View Full Version : I am ashamed to say that I had road rage today.
ghostman1960
09-01-11, 18:24
The day started in a crappy way because I got knocked on my ass by a bus at work. The driver was going very slow but she was not paying attention and hit me when I was trying to stop traffic so emergency vehicles could get on the dock to tend to a sick passenger. It didn't help when I called her boss and asked him not to send her back anymore and he basically told me to pound sand.
So on my way home from work this kid was zooming down the road and zig zagging in and out of both lanes trying to get ahead of everyone. He cut me off once and I had to take evasive action. It angered me but I decided to try and keep my cool.
Well about two miles later the kid was behind me somehow and and zoomed up to a slower car in the right hand lane and started to tailgate him. Just as I was about to pass he jumped into the left lane that I was in and damn near ran me off the road.
I slammed on my breaks and honked my horn. The kid reacted by slamming on his breaks to brake check me and gave me the finger. Well I don't know what happened to me but I saw white and lost it and started to chase after him. I must have chased him for 10 miles and went way out of my way on my home going after him.
Finally he slowed down and got next to me and yelled out of the window that he was sorry and to please stop chasing him. Finally I realized what a foolish manner in the way I was behaving and pulled off the road to calm down.
I always pride myself in always remaining cool in stressful situations but for some reason today I snapped. I shudder to think what may have happened if I continued to chase after him. I was out for blood.
I just wanted to say that its not worth it. Sorry for ranting about it here.
Finally he slowed down and got next to me and yelled out of the window that he was sorry and to please stop chasing him. Finally I realized what a foolish manner in the way I was behaving and pulled off the road to calm down.
And now said dipshit kid just might (maybe) think twice about the shit he pulls in traffic because his actions have finally had a consequence that concerned him enough to apologize when he clearly didn't give two shits about you originally.
If such actions always had such consequences we'd see a lot less road rage because dipshits might consider other people in traffic in the first place.
So from all the drivers who might not have to put up with such stunts from this kid in the future because "maybe" he won't be so willing to do them....THANK YOU.
I understand your entire point of maintaining self control and acting like a responsible adult, but part of being a responsible adult is also making sure dipshits don't think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want to anyone they choose.
Belmont31R
09-01-11, 19:16
People piss me off nearly every time I drive somewhere.
Too slow, tail gating even though Im already at least doing 5 over with nowhere to go, left lane hoggers when they can get over but don't, people with Obama bumper stickers, and the list goes on.
Im not afraid to call in aggressive drivers, drunks, ect. The cops around here would probably love it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-01-11, 21:21
I honk at bad drivers at the drop of a hat. My wife hates it, but I think if everyone honked at bad drivers, they would eventually start asking people why everyone is always honking at them. That and the horn magically seems to draw stress out of me.
Must have been something in the air the other day. Had two guys where I work slamming stuff around and walked out on their jobs. In this economy? Wow.
On the way home, I had a police officer follow me home. I wasn't speeding, made all the necessary signals, etc. About 6 miles of him following me, I actually started to get a little pissy. When he turned down my street, I got more pissy. When he slowed down when I turned into my driveway, I was damn near furious!!! Turns out, my other cop buddy told him I was selling an FAL. Damn, did I feel a bit sheepish.
The point, some days you get the cat, other days, the cat gets you. Chalk it up to a bad day but remember what it felt like so you can avert it next time.
I would have done the same thing and next time the kid might not act like such a jagoff. Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. No one died, no one got hurt, and the kid now knows that someone might in fact take exception to how he drives. Not a permanent solution, but temporary to start.
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 08:43
I had rage rage last week off duty, right up until I called the plate in to dispatch and passed the kid on the highway proned out by three troopers. It seemed he tried to actually "outrun" them before he finally stopped. Yep, any rage I had left my body.
Reminds me I have to call of those troopers for a beer.
Yesterday my wife headed towards town down our street driving the speed limit. A guy in a pickup pulls right out in front of her and cuts her off, she raised her hand like, wtf? He saw her in the mirror and locked it up and sat for about a half a minute shaking his hand at her. She was pretty shakin by this guy. It seems much more frequent these days for this kind of stuff. I had a similar post here a while back with a couple of kids harassing us on the freeway. I really came unglued during that incident, I certainly understand gman's rant.
In this day and age, you never know who has a gun (leagally or not). Getting into these types of things are not a good idea (especially if you carry).
So just simply smile when they cut you off and call the State Patrol and tell them you have a drunk driver on your hands. Get the license number and be done with it.
Its just not worth dying for so let it be.
C4
I would have done the same thing and next time the kid might not act like such a jagoff. Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. No one died, no one got hurt, and the kid now knows that someone might in fact take exception to how he drives. Not a permanent solution, but temporary to start.
While I can agree that simply standing by and not doing anything may lead the idiots to think they can get away with anything, there's no way to know how far along that path they already are. What if he just locks up the breaks and pulls a gun on you? Over a traffic incident? I used to fly the one finger salute to all the idiot drivers and cuss like a sailor, but now, I fly the finger below the dash and mumble to myself. Still gets the frustration out but doesn't exacerbate the situation into something else.
If they're being that much of a hazard, call 'em in.
pilotguyo540
09-02-11, 09:32
Some jack off went off on me a few weeks back. I was behind him for 15 or so miles. It was a heavy traffic weekend, so I was in no hurry. Not sure what I did, but he flipped me the bird, I returned the favor. He lost it, and grabbed a shovel and was shaking it at me. I was unarmed, so I just swerved my normal, disposable car at his green 65 Chevelle with easy to remember custom plates. He panicked and left the freeway promptly.
As for the original OP, its a good thing you found your breaking point (everyone has one) before someone got hurt. Being remorseful really says a lot about your character. I dont think 2 wrongs make a right, but you may have saved that boys life.
Jay Cunningham
09-02-11, 10:50
In this day and age, you never know who has a gun (leagally or not). Getting into these types of things are not a good idea (especially if you carry).
So just simply smile when they cut you off and call the State Patrol and tell them you have a drunk driver on your hands. Get the license number and be done with it.
Its just not worth dying for so let it be.
C4
I agree with Grant.
What's next, holding someone at gunpoint because they walked on your grass? Oh wait...
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 10:54
C'mon Jay you know we are only allowed to 1 "D-Bag" detainment tag once per month.:D
Wasnt there a thread here a few months ago in AZ, the older gentleman was chasing a kid, pulled behind him at a stop light a produced a gun, kid shot him and it was justified.
Be careful out there guys
Found it http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78961&highlight=Road+Rage
It seems much more frequent these days for this kind of stuff.
Absolutely. Typically on their phone, not paying attention, brake checking others, flipping the bird, screaming at other vehicles, left lane driving all day long... I used to have a bad temper and it definitely takes a lot to keep it in check in traffic, especially in CA.
I'd love to be NHP or CHP for a few days just to ticket all the idiots from CA driving in the left lane impeding traffic between Vegas and L.A. on I-15. I make the drive several times a month and it's beyond frustrating.
I caught part of a report recently that they were considering to post signs for 3 lane highways to teach people the left is for passing, middle is for cruising and right is for slow & access. I just don't know why it's so hard to understand. If I'm in the passing lane and someone approaches on me I always move back to the right lane.
The left lane phone booth at 50 needs to be challenged for sure. I've seen these chicks hold up 20 - 30+ cars going under 55 in a 65. I'm not sure a blonde can drive an suv without a phone stuck to her head. It must be a real challenge.
I'll admit, I have a tendency to drive a little fast til recently.. I had a gentle lesson to remind me that it's not acceptable.. so I'll be using the cruise control a little more often in the slow guys lane...;)
I agree with Grant.
What's next, holding someone at gunpoint because they walked on your grass? Oh wait...
I usually just spray them with the hose.
:D
Wasnt there a thread here a few months ago in AZ, the older gentleman was chasing a kid, pulled behind him at a stop light a produced a gun, kid shot him and it was justified.
Be careful out there guys
Found it http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78961&highlight=Road+Rage
Chasing someone down the make sure they know they are a jackass and chasing someone down and pulling a gun on them and getting shot in return are two very different things.
If you are pulling a gun on somebody because you don't like their driving then YOU are actually the problem. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I need to pull it just because somebody is an asshole. If that were the case I may as well walk around with a slung rifle.
South Florida is jackass central and I haven't pulled a gun on anyone so far this year.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-02-11, 13:22
I thought sunroofs were invented for better one-finger salute visibility. Plus you can point first and then salute. Nothing like the finger flicked in a general direction and no one knows who it is for.
Chasing someone down the make sure they know they are a jackass and chasing someone down and pulling a gun on them and getting shot in return are two very different things.
If you are pulling a gun on somebody because you don't like their driving then YOU are actually the problem. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I need to pull it just because somebody is an asshole. If that were the case I may as well walk around with a slung rifle.
South Florida is jackass central and I haven't pulled a gun on anyone so far this year.
