View Full Version : Is it legal to film LEO's?
platoonDaddy
08-31-11, 21:07
Reading the following story, I am confused if it is legal to film LEO's why is the DA moving forward?
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Man Faces Life In Jail For Recording Police
Every other case involving people arrested for filming cops has been thrown out of court, but media promulgates hoax that recording police is illegal
Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Infowars.com
Wednesday, August 31, 2011
http://www.infowars.com/man-faces-life-in-jail-for-recording-police/
The DA knows it is not illegal and is probably hoping to scare the accused into making a plea and set an example to others: Don't mess with the government!
The police are public officials operating in view of public. I have heard of cases that it is even legal to film someone in their house if they can be seen from a public space (sidewalk).
The long arm of the law has been replaced with The heavy hand of the State (we are the law!).
I could give a rats ass if someone is taping me while I'm in a public place. I don't know way so many PD's are getting themselves jammed up over this.
I wrote my opinion on this matter a little bit back...
http://tgace.wordpress.com/2011/08/14/do-shutterbugs-bug-you/
Dave-HuldraArms
08-31-11, 21:34
It is legal to film so long as you're not interfering with their duties or causing a safety hazard to yourself or others. There was very recently a state court decision affirming this, can't recall the state just read the article the other day.
I, as a full time LEO and trainer, don't care if Im recorded, hey its how we live now, everyone has a camera phone, and I have a camera too. I also teach this as some cops are really getting jammed up by over reacting to people recording them, its too bad that some cops out there make such poor choices. In some cases I have even solved cases by people recording incidents. One fight case I worked a person posted in on youtube, it was great for court. In another case, where force was involved, I politely asked a witness who was recording with her phone if she would provide a statement and allow us to view her recording. She was very helpful and made me an HD copy of a good arrest with proper force. So not every recording is bad, its just a culture thing, especially with the young, they just record stuff, its what they do.
If you don't want to be filmed than you're doing something you probably shouldn't.
And no it's not illegal to film any one in a public place, how do you think those girls gone wild videos are legal?
How do you think those girls gone wild videos are legal?
The women sign waivers. Otherwise they would obscure their faces.
The women sign waivers. Otherwise they would obscure their faces.
That's just being careful as to not get sued - or at least try to discourage litigation. If I take my pants down and wave my dingaling around in a public place and some one takes a picture I have zero expectation of privacy. Now I've personally broken the law in most state, but that's beside the point :D
Now if I use a telescopic lens to take pictures of some one with out their knowledge in many states I've broken the law because there is an expectation of privacy. http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/voyeurism_statutes_mar_09.pdf
ETA: The only times I can recall that public filming can be limited is when it comes to national security. 18 USC 795 http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/795.html Even than it's rarely enforced unless it's suspicious. Look at all the looney's at groom lake. :P
That's just being careful as to not get sued - or at least try to discourage litigation.
True, my error - nothing criminal if no waiver, just avoiding civil litigation....
Great, more ammo for the "us vs. them" division.
What I wouldn't give to get the assholes that we didn't used to tolerate OFF the street and in jail where they belong so cops can go back to dealing primarily with a peaceful community and we could see each other as part of that same community.
Sadly I understand why cops film everyone these days and I've seen more than a couple cops who needed to be filmed. Just depressing when I know the way it should be and can remember it fondly.
What an amazing unbiased article. :rolleyes:
I don't see the problem with recording anyone out in public, LEOs included, but that article is one slanted peice of crap.
Is everything just thinly veiled editorials now?
What an amazing unbiased article. :rolleyes:
I don't see the problem with recording anyone out in public, LEOs included, but that article is one slanted peice of crap.
Is everything just thinly veiled editorials now?
No, most of the press is blatantly biased and patronizing.
This is being discussed in another thread here. What's amazing is that this case is almost three years old.
With the "reporter" giving his view on how on earth people can still be arrested for this, given recent court cases...he fails to mention this occurred in 2008. What a dip shit.
The guy's bond was set at $350. I'm going to go out on a limb and say he won't be getting 75 years...if even found guilty. Keep in mind there has been case law, since 2008, that would suggest this would (and probably should be) more than likely be dropped.
platoonDaddy
09-01-11, 05:24
This is being discussed in another thread here. What's amazing is that this case is almost three years old.
With the "reporter" giving his view on how on earth people can still be arrested for this, given recent court cases...he fails to mention this occurred in 2008. What a dip shit.
The guy's bond was set at $350. I'm going to go out on a limb and say he won't be getting 75 years...if even found guilty. Keep in mind there has been case law, since 2008, that would suggest this would (and probably should be) more than likely be dropped.
From the following article, the hearing was scheduled for the 18Aug2011. I am unable to locate any article on the results of the hearing or even if it occurred. Certainly is one long drawn out case.
