
have had a chance to evaluate them, I will add my thoughts to this thread along
with my impressions of the AD RECON I am currently testing.
I apologize then, I thought he was attacking me for posting the photo :D I'll go back to trying to pick out a new upper now....
Jay Cunningham
12-14-07, 16:35
The best mount will win in the end. If they have violated one of his patents, he can get it taken care of legally.
M. LaRue brings most of this drama down upon everyone himself.
I'm glad it stays off of this board (pretty much).
The best mount will win in the end. If they have violated one of his patents, he can get it taken care of legally.
M. LaRue brings most of this drama down upon everyone himself.
I'm glad it stays off of this board (pretty much).
I think both products are winners and don't think one will run over the other.
The patent that LT has with their levers is with the locking system. That is it. So there is no violation of any patents that I can see.
2008 will bring us no less than 3 new lever designs from 3 different companies (two of them are large companies with deep pockets). These three do not include ADM. ;)
C4
Jay Cunningham
12-14-07, 16:51
I think both products are winners and don't think one will run over the other.
The patent that LT has with their levers is with the locking system. That is it. So there is no violation of any patents that I can see.
2008 will bring us no less than 3 new lever designs from 3 different companies (two of them are large companies with deep pockets). These three do not include ADM. ;)
C4
Yay! Competition!!
So much good gear is coming out now, compared to so much crap in the past.
Hopefully the rifles will stay legal...
:eek:
bullitt5172
12-14-07, 16:54
Yay! Competition!!
So much good gear is coming out now, compared to so much crap in the past.
Hopefully the rifles will stay legal...
:eek:
Agreed, all these great mounts will be useless without the evil black rifle.
[Stick] is merely pointing out that his original photo of the ADM mounts was copied by someone ( mfingar? ) in camp LaRue. This was not pointed out in the locked thread on TOS. People were left under the impression that someone even went as far as to copy an original LaRue photo. Not the case.
That wasn't implied, and I didn't see where people were under that impression.
There was discussion on the similarity of the overall configurations, and someone from LaRue provided that photo illustrating that similarity in overall configuration. Of course, the designs differ in many areas as well.
2008 will bring us no less than 3 new lever designs from 3 different companies (two of them are large companies with deep pockets). These three do not include ADM. ;)
Yeah, Shot Show will be interesting!
...we are seeing the same arguments that I defended LT against during the ARMS days.
Sure, there are similarities in the discussions.
There are also big differences in the comaprison of LT & ARMS and ADM & LT.
LT mounts arrived on the scene with clear, demonstrable advantages over ARMS: adjustability to provide ideal fit on rails of various dimensions, machined levers vice fracture-prone MIM, and return-to-zero capability.
LaRue advanced the state-of-the-art in mounts. I've read ADM's ad copy, but I'm not really seeing any major advances. In fact, the extent of ADM's return-to-zero capability is still an unknown. I'm not going to knock them; competition benefits the consumer. Time will tell how the customer base here and elsewhere rates the ADM products.
Sure, there are similarities in the discussions.
There are also big differences in the comaprison of LT & ARMS and ADM & LT.
LT mounts arrived on the scene with clear, demonstrable advantages over ARMS: adjustability to provide ideal fit on rails of various dimensions, machined levers vice fracture-prone MIM, and return-to-zero capability.
LaRue advanced the state-of-the-art in mounts. I've read ADM's ad copy, but I'm not really seeing any major advances. In fact, the extent of ADM's return-to-zero capability is still an unknown. I'm not going to knock them; competition benefits the consumer. Time will tell how the customer base here and elsewhere rates the ADM products.
IMHO, the ADM return to zero capability has already been proven. I have done some repeat zero tests and have gotten feedback from others (whose opinion I trust) that they do repeat zero.
C4
I would love to try an ADM but they don't seem to be priced competitively. The advantages they offer over the current leader are minimal at best. Where is the incentive to purchase their mount?