Actually its kind of the same. Its road rage. Chasing someone PERIOD is a good way to get shot.
If someone was chasing me until the point I had to stop, then exited his vehicle and was coming towards me, damn straight I would be ready.
If they are going to the extent of chasing me to begin with then who knows what they would do. I know what I would do it that situation, and I wouldnt take chances
Magic_Salad0892
09-02-11, 13:42
I'd have my hand on the gun, but I would fire until I saw a gun.
A dude getting out of the car though... that's suspicious.
Actually its kind of the same. Its road rage. Chasing someone PERIOD is a good way to get shot.
If someone was chasing me until the point I had to stop, then exited his vehicle and was coming towards me, damn straight I would be ready.
If they are going to the extent of chasing me to begin with then who knows what they would do. I know what I would do it that situation, and I wouldnt take chances
Not to discount what you are saying and with the understanding that Grants reply has some merit, but if "I" am following you then you know damn well what you did because it takes a lot for "ME" to get so fed up with you that I interrupt my "important shit to do" list to make sure you know you are an asshole.
Also if you have done something significant enough to require me to get out of my car and confront you, then you have also done enough for me to involve law enforcement who is going to meet me wherever
"we" finally end up. I don't need to get out of my car to make sure you know you are an asshole.
By the way when I say "you" I don't mean "you" specifically, I'm sure you drive just fine.
And just so people don't think I'm Captain Road Rage, I don't think I have actually followed anyone home or anything like that. I have rolled up next to people at a red light to let them know they are in fact an inconsiderate asshole, but even that takes a lot of really bad driving for me to do it.
Jay Cunningham
09-02-11, 14:23
I usually just spray them with the hose.
:D
No seriously - didn't you hold a guy at gun point a few years back because he walked on your lawn? Didn't you post about it on ARFcom?
My sincere apologies if it wasn't you.
I hear ya man. If it was me in particular then I would totally expect an ass woopin lol.
I said from the beginning, just be CAREFUL. Drive safe. There is no need to "Follow" anyone in the first place.
I know first hand. About 5 years ago I was driving down Fiske Blvd. in Rockledge Fla. I was driving with my best friend (Cowboy, a 57lb Pit) in the left lane. A car just in front to my right, decides he doesnt need to use a signal as he WHIPS over to my lane
I braked hard and my dog lost his balance and his head slammed into the windshield...shattering the middle of the right side. I was LIVID
I yanked the wheel to the right and got up next to what appeared to be a bunch of "Goth" kids with patchy facial hair and black homo accesories around their wrists accompanied by scars from "cutting" themselves most likely due to fathers hating them for how they dress or music whatever.
I get next to him and explain "WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING!" You just cut me off!!" Pull over so I can get your information etc. He tells me to "**** myself" Oh...Okay. Then he turns off into a neighborhood. I follow.
Through this neighborhood all over the place speeding and chasing, I finally caught a break when he was trapped behind a stopped motorhome and he turned around, I didnt have enough room so I put it in reverse an floored it, slammed on the brakes and cut the wheel, I didnt have enough momentum to swing it around so Im stopped sideways in the middle of the street.
I get out of my truck and RUN towards his car, just before I get to his car he tries opening his door and I use ALL of my momentum to slam it closed, I reach in grab his keys and hold them, Oh I forgot, I was on the phone with dispatch the whole time, the lady yelling at me to not follow. I left the phone in my truck when I exited.
The kids were SHITTING in their pants when I reached the door, about 30 seconds later Cops came SCREECHING to a stop.
I almost went to jail, the cop told me "If anyone is going to jail its you"
It was a wakup call. I used to be horrible about traffic. I guarantee the kid will pay attention when he drives now.
If I saw ME running up to that car the way I did....I would have shot me. It would probably have been justified too
I've gone so far as to have gotten out of my truck while in line at a freakin' Starbucks drive-thru to yell at the so-emo-his-grass-cuts-itself angstry idiot teenager behind me, who had decided to lean on his horn to express his impatience with life in general in spite of the fact that I clearly had no way to move.
I hate it when folks use their car horns for anything besides emergencies or a quick "hey, heads-up, doofus" tap at stop lights. Like, Blues Brothers/Illinois Nazis kinda hate, and I was not having a good day to begin with either (hence the reason I was at Starbucks, to procure a tasty treat so I could eat away my mental anguish; no, it didn't work).
Big smile on my face, yelling things like "Whatsamatta, I thought you were attempting to establish a dialogue with me!" at his closed window. Poor Ichabod-Crane-looking candy-ass was practically in his passenger seat...
After which, I was struck with the more sensible realization of just how stupid that was.
Not the act itself (I heat emos; screw that guy), but that I didn't really think to take a look at what sort of fool I was gonna check. Utterly failed to execute the first "O" in my OODA loop, in that instance; lots of bad nastyness can come down as a result of not thinking somethng like that through, since not every assclown driver or car-horn = everyday comms device moron is automatically gonna be an emo.
I thought that gunpoint/lawn thing was an article somebody put up within the last year...
EDIT: BCm and I are getting vehicularly pissed off by the same sort of people....:D
Last year a guy decided to go the speed limit -10 gust after a curve in the highway. I slowed down as much as I could but got too close for the meathead's likings. He break checked me twice. The first time I actually thought he was having trouble in front of him. The second time, I could see the entire undercarriage of his vehicle. Shortly after, we were stopped at a light. I ignored him completely. I put my right turn signal on to turn and when he saw that, so did he. The guy made the right and pulled over to "chat". I pulled next to him and he started screaming at me. I exited my vehicle (bad idea now that I think about it) and literally made the guy cry.
After my 2 minute rant, he followed me to my station. He saw that I was a police officer and called the state police and told them that I had ran him off the road and "scared him". Needless to say, he left out the part about break checking and such.
It didn't go well for me in the Chief's office the next day but he heard my side of the story and I didn't get reprimanded.
GermanSynergy
09-02-11, 14:54
A few months ago LittleLebowski & myself were on the way to USTC from NOVA, and while we were driving thru a particularly.......upscale urban area we were given verbal greetings and salutations from a carload of Beverly Hills type individuals.
They were all driving aggressively, but we didn't wish to be drawn into any sort of confrontation, so I just disengaged and let them hoot/holler/carry on down the street.
Not very macho or manly, but there's my "road rage" tale of wonder.
I've gone so far as to have gotten out of my truck while in line at a freakin' Starbucks drive-thru to yell at the so-emo-his-grass-cuts-itself angstry idiot teenager behind me, who had decided to lean on his horn to express his impatience with life in general
EDIT: BCm and I are getting vehicularly pissed off by the same sort of people....:D
Ya man I used to be really bad. as I get older I have calmed down alot. A friend and I were talking the other day about how his wife broke her horn, I was like "What? I cant even remember the last time I USED my horn haha.
Another time coming from A1A in cocoa beach waiting in the turn lane, a orange mustang full of teenage girls were next to another car of teenage girls talking and laughing, talking so much that they didnt even ACKNOWLEDGE the light turning green.
So when FINALLY they start to move, (driving) they are STILL having their stupid ass conversation, oblivious to their obligation to traffic behind them, after about 200 yards or so the speed limit changes (35 to 55) and they are still going slow and talking, I gun it and get on her ass to let her know there ARE other people with an agenda.
With my headlights shining into the rear window, I can see the dumb girls turn around, look at me, then turn to the other car an talking "Oh he cant move! lets block him in so he cant go around! but lets slow down too!" When this happened, the top of my steering wheel started to bend down along with the sound of cracking plastic.
I held it in, about a mile later, I whipped into the shoulder on the right and got next to the stupid cunts. They werent laughing now as I called them things I would be ashamed of if my mother heard me.
As I gunned it past them, I deployed my Boss's brand new ice cold mountain dew he had been waiting for for over 30 minutes out the window.
It made contact with the bumper of the orange mustang and exploded into a beautiful and instantly self gratifying flower of liquid mixed with ice and plastic.
When I got to the house, it was worth getting bitched out because taco bell "Forgot" his drink
jklaughrey
09-02-11, 15:21
Not so much road rage but, road anger.Up here in the PNW, mostly where I am. We have a common occurrence of opposing vehicles stopping so they can chat. Most times they know each other and this usually only happens on the more rural roads. But it has happened on main roadways and even the state highway system. At first upon moving here from L.A., I did a WTF and was angry, but now I accept the fact that if they aren't causing issue then fine. Now when I pull up behind I will give a quick honk so they know of my presence and they will move on or pull around to let me pass. Only once has someone gave me the social finger that I had to exit my vehicle, address him while presenting my tin. He very quickly apologized and expedited his leaving the area.
As some of you have noted, you would point your gun at YOU if you approached your vehicle.
