View Full Version : 9 mm 124 gr testing
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I get the bare gelatin and four layer denim abbreviations, but what is "AG"? Auto glass?
At any rate, thanks for posting.
Automobile laminated front windshield glass (AG) intermediate barrier placed at 45 degree angle, 18 inches in front of gel block.
BufordTJustice
08-31-11, 03:35
Fantastic work, Doc!
In your experience, is there a meaningful difference (or improvement) in the terminal performance of the 147gr HST and the 147gr +P HST?
Again, your work is a credit to the forum and much appreciated. :)
No agency has ever asked us to test the 147 gr +P HST, so I don't have any data comparing the two. Let me see if we can get a box and we'll take a look at it.
BufordTJustice
08-31-11, 04:18
No agency has ever asked us to test the 147 gr +P HST, so I don't have any data comparing the two. Let me see if we can get a box and we'll take a look at it.
I am very interested to see the results if you get the chance.
The factory figures do not indicate an enormous increase in MV and the non +P loading is much more readily available online.
I carry a G26 for off-duty with my agency. We issue 124gr +P Gold Dots for 9mm. However, when I travel out of county (and sometimes out of state), I am left to carry my own ammunition and I'd like to gain every bit of performance I can from my G26's short barrel.
I know you're busy, and thank you again for taking the time.
Thanks Doc. Any ways we could also get some Speer 124gr + P tested?
C4
http://www.lightfighter.net/forum/ballistics-and-projectile-performance
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Thanks Doc!
Do you have any data on the Winchester RA9124TP 9mm 124 gr. +P Ranger T-Series? My department originally issued the Federal Hydra Shok 124+p+ but switched a few years ago to the Winchester load. Our duty issued pistols are G19s and G26s...
THanks in advance.
Outstanding information as usual,and once again,thank you for continuing to provide this valuable info.
http://www.lightfighter.net/forum/ballistics-and-projectile-performance
http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition
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We have issued the 124gr +P Gold Dot for years, and it has been a VERY successful police duty load for us.
In 2006 we could not get the Gold Dot so I issued the 124gr +P Ranger-T load, and we found through several OISs that this was also a superb choice for duty/carry.
http://www.lightfighter.net/forum/ballistics-and-projectile-performance
http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/ju3u5ybu.jpg
What's great is how many good choices there are today.
Thanks to names like Fackler, Wolberg, McPherson, our own Dr. Roberts, and all the other IWBA guys, the ammo world is a very different place today then it was 30 years ago.
Looks as though standard jacket 9mm hollow points are still meeting the FBI minimum penetration through auto glass. Makes me wonder if there is even a need for bonded loads when the regular stuff is doing this well. Also......is there a point to the .40 now since the primary complaint about the 9mm in the late 80s was poor penetration through auto glass?
As noted previously, there is a great thread on this very issue over at LF:
http://www.lightfighter.net/forum/ballistics-and-projectile-performance
http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/ju3u5ybu.jpg
viperashes
09-02-11, 08:40
I saw the post on LF. Great post Doc. I feel very confident in my selection of Winchester 127gr +P+ (RA9TA) ammunition in both my Glock 19 and 26, and the ammunitions performance from both weapons.
Looks as though standard jacket 9mm hollow points are still meeting the FBI minimum penetration through auto glass. Makes me wonder if there is even a need for bonded loads when the regular stuff is doing this well. Also......is there a point to the .40 now since the primary complaint about the 9mm in the late 80s was poor penetration through auto glass?
It's a tough call, and I think Doc has covered it from the different angles. I personally have no use for .40, but if I were back on the streets, making vehicle stops, I might feel differently.
Bonded vs non-bonded, same thing. With some of the non-bonded rounds doing 90%+ as well as bonded in barriers, and exhibiting better performance in bare gel, I'd only worry about bonded if vehicles were a top concern.
Nephrology
09-02-11, 22:13
Great post.
One question - do you have any information on the difference between the Winchester 147gr Ranger-T series vs the 147gr Ranger SXTs?
Most of my carry battery is 124gr +P Gold Dots with some 147gr Golden Sabers for variety, but I aquired a box of the SXTs at some point or another (ordered them online sometime last year, thought they were the Ranger-Ts).