BravoCompanyUSA
12-14-07, 22:15
We did testing with return to zero with an 68 series prototype and a 3X. It was excellent.
The ADM clamping surface area is very large.
The clamping system is much different that other QD levers. The clamp is actually the entire side of the mount. This pic gives a good visual.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/IMG_7125.jpg
With a full length clamping surface that large makes easy work of return to zero.
BravoCompanyUSA
12-14-07, 22:29
A few months back I got to play around with a prototype lever and base.
One of the tests I did was to install the base on a flat top. With the lever open (90 degrees), I tightened the adjustment (with small flat head) as far as it would go. I then took a claw hammer and beat the lever closed. Then I took a large flat blade screw driver and pryed the lever open. I must have done this abuse test hundreds of times over several days. The base looks like crap from me beating a full size carpenter hammer on it, but it still works. And it works 100%. I was really kind of trying to find the point at which it would break. I was actually expecting to break the crossbolt or something... but nothing broke.
When I did this abuse test I was imagining a LCpl (E-3) in the field, not reading the directions, figuring more is better and overtightening everything, and then using his K-Bar to smash the lever closed. I used to be that E-3 .:D
Below is a pic of the base on my desk. It is a prototype and did not have the lock put into it yet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/proto17beat.jpg
They are tough mounts.
will Brownells carry them ? :)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2573Medium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2578Medium.jpg
Submariner
12-15-07, 14:16
will Brownells carry them ? :)
Better question: Will the dealer discount apply if they do carry them?
Even then, how do they beat Mark LaRue's service?
I would love to try an ADM but they don't seem to be priced competitively. The advantages they offer over the current leader are minimal at best. Where is the incentive to purchase their mount?
Everything is always in the eye of the beholder. I am not sure though how you can say that they are not priced competitively. Let's take a closer look the price of Aimpoint mounts:
Popular Standard Aimpoint Mounts
LT-150 $115
AD-68H $105
ARMS #22M68 & Full Spacer $122
Popular Cantilever Aimpoint Mounts
LT-129 $140
AD-68C $135
ARMS #22M68 & Cantilever Spacer $142
GG&G Cantilever mount $212
I personally don't care which mount you buy (as I sell them all), but to say that the AD isn't priced "competitively" is not accurate and if anything AD is the lowest cost option out there.
C4
A few months back I got to play around with a prototype lever and base.
One of the tests I did was to install the base on a flat top. With the lever open (90 degrees), I tightened the adjustment (with small flat head) as far as it would go. I then took a claw hammer and beat the lever closed. Then I took a large flat blade screw driver and pryed the lever open. I must have done this abuse test hundreds of times over several days. The base looks like crap from me beating a full size carpenter hammer on it, but it still works. And it works 100%. I was really kind of trying to find the point at which it would break. I was actually expecting to break the crossbolt or something... but nothing broke.
When I did this abuse test I was imagining a LCpl (E-3) in the field, not reading the directions, figuring more is better and overtightening everything, and then using his K-Bar to smash the lever closed. I used to be that E-3 .:D
Below is a pic of the base on my desk. It is a prototype and did not have the lock put into it yet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/proto17beat.jpg
They are tough mounts.
Thanks for the post Paul. Did you have the ADM mount on a rail when you were closing the lever with a hammer? If you did have it on a rail, was there any damage to the rail?
C4
Everything is always in the eye of the beholder. I am not sure though how you can say that they are not priced competitively. Let's take a closer look the price of Aimpoint mounts:
Popular Standard Aimpoint Mounts
LT-150 $115
AD-68H $105
ARMS #22M68 & Full Spacer $122
Popular Cantilever Aimpoint Mounts
LT-129 $140
AD-68C $135
ARMS #22M68 & Cantilever Spacer $142
GG&G Cantilever mount $212
I personally don't care which mount you buy (as I sell them all), but to say that the AD isn't priced "competitively" is not accurate and if anything AD is the lowest cost option out there.