If some of you guys get out of your vehicle and approach me, I already have my gun out and am pointing it at the door panel. As you come up to the window, I will point it at you and tell you to get back in your vehicle. If you walk back to your car, I am already calling 911 and turning your ass in (got your plate number, etc) and will be viewed as the victim. If you go for your gun, I already have the drop on you and you will lose this fight. I will then call 911 and (again) be the victim in the incident.
Just something to ponder the next time you think about getting out of your car to pick a fight (as you might just get someone like me). ;)
C4
No seriously - didn't you hold a guy at gun point a few years back because he walked on your lawn? Didn't you post about it on ARFcom?
My sincere apologies if it wasn't you.
If you are referring to the instance where I had several people at gunpoint at 1am who were hiding from police in my back yard then that was me. It was also when I used to live in a very crime prone area and I held them until police arrived and arrested them.
But I think there is a clear distinction between a gang of homies ducking down in your back yard in the middle of the night and somebody who strolls over your property line and didn't do anything else.
Is that the instance you are referring to?
As some of you have noted, you would point your gun at YOU if you approached your vehicle.
C4
And that is why if we come to that line, I just call and wait for the police. If it ain't big enough for the police to take over, it ain't big enough for me to get out of the car and ramp up the situation. I can call someone an asshole from inside my car, I've had practice.
:D
As some of you have noted, you would point your gun at YOU if you approached your vehicle.C4
Grant, I agree. I wouldnt blame you and that is your right to protect yourself.
I hope I am not being taken as if Im "Proud" of the stuff I stated. Im not. Not only could someone have gotten seriously hurt, but worse.
Do I regret doing any of it? No. Im not. I learned very good lessons form those situations and like I said, Im older now and I have more logic. I am "aware" of my actions and take responsibility.
Grant, I agree. I wouldnt blame you and that is your right to protect yourself.
I hope I am not being taken as if Im "Proud" of the stuff I stated. Im not. Not only could someone have gotten seriously hurt, but worse.
Do I regret doing any of it? No. Im not. I learned very good lessons form those situations and like I said, Im older now and I have more logic. I am "aware" of my actions and take responsibility.
No I understand, I am just making sure that people are aware that not everyone out there is a sheep with no gun. Things can turn out very bad very quick.
For the record, my sweet, friendly five foot, five inch, 110LBS wife has a road anger problem and has been known to flip people off, honk the horn and follow people. I advise her that she is writing checks that she cannot cash.
C4
Thomas M-4
09-02-11, 16:17
I had a weird episode 5 yrs ago on returning home from a company X-mas party. It was little after 11pm on the freeway in the far left lane going 7-8 mph over the posted limit there was some traffic on the free way but it was fairly light enough room to pass on the right if you wanted to. Left the party absolutely no event just plain every day trip back to the house with my wife in the truck with us talking about the lousy food at the party. Halfway home on the freeway following behind a car and with the correct distance the car in front of me. I get bumped from behind WTF I move to the right center lane to let the person pass I was also going to give them a piece of my mind for bumping me on the freeway.
Did they pass me no instead the car pulls in right behind me again and then bumps me from behind again. This time I don't know what the hell is going on I don't know if there is one drunk person male , female or a car load of gangbangers wanting to kill me and my wife just out of the blue. I had accelerated some when I moved into the center lane and now was passing the car I was following behind in the left lane. Soon as I cleared that person I swapped back into the left lane at started to slow down to prevent the car from being-able to pull behind me again now the car that was bumping me got pined in between me and a slower moving car in the center lane . I could now see the car it appeared to be a white Toyota Camry still couldn't see the driver or if there were any passengers in the car. The white camry then bumped the car in the center lane that had boxed it up against. The driver must have freaked out they didn't change lanes the just started slowing way down. At the same time I started to speed up again, The car that was behind me seeing all of this most have said the hell with this. I don't know exactly when it happened but either they had pulled off or they slowed way down and my tail was know open again. Sure enough looking out the rear view mirror here comes the white camry coming up behind me and coming fast. Now I was going north bound on the free way and we were coming up to the interchange to go west and east. The left lane merges to the west bound traffic which is what I have to go down any way.
By this time I am piissssssedddd off big time. And I be damned this person was not going to bump me again going through a turn. I that point I don't give a damn if you watch Nascar I got something for you. I told the wife to hold the wheel through the turn. I was not going to shoot unless I knew for sure the camry was going to hit us but the camry was trying to close the distance to bump us when I hung my upper body through the drivers side window and I had my pistol in left hand sighting up on the driver-side windshield in the turn. Then they had a change of heart when they saw the pistol pointed at them. As soon as we came out of the turn the camry accelerated and changed all the way to the fair right lane trying to get away at top speed my wife [YELL'S OUT ITS A GIRL] as the camry passes us on the passenger side At witch point I stand on the gas so I can get side by side to the car to see exactly who. Sure enough there was a white brunet early to mid thirties crouched down in the drivers seat trying to hide no one else was in the car.
Still to this day I have no clue who or why it happened.
The best that I or my friends can speculate was that either she drunk/high on something or that she thought I was an Ex BF or something.
Jay Cunningham
09-02-11, 16:35
If you are referring to the instance where I had several people at gunpoint at 1am who were hiding from police in my back yard then that was me. It was also when I used to live in a very crime prone area and I held them until police arrived and arrested them.
But I think there is a clear distinction between a gang of homies ducking down in your back yard in the middle of the night and somebody who strolls over your property line and didn't do anything else.
Is that the instance you are referring to?
No, it was a guy that you had proned out on your grass with a gun pointed at him - he turned out to be a surveyor cutting through your yard.
My bad if it wasn't you.
No, it was a guy that you had proned out on your grass with a gun pointed at him - he turned out to be a surveyor cutting through your yard.
My bad if it wasn't you.
Ummm no.
I have had surveyors, meter checkers, telephone workers and guys cutting brush back from power lines on my property on more than a few occasions. It isn't hard to recognize them for what they are and as they aren't doing anything like trying to gain access to my home I generally don't point guns at these people.
I think you would actually get arrested pretty quickly doing things like that. I'm also a bit amazed that you thought I had actually done something like that before and you haven't given me any shit about it so far. I'm actually kind of glad you brought it up so I could straighten that out. I don't mind being judged for the things I do, especially if done deliberately, but I'd hate to be judged for something I didn't do.
Jay Cunningham
09-02-11, 19:15
Oh sorry bro, thought this was you:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/608227__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Strangers_In_The_Yard___Do_You_Intecept_Them____.html&page=1
I avoid any confrontation when possible. When carrying a firearm IMHO you really have to take the high road whenever possible. It can go bad quickly, and at the end of the day it's just not worth it over some punks bad driving.
Oh sorry bro, thought this was you:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/608227__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Strangers_In_The_Yard___Do_You_Intecept_Them____.html&page=1
Well shit, I had forgotten about that.
But now that I am reminded, I don't see where I did anything terribly wrong. And he didn't merely walk on my property, he climbed over my back yard (6 foot wooden) fence. Bit of a difference.
I admit I was a little jacked up, but that was because I thought someone was entering my back yard and probably getting ready to break in my house. We had a rash of daytime break ins around the time.
Here is the entire story as posted.
"Now I'm used to the meter reader walking in the back yard once a month.
But today there was some long hair, scruffy looking loser type climbing over my back yard fence.
So I did what any normal person would do. I let my dog outside and while he was trying to figure out what to do with a German Sheppard I came around the other side of the house armed and told him to "show me some hands" and ordered him on the ground.
In short order two other guys come running up to the fence shouting that they are survey workers. Unlike the hippie on the ground (t shirt and jeans) these two are wearing orange vests and have equipment.
I tell the guy on the ground "don't move" (so that the dog won't go after him), holster my weapon and put the dog inside.
I go to make sure everything is ok and the long haired **** starts yelling at me. I tell him to shut the **** up before he really has problems. I then recommend that in the future he knock on the door and get permission to climb over my fence and enter my property. The other two guys were decent enough and were trying to calm things down, one even apologized for the problem.
I told them that if I had known who they were, nothing would have happened. I then pointed out the difference between their appearance and the guy in my yard. I pointed out he wasn't wearning anything to ID him as a county worker, no orange vest, no hardhat, not even an ID tag. I mentioned that for all I knew he was there to steal shit.
Things mostly calmed down and I headed for the door, scruffy guy made some comment and I told him if he had acted like a normal person and knocked on the door to tell me he was entering my yard none of this would have happened.
I can't believe the mentality of people who think they can do whatever the **** they want on private property."
I'd be more than happy to listen to what I did incorrectly given the situation.
Well shit, I had forgotten about that.
But now that I am reminded, I don't see where I did anything terribly wrong.
Generally not a good idea to introduce deadly force when you aren't faced with a lethal encounter, especially when you are the one initiating the contact.
The dog was probably more than sufficient in this case but its your yard and your rules. If he had been armed or was trying to make entry different story, but pulling a firearm on someone who is on your property is usually a good way introduce problems that are probably better left alone.