On January 13th, 2011 Allison filed a civil suit against the City of Robinson for false arrest and imprisonment. A week before his trial was set to kick-off this past May a pro bono lawyer stepped-up and filed a number of motions, including one that challenged the constitutionality of the eavesdropping statute. The jury was sent home and the judge ordered a continuance to allow for Lisa Madigan, Illinois attorney general, to respond. A hearing date is now scheduled for 18 August.
http://www.copblock.org/tag/michael-allison/
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 06:17
Dave-Huldraarms is correct.
I dont like being video taped by my dept. or anyone for that matter.
Does it come in handy, absolutely. I think i can articulate what occured in my report effectively enough to not need video/audio to back it up.
What i dont trust about civilians videotaping is the ability to manipulate the video. It is also distracting because if their video taping you, you have to wonder if they are associated with the person you are dealing with at that time and if they are a threat.
I have been video taped in the past and i have never gotten in trouble for it because i know it is not illegal. I still would rather not be video taped.
SWATcop556
09-01-11, 06:50
Anyone working in LE should realize that video cameras have been a part of what we do since Rodney King. It's a fact of life especially since everyone carries a camera disguised as a phone these days.
It's not illegal as long as it does not hinder the LEO or place anyone at a risk of injury.
If you don't want to be filmed then find a new line of work.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 07:03
Alot of us don't want to be filmed but that doesn't mean we should find a new line of work. Adapt and over come.
I will never be cool with it but it is part of the job just as much as dealing with stupid people and frivolous complaints.
The last dept I was with didn't have cameras or audio on us. Only thing with that capability was our taser. The new dept I am about to start with has cameras in the car and officers are mic'd.
It's something to deal with but it's not going to stop me from doing what I want. If there is someone who leaves the line of work because of it then they were probably doing something wrong.
I just watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mNlJYSIzjoU#t=49s
The reporter mentions "recording audio of law enforcement without their consent".
Well, as much as I respect LEO's.... if you put on that uniform and go out in public, you have already given consent. Your duty as a public servant involves working in public. Amazing concept, right? :eek:
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 09:30
kartoffel, i watched the video and that dude should start thinking about what to do with his millions after he sues the **** out that department. It is ridiculous that they are actually trying to go through with this. haha
Applying it to wire tapping legislation, come one that shit will not fly. I think it is a big stretch and an attempt to maybe craft some legislation in the future about recording officers on duty.
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 10:53
I am certain that video has also saved officers from false accusations. I don't see how video could not help everyone all around involved with LEOs.
SWATcop556
09-01-11, 11:01
I am certain that video has also saved officers from false accusations. I don't see how video could not help everyone all around involved with LEOs.
Exactly. My in car video saved my ass with IAD on more than one occasion. Video is not going anywhere. Hell there are departments that have shoulder cams in addition to in car video.
Video has also removed officers from departments that have no business being LE.
I'm with LL. I fail to see the downside of video other than recording the occasional restroom break with your mic still hot.
Belmont31R
09-01-11, 11:02
kartoffel, i watched the video and that dude should start thinking about what to do with his millions after he sues the **** out that department. It is ridiculous that they are actually trying to go through with this. haha
Applying it to wire tapping legislation, come one that shit will not fly. I think it is a big stretch and an attempt to maybe craft some legislation in the future about recording officers on duty.
Thats already illegal in IL as they currently have a statute against recording LEO's in public. Class 1 felony which also includes rape, murder, ect.
Here are the charges against him: http://www.judici.com/courts/cases/case_dispositions.jsp?court=IL017015J&ocl=IL017015J,2009CF50,IL017015JL2009CF50D1
If you don't want to be filmed then find a new line of work.
if you put on that uniform and go out in public, you have already given consent. Your duty as a public servant involves working in public.
I agree with both of those statements. Police Officers are paid by tax dollars taken from their local citizens who are in effect their customers who are paying for a service. If a citizen thinks there is reason to video the actions of an Officer than they are well within their rights to document their actions. The fact of the matter is that video protects Officers and citizens alike.
I am certain that video has also saved officers from false accusations. I don't see how video could not help everyone all around involved with LEOs.
Absolutely. Having video running at a traffic stop is smart insurance. Imagine how many frivolous lawsuits PD's have avoided just by having a camera running.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 11:31
As long as they are not in the officers way, crossing a crime scene or otherwise being a nusance of some sort then they are within their right. That's how it was in La.
I have asked people to end a cell phone call or not use the phone while on a traffic stop and when I am speaking to them generally because it is rude and I would not want someone to get the idea to call for back up to come try and woop my ass.
The thing is,some people are video taping police because they want them to react negatively and they inherently don't like police. A majority of them aren't video taping to make us look like heroes. They are baiting that jackass cop who is gonna go retarded and make headlines.