C4
Agreed...I don't think that came out as I intended. To rephrase (and this is not directed at Grant), I am trying to see the incentive to buy a mount that supposedly (and I say this only because they haven't been out long) performs the same as the current standard at approx. the same price. I run lots of LaRue gear (because it works, not because I'm a big fanboy), what is the ADM selling point? Somebody sell me on why my next mount should be an ADM (as this should be the goal of introducing this product line). I don't see any substantial improvement in capability or significant savings. Unless I'm missing something, I'll keep hoping for someone to better the mousetrap or substantially lower the cost of producing the widget.
Agreed...I don't think that came out as I intended. To rephrase (and this is not directed at Grant), I am trying to see the incentive to buy a mount that supposedly (and I say this only because they haven't been out long) performs the same as the current standard at approx. the same price. I run lots of LaRue gear (because it works, not because I'm a big fanboy), what is the ADM selling point? Somebody sell me on why my next mount should be an ADM (as this should be the goal of introducing this product line). I don't see any substantial improvement in capability or significant savings. Unless I'm missing something, I'll keep hoping for someone to better the mousetrap or substantially lower the cost of producing the widget.
Understand what your saying. Some people love LT gear and some do not. ADM IMHO, is for the folks that don't like LT gear (for whatever reason) and that is their selling point.
With the cost of raw materials and US Labor rate for a shop hour, I don't think you are going to see a mount that is lower in cost with a greater capability (sorry). If your happy with LT mounts then I can't see any reason for you to change.
C4
bullitt5172
12-15-07, 15:11
Understand what your saying. Some people love LT gear and some do not. ADM IMHO, is for the folks that don't like LT gear (for whatever reason) and that is their selling point.
With the cost of raw materials and US Labor rate for a shop hour, I don't think you are going to see a mount that is lower in cost with a greater capability (sorry). If your happy with LT mounts then I can't see any reason for you to change.
C4
This thread should be closed after this last post. Grant made a great point, there are those who don't like LaRue mounts because they don't like ML. Maybe the ADM mounts will allow those who despise the LT crew to now have a better choice than GG&G and ARMS.
Understand what your saying. Some people love LT gear and some do not. ADM IMHO, is for the folks that don't like LT gear (for whatever reason) and that is their selling point.
With the cost of raw materials and US Labor rate for a shop hour, I don't think you are going to see a mount that is lower in cost with a greater capability (sorry). If your happy with LT mounts then I can't see any reason for you to change.
C4
Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the honest opinion Grant! Now, if they come out with a Comp M4 mount I may have to try it to see how it compares. :D
Better question: Will the dealer discount apply if they do carry them?
Even then, how do they beat Mark LaRue's service?
What service is that? Throwing hats and dillos at you? Have you broken a lot of his mounts and had to have them replace? No.
Submariner
12-15-07, 19:58
What service is that? Throwing hats and dillos at you? Have you broken a lot of his mounts and had to have them replace? No.
Sorry, I've never gotten a LaRue hat. Nor have I had an ADM mount thrown at me for T&E. Mark LaRue sent me two for free after Pat Rogers (can I say that name now?) suggested I contact him following an EAG class back in 2003 (we had ARMS mounts in class). Since then I have purchased 16 Aimpoint mounts, three ACOG mounts, and a dozen Surefire mounts.
Personally, I lost one of the screws to my daughter's LT150. Mark sent four out so we got them in time for a class. Has ADM done this for anyone? I hope so.
By testimony of higher ups on this board, LaRue has been very responsive to end-users, tweaking designs to meet real-life needs. Has ADM done this? If so, tell us so we will be suitably impressed.
If you are a principal at ADM, why don't you simply cut your price if you want market share? Even if you are "just as good as LaRue", nothing beats a discount. Maybe you can buy loyalty.
And maybe not.
ADDED:
Better question: Will the dealer discount apply if they do carry them?
Even then, how do they beat Mark LaRue's service?
How about answering the first question now that you have taken your cheap shot on the second?
Even JA Ceiner's stuff gets discounted at Brownells.