In this day and age, you never know who has a gun (leagally or not). Getting into these types of things are not a good idea (especially if you carry).
So just simply smile when they cut you off and call the State Patrol and tell them you have a drunk driver on your hands. Get the license number and be done with it.
Its just not worth dying for so let it be.
Excellent advice.
Generally not a good idea to introduce deadly force when you aren't faced with a lethal encounter, especially when you are the one initiating the contact.
The dog was probably more than sufficient in this case but its your yard and your rules. If he had been armed or was trying to make entry different story, but pulling a firearm on someone who is on your property is usually a good way introduce problems that are probably better left alone.
It's also not advisable to arm yourself and walk out of the house into the yard to confront a trespasser. As long as that yard is empty of your family, kids etc., I'd recommend that you arm yourself, call 911 and report a trespasser. Yell out the window and tell the guy you're armed, he's trespassing and the police are coming. All the while affording yourself the benefit of cover and concealment. You thereby retain all of the advantages both legal and tactical.
That said, the one good story I have for this thread happened when I was 17 or so. A bunch of friends and I were headed up to Pennsylvania to go skiing. We were driving two Dodge minivans, with short-range radios to keep in touch (this was in the mid-90s, before cells became commonplace). On the PA turnpike, some douche canoe in a BMW rips onto the highway and cuts me off, making me jerk the minivan into the left lane to avoid him. Then he gets into the left lane ahead of me and starts doing 55. WTF, over?
So I get on the radio, call my buddy in the other minivan, and tell him to get ahead of this assclown and box him in. Van 1 gets into position, and I bring up van 2 for a quick recon. Sure enough, a latte-sipping, suit-wearing, briefcase-carrying yuppie with a toddler in a carseat. Without looking back, I simply say "Pilot to bombardier. Open bomb bay doors."
At that point, my buddy Rick drops his shorts and presses his bare ass up to the side window of the minivan, and we mooned that idiot for about 5 miles @ 45mph on the empty early-morning turnpike. Periodically, I'd glance over and see the utter disgust on the yuppie's face as Ricky did some nasty disgusting thing or another. Thankfully, I didn't get to see whatever it was he was doing, but I nearly vomited when we got to the ski resort and I saw all the ass grease smeared on the inside of my mom's minivan window.
After about 5 miles, we took pity and assumed that yuppie-man had learned his lesson, and sped up again. Never saw the BMW again, and had a great ski trip. I also made Ricky buy some air freshener and Windex at a quicky mart and clean the window.
If someone was in my BACK yard I would have done the EXACT same thing.
In Colorado, its easier justifiable if they are in your backyard than your front. I guess on account of the fence and all.
I had a similar situation about a month ago, someone trying to come through our back door at 3am. And they WERENT quiet about it. I had my rifle on the other side of the door at ready. It sounded like they were honestly trying to bust it down.
I talked to a few of my cop friends. They said "I cant believe you DIDNT shoot him. I made the right decision, no one got hurt and I didnt have to explain to a judge why I shot someone.
Being the victim of a home invasion opens your eyes and forces you to do things a little differently. Having a pistol IN your forehead while you watch your friend get pistol whipped...you tend to take precaution and I will be DAMNED if im gonna let my girl and son go through that
If someone was in my BACK yard I would have done the EXACT same thing.
In Colorado, its easier justifiable if they are in your backyard than your front. I guess on account of the fence and all.
I had a similar situation about a month ago, someone trying to come through our back door at 3am. And they WERENT quiet about it. I had my rifle on the other side of the door at ready. It sounded like they were honestly trying to bust it down.
I talked to a few of my cop friends. They said "I cant believe you DIDNT shoot him. I made the right decision, no one got hurt and I didnt have to explain to a judge why I shot someone.
Being the victim of a home invasion opens your eyes and forces you to do things a little differently. Having a pistol IN your forehead while you watch your friend get pistol whipped...you tend to take precaution and I will be DAMNED if im gonna let my girl and son go through that
Shoot an unarmed meter maid in your back yard and get back to me on how that works out for you.
Now a guy trying to make entry into your home at 3 AM is certainly a very different situation to be facing, and one that would call for a more aggressive response. You are not talking about a situation where the threat is already under surrender and contained by a GS.
Why would you go out and ENGAGE a threat? Isn't the prudent play to ready yourself and observe, gaining the tactical advantage while doing so?
In Colorado, its easier justifiable if they are in your backyard than your front. I guess on account of the fence and all.
What if the yard has no fence? See where I'm going with that? Property is property.
I had a similar situation about a month ago, someone trying to come through our back door at 3am. And they WERENT quiet about it. I had my rifle on the other side of the door at ready. It sounded like they were honestly trying to bust it down.
This is not remotely similar. The post in question was about a trespasser. You're talking about a person in the process of forcing entry into your home to possibly commit a crime therein. Those are apples and oranges, as we say in copwork, and a reasonable person would believe that the bad people forcing your door at o'dark-thirty were not there to sell you cookies. A dude walking through your yard is, well, a dude walking through your yard.
Being the victim of a home invasion opens your eyes and forces you to do things a little differently. Having a pistol IN your forehead while you watch your friend get pistol whipped...you tend to take precaution and I will be DAMNED if im gonna let my girl and son go through that
Sorry for your experience, but nonetheless your incident with the night time door tampering as described is not similar to the trespasser. Be careful that your past experience doesn't lend itself to a decision to press a fight, with your family present, that doesn't need to happen.
If someone was in my BACK yard I would have done the EXACT same thing.
But, they were and you didn't. You stayed inside the house and called the police. That was the right thing to do. Going outside and leaving your family inside splits your responsibilities and leaves your family without your rifle and the aegis that it provides. Further, it takes you out of the sight of your partner and when you are apart from each other you run the risk of target mis-identification in the dark and friendly fire. If you're all together, that won't happen. Splitting up also leaves your family unprotected against a second threat from some other part of the house. Gather, hunker, prepare to repel boarders and call 911.
I hear ya both. I understand. I also see it now that you both have explained it like that.
I can also agree with the "engaging" aspect. Maybe I just would have taken more precaution? Im never more than arms reach from my pistol. I slipped ONE time and look what it got me.
Thank you both for your response. I will remeber that if ever faced with a situation
Generally not a good idea to introduce deadly force when you aren't faced with a lethal encounter, especially when you are the one initiating the contact.
The dog was probably more than sufficient in this case but its your yard and your rules. If he had been armed or was trying to make entry different story, but pulling a firearm on someone who is on your property is usually a good way introduce problems that are probably better left alone.
And I knew he wasn't armed how?
And by climbing over my 6 foot wooden fence, I'm of the opinion he initiated the contact. I didn't walk out to him on the street.
And I knew he wasn't armed how?
And by climbing over my 6 foot wooden fence, I'm of the opinion he initiated the contact. I didn't walk out to him on the street.
By looking at his hands, if the guy was armed and there to do harm your dog would have been dead, and you would have double backed into a gunfight. Are you looking for a gunfight? You confronted the person outside your home, by leaving your house you initiated the contact.
Take a step back, observe the threat level and go from there. It's actually pretty simple especially when you already control the fight with your dog. If you're a mean **** just let your dog eat him, he'll go away I promise.
Every threat has different levels and even in the same scenario you can have different threat levels (like in this case if you had children playing in the backyard but he still appeared unarmed) the key is matching the appropriate response based on the threat. Not all threats are the same. Imagine if when you got pulled over for 65 in a 55 that the LEO walks up with a gun drawn on you... They don't for a reason, they will elevate the response based on a chain of events.
A cool head is one of your greatest allies in a fight and pulling your weapon is one of the last things that you want to do... Bad shit happens when people point guns at people.
El Pistolero
09-02-11, 23:11
All I can say is driving in Guam is worse than driving in Juarez. The Chamorro and Philipino drivers are the worst I have ever encountered, and they usually don't have insurance so driving halfway across the island from the AF base to Navy just to shop can be a treacherous adventure, and having a baby in the car is the only thing making me keep my cool at times. I can't wait to go back to the mainland.
ETA: I forgot to mention Japanese tourists. It's like they all got cars yesterday, they don't know how to drive! I remember one Japanese guy running a stop sign and not bothering to look both ways before doing so and I almost him him, I cut him off and threw a McDonald's cup out my window at him and hit his rental car with it. Felt good to do that!
And I knew he wasn't armed how?
And by climbing over my 6 foot wooden fence, I'm of the opinion he initiated the contact. I didn't walk out to him on the street.
You threatened the use of deadly force by pointing a gun at a person who did not demonstrate the intent, the opporunity or the means to cause you serious physical injury or death. All of which are the things that the court looks for when it determines justification. In fact, you went out of your way to make close contact with him. You do realize that you can't shoot a person for walking in your yard right? I'm not arguing your right to confront a trespasser in your yard. I'm questioning your common sense, weapons discipline and tactics. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's the right course of action. Sounds like Mr. Cunningham was trying to make the same point.
