View Full Version : Why I will never use products from Otis ever again.
I'm in a really terrible mood right now. A while ago I bought an Otis cleaning kit AR15/M16 cleaning kit along with Otis all caliber cotton patches to supplement my boresnake. That was my first mistake in even considering using this product.
My plan was to use it to clean my 20" upper and a few other items, seeing as the patches are rated as "all caliber." If you're not aware of how it works, it's a 3" patch with various holes in it that is meant to cover a multitude of calibers for cleaning with one patch. Seems like a nifty idea that will work well with cleaning across various guns, right? Well, wrong in my case apparently.
I carefully followed the directions on the back of the box on where to pinch the patch, I pinched it where it said for .22cal and pulled it through their jag and secured it to their flexible cleaning rod, wetted down my patch, and started to pull it through. A little tighter than normal, but not excessively tight by any means. About halfway down the barrel the tension on the wire rod gives and comes straight out of my muzzle. Patch stuck in the barrel.
First I tried to push it out with solid brass cleaning rod sections, in the same direction it was going to keep it from bunching up. Wouldn't budge an inch. I tried some more and before long the cleaning rod sections bent and I'm starting to worry that I probably dinged my barrel and possibly ruined it trying to get this patch out.
I called their phone numbers today to no avail, not a single answer any of the times I called.
Now I'm sitting here with bent cleaning rods, a possibly dinged up and ruined barrel that's clogged with a cleaning patch, and absolutely no customer service.
Very last time I will ever even look at Otis for anything cleaning related. I'll keep trying their numbers and hopefully get some customer service for their product, and hopefully I can figure this out, but I have a feeling I might have ruined a perfectly good new barrel. Last time I ever use any "all caliber" patches, or anything Otis for that matter.
In the mean time, does anyone have any advice or recommendations on how to get this cotton patch out? Keep in mind I'm out of cleaning rods, seeing as they broke trying to push this thing out.
sir_n0thing
08-31-11, 22:07
Before you get too far, sounds like you need a quality cleaning rod. "Brass sections" usually means "cheap cleaning rod". Money on a quality one piece rod is well spent.
Sucks you're stuck though! I don't know anything about Otis customer service.
Good luck!
Sent via Tapatalk ~Android~
First I tried to push it out with solid brass cleaning rod sections...
I tried some more and before long the cleaning rod sections bent and I'm starting to worry that I probably dinged my barrel and possibly ruined it trying to get this patch out...
I have a feeling I might have ruined a perfectly good new barrel...
I'm out of cleaning rods, seeing as they broke trying to push this thing out.
First, while you're still excited, kick yourself in the head for not already owning a decent one-piece nylon-coated cleaning rod — I like Deweys, but their competitors look fine, too. Sectional rods are crap.
Second, take a deep breath and relax. You're not going to damage — much less ruin — a hardened steel rifle barrel with a brass rod or with a cotton patch.
Third, be glad that you didn't reach anybody at Otis, because they probably would have just laughed at you.
Fourth, return to step one, above, and push the patch out of the barrel.
Get an appropriately sized wooden dowel from Home Depot and a rubber mallet. Hammer it out. Good luck.
^^^^ addition to above: This should go without saying but if the dowel starts to splinter it's obviously time to stop. A slightly more expensive option is a brass rod if this happens with the wooden dowel. The brass rod should be almost as wide as the bore so it doesn't bend so much.
Paladin801
08-31-11, 22:25
+1 What ironman said. I did the basically the same thing on my first use of the Otis cleaning system. I soaked the stuck patch with whatever lube for a couple of days then used a solid one piece to get it out. While I was waiting for the patch to soak good, I really read the instructions. Felt like a dumb a$$.
Get an appropriately sized wooden dowel from Home Depot and a rubber mallet. Hammer it out.
You might also drown it with CLP or something else slick, first.
User error
I'll be the first to admit I've made mistakes, but considering I've been using nothing but the products manufactured by this company to do this, and followed their instructions exactly as they say on their packaging, I can't at all see where you would consider this to be user error. :rolleyes:
First, while you're still excited, kick yourself in the head for not already owning a decent one-piece nylon-coated cleaning rod — I like Deweys, but their competitors look fine, too. Sectional rods are crap.
Second, take a deep breath and relax. You're not going to damage — much less ruin — a hardened steel rifle barrel with a brass rod or with a cotton patch.
Third, be glad that you didn't reach anybody at Otis, because they probably would have just laughed at you.
Fourth, return to step one, above, and push the patch out of the barrel.