Robb Jensen
12-15-07, 20:04
Advanced Micro Devices? ;)
I apologize then, I thought he was attacking me for posting the photo :D I'll go back to trying to pick out a new upper now....
I don't make personal attacks, if it came across that way, you have my apology.
Sorry, I've never gotten a LaRue hat. Nor have I had an ADM mount thrown at me for T&E. Mark LaRue sent me two for free after Pat Rogers (can I say that name now?) suggested I contact him following an EAG class back in 2003 (we had ARMS mounts in class). Since then I have purchased 16 Aimpoint mounts, three ACOG mounts, and a dozen Surefire mounts.
Personally, I lost one of the screws to my daughter's LT150. Mark sent four out so we got them in time for a class. Has ADM done this for anyone? I hope so.
By testimony of higher ups on this board, LaRue has been very responsive to end-users, tweaking designs to meet real-life needs. Has ADM done this? If so, tell us so we will be suitably impressed.
If you are a principal at ADM, why don't you simply cut your price if you want market share? Even if you are "just as good as LaRue", nothing beats a discount. Maybe you can buy loyalty.
And maybe not.
ADDED:
How about answering the first question now that you have taken your cheap shot on the second?
Even JA Ceiner's stuff gets discounted at Brownells.
A lot of what you said is very loaded and I simply won't respond to any of it.
To clarify, 4 screws? That's great customer service? It's good customer service but surely no reason to discount another maker. If it were me, and I'm sure I'm noone special, I'd gladly send out screws to make my mount useful again as opposed to let it go unusable. To me, anything else would be foolish.
Cut price to get a market share? No need to now. Their market share, as stated earlier was created by Mark and his antics. Someone found a niche and jumped in head first. That's not their fault and at least they aren't advertising "Since you don't like ML, come buy ours."
I like Mark. I used to hate his antics but I respect the guy an awful lot but there's no reason to look down on these mounts just because they aren't his.
And yes, Mark has made what people need, no doubt about that- take for instance the little flare launcher that he made and was willing to send out in bulk to the guy that requested them. That's top notch service. BUT you seem to be stating that ADM WILL NOT DO THE SAME and that's total bullshit.
Question re: ADM Aimpoint mounts...
At some point during production there appears to have been a change in design, the difference being 2 vice 3 threaded inserts at the bottom of the rings.
Which is the newer (current) design?
Are the left & right rings interchangable on the base on the 2-insert design, on the the 3-insert design, on neither, or on both?
Thanks.
I don't understand the hostility, LT didn't invent the throw lever and they don't control 100% of the market. It is a new product...buy it or don't but I doubt anyone will throw rocks at you either way.
Submariner
12-16-07, 08:37
A lot of what you said is very loaded and I simply won't respond to any of it.
And then you proceed to respond selectively. Got it.:D
To service but surely no reason to discount another maker. If it were me, and I'm sure I'm noone special, I'd gladly send out screws to make my mount useful again as opposed to let it go unusable. To me, anything else would be foolish.
But did he have to overnight them?
Oh, and nice job of ignoring the two free mounts. There is someone who wants business. I have seen "soft" ARMS mounts replaced in class, both those that are broken and even those that are not. Again, free.
My son was awarded an LT mount, along with TangoDown VFG, rail covers and Battle Grip for being high shooter in a class.
Does ADM currently do this? They will if they want to get market share.
Cut price to get a market share? No need to now. Their market share, as stated earlier was created by Mark and his antics. Someone found a niche and jumped in head first. That's not their fault and at least they aren't advertising "Since you don't like ML, come buy ours."
Oh, really?
Understand what your saying. Some people love LT gear and some do not. ADM IMHO, is for the folks that don't like LT gear (for whatever reason) and that is their selling point.
Might "whatever reason" include not liking ML, especially if "some people" follow the internet soap opera drama?
I like Mark. I used to hate his antics but I respect the guy an awful lot but there's no reason to look down on these mounts just because they aren't his.