You left the cover and concealment of your domicile to confront a trespasser in your yard, placing yourself at a tactical and strategic disadvantage. Suppose the "hippy" was indeed a bad guy and was armed. What would that have made his two buddies? You have now left your home and you're outnumbered three to one. Bad juju.
You escalated a trespassing to a lethal force situation. Anytime your bore is aligned with another human being, you're in lethal force territory. I stand by my original post about staying in the house, calling 911 and telling the guy to leave. The TJ Hooker approach to home defense is just asking for trouble. You caused law enforcement to have to escalate their response to a level that places them on what could best be described as a heightened state of alert. They are now entering a situation where a gun is being pointed in what could best be described as a low misdemeanor or city code infraction. If I drew down on every suspicious person I came in contact with, I'd have been sent for a head check and given my walking papers.
The "hippy" was clearly wrong. He should have knocked first and he should have been wearing proper attire and carrying ID. Something the police could have told him when they located him.
You made a very bad series of choices that thankfully worked out in your favor. Whether you realize that or not, is another matter entirely. One of the hallmarks of a good tactical professional is the ability to accept constructive criticism from your peers or from those with more experience than you. After every single call up I went on, we had a debrief as a group. Each SWAT officer recounted his actions, gave reasons for those actions and then self-criticized. After that, your teammates offer suggestions and criticize your actions. The people who can't handle that kind of thing usually don't get on the team. If they slip by, their tenure is oft measured in days. Don't be one of those guys who screws a goat on top of a hill and then plants his flag there for a fight to the death.
You know you could have handled that situation better and with less risk to yourself, the trespasser and the police.
It's also not advisable to arm yourself and walk out of the house into the yard to confront a trespasser. As long as that yard is empty of your family, kids etc., I'd recommend that you arm yourself, call 911 and report a trespasser. Yell out the window and tell the guy you're armed, he's trespassing and the police are coming. All the while affording yourself the benefit of cover and concealment. You thereby retain all of the advantages both legal and tactical.
Well here was my thinking at the time. I have a guy who is not any kind of identifiable person with reason to be in my back yard. Furthermore he is climbing my fence which is NOT how someone with a reasonable purpose for being on my property is supposed to enter my property.
Given that I must reasonably assume he is probably there to break into the tool shed in my yard, or attempt to break into my home. At the time there had been a few afternoon break ins.
And I'd rather deal with the guy while he is still busy climbing into my yard (hands occupied), distracted by the dog and not as prepared to deal with me. If he is in fact a burglar who is possibly armed, I haven't given him warning and I haven't sent him on his way to try my home another day.
What did happen is I was able to effectively control a person who entered my yard in a manner that was at best very suspicious and as soon as I understood exactly what I was actually dealing with the situation ended. Nobody was shot, beaten up or even bit by my dog.
I think if that guy pulled the same stunt at some cops house he'd probably not have fared nearly as well. As soon as he became argumentative he'd have likely been dealt with and I doubt he would have enjoyed the compliance method of choice.
By looking at his hands, if the guy was armed and there to do harm your dog would have been dead, and you would have double backed into a gunfight. Are you looking for a gunfight? You confronted the person outside your home, by leaving your house you initiated the contact.
Just because a gun isn't in his hands doesn't make him "not armed." But by confronting him while he was still using his hands to climb in my yard I had the advantage of him probably not having a gun, or any other weapon, in his hands even if he was in fact armed.
Take a step back, observe the threat level and go from there. It's actually pretty simple especially when you already control the fight with your dog. If you're a mean **** just let your dog eat him, he'll go away I promise.
Not really, if in fact he proved to be armed he would probably shoot my dog and now I am dealing with an armed person who now has the gun "in hand." Doing it my way protected my dog and gave me an advantage if in fact he proved to be armed.
A cool head is one of your greatest allies in a fight and pulling your weapon is one of the last things that you want to do... Bad shit happens when people point guns at people.
Everyone so far has made the assumption I am pointing guns at the guy. Having a gun in hand does not automatically mean pointing guns AT people. And I think I kept a very cool head, I was dealing with a confrontational and very suspicious looking guy who for all I knew had a gun in his belt. I controlled the situation without any harm to myself or the individual.
If we were talking about some guy just strolling through my front yard, it would be a very different situation. Climbing over a 6 foot wooden fence changes things very much. It's a bit like the difference between a strange looking guy knocking on your front door and the same guy trying the door knob if he thinks nobody is home.
If you climb my fence I have to assume certain things.
You do realize that you can't shoot a person for walking in your yard right? .
Actually.... you can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy
Actually.... you can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy
Good luck in life, sir. I would suggest pre-paid legal services or a modestly priced attorney on retainer.
Last one out get the lights please.
You threatened the use of deadly force by pointing a gun at a person who did not demonstrate the intent, the opporunity or the means to cause you serious physical injury or death. All of which are the things that the court looks for when it determines justification. In fact, you went out of your way to make close contact with him. You do realize that you can't shoot a person for walking in your yard right? I'm not arguing your right to confront a trespasser in your yard. I'm questioning your common sense, weapons discipline and tactics. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's the right course of action. Sounds like Mr. Cunningham was trying to make the same point.
You have assumed I pointed a gun AT somebody, all I said was I went out armed. And I wouldn't think about shooting him UNLESS he posed an actual threat, this is why I was armed because that could have happened. I was dealing with an unknown. He didn't pose a genuine threat that required me shooting him and as a result I never shot him.
You left the cover and concealment of your domicile to confront a trespasser in your yard, placing yourself at a tactical and strategic disadvantage. Suppose the "hippy" was indeed a bad guy and was armed. What would that have made his two buddies? You have now left your home and you're outnumbered three to one. Bad juju.
Well I actually gave myself a few advantages doing it the way I did (see above). By the time the other two guys showed up I had this one more or less under control and both hands visible. Had two more "bad guys" shown up who become threats it would be no different than if I just happened to be in the tool shed and two bad guys jumped into my yard.
I suspect however that most bad guys who see a homeowner who is armed and in control of their point man will usually bail.
You escalated a trespassing to a lethal force situation. Anytime your bore is aligned with another human being, you're in lethal force territory. I stand by my original post about staying in the house, calling 911 and telling the guy to leave. The TJ Hooker approach to home defense is just asking for trouble. You caused law enforcement to have to escalate their response to a level that places them on what could best be described as a heightened state of alert. They are now entering a situation where a gun is being pointed in what could best be described as a low misdemeanor or city code infraction. If I drew down on every suspicious person I came in contact with, I'd have been sent for a head check and given my walking papers.
Again you have made an assumption about my bore alignment.
The "hippy" was clearly wrong. He should have knocked first and he should have been wearing proper attire and carrying ID. Something the police could have told him when they located him.
You made a very bad series of choices that thankfully worked out in your favor. Whether you realize that or not, is another matter entirely. One of the hallmarks of a good tactical professional is the ability to accept constructive criticism from your peers or from those with more experience than you. After every single call up I went on, we had a debrief as a group. Each SWAT officer recounted his actions, gave reasons for those actions and then self-criticized. After that, your teammates offer suggestions and criticize your actions. The people who can't handle that kind of thing usually don't get on the team. If they slip by, their tenure is oft measured in days. Don't be one of those guys who screws a goat on top of a hill and then plants his flag there for a fight to the death.
You know you could have handled that situation better and with less risk to yourself, the trespasser and the police.
I understand your point of view, I simply don't completely agree with it.
I have to consider the scenario of IF he was truly the guy breaking into peoples homes during the day.
Scenario One: I yell out, I'm calling the police, I have a gun, etc. He is warned, escapes and come back another time more prepared to deal with my property and a possibly armed home owner at the time of his choosing.
While some may call that "safer" it doesn't personally give me warm fuzzies.
Scenario Two: He climbs into my yard and breaks into my tool shed. I'm inside, I call 911. I can now remain in my home while he grabs a several hundred dollars worth of power tools and hauls ass or I can attempt to prevent his escape and risk confronting a possibly armed burglar who is now caught in the act and in a better position to fight.
To me both of those are less desirable than the situation I had.
Scenario Three: He climbs over my fence and begins to attempt forced entry of my home. I can run and hide, call 911 and wait with a gun. He either takes a few things and hauls ass or finds me and we have the OK Corral gunfight. Or I can attempt to take him as he makes entry, and if he is armed this will probably be when he is most dangerous and I then have to try and take control of a guy who has just forced entry or more likely have a shootout with him right there and then.
None of those are really desirable to me.
Now I'm not saying the way I did it should be the textbook response, but for more than a few reasons it was the decision I took. If Mr Hippy DID IN FACT turn out the be the guy robbing houses AT THAT POINT all he had done was climb a fence and most criminals aren't willing to escalate something that minor into a shootout if he was in fact armed. Furthermore I encountered him when he was less prepared to deal with me rather than at a less opportune moment or one of his choosing. And if he was willing to ramp it up right there and then, I had quite a bit of advantage.