Agreed and done. I'll be ordering a nice rod like a Dewey and canning this junk from Otis ASAP. Hopefully I can get this patch out, and while I agree that it's hard to ruin a barrel, I know the rod dinged inside pretty hard before it broke, it just worries me that it might have damaged or dinged the rifling.
I'll be ordering a nice rod like a Dewey...
They're really great. Given how long I'm planning to keep my guns, and how often I'm going to be cleaning them, having good equipment to do so is well worth it.
At the same time, I use BoreSnakes, too, and I think they're great.
... It just worries me that it might have damaged or dinged the rifling.
Don't let it worry you.
Even if you could damage or ding the rifling (highly unlikely), you would have done it in the middle of the barrel, where it doesn't really matter.
If you had banged up up the leade or the crown, then that might be a real problem.
Paladin801
08-31-11, 22:42
Meplat, I'm not laughing at you at all. I went bezeek when it happened to me. I feel your pain. Be sure and go from the breech to the end when dislodging the patch. Not being a smart ass, google your problem. You're not the first. Hang in there, it'll be ok.
Not that you would have known but Otis makes small caliber patches in addition to their regular 3" sized ones. I know the "all caliber" is a bit of an misnomer when there are two different types of "all caliber" patches but the 3" one is for anything that begins with .3x up to 12GA and the smaller ones are for .17 to the .2x range.
Your barrel will be fine, good luck getting it out. You've stated your piece, but I wouldn't give up on the system just yet...I've made the same mistake you made to a 5.45 rifle but since learning to use and appreciate the system I haven't gone back. I have both patch sizes (actually I've been making my own Otis patches) and I use the appropriate ones for everything from 22LR to 12GA.
Alright, after a bit of time and swearing, I got the patch out.
Bad news is, I can see dark black places in the barrel, and when pulling a normal sized .22 patch through, it reaches a section where it feels like it's all jagged or loose or something.
Will be trying to take some pictures and have them up in a moment, but I'm thinking the barrel is ruined... :(
Don't assume its ruined until you shoot it.
Ive used those patches before, They really are a little tight. I dont follow the directions, I make a nice 360* patch and it works fine, a little tight but I like it like that:D
Pick up some new patches at walmart, the Winchester bag, they work good.
Get a good nylon coated pull rod they work good.
I would go with the Dowel idea too, youre not gonna hurt the barrel so dont be afraid of it
Meplat,
Please retire the drama queen stuff. Unless your barrel is made from plastic your barrel is probably fine. Go shoot the thing and then get back to us.
Alright, after a bit of time and swearing, I got the patch out.
Bad news is, I can see dark black places in the barrel, and when pulling a normal sized .22 patch through, it reaches a section where it feels like it's all jagged or loose or something.
Will be trying to take some pictures and have them up in a moment, but I'm thinking the barrel is ruined... :(
I've used the Otis system on my AR15s fine with both the regular size patch and the smaller .22 cal specific patch. The smaller the caliber the further to the edge you want to have the slotted tip. Getting stuck in a .223 barrel with the larger patch is not a design flaw. It happens if the patch is not attached correctly, but that is not inherent to the design.
I also use cleaning rod and Bore Snakes. I got the Otis as a travel kit before I found the Bore Snake. I wanted something to clean my M1 Garand and other closed receiver guns from the breech end first. When I got my PTR91 I bought a German surplus cleaning kit and it is basically an old fashioned version of the Otis, using cord instead of cable. The Otis kit is great for handling multiple calibers in a very compact case. But most of the time now I use the Bore Snake for general cleaning between sessions and the coated rod for more thorough scrubbing periodically, especially when there is any lead or copper fouling the B-S does not remove.
Ive used those patches before, They really are a little tight. I dont follow the directions, I make a nice 360* patch and it works fine, a little tight but I like it like that:D
Pick up some new patches at walmart, the Winchester bag, they work good.
Get a good nylon coated pull rod they work good.
I would go with the Dowel idea too, youre not gonna hurt the barrel so dont be afraid of it
I'm still going to keep the patches of course, I'll just trim them down to avoid this problem in the future. I'll definitely be picking up a Dewey rod and parts to avoid running into this problem again, though, and I'm still displeased with the company and won't be using their products again.
I understand the instructions on their patches, and they were followed exactly as illustrated for .22cal and I wound up with this mess.
Meplat,
Please retire the drama queen stuff. Unless your barrel is made from plastic your barrel is probably fine. Go shoot the thing and then get back to us.