If the department wants video/audio then fine. But I would rather not have another person with a video camera to look out for when I am already in a bad area trying to catch bad folks.
Should we strap video cameras on all of our soldiers too?
I have asked people to end a cell phone call or not use the phone while on a traffic stop and when I am speaking to them generally because it is rude and I would not want someone to get the idea to call for back up to come try and woop my ass.
In my opinion this would definitely be an officer safety issue and I think the officer should have discretion over whether a phone call should be made and to whom during a stop.
The thing is,some people are video taping police because they want them to react negatively and they inherently don't like police. A majority of them aren't video taping to make us look like heroes. They are baiting that jackass cop who is gonna go retarded and make headlines.
If an Officer can't control their emotions when a camera is around then how do they do it when there's not one? And if he's a jackass cop who's gonna go retard in front of a camera than he should be fired, simple.
Should we strap video cameras on all of our soldiers too?
Apples and oranges.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 12:12
Irish- "If an Officer can't control their emotions when a camera is around then how do they do it when there's not one? And if he's a jackass cop who's gonna go retard in front of a camera than he should be fired, simple."
I cant say you are wrong, because you aren't. I just think it is unfortunate that we have a society that is becoming more and more anti LEO. It sucks that it has come to this because of the few bad ones.
As far as the soldiers go, I am pro military and i love this country and our troops. God Bless Them.
But to try and bring it into perspective, we have allegations of misconduct in our military just as we do in LE. That is the only correlation i was trying to make. Albeit not nearly as much as far as i know, but it still happens.
I wish there were less media cameras in war zones. I dont want to put cameras on our soldier either. It was only to try and bring it in to perspective if only a little bit. Cops and Soldiers deal with bad people who want to do bad things to good people. Bad, violent people should be met with force.
Good people should be treated as such. They dont deserve to be treated like some of those asshole cops treat them.
Absolutely. Having video running at a traffic stop is smart insurance. Imagine how many frivolous lawsuits PD's have avoided just by having a camera running.
Not to mention a fabulous source of entertainment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGaWDL7ofLQ
We're all on camera all the time in public, everyone is being filmed by everyone else no matter what your chosen career. Just go to youtube for proof of it. At least if somebody has a camera in your face you're aware you're being filmed.
We live in strange times.
I cant say you are wrong, because you aren't. I just think it is unfortunate that we have a society that is becoming more and more anti LEO. It sucks that it has come to this because of the few bad ones.
First thing I'll say is I believe that the vast majority of police are good guys and I feel the same way about most citizens. You have an equal percentage of bad guys amongst Joe Citizen, LEOs, military, etc. We're all human and everyone is capable of making mistakes but the difference being is that non-LEOs are not granted the same powers or responsibilities as LEOs and along with that power comes a great responsibility. When it is abused people want accountability and they demand it due to the fact that they're forced to pay for those services through taxation.
I also understand what you're saying and sympathize with your position. However, I think it is important to define "anti-LEO" versus being critical of the police's actions. Admittedly I am critical of police actions when it involves deprivation of a citizen's rights, but I also try to use sound logic when doing so and don't just bash the officer involved. I also understand that there is typically more involved with any situation than is presented in the media when discussing current cases.
I believe that people are often critical of the police due to the fact that more and more corruption has been exposed due to video and modern internet reporting. You often have police that are reinstated after being fired through union rep arbitration when they have no business wearing a badge again. There are also many occasions where an officer is fired from one department only to be picked up by a neighboring town and goes on to abuse citizen's rights in a different jurisdiction. This happens all the time and is a well known fact and it doesn't sit well with citizens who pay attention to what's happening inside their police forces. It often appears that there is either no accountability or it's severely lacking when officers are involved in criminal activity.
I don't know if everything stems from the degradation of society or looser hiring standards or it may just be that everything's in the news now. Within the past month there have been at least 30 different incidents in the news involving officers and pedophilia or child pornography around the country and that's only taking a quick glance. The amount of crime that LEOs are involved with is pretty staggering and the punishment is typically far less than what would be handed down to the average citizen for the same type of crime. The ATF's Fast & Furious is a great example.
We are a nation that was founded on distrust of government and authority figures and the reasons are self evident. Anyone who has been granted the power of control over citizens should be held to a higher standard and that may include them being put under the microscope at times. Just because people are critical of one officer's actions does not make them anti-cop in any sense of the word.