These aren't the civilian SXTs and they aren't the 8-petal, rather the 6 petal variety, but I have heard less than satisfactory things about the older SXT loads. I'm just not sure if I know how many different iterations of the SXT bullets there have been, and which ones I got my hands on...
Ranger-T is generally good to go, the older SXT variants, not so much...
Leatherneck556
09-03-11, 00:21
Doc, would you be able to post gel test results for 147gr Gold Dots (and possibly 180gr .40 Gold Dots) in this thread for easy comparison to the above 124(+P) GD results?
The department I'm looking at hiring onto issues 147gr GD in 9mm and 180gr GD in .40 S&W, and I'm just kind of curious to know the specific numbers - I'd be comfortable with carrying either one as they are both recommended.
Nephrology
09-03-11, 00:55
Ranger-T is generally good to go, the older SXT variants, not so much...
Copy. I'll replace them with some real ranger Ts, or more than likely just more gold dots. If it ain't broke....
I also might run them through my glocks for function test and then replace them with 147gr Ranger-Ts, as I figure if it will feed them, it will feed the Ranger Ts. I am not terribly worried about my Gen 3 Glocks feeding quality JHPs though... still first hand experience is better than blind faith.
9mm Speer 147 gr JHP Gold Dot (53619) fired from S&W 5906 at ave vel of 1010 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 15.8”, RD = 0.53”, RL = 0.49”, RW = 147.2 gr
4LD: Pen = 16.7”, RD = 0.53”, RL = 0.54”, RW = 146.2 gr
What's great is how many good choices there are today.
Thanks to names like Fackler, Wolberg, McPherson, our own Dr. Roberts, and all the other IWBA guys, the ammo world is a very different place today then it was 30 years ago. You nailed it,sir. I well remember the days when we struggled to create more effective handgun loads. As I've said before,the young guys have it made now. Just pick a load from Doc's list and GO!:D
Thanks Doc, I was very interested to see the 124+P HST and GS Bonded rounds tested. Both appear to be good performers and I will consider them when it it time to order more ammo (when my current supply of 124+P Gold Dot gets low) as I still prefer 124+P in 9mm. For some reason the 124+P HST has been more readily avaiable locally in quantity, at a decent price, than the 147 HST. I didn't want to invest heavily in it until I saw some testing other than what the factory published.
vicious_cb
09-05-11, 04:36
9mm Speer 147 gr JHP Gold Dot (53619) fired from S&W 5906 at ave vel of 1010 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 15.8”, RD = 0.53”, RL = 0.49”, RW = 147.2 gr
4LD: Pen = 16.7”, RD = 0.53”, RL = 0.54”, RW = 146.2 gr
Hmm. That RD seems kinda low compared with all the other loads tested.
Pistol Shooter
09-05-11, 08:23
Thanks for sharing this great information Doc. Much appreciated. :)
vicious_cb: The 147 gr Gold Dot has never worked as well as their 124. The 147 gr GD test I posted above was from a few years ago and it was not a stellar lot. Nonetheless even ATK's own data shows the 147 gr Gold Dot to lag a bit behind the 124 +P GD:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
vicious_cb
09-05-11, 15:31
Doc, what 147gr load would you consider to have the best performance out of the bunch? I dont mine carrying a 124gr +P but the lower impulse of a 147gr makes follow up shots much easier.
As always, I would pick the load that is most reliable and accurate in your pistol, as well as one that is readily available for a reasonable cost. Agencies here have had excellent success with the Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2) and Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T); others have reported good performance with the Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5) and Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364).
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use--I'd be satisfied carrying any of them:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
For those looking for the SPEER and Federal LE loads mentioned above, we have them in stock!
Federal HST P9HST3
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/FEDERAL/P9HST3_Box.jpg
Federal HST P9HST2
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/FEDERAL/P9HST2.jpg
SPEER LE GD53617
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/FEDERAL/53617.jpg
Federal Ammo: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=FEDL
SPEER Ammo:http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=SPEE
C4
Magic_Salad0892
09-21-11, 15:25
That quote about .40, isn't that something Kyle Defoor said? Or was it Jason Falla?...
Neither one of those gentlemen made the comment.