And lastly, I did that one on the fly. I went from standing in my kitchen to "Who the **** is that climbing over my fence into my yard?" and I think I did pretty good considering.
Good luck in life, sir. I would suggest pre-paid legal services or a modestly priced attorney on retainer.
Last one out get the lights please.
Good luck in life? I think Im doing just fine man thanks. I have been faced with pretty serious situations a few times, dont assume I have had the same life as you.
Were having a discussion, thats all. I dont understand why youre getting upset. Youre acting like Im pointing a gun at people walking on the sidewalk in front of my house.
Youre getting mad cause people arent agreeing with every word youre saying
Were having a discussion, thats all.
The problem with having a discussion on the internet is people often make assumptions and then form opinions on those assumptions.
As a "for example" I know a guy who had his window shot out by some loser who lived across the street. He called the police and they eventually arrested the guy who was high on drugs at the time of the shooting.
When a neighbor that was friendly to Mr. Drug user came over to talk to the guy about it, in an effort to convince him not to press charges, the guy commented that Mr. Drug User was damn lucky he wasn't outside at the time of the shooting or Mr. Drug User would have been shot.
Now what the guy was talking about was "returning fire" in a situation where he believed (as would have been mostly accurate if he was in his yard at the time) he was being fired upon by Mr. Drug User.
What the visiting neighbor "assumed" he meant is that he would after the fact go across the street and shoot Mr. Drug User long after the initial shooting.
As you can see we now have two very different scenarios arrived at simply based upon an assumption of what somebody meant by a comment.
In scenario A we have a defensive shooting where a victim lawfully returns fire after being fired upon.
In scenario B we have a guy who is no longer in a defensive situation and simply walks over to get even with a guy who shot at him (or in actual fact his property) earlier.
And based upon what assumptions a person forms changes the way they will view or criticize a given scenario.
As some of you have noted, you would point your gun at YOU if you approached your vehicle.
If some of you guys get out of your vehicle and approach me, I already have my gun out and am pointing it at the door panel. As you come up to the window, I will point it at you and tell you to get back in your vehicle. If you walk back to your car, I am already calling 911 and turning your ass in (got your plate number, etc) and will be viewed as the victim. If you go for your gun, I already have the drop on you and you will lose this fight. I will then call 911 and (again) be the victim in the incident.
Just something to ponder the next time you think about getting out of your car to pick a fight (as you might just get someone like me). ;)
C4
Ditto
if I get a idiot doing something and with the wife I might say break out the Iphone video !!!!
and if the guy gets really wacked I have called 911 a few times and just said look this is not a emergency but this person lic number blah blah is a freak and trying to cause a accident etc.. also if he does hit someone later you guys know he was up to know good
my brother who is a prosecutor says this kinda preemptive action if it goes to court could help you out if the guy tries to turn the story around should a accident occur and of course never get out and approach makes you go from victim to offender really quick
remember the post a while ago about the guy in PHX here that got out of his truck and walked up brandishing his firearm !well the guy he was walking up on had the drop and the guy walking up died !!!
pretty hard to say in court why you got out of your car and walked up to another and you are the victim !
I will say any situation we have been in ? I dont think anyone is perfect and there are things I wish I did AFTER the fact :) so not holding the OP accountable etc.. of anything cause I was not their and again AFTER the fact its really easy for me in my office to say WELL I WOULD HAVE :)
I have been pissed as all get be in the car this place freaks me out people are idiots
as we used to say on Maui if its "Tourist Season" how come we cant shoot them :)
No seriously - didn't you hold a guy at gun point a few years back because he walked on your lawn? Didn't you post about it on ARFcom?
My sincere apologies if it wasn't you.
But if it was an ARfcommer who walked on his lawn, he would have been legally justified. :jester:
I have no idea what the above non-sequitor means. It sounded good so I wrote it.
But seriously, in reviewing various shootings, the situations where I've seen people often get in trouble are:
1. Situations where the person shooting initiated or escalated the confrontation. Something like following someone in your car or getting out of your car would be an escalation and you would be seen as the aggressor.
2. People who left the safety of their home to confront someone when no one's safety was at stake.
This is not the same thing as shooting someone who is attempting to break into your house.
Magic_Salad0892
09-03-11, 02:37
I had a guy threaten to throw a bottle of piss at me after he cut me off, and I told him to eat my ass.
****ing hipster. Looked like he hadn't showered in days. I don't respond well to biological warfare so I reported him as a reckless driver.
Actually.... you can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy
Junkie, are you familiar with that case and the TX law that case was settled under? TX law allows deadly force when someone is breaking into YOUR home or your NEIGHBORS home. Those guys were BREAKING INTO the neighbors house. IIR TX is one of the only states that has a law like that and I would certainly not want to use that case law to determine my actions in a situation like the one Joe faced or Steyr faced...
That said, the guy was very lucky IMHO, and though he was cleared criminally he is fortunate that he wasn't pursued civilly. Criminal conduct is only part of your concern when deadly force is used.
Well shit, I had forgotten about that.
But now that I am reminded, I don't see where I did anything terribly wrong. And he didn't merely walk on my property, he climbed over my back yard (6 foot wooden) fence. Bit of a difference.
I admit I was a little jacked up, but that was because I thought someone was entering my back yard and probably getting ready to break in my house. We had a rash of daytime break ins around the time.
Here is the entire story as posted.
"Now I'm used to the meter reader walking in the back yard once a month.
But today there was some long hair, scruffy looking loser type climbing over my back yard fence.
So I did what any normal person would do. I let my dog outside and while he was trying to figure out what to do with a German Sheppard I came around the other side of the house armed and told him to "show me some hands" and ordered him on the ground.
In short order two other guys come running up to the fence shouting that they are survey workers. Unlike the hippie on the ground (t shirt and jeans) these two are wearing orange vests and have equipment.
I tell the guy on the ground "don't move" (so that the dog won't go after him), holster my weapon and put the dog inside.
I go to make sure everything is ok and the long haired **** starts yelling at me. I tell him to shut the **** up before he really has problems. I then recommend that in the future he knock on the door and get permission to climb over my fence and enter my property. The other two guys were decent enough and were trying to calm things down, one even apologized for the problem.
I told them that if I had known who they were, nothing would have happened. I then pointed out the difference between their appearance and the guy in my yard. I pointed out he wasn't wearning anything to ID him as a county worker, no orange vest, no hardhat, not even an ID tag. I mentioned that for all I knew he was there to steal shit.
Things mostly calmed down and I headed for the door, scruffy guy made some comment and I told him if he had acted like a normal person and knocked on the door to tell me he was entering my yard none of this would have happened.
I can't believe the mentality of people who think they can do whatever the **** they want on private property."
I'd be more than happy to listen to what I did incorrectly given the situation.
I have not read this post before today, but my initial thought is why you would give up cover/concealment by leaving your home?? You have the advantage so why give it up? Just open a window or crack a door and yell out.
With your actions, you were in what we call the "Dueling Position." If this guy had in fact been a up to no good, he also had two friends. Now you are out numbered with no cover.
I won't even go into letting your dog out.
I did not write the above to be rude or mean to you. I wrote it so others (that may have thought what you did was a good idea) could learn from your experience.
C4
I live in rural Ohio. I get surveyors on my property from time to time. They generally do not have a uniform on, did not tell me what they are doing and most commonly are standing in the middle of my gun range. I also get hunters during deer season following blood trails on my land (they are armed by the way).
How do I handle it? I observe them from my home for long periods of time to see what they are doing. Once I have some idea, I then venture out (with a concealed HG) and start up a friendly conversation (at distance).
The above works well and I am not putting myself, my dog or family at risk. The people that are on my property are not scared, pissed or offended.
C4
Junkie, are you familiar with that case and the TX law that case was settled under? TX law allows deadly force when someone is breaking into YOUR home or your NEIGHBORS home. Those guys were BREAKING INTO the neighbors house. IIR TX is one of the only states that has a law like that and I would certainly not want to use that case law to determine my actions in a situation like the one Joe faced or Steyr faced...
That said, the guy was very lucky IMHO, and though he was cleared criminally he is fortunate that he wasn't pursued civilly. Criminal conduct is only part of your concern when deadly force is used.
I am familiar with it. I remember when it happened. They played it on the radio morning shows for weeks.
I agree he was extremely lucky. I wouldnt have done that. Afoolish decision if you ask me
I have not read this post before today, but my initial thought is why you would give up cover/concealment by leaving your home?? You have the advantage so why give it up? Just open a window or crack a door and yell out.
With your actions, you were in what we call the "Dueling Position." If this guy had in fact been a up to no good, he also had two friends. Now you are out numbered with no cover.