I'll be happy to provide links and references to everything I've mentioned thus far if you'd like. I'm tired of typing and I'm sure you're tired of reading so without beating the horse too much I'll stop here. Again, I firmly believe most cops are good guys. But, we must also strive to cull the bad from the herd. Stay safe.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 14:22
Law Enforcement Officers are absolutely public servants of a special kind.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
I just hope LEO's never become worse than politicians. haha
I think the degradation of law enforcement officers stems from low standards and low pay. There is no incentive for over qualified persons to take the job other than because they have a passion for it or their significant other makes good money. So because of that they take less educated people, the evaluations we go through are garbage also. My psych eval was a computer test that proved nothing and the conversation i had with the doc was how i thought the SEC was the strongest conference in college football. He could probably care less if i was crazy or not.
If i would have said i want to reduce crime by getting rid of all criminals personally then he would have taken notice. Anything short of that i dont think he would have cared.
Things have gotten better now than they used to be with the advent of technology and individuals bring all the negative incidents to light. Cleaning up public officials is something that absolutely needs to be done.
The good guys do really great work. We are able to do what we do all w/in the scope of the legal system. I am not going to say that bending the law doesnt occur, because it does. But when guys start blatantly breaking it, thats when they start taking it into their own hands.
I am with yall, i love when a bad cop gets put in jail probably more than a bad civilian. Once less asshole wearing the same uniform as me smearing the public image i try to make better.
I do not think anything said here is anti-cop.
The truth hurts but it is the truth none the less. I have told people in the past that if they had something happen to them, report it. I am not going to tell someone that feels violated that everything will be ok and try to justify another officers cover up. That is not my job. I want good people on my side. SHIT, yall pay our salaries!
You have an equal percentage of bad guys amongst Joe Citizen, LEOs, military, etc.
I don't think THATS true. But there are bad ones out there nonethless. IMO most of the bad apples (by far not ALL) come from areas where they are getting under paid.
But of course we are all overpaid fat cats who retire with a pretty pension right??
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 15:25
But of course we are all overpaid fat cats who retire with a pretty pension right??
Was that said somewhere in this thread, are you looking for an online tiff, or am I just missing something else here?
Just wondering who it would smoke out...
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 15:28
Just wondering who it would smoke out...
That's pretty juvenile.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 15:30
I thought what tgace said was a sarcastic joke.
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 15:31
That's not so according to him.
I thought what tgace said was a sarcastic joke.
It was....so was my second comment. ;)
But I do believe that someone who believes what I said is so has just arrived.
I don't think THATS true. But there are bad ones out there nonethless. IMO most of the bad apples (by far not ALL) come from areas where they are getting under paid.
In case you're wondering the below is quoted from here: http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?p=4053
When current data is filtered to examine only incidents that can be classified as violent crimes as specified per the US FBI/DOJ Uniform Crime Reporting (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr) standards and then compared with the 2009 FBI/DOJ UCR Crime in the United States (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/index.html) report as a per capita general population and per capita law enforcement basis the results indicate that overall violent crime rates are not too divergent between the two population groups with a difference of only 20.1 per 100k point between the two. However, there appear to be some more significant differences at a more granular level with robbery rates for police far below those reported for the general population but sexual assault rates are significantly higher for police when compared to the general population.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2132/figure10o.png
While the rate of police officers officially charged with murder is only 1.06% higher than the current general population murder rate, if excessive force complaints involving fatalities were prosecuted as murder the murder rate for law enforcement officers would exceed the general population murder rate by 472%.
But of course we are all overpaid fat cats who retire with a pretty pension right??
Nobody said that but if you'd like I'll bring up lots of supporting data to show plenty of officers making over $100k in Las Vegas which far exceeds the average working wage. I use that city as an example due to my intimate knowledge of how much my local officers are getting paid to do a sometimes very difficult job.
I don't think THATS true. But there are bad ones out there nonethless. IMO most of the bad apples (by far not ALL) come from areas where they are getting under paid.
If your moral compass is tied that closely to your checking account you are in the wrong line of work.
The last chart I would trust is some bullshit made on an anti-goverment/LE site. That chart wasn't even made by rob_s....that's how you know its ****ed up.
Just wondering who it would smoke out...
Thus far this thread has been a very civil, adult conversation about LEOs, filming and policing in general. Let's try to keep it that way. ;)
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 15:48
But I do believe that someone who believes what I said is so has just arrived.
Congrats, maybe you've found the argument you were looking and therefore ****ed up this thread for the rest of us.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 15:48
Irish those reports are so disheartening.
Out of my academy class I think it was 6 of 30 were either fired/arrested/ or resigned in lieu of being fired. That's just my class.
We had a few deputies arrayed for narcotics, extortion, agg. Rape, some with multiple counts, and other malfeasance. Good thing we had NOPD right next door to over shadow all of our ****in rejects. Lol
Ok it's not funny, quite sad actually.
Irish those reports are so disheartening.