No agency has ever asked us to test the 147 gr +P HST, so I don't have any data comparing the two. Let me see if we can get a box and we'll take a look at it.
I'd also be interested in seeing the test results for this load.
BufordTJustice
10-04-11, 01:21
For what it's worth, I have a buddy who has 147 and 147+P HST that he let me shoot out of my G26.
I shot 4 rounds of each in different mags, back to back. Very little difference. I then alternated in the same magazine. Again, very little difference in recoil...and essentially identical POA/POI when shot offhand at 10 yards.
I should note that both of these are probably the most accurate rounds I've ever fired out of my G26.
I'm using a new LWD connector, 22lb wolff recoil springs (upgraded from a 20lb set), and a match grade slide lock from TR Graham. I was dead-nutz accurate off-hand at 50 yards. I banged steel silhouettes off-hand at 75 yards repeatedly using both the 147 and 147 +P rounds. I'm really impressed....was getting hits with shots that I think would have been flyers with my issued GDHP 124 +P's.
Recoil was more mild than with my agency-issue Gold Dot 124gr +P, though both are quite manageable in my G26. A stark contrast between the relationship of GDHP 124 and 124+P... I'm easily able to tell a difference in recoil between those two.
Looking forward to Doc's terminal data.
DocGKR...first, thank you.
Second, regarding the 9mm 124gr Gold Dot...
I understand that it does not perform as well as the +P version, but the "numbers" for the standard pressure version don't look too bad and comparable to some rounds that did make your recommended list (I realize that you have said it performs fine).
Thinking there's more to it, could you expound on it's absence from the list?
The 124 gr +P worked better... If someone needs a standard pressure 124 gr, then by all means, the Gold Dot is fine.
Thanks for the excellent info. :) Have you ever tested the Speer 115 gr +p+ Gold Dots?
Yes. Penetration is a bit shallow and the 124 gr Gold Dots eclipse it.
You can check it out yourself, using ATK's own data: http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
Thanks for the further information. =)
mediccomin4ya
10-18-12, 12:04
Has anyone did any tests on Buffalo Bore 9mm?
115/124grain +p/+p+
These are not in common use by LE agencies, so not much testing has been done on them.
Has anyone did any tests on Buffalo Bore 9mm?
115/124grain +p/+p+
The first thing I'd want to see on those is a pressure test.
I bought several of the BB loads, and after shooting them and looking at the cases after, I wonder what some of the pressures really are. Their "standard pressure" .38 special loads kicked significantly more than any of the +P's I've ever shot, regardless of brand or bullet weight, and I've shot thousands.
Agreed.I think some independant pressure testing would be a good idea.
I don't know if it has been brought up yet but I'd like to see some testing on Winchester's 124gr +P PDX1.
RA9BA is S9MMPDB (PDX1) AFAIK: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461
I don't know if it has been brought up yet but I'd like to see some testing on Winchester's 124gr +P PDX1.
Doc has tested that load, it's posted in this forum.
DOC, I am currently carring an M&P40 but have always favored and shot better with my 17. If you were to be doing consistent work around vehicles would you favor the GD 124+p or the HST 147?
S. Galbraith
11-03-12, 17:47
DOC, I am currently carring an M&P40 but have always favored and shot better with my 17. If you were to be doing consistent work around vehicles would you favor the GD 124+p or the HST 147?
The M&P may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date. I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant issues. Up to this point, we have not seen any major problems with M&P40/45's--they just keep steadily improving. Some M&P9's exhibit accuracy issues at ranges beyond 15 yds--hopefully S&W will soon rectify this inconsistency. The Apex duty kits can offer a substantial improvement for those who object to the OEM M&P trigger feel. An M&P40 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit will be the service pistol I'll pick if I ever go back to uniformed LE patrol duties again.
-Gary Roberts
Currently I am using 9 mm 147 gr HST, but I would be equally happy with the 124 gr +P Gold Dot; whichever I get for free, I'll carry...
Doc,
I saw an earlier thread asking about the new Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135 gr loads. They also have a 9mm +P load...any test yet? I'm more curious because of the grain of the projectile. It's also a bonded bullet unlike the Critical Defense.
Thank you for your time.
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