I won't even go into letting your dog out.
I did not write the above to be rude or mean to you. I wrote it so others (that may have thought what you did was a good idea) could learn from your experience.
C4
Well I did cover most of those points in detail when others raised them.
I also don't believe you are being rude, I know some of you are posting out of genuine concern and offering guidance. I understand I may not do things in the traditionally accepted "civilian" manner but I did do most of them for a reason.
I also fail to see how letting the dog out is any kind of problem. FIrst off, it is the dogs yard. Anyone who enters my back yard unannounced should expect to meet one or both of my dogs, they belong there...other people do not. And that is why if somebody needs to access my back yard for a legit reason they should knock on my door so that I may secure the dogs.
Additionally, I am constantly working on my back bench or in the tool shed. So me being in the back yard with a gun on my hip, or a rifle on my bench is hardly unusual. I really don't create any kind of unique situation by being in my own back yard with a weapon. Had this guy climbed my fence on a good day I could have had a Uzi or MP5 on the bench and then I'd be dealing with an unknown with a SMG in my hand.
So I don't accept that I created any situation by being armed in my own, fenced back yard. Mr. Hippy created the situation when he climbed over my fence and into my back yard unannounced. Had I been in the back yard, walking the dogs with a pistol on my hip we'd have had EXACTLY the same situation only with an extra dog.
There are also of course many privacy issues, what if I was in the hot tub with my wife when Mr. Hippy decided to pay a visit? I consider my fenced back yard "private" and you need permission to enter, that is why I have a fence.
Well I did cover most of those points in detail when others raised them.
I also don't believe you are being rude, I know some of you are posting out of genuine concern and offering guidance. I understand I may not do things in the traditionally accepted "civilian" manner but I did do most of them for a reason.
I also fail to see how letting the dog out is any kind of problem. FIrst off, it is the dogs yard. Anyone who enters my back yard unannounced should expect to meet one or both of my dogs, they belong there...other people do not. And that is why if somebody needs to access my back yard for a legit reason they should knock on my door so that I may secure the dogs.
Additionally, I am constantly working on my back bench or in the tool shed. So me being in the back yard with a gun on my hip, or a rifle on my bench is hardly unusual. I really don't create any kind of unique situation by being in my own back yard with a weapon. Had this guy climbed my fence on a good day I could have had a Uzi or MP5 on the bench and then I'd be dealing with an unknown with a SMG in my hand.
So I don't accept that I created any situation by being armed in my own, fenced back yard. Mr. Hippy created the situation when he climbed over my fence and into my back yard unannounced. Had I been in the back yard, walking the dogs with a pistol on my hip we'd have had EXACTLY the same situation only with an extra dog.
There are also of course many privacy issues, what if I was in the hot tub with my wife when Mr. Hippy decided to pay a visit? I consider my fenced back yard "private" and you need permission to enter, that is why I have a fence.
By letting the dog out (on purpose) you just escalated the problem (where you did not need to). You also opened up the dog to harm (where there didn't need to be any).
I walk around my property (open carry) every day. Nothing wrong with that. Pulling your gun out and pointing it at someone or near someone without a really good reason isn't the best way to handle things (generally).
The golden rule is NEVER give up cover unless you have no other options. You had lots of options here.
C4
The golden rule is NEVER give up cover unless you have no other options. You had lots of options here.
C4
This is something that one comes to realize from good training, personal mistakes or the mistakes of others. I made this mistake once a long time ago and nearly paid for it with my life. I personally have seen the bodies of no less than 10 police officers killed or wounded for making the mistake of leaving or not seeking cover. One of my academy classmates was killed by gunfire two steps away from a large concrete fountain and flower planter that would have stopped the rounds that killed him. Instead, he left that cover to confront a suspect that he could have easily hailed and engaged from behind said cover. No one will ever know why. The lessons are all around us. How well we absorb them is what separates us.
This is something that one comes to realize from good training, personal mistakes or the mistakes of others. I made this mistake once a long time ago and nearly paid for it with my life. I personally have seen the bodies of no less than 10 police officers killed or wounded for making the mistake of leaving or not seeking cover. One of my academy classmates was killed by gunfire two steps away from a large concrete fountain and flower planter that would have stopped the rounds that killed him. Instead, he left that cover to confront a suspect that he could have easily hailed and engaged from behind said cover. No one will ever know why. The lessons are all around us. How well we absorb them is what separates us.
Thanks for sharing this info. As many know, I am a HUGE ADVOCATE of room clearing based training. Once you go through this type of training, you realize some things that will forever change your opinion about fighting with a gun.
C4
This is something that one comes to realize from good training, personal mistakes or the mistakes of others. I made this mistake once a long time ago and nearly paid for it with my life. I personally have seen the bodies of no less than 10 police officers killed or wounded for making the mistake of leaving or not seeking cover. One of my academy classmates was killed by gunfire two steps away from a large concrete fountain and flower planter that would have stopped the rounds that killed him. Instead, he left that cover to confront a suspect that he could have easily hailed and engaged from behind said cover. No one will ever know why. The lessons are all around us. How well we absorb them is what separates us.
Soory to hear that and for your loss.
Thanks for sharing this info. As many know, I am a HUGE ADVOCATE of room clearing based training. Once you go through this type of training, you realize some things that will forever change your opinion about fighting with a gun.
C4
I too believe that room or confined spaces training is very beneficial. When taught and properly supervised it provides an environment drastically different from the square range. It forces you to think before making movements and it provides nearly endless "what ifs" to challenge your mind. One of the best things my team did was institute a simunition based force on force program in our shoot houses and in commercial properties seized by the city in drug raids etc. We would work scenarios in warehouses, auto body shops, office buildings, etc. You learn quickly that even something like a sidewalk curb or heavy drain pipes can be used as cover if need be.
By letting the dog out (on purpose) you just escalated the problem (where you did not need to). You also opened up the dog to harm (where there didn't need to be any).
I walk around my property (open carry) every day. Nothing wrong with that. Pulling your gun out and pointing it at someone or near someone without a really good reason isn't the best way to handle things (generally).
The golden rule is NEVER give up cover unless you have no other options. You had lots of options here.
C4
From my perspective, I prevented a potential problem from being allowed to develop. By doing things the way I did, the situation was not allowed to develop to the point where I would need cover.
I understand that you and others may not agree with my proactive approach.
For every "what if" where the situation could have gotten worse by what I did, I can provide a "what if" where the situation could have gotten worse had I not done what I did.
We can play "what if" all day long with no real resolution or consensus. I did what I did for the reasons I stated, it isn't always what I would do, but if a proactive approach seems like the best course I might do it again. I try and do what I think is best for a given situation, I was there...I had to make the decision.
The decision I made resulted in NOBODY getting hurt.
This is something that one comes to realize from good training, personal mistakes or the mistakes of others. I made this mistake once a long time ago and nearly paid for it with my life. I personally have seen the bodies of no less than 10 police officers killed or wounded for making the mistake of leaving or not seeking cover. One of my academy classmates was killed by gunfire two steps away from a large concrete fountain and flower planter that would have stopped the rounds that killed him. Instead, he left that cover to confront a suspect that he could have easily hailed and engaged from behind said cover. No one will ever know why. The lessons are all around us. How well we absorb them is what separates us.
If I had looked out the window and seen a "man WITH a gun" you would be absolutely correct.
But what I had was an unknown, maybe has a weapon on his person, maybe not. I had the opportunity to intervene while his hands were busy and he was unprepared...so I took it.
But in this discussion I have people criticizing me because I approached an UNARMED man with a weapon, while others are criticizing me because I walked into a likely GUNFIGHT. And neither are accurate representations of what I was dealing with.
I had an unknown. And IF certain advantages were not there, for example if he was already in the yard and hands free, I would have treated it very differently. But I was dealing with the situation I was actually dealing with, not the misunderstandings or the imaginings of others.
I think a lot of people are simply generalizing and not addressing my specific situation or the reasons I did the things I did. Some others think that any proactive approach, regardless of benefits, is always wrong. I don't happen to always agree with that philosophy.
From my perspective, I prevented a potential problem from being allowed to develop. By doing things the way I did, the situation was not allowed to develop to the point where I would need cover.
No, this was PURE DUMB LUCK. What you did is open yourself to being killed.
You always want to use cover if possible (FYI). It should be one of the FIRST things you think about.
I understand that you and others may not agree with my proactive approach.
We are all for being proactive (as long as we do not lose our advantage). This advantage would be yelling from the house where you have access to cover, phone, guns, ammo, escape, help etc.
For every "what if" where the situation could have gotten worse by what I did, I can provide a "what if" where the situation could have gotten worse had I not done what I did.
Sure, but at some point your "what if's" fail common sense on how someone should defend themselves.
We can play "what if" all day long with no real resolution or consensus. I did what I did for the reasons I stated, it isn't always what I would do, but if a proactive approach seems like the best course I might do it again. I try and do what I think is best for a given situation, I was there...I had to make the decision.