I agree but I also think it's very valuable information. Obviously there is something very wrong within the ranks of some of our law enforcement agencies when looking at these numbers. However, this also helps provide valuable information on where things are going wrong. Without information, positive or negative, there can't be reflection, or a serious self-evaluation, on behalf of our LEO agencies or from the civilian sector who not only pays for their services but also counts on police officers to do their jobs diligently and in a honest, forthright fashion.
Due to our PM conversation you and I have a great understanding on my position, but to reiterate, I am not trying to lump all police into one category and I'm not trying to be "anti-cop". Facts are facts and if we can't discuss what's going on openly and honestly without every officer jumping to the defense of the obviously blatantly guilty then we're doing a disservice to ourselves, society and the vast majority of officers who are good people and good officers.
tgace - If I can provide any other information that will help you concerning anything I alluded to in my previous post please feel free to ask.
The last chart I would trust is some bullshit made on an anti-goverment/LE site. That chart wasn't even made by rob_s....that's how you know its ****ed up.
Are you saying the information provided isn't factual? As far as I know the information provided in that chart comes directly from the 2 FBI reports that I linked to in my post. The site, www.injusticeeverywhere.com, is not anti-government or anti-LEO it's simply providing a resource to compile information on illegal police activities. I consider it to be a very valuable resource when discussions like this are brought to the table.
Providing a resource with an agenda.
Providing a resource with an agenda.
Typical response. What agenda? The facts you don't want brought out into the light of day exposing criminals within your ranks?
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 16:50
No, Irish i agree with. I mean 20% of my class were criminals. That is awful!
If you knew more about UCR data and how it's gathered you wouldn't be so quick to post a chart citing that data, of which you have little understanding, as fact. You have no knowledge of how the information was complied, both by the FBI and whoever made the chart, but accept it as truth none the less. I don't know what to tell you.
The agenda being pushed on that site is obvious even from their domain name, not to mention the other content.
I don't know what ****ed up academy you went to, but that department has some serious gaps in their hiring practice. Which many do now days. Many departments hire trying to fill demographics instead of by virtue. This is no different than any other industry, but has bigger consequences here.
I'm not living in some kind of bubble, or worried about exposing people "in my ranks".
I also accept that LE is a human institution, as such it's comprised of people. It will never be perfect. There will always be bad apples. We try to weed them out.
You can get assholes making French fries. You can get assholes being police officers. The latter carries a heavier significance, and makes better headlines.
karmapolice
09-01-11, 17:12
I am certain that video has also saved officers from false accusations. I don't see how video could not help everyone all around involved with LEOs.
You just have to be careful because it doesn't show all the angles sometimes and is a fixed point of view and what was a good shoot etc from one point of view of say the camera can look bad but overall I agree.
for example:
http://blutube.policeone.com/videos/935629755001-officerinvolved-shooting-part-1/
http://blutube.policeone.com/videos/935629756001-officerinvolved-shooting-part-2/
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 17:18
Bp7178, I worked the greater new Orleans area. Need I say more. The dept. Did a good job of handling the bad LEO's and the sheriff had zero tolerance. IAD entertained every complaint too no matter how ridiculous.
Some folks tried to pin a wrOngful arrest case on me and brutality complaint and wanted me charged criminally. I prevailed cuz it was bullshit. Trying to bring me down for doing my job. Race was brought up too, very sad what people are willing to do when they a wrong and see a potential civil rights fiasco and dollars.
The administration wasnt perfect but they did a good job of getting rid of a lot of bad apples.
Belmont31R
09-01-11, 17:23
If you knew more about UCR data and how it's gathered you wouldn't be so quick to post a chart citing that data, of which you have little understanding, as fact. You have no knowledge of how the information was complied, both by the FBI and whoever made the chart, but accept it as truth none the less. I don't know what to tell you.
The agenda being pushed on that site is obvious even from their domain name, not to mention the other content.
I don't know what ****ed up academy you went to, but that department has some serious gaps in their hiring practice. Which many do now days. Many departments hire trying to fill demographics instead of by virtue. This is no different than any other industry, but has bigger consequences here.
I'm not living in some kind of bubble, or worried about exposing people "in my ranks".
I also accept that LE is a human institution, as such it's comprised of people. It will never be perfect. There will always be bad apples. We try to weed them out.
You can get assholes making French fries. You can get assholes being police officers. The latter carries a heavier significance, and makes better headlines.
Do you have an alternative source of information that you believe or can show to be true?
There were plenty of **** ups in the military. Like you said these organizations are pulled from the general population, and theres no test that can weed out people so no members of that organization commit crimes. You have pastors who touch kids, cops that are sexual predators, military who murder people on the battlefield, and what separates the good from the bad is a willingness to see those types gone. Not defending them. Not explaining away their behavior. Not shielding them from justice. I had a team chief get popped for cocaine, lots of DUI's, pot, theft, sex with underage girls, murder...you name it. The military also has a problem with gang members joining to either hide out for a bit or to get training in weapons & tactics.