I apologize for being upset, I'm just rather displeased at the thought of ruining a new upper and barrel while trying to literally hammer a cleaning rod through it to get the patch out. That's all, I'm sure you and others can relate to the feeling of accidentally ruining something and the frustration. Now that it's out, I ran a bunch of normal solvent soaked patches through it, dried it, and everything appears to be alright, although the area where the patch was stuck seems to have a slightly grainy texture to it. Not sure if this is left over cotton or not, but it probably is.
I'll hit the range tomorrow and put a few hundred through it and see if anything is wrong.
Thread over, I guess.
I'll be the first to admit I've made mistakes, but considering I've been using nothing but the products manufactured by this company to do this, and followed their instructions exactly as they say on their packaging, I can't at all see where you would consider this to be user error. :rolleyes:
Unless the actual pull through snapped, or the brass patch holder failed...it is user error.
I really like the Otis system. Once you get the feel for how much of a pinch you need to put on the patch for a given bore size, its plain sailing. Rather than say you'll never use it again, why not give it another try....but pay attention to how the patch is going to pull through and only take a very small pinch on it to first run a loose patch until you get the hang of it.
steelonsteel
09-01-11, 07:31
dumb question, as I've never used the otis system [though I have looked at them], but couldn't you just substitute the otis patche with a 5.56 specific patch of that is what you know you'll use it for? or does the system force you to use thier patch?
This entire line of discussion is why I use a boresnake and a chamber brush (maybe a few q tips)
no worrying about getting shit stuck, shoving rods down the barrel, and go-go gadget rod extensions (like the hoppes kit comes with)
:suicide2:
Is your bore hard chrome lined or is it lined with peanut brittle? Even if it's not lined how can steel be marred up by a soft metal such as brass, how could you really dig into the inside of the barrel anyway. Think about what goes down your barrel and the pressure, heat and velocity generated how can whatever you think you did be worse than that?
Is your bore hard chrome lined or is it lined with peanut brittle?
:lol: now I'm hungry
Are you sure the rough spot is not your gas port?
This entire line of discussion is why I use a boresnake and a chamber brush (maybe a few q tips)
no worrying about getting shit stuck, shoving rods down the barrel, and go-go gadget rod extensions (like the hoppes kit comes with)
:suicide2:
I've seen a bore snake broken off and stuck in a barrel...
One size fits all never really fits all. I guess "next time" you will use the correct size patch... glad you got it out, I'm sure your barrel is fine. Have you shot it since this issue?
dumb question, as I've never used the otis system [though I have looked at them], but couldn't you just substitute the otis patche with a 5.56 specific patch of that is what you know you'll use it for? or does the system force you to use thier patch?
No, you can use any patch. The Otis system is great if your in the field where you can't access a garage full of cleaning supplies. That said, I bought their full all caliber kit and it generally just sits while I use a one piece rod.
To the OP'er, sorry you had trouble,but hate to see you give up on a good system too soon. The Otis system and all-caliber patches are ALL I've used for the past ten years, with the exception of using solid Dewey rods for scrubbing REALLY filthy M1 barrels.
Skip
I've seen a bore snake broken off and stuck in a barrel...
Interesting, must have been a very old/frayed bore snake
militarymoron
09-01-11, 12:57
i've had a bore snake break - right where the cord pull is attached to the rest of the snake. the back end was still sticking out of the chamber end when the cord broke, so i just pulled it back out. it was a pretty worn one.
Unless the actual pull through snapped, or the brass patch holder failed...it is user error.
I really like the Otis system. Once you get the feel for how much of a pinch you need to put on the patch for a given bore size, its plain sailing. Rather than say you'll never use it again, why not give it another try....but pay attention to how the patch is going to pull through and only take a very small pinch on it to first run a loose patch until you get the hang of it.
This...if you installed the correct patch in the correct manner, then there is (almost) no way for that thing to come off. I say "almost" because I know that you should never say never....I would try to figure it out and continue using it. Its a pretty good system IMO.
I've used this system but never cared for all the small parts to keep up with.
Was the patch wet when inserted?
Heavy Metal
09-01-11, 13:30
Alright, after a bit of time and swearing, I got the patch out.
Bad news is, I can see dark black places in the barrel, and when pulling a normal sized .22 patch through, it reaches a section where it feels like it's all jagged or loose or something.
Will be trying to take some pictures and have them up in a moment, but I'm thinking the barrel is ruined... :(
You sure this isn't the gas port?
Failure2Stop
09-01-11, 14:25
:nono:
I have used Otis kits for years, around lots of other people that use Otis kits, and I have never seen anyone that followed the proper steps have an issue.
