.45 ACP RA45T vs. P45HST2

[DocGKR]

For for over a decade, agencies here have typically used the .45 ACP 230 gr Win Ranger Talon or Fed HST loads in both standard pressure and +P versions. The Federal standard pressure P45HST2 load is currently being issued at a large California agency. We tested this HST duty load in contrast to the new revised RA45T loading.

Win 230 gr Ranger Talon JHP (RA45T) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 911 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.3", Ave RD = 0.70", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 227.2gr
4LD: Pen = 25.1", Ave RD = 0.45", Ave RL = 0.60", Ave RW = 228.8 gr
AG: Pen = 16.1", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.48", Ave RW = 189.6 gr

Fed HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 879 f/s; 5 shot ave below::
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.80", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 231.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 13.4", Ave RD = 0.55", Ave RL = 0.71", Ave RW = 231.2 gr
AG: Pen = 16.3", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.58", Ave RW = 230.6 gr

We have previously seen issues with some RA45T loads failing to expand through 4LD, as discussed here: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=85659&page=3. We had hoped that the newer Ranger Talon design would no longer exhibit this issue--clearly it has not been fully resolved... In addition, the new Ranger Talon purportedly offers larger expansion of the "talons". Unfortunately, most of this additional expansion is behind the leading edge of the projectile, so it is less likely to be touching and cutting tissue, as the temporary cavity forming at the leading edge of the projectile can stretch the tissue away from the expanded talons at the back of the bullet.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7643&filename=45%20bullets.jpg

The photo above illustrates current HST duty rounds to the left of the quarter--a BG shot is directly above a 4LD. To the right of the quarter is the 230 gr RA45T--top row into BG and bottom row into 4 LD. Note that one of the RA45T projectiles shot into BG is turned nose down to depict the wider expansion at the back of the bullet.

The current Federal .45 ACP standard pressure HST loading appears to have surpassed the Win Ranger Talon in overall terminal performance.

[DRT]

DocGKR,

Are you aware of any other quality issues with Ranger T ammo in other calibers, i.e. .40 or 9mm? I have several hundred rounds of .40 165gr RA40TA in the newer Tseries, and even more .40 180gr HST. I primarily load up with the HST but was curious if RA40TA is generally good-to-go.

Thanks

[DocGKR]

In the T-series, most of the issues have been with the .45, as noted previously.

[packinaglock]

This is a recent test of the 127g +p+ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSY018CXRi8&feature=feedu

and a little older one on the 165g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2dJPeVo_7s
Nether one faired very well, which kind of bummed me out since I have a few boxes of each.

DocGKR, I noticed the 165g HST didn't make your list, I have some of these also. Is there an issue with them? Thanks love your site.

[Abraxas]

Thank you so much doc for this and the other posts like it. Good to have current results.

[DocH]

Doc,thanks. I ran some unscientific testing last year on these and several other .45 loads from a 5 inch 1911 and a 4 in.Kimber.
With the 4 inch I had several of the RA45T that keyholed in the medium (wetpack,that's why it's unscientific:D). They did not do this from the full size 5 inch pistol. One side of the talons would be expanded well while the other side would not.
Have you experienced this with any of your better testing methods,or have you tested with a 4 inch or 4 1/4 inch pistol?
I have been thoroughly impressed with the HST1 and HST2 results in the .45

[DocGKR]

As the link in my first post discusses, they 230 gr Ranger Talon bullet can have issues with robust expansion at lower velocities...here is a photo from that link:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/182738622071.jpg

[DocH]

Thanks,Doc.Great info.

[Stump70]

Well it looks like I won't be undergunned with the HST pulls I am loading up. Thanks Doc.

[virtualpm]

I realize this thread is a bit stale, but search didn't turn up anything, and this thread seemed as good a place as any to post...
What about the Winchester Ranger 230gr Bonded - is it good to go, or no. I noticed Doc's "sticky" has the Ranger Bonded listed as good to go in 40 cal and 9mm, but not in .45 cal. Should I take this as intentional?

[DocGKR]

We have not done enough testing of the .45 ACP Win bonded loads to recommend them yet.

[DeltaKilo]

Doc, I have a dumb question regarding this. You say that the extra velocity of the +p load results in far more consistent expansion than the regular pressure, is that correct? Does that mean that the occasional failures to expand seen with the standard pressures do not occur (or occur with far less frequency) specifically with +p loadings?

[DocGKR]

That has been the case with the Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon projectiles we have tested--when the velocity is pushed up over 900 fps, the projectile acts normally, even when it failed to robustly expand at below 900 fps...

[DeltaKilo]

That has been the case with the Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon projectiles we have tested--when the velocity is pushed up over 900 fps, the projectile acts normally, even when it failed to robustly expand at below 900 fps...

Thanks boss, i appreciate it.