Like Irish I am not anti-LEO. I am just pro rights, liberty, and justice. Im not anti-government I just want a government that isn't big brother, over tax us, holds itself accountable and doesn't try to run people's lives. I don't consider myself anti-government or anti-LEO but if enjoyment of rights and liberty makes me so then I really don't have a problem getting labeled that by others.
If you knew more about UCR data and how it's gathered you wouldn't be so quick to post a chart citing that data, of which you have little understanding, as fact.
Feel free to educate me since, as you put it, I have little understanding of the subject matter.
The agenda being pushed on that site is obvious even from their domain name, not to mention the other content.
There are actually several positive LEO encounters and incidents that are posted on that site as well. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You can get assholes making French fries. You can get assholes being police officers. The latter carries a heavier significance, and makes better headlines.
I'm not sure how you can make a logical comparison between the two.
ADDED: Also, refute the information that's provided on the site and not their "agenda" as you put it. The admin on that site posts links to news stories around the USA and Canada that he compiles when police are involved in illegal activity. If their "agenda" is to provide information then I welcome it as the only thing his "agenda" is providing is valuable information.
UCR doesn't track by occupation. Reporting varies across jurisdictions, and the data is not an indication of criminal conviction. Even on the UCR website readers are cautioned from drawing conclusions from outside the intended scope of the report. The website you linked said their data came from another website from "credible media reports". I bet it did.
Until an unbiased group starts tracking that type of data, you have nothing to put in a chart.
If you think LE is messed up, look into reports concerning misconduct on the part of doctors and nurses. There was some type of trade publication I was reading while at a hospit that listed that stuff. I want to say any time a license to practice issue comes up, there has to be some type of public notification. Hence listing it in the back of the trade publication. It shows you these types of things aren't confined to one profession.
It would be intresting to see crime data tracked by proffession or trade, but I'm not aware of anywhere it is, and it would be extremely difficult to do accurately.
People have this misconception that somehow police are better than everyone, or should be. It makes headlines when they aren't. It also ignores the simple fact that it's just people doing a job. Some people are good, others aren't. You aren't given virtue by the shirt you wear to work.
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 17:58
People have this misconception that somehow police are better than everyone, or should be. It makes headlines when they aren't. It also ignores the simple fact that it's just people doing a job. Some people are good, others aren't. You aren't given virtue by the shirt you wear to work.
I absolutely believe that when you are empowered by the state to make life and death decisions along potentially life ruining financial/drug prosecution that you should be held to a very high standard. I think prosecutors especially, are run amok.
That's pretty juvenile.
Dude, did you just get trolled by a cop? :laugh:
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 20:00
Police Officers arent just regular people. We have the power to take away someones freedom. That is a huge responsibility.
Police should be held to a higher standard. The day all people dont hold law enforcement officers to a higher standard is the day it gets real ****ing bad.
CarlosDJackal
09-01-11, 20:43
It's Illinois after all. They are trying to roll this situation into some bogus eavsdropping or wiretapping law.
So much for the First Amendment existing in that state. Of course most of the residents could care less because it "doesn't affect them". :rolleyes:
Littlelebowski
09-01-11, 20:45
Police Officers arent just regular people. We have the power to take away someones freedom. That is a huge responsibility.
Police should be held to a higher standard. The day all people dont hold law enforcement officers to a higher standard is the day it gets real ****ing bad.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Maybe I owe you dinner at the AQ :D
It's Illinois after all. They are trying to roll this situation into some bogus eavsdropping or wiretapping law.
So much for the First Amendment existing in that state. Of course most of the residents could care less because it "doesn't affect them". :rolleyes:
It's happening in several other states and this is far from an isolated incident.
Police Officers arent just regular people. We have the power to take away someones freedom. That is a huge responsibility.
Police should be held to a higher standard. The day all people dont hold law enforcement officers to a higher standard is the day it gets real ****ing bad.
Well said 4X4.
4x4twenty6
09-01-11, 22:16
Thanks guys, the truth shall be told. Far too many informed people on here to try and bullshit and think you are gonna get away with it. I'm glad we are able to keep it honest and civil. No matter how much the truth sucks.
Police Officers arent just regular people. We have the power to take away someones freedom. That is a huge responsibility.
Police should be held to a higher standard. The day all people dont hold law enforcement officers to a higher standard is the day it gets real ****ing bad.
I have said this a million times.....
If the average Joe gets arrested for DUI it goes on the 5th page of the local section in the Police Blotter. If a police officer gets arrested for a DUI, it's front page news.....As it should be!