It's like being mad at a gas station because you put diesel in your Prius.
Or being mad that you reversed direction with a brass brush and sealed it in the bore.
If you don't know what you are doing, find out before dragging it through your barrel.
Doc Safari
09-01-11, 15:34
I've used the Otis system for years but I just use a regular patch. The Otis patches with little holes in them do tend to tear and snag easily.
theblackknight
09-01-11, 16:01
I was a dumb ass and did this once. I used a super long drill bit, wraped the patch up in it, and pulled it out. I now own a one piece nylon c rod and a bore snake.
I like Otis kits. The fittings are made of brass, so it's harder for smucketelli hell bent on scraping every bit of type III off the rifle to do so. The wanna be dentist tools are nice too.
I keep a can of Kroil oil and wooden dowel on hand for such emergencies, let the kroil soak for a few minutes most thing will pull or push out easily, helps with squibs also if it happens. I have a good set of scissors and trim cloth for 22cal patches never seem to find what I like size wise. Everyone has done it so don't feel bad crap happens just learn from it and be prepared.
I've used Otis products a few times but like my other cleaning gear it does'nt get much use unless it's a precision rifle. I try to remember to clean my standard AR's once every year whether they need it or not. I tend to think of the Otis system as more of an emergency or field system. A one piece rod works better at home.
I was given one of the all-caliber ones and quickly got tired of the gimmicky origami patches. For .30 cal I prefer Dewey coated rods. I also have one in .22 but find the sectional GI rod OK. I just smoothed the joints, wipe it before each pass, and use a breech guide to minimize flexing. Somehow I think the chromed barrel can stand that much abuse.
Booniepacker used to make a little pull- through kit that was less trouble than the Otis. Even more basic is a length of .060 weedwhacker line with a knot in the end. Poke it through a GI patch and it works pretty well to at least get some bore cleaner or oil down the bore.
I used to do some conservation work on museum guns about 130 years old. Now THOSE were neglected!
Meplat, if you makes you feel any better, I've been using the Otis system for years and while I own and still occasionally use my Dewey coated rods (maybe once a year for deep cleaning--not even sure this makes any major difference though), I use the Otis for cleaning all my guns and get great results. And yes I too, when first using Otis, had a couple of patches come off the cable in the barrel. It's a well known issue of "new Otis user-itis," as others have said.
Don't be discouraged by it, Otis is a good system and you have to just learn how to use it effectively, like anything else. In this case, the main cure is to use the small .22 caliber patches, which they made specifically for service use in .223 and 5.56 rifles. You CAN use the 3" patch, but it takes a little experience to get them pinched just right. Using the small ones and pinching them properly is easy and will reduce the risk of them coming off in your barrel. I haven't had one come off in years.
Like someone else said, it's still a good idea to keep a cleaning rod around somewhere, something you can poke down your barrel if something gets stuck. But seriously, don't give up on Otis, I think it's a great system and actually has some advantages vs traditional cleaning rods.
Also as I've noted in other posts about Otis, you are NOT restricted to use just their rather pricey patches. Lately I've been ordering round patches from places like Brownells or Sage, and then just cutting my own slots in them with an Xacto knife.
DirectDrive
09-02-11, 09:35
dumb question, as I've never used the otis system [though I have looked at them], but couldn't you just substitute the otis patche with a 5.56 specific patch of that is what you know you'll use it for? or does the system force you to use thier patch?
I don't use the Otis either but I would definitely use their smaller patch for a .22 bore or make my own as others have stated.
Dragging a 3" patch through a .22 bore is an idea that I would not entertain.
http://youtu.be/S8Ee0rMcQ9k
Baedarlboo
09-02-11, 10:42
I've used the otis kit and haven't had any issues. When I first got it, I did watch the videos they have. I've also been using patches I buy from walmart or gun shows. It works well, small footprint to carry with you, and haven't had any issues with it. I give it a thumbs up!
I have a box full of gun cleaning equipment and supplies. A nice single piece rod has it's place. Boresnakes are great for a quick cleaning. 4 months ago I won the big Otis cleaning system. While I am not totally sold on the CLP they include, I have come to love the system itself. You do need to learn to use the system effectively.
Otis is a small business. A successful privately held, small business. They are furthering the American dream. A couple of months ago I met one of their engineers. I think they have around 200 employees. Personally, I cut companies like Otis lots of slack. Even though you had an issue getting them on the phone, they are customer oriented.
You should note, Otis is a huge supplier to the military and they are in the middle of military trade show season. Give them a little time, they will get back with you.
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