And yes, Mark has made what people need, no doubt about that- take for instance the little flare launcher that he made and was willing to send out in bulk to the guy that requested them. That's top notch service. BUT you seem to be stating that ADM WILL NOT DO THE SAME and that's total bullshit.
Bullshit? Don't put words in my mouth. ADM hasn't sent me a crystal ball, either. I asked if ADM HAS done the same and suggested that if so, the evidence ought to be presented.
Aspirations are not the same as performance. Agreed?
The Brownells issue is still in play. How about responding? As I peruse their latest catalog, I see no business discounts for Surefire. But there are for MagPul, Aimpoint, Eotech, V-Tac, and even the highly-touted Vickers Sling. How many folks reading these boards check Brownells before ordering? Just to save a buck or two. How many dealers pick a price point based on what Brownells charges?
There has to be some margin in there somewhere for Brownells to take a slice and still sell to a reseller. Or an end user. Brownells may become the WalMart of the gear world.
With the cost of raw materials and US Labor rate for a shop hour, I don't think you are going to see a mount that is lower in cost with a greater capability (sorry).
Sorry, I disagree. Look at LaRue’s combo packages for Aimpoints. He damn near gives the mount away. And I’ll bet he still makes money, stays at or above his contractual minimum advertised price for Aimpoint AND keeps market share.
A manufacturer can do this. A reseller is hard-pressed to do so. Evidence: Grant's frequent buyer coupon was not good on combo packages. (Same is true for LT's 10% off coupon; it is only good on LT-manufactured goods.) LT stuff wasn't included in Grant's coupon deal, either. Margins to thin? This is my bet.
It's all about making money.
2008 will bring us no less than 3 new lever designs from 3 different companies (two of them are large companies with deep pockets). These three do not include ADM. ;)
C4
[sarcasm]Well isn't that just wonderful?[/sarcams] I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on a ADM Recon. I was just trying to figure out whether the extended version or normal length version allows for proper eye relief when nose to charging handle shooting is used. Now I have to wait and see what the three new designs are.
Hey Grant-
Isn't this site about "knowing the product you are talking about- firsthand" and not going off of speculation or emotion?
If so, half the Bullshit in this thread ought to be removed.
Submariner- the comment about the market share was kind of a joke since someone else brought that up.
The screws- if I didn't need to respond to that item then you didn't need to bring it up- the mounts was a good enough example, no?
This thread should be closed after this last post. Grant made a great point, there are those who don't like LaRue mounts because they don't like ML. Maybe the ADM mounts will allow those who despise the LT crew to now have a better choice than GG&G and ARMS.
Ahh, I never said that people don't like LT mounts because of ML. If you read TOS, you will of course see those people, but there are actually people out there that do not like how their levers engage the rail or that you have to have a tool to adjust the lever. This is really what I was referring too.
IMHO, people shouldn't choose to buy or not buy a product based SOLELY on the actions of the owner. Let the product stand on its own two feet.
If I only stocked products from companies based on what the owner was like or how they treated me, I would have about 5 products on the shelf.
I think people would be surprised to find out that most dealers either have no relationship with the owners of the companies they carry or just don't like the owners/management at all.
C4
Sorry, I disagree. Look at LaRue’s combo packages for Aimpoints. He damn near gives the mount away. And I’ll bet he still makes money, stays at or above his contractual minimum advertised price for Aimpoint AND keeps market share.
A manufacturer can do this. A reseller is hard-pressed to do so. Evidence: Grant's frequent buyer coupon was not good on combo packages. (Same is true for LT's 10% off coupon; it is only good on LT-manufactured goods.) LT stuff wasn't included in Grant's coupon deal, either. Margins to thin? This is my bet.
It's all about making money.
We offer the same prices on LT combos as LT does and also have package deals with ADM mounts: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=104800#post104800
We would like to offer forum member discounts on LT products, but the margins are just too thin.
Everyone needs to make money to survive. That is for sure.
C4
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