I was in the number one rated police academy in PA. There were 33 cadets in my class. One of the biggest classes in the history of the academy. One officer was arrested for hiring a prostitute (on duty), one accidentally shot a fellow officer cleaning his weapon and another for something that I can not recall at this moment. So the stats that were listed above are correct. Police are held to a higher standard but we are all human. We are tasked with making decisions in a fraction of a second and if it is a bad decision we are scrutinized for it. Training helps us make the split second decisions the right ones. If I were arrested or recorded doing something stupid then it was no one's fault but my own. This is what I think about when I'm out there and the simple fact that I am supposed to act to a higher standard is always in the back of my mind.
As for the recording aspect, PA has very strict wire tap laws when it comes to AUDIO. When on a traffic stop, I must advise that the subject is being video recorded and ASK if it is ok that they be AUDIO recorded. If they say no, I must shut the mic off. If they say no and start recording me with their phone, I will pleasantly ask them to stop recording audio.
I also do not allow any cell phone use by any occupant of a vehicle while on a vehicle stop. From personal experience. We had a car stopped and took a gun off the passenger. As we were hooking the passenger up, the other passenger text messaged his buddies and they came four deep armed with guns and a stolen car. I mean, who comes to back up their fellow gang members with a stolen car? :dirol:
LE is made of people, people are people. Some LEO are dicks some are people who get my respect.
Waitresses are people, people are people. Some waitresses are bitches some are people who get my respect.
What are we arguing here? That people vary? I agree with that 100%
4x4twenty6
09-02-11, 09:40
Mr smiles:
No doubt we are people. That is not the argument.
I was just trying to say that the police are tasked w/ a unique job and while in uniform; we are more than just a civilian because of what we are qualified to do and that is enforce the law.
Not everyone can be the police. Doing the job does change you a little bit. Not neceassarily for the worse but things just appear differently. One person seeing a cops attitude and referring to him as a dick is not a completely fair assessment. A cop adressess a situation based on training and experience and we have a lot of experiences that are negative. We constantly have to be an alert for people who want to harm us.
I am not condoning the rogue cop behavior. But, to try and monday morning quarterback an incident isnt always entirely fair.
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 11:01
I will chime in. Having been a LEO for a number of years in varying capacity and duties. I will say I am held to a different standard, I also make mistakes and will admit them freely. However, I dare say to the general public,"Hate me,don't hate me, I am making damn sure I will be going home tonight". So whether you like cops or hate us. It is what it is and **** all that try to make my kids fatherless.
regarding statistics, also take into consideration the "officer is accused of.." factor. We get "accused" of a LOT of stuff we didn't do by people. Even by people you wouldn't expect to lie. Sometimes I don't know if it's that people are outright liars or if under the stress of a police encounter they actually believe the stuff they say.
regarding statistics, also take into consideration the "officer is accused of.." factor. We get "accused" of a LOT of stuff we didn't do by people.
This shoe gets worn on both feet and plenty of people have been exonerated due to video evidence that contradicts "official reports".
I apologize if I've encouraged this thread to become any sort of us VS them type of thing, it really wasn't my intention. Let's try to steer this ship back on course. Have a good one.
CarlosDJackal
09-02-11, 11:34
...The agenda being pushed on that site is obvious even from their domain name, not to mention the other content...
Maybe so, but that has no relevance to the facts of the case or the laws in question. In our democracy we should have the protected right to record what happens in public. This goes for everyone: LEOs, non-LEOs, the press, etc.
If it's okay to install CCTV for crime prevention and prosecution, why is not okay for anyone to walk around with a video camera AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT PHYSICALLY INTERFERE WITH ANY ACTIVE INVESTIGATION and their intention is not to dig up dirt. What is wrong with recording something for CYA purposes?
One of the most important concept in Law Enforcement is "INTENT". As long as the intention of the person recording the situation is not to facilitate a crime (ie: make the recording publicly to endanger those involved) or modify and post the videos online for profit; it should not be an issue.
This is especially so if the person doing the videotaping is the actual subject who, right or wrong and not necessarily of their own choice, is an actor in the case and any pending investigation. Why can't everyone else have their own "dash cams" that can be used to either make or break their own case? Video does not lie as long as it is not taken out of context.
Since they were implemented, dash cams and videos have been more of a God send to LEOs than anything else. I personally know of dozens of Officers whose freedom and continued employment was maintained thanks to the objective and unblinking eye of a video camera.
...You can get assholes making French fries. You can get assholes being police officers. The latter carries a heavier significance, and makes better headlines.
While I do not feel that painting all LEOs in the same light as that moron from Canton, OH; I have always found that the comparison between a Fry Cook and an LEO is asinine regardless of which side you are on. While Fry Cooks do not face the same dangers or have the same responsibilities as LEOs; they also do not have the same authority as given to them by the society they serve.
In the scheme of things, is what the subject of this story did really worth prosecuting? Especially prosecution as a felon with the possibility of 75-years of prison? Or should the DA and those involved be better off pursuing that drug dealer, rapist, or murderer instead of cutting them a plea bargain?
I bet if we were to dig into the cases the Prosecutor have handled in the last case; I bet you we can find at least one case that is worthy of his efforts but did not pursue because he didn't feel like it was worth it (except to the victims). JM2CW.
4x4twenty6
09-02-11, 11:45
Irish, i dont think it has come to an us vs them type thing.
I like being able to explain the side of police officers that dont always get to be seen in a somewhat controlled and non emotional manner.
jklaughrey, i agree with you. If people dont like the police then that is fine. Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
Media blows it out of proportion a lot and sensationalizes ALLEGED wrongdoing far too often.
We can go through all professions or groups of people and pick out the stereotypical things we dont like about them, but blanket statements are plain ole ignorant.
For Instance:
-All whites are racist
-All blacks are stupid
-All asians are good at math
-All cops are racist, stupid and criminals
-All lawyers are crooks
-All Politicians are crooked-this may be true. haha
-All firefighters want to be police-sorry firefighters i had to, just a joke.
This shoe gets worn on both feet and plenty of people have been exonerated due to video evidence that contradicts "official reports".
I apologize if I've encouraged this thread to become any sort of us VS them type of thing, it really wasn't my intention. Let's try to steer this ship back on course. Have a good one.
Well..I wasn't trying to say "boo hoo we get falsely accused". I was trying to point out that statistics that state 1 in every X number of cops will be accused of..don't take into account the fact that getting accused falsely is part of the job.
While its anecdotal, I would still be willing to bet cash money that EVERY cop has been accused of something he/she didn't do (or had something he did do legally exaggerated into something). While every cop has NOT falsely charged a "citizen". Just something to keep in mind when looking at that sort of stat.
I recall responding to a call of "man trying to break into GF house..claims he has a gun" call in the middle of the night. I did a proper "stealth approach" from a few doors away. I could hear banging (on the door..not shots) and screaming and then saw a shadow jump a fence into the yard I was approaching. I think he heard my back-up coming. I drew down on the guy and proned him out while my officers (I was shift Lt at the time) cuffed him up.
Back at HQ the guy demands to see a supervisor. This same guy tells me to my face that the "guy in the white shirt" pointed a gun at him..kicked him in the head, kicked him in the chest, stepped on his balls..etc. and he wanted to file a complaint.
The complaint was unfounded (naturally) but I wish I had video of the event. We have charged some people with falsely reporting for this sort of crap when they sign formal statements..then we show them the video.
While I do not feel that painting all LEOs in the same light as that moron from Canton, OH; I have always found that the comparison between a Fry Cook and an LEO is asinine regardless of which side you are on. While Fry Cooks do not face the same dangers or have the same responsibilities as LEOs; they also do not have the same authority as given to them by the society they serve.
That completley misses my point.
The point was, its a job. Its a job done by people.
Some people are assholes, some aren't. They have no busisness is LE, or any people based job, but it happens.
This was in no way a statement about the responsibilities of a LEO.
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 14:24
-All cops are racist, stupid and criminals
-All Politicians are crooked-this may be true. haha joke.
I just have one question. I am taking early retirement from the SO and running for city council and then hopefully County Commissioner. Since I have to "retire" (will be reserve status) after I am an elected official. Will I be a crook, or does my previous job description default in regards to how I should be perceived?
Cheers!:D
I am taking early retirement from the SO and running for city council and then hopefully County Commissioner.
Now I definitely know where I'll be moving! Best of luck!!!
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 14:38
Now I definitely know where I'll be moving! Best of luck!!!
Cool.
GermanSynergy
09-02-11, 14:57
-All cops are racist, stupid and criminals
-All Politicians are crooked-this may be true. haha joke.
I just have one question. I am taking early retirement from the SO and running for city council and then hopefully County Commissioner. Since I have to "retire" (will be reserve status) after I am an elected official. Will I be a crook, or does my previous job description default in regards to how I should be perceived?
Cheers!:D
David Aceveda?
I'm joking of course. :sarcastic:
Best of luck to you in your future endeavors. :cool:
4x4twenty6
09-02-11, 14:59
@jklaughery, lol but cops will never be as bad as politicians.
best of luck to you in your retirement. my dad hasnt been happier since he retired.
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 15:05
Thanks, Irish, 4X4 and GS. I decided instead of bitching about the clowns running shit around here, I would either fish or cut bait.I chose to fish. I am not exactly a well rounded person, so I am abrasive and ignorant of many things. But I sure know how to kiss hands and shake babies:jester:.
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