The decision I made resulted in NOBODY getting hurt.
At this point, you are the ONLY ONE in this thread that believes that what you did was a good idea. If you do not want to take my advice, please listen to the LE in this thread that deal with it day in and day out.
We all make good and bad decisions. When we make good ones, we survive. When we make bad ones, we might not survive. If we do survive, it is best to learn from them so the same error never happens again.
C4
From my perspective, I prevented a potential problem from being allowed to develop. By doing things the way I did, the situation was not allowed to develop to the point where I would need cover.
Because you were lucky doesn't mean that it was the right approach. You didn't need cover because you got lucky. Period. As LAV and others like to say "Tweekers travel in packs"... All of your focus was on the guy hopping your fence, it very easily could have been that the other members of the pack were making entry through the front of your property and he was merely a decoy. You bit on it and are lucky that it ended the way it did.
I understand that you and others may not agree with my proactive approach.
The only reason I chimed in to begin with is because you welcomed critique. I normally don't bother with interweb litigation but I thought I would simply put my thoughts into words so that you had alternate TTP to consider in the future.
For every "what if" where the situation could have gotten worse by what I did, I can provide a "what if" where the situation could have gotten worse had I not done what I did.
You can only do that if you are defending a poor response to a situation that luckily didn't go bad for you. It could have gone wrong in a number of ways.
We can play "what if" all day long with no real resolution or consensus. I did what I did for the reasons I stated, it isn't always what I would do, but if a proactive approach seems like the best course I might do it again. I try and do what I think is best for a given situation, I was there...I had to make the decision.
The decision I made resulted in NOBODY getting hurt.
True, but that doesn't mean its a good idea to repeat it. I will say it again. BAD SHIT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE POINT GUNS AT PEOPLE.
I would encourage you to never point a firearm at someone unless it is the only option. You had a LOT of options. We can all learn from the things that we do wrong, but we must be open to looking at a situation through a different prism so that we can learn from it .
See bold.
Well we obviously aren't going to agree on a few things.
I think it comes down to different kinds of people.
A rich guy who see's his car being stolen would never dream of putting himself at risk for "property" and will call police and expect them to come deal with it.
A regular guy who can't easily replace his car and knows there is a distinct possibility the police will not prevent the theft or find the car before it is destroyed might put himself at risk to prevent the theft.
And when it comes to strange looking individuals climbing into my back yard I guess I am that second guy.
You can blame me for the situation if you want. The reality is I did not create the situation. There are any number of things that could have prevented the situation.
The guy could have NOT CLIMBED over my fence. I didn't build it for people to climb on, I built it for privacy and to keep people OUT of my yard.
The guy could have asked permission to enter my property.
The guy could have used the gate, this would have made him far less suspicious to me.
The guy could have been DRESSED as a person who might have some reason to want to enter your property.
The guy could have worn and ID badge like the other guys.
The guy could have immediately identified himself and his purpose for wanting to enter my back yard INSTEAD of becoming confrontational.
There are probably a dozen other things this guy could have done to PREVENT the situation he created, he didn't do any of them.
And it could have been a lot worse, had he done the same thing while my wife was in the back yard I would have been forced to consider him as a possible attacker and I'm sure my response would have been much more aggressive.
He could have climbed in while my two dogs were back there. If he thinks "I" gave him a hard time, he really would not have enjoyed dealing with my dogs.
I also don't want him climbing on my fence and damaging it forcing me to pay for and make repairs. I don't want him falling off my fence and then suing me as a property owner.
And those are just a few of the many reasons you don't climb people's fence to enter their back yard. At BEST you may deal with an armed home owner who is going to make your life uncomfortable while he determines what you are doing.
But I do understand the whole cover thing, perhaps I will install concrete bunkers and barricades for extra advantage if and when the next idiot decides it is perfectly reasonable to climb into my yard.
You guys say I just got lucky, I say I controlled the situation before it had a chance to get out of hand. I was there, you weren't. I will say everything pretty much happened as I intended, and that usually isn't the product of luck.
As LAV and others like to say "Tweekers travel in packs"... All of your focus was on the guy hopping your fence, it very easily could have been that the other members of the pack were making entry through the front of your property and he was merely a decoy. You bit on it and are lucky that it ended the way it did.
More assumptions. I don't recall stating that I had a single focus.
The only reason I chimed in to begin with is because you welcomed critique. I normally don't bother with interweb litigation but I thought I would simply put my thoughts into words so that you had alternate TTP to consider in the future.
Yes, I did and then I responded to them. And all I did was state I understand many won't agree with my approach.
It could have gone wrong in a number of ways.
Anything can go wrong, included the recommended response. I provided a few examples.
BAD SHIT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE POINT GUNS AT PEOPLE.
And this is again something you are assuming. More importantly it is wrong. When you point guns at bad people and prevent them from doing bad things, that is hardly bad shit.
I would encourage you to never point a firearm at someone unless it is the only option. You had a LOT of options. We can all learn from the things that we do wrong, but we must be open to looking at a situation through a different prism so that we can learn from it .
Ironically, it is a result of a few personal experiences where I have used firearms to defend myself against "genuine" bad people that I have become more proactive than others. A few of those experiences taught me that "being late to the game" can be very dangerous.
The male ego is a very dangerous thing. It some how overrides common sense.
This argument has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with being trained or not being trained. Those of us that have a lot firearms and tactics training know that leaving cover is a poor idea. We also have no desire to play Rambo.
C4
The male ego is a very dangerous thing. It some how overrides common sense.
This argument has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with being trained or not being trained. Those of us that have a lot firearms and tactics training know that leaving cover is a poor idea. We also have no desire to play Rambo.
C4
Ok, before this starts to come across as argumentative, let me back up and attempt to re clarify a few things.
First off this had NOTHING to do with ego, nor was it a case of me ramboing out into the yard to reinforce some special forces self image fantasy of myself. I'm not special forces, I've never been special forces and I'm not promoting a special forces image that I need to protect.
More than anything else it was a case of my wanting to know who the hell is climbing my fence into my yard and why. And I really didn't want to wait until he was popping back over the fence with a few of my power tools before I figured it out.
That is the main, central thing that was going on that day.
As a secondary issue, I did go about figuring it out in a pretty aggressive manner. I took a dog and a firearm for reasons of personal security should the prove necessary, but it was mostly done to discourage people from thinking that climbing over my fence into my back yard is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. I actively discourage such things as much as I can.
That is it, that is all, that is what the whole thing was about.
Now onto training and all of that good stuff.
I have received all manner of training from all kinds of people over the years. Some of them extremely qualified, some of them who are simply people who have mil or LE backgrounds or have received training themselves but with no significant actual experience.
What I do in a given situation tends to be a combination of what I have been taught over the years, combined with things I have learned from personal experience.
Some very qualified people have taught "The best defense is a good offense" and some very qualified people have taught "It's a lot safer to not go out there if you don't have to..." and IMO they are both right. Several of those people from both philosophies are alive today because they either "took the initiative" or because they exercised "discretionary valor."
I have had about a dozen various combative mindset courses where the instructors would have found little wrong with how I handled the situation. I have also had a similar number of LE instructors who have shaken their heads at some of the things I have done.
The problem we are having now (and here I am the one making an assumption) is there seems to be certain accepted doctrines on this forum and deviation from them is actively discouraged.
Now I am not here to say Larry Vickers (or any other proponent) of the tactics being promoted on this forum are wrong. That would be rather absurd. Larry Vickers, in addition to being something of a personal hero of mine along with guys like Richard Meadows, have more actual experience than most of the people I have trained with combined.
But I personally believe there are many situations where there is more than one single correct answer or response. And more importantly, I think my specific scenario has been misunderstood as a result of several assumptions at best or distorted into something more than it was at worst in order to make it seem more than it was.
Some have characterized the situation as one of me pretty much jumping a harmless guy who accidentally wandered into my yard and me drawing down on him and putting his life in danger when he did nothing wrong.
Others have characterized the situation as me willfully disregarding my own safety as I waded out into the Battle of the OK Corral without and concern for basic tactics like cover.
And neither are really a fair or accurate representation of what happened.
I guess in the future I should refrain from sharing my personal experiences because the might not coincide with current, accepted doctrines. I only am having this discussion because somebody brought it up and suggested things went down in a very different manner than they actually did.
Following that clarification some people made certain assumptions I was forced to address and others simply disagreed with the things that I did or my motivations for doing them. I have now explained those things in sufficient detail as to be understood by anyone who actually cares to understand them and I am aware that some simply still don't agree with my chosen actions that day.
I'm not here trying to promote them as "the way it should be done", but it is what I did that day.
Now just so there is no misunderstanding, Larry Vickers (and everyone else who stated similar things including you) is absolutely correct that it would have been SAFER for me to stay indoors. I don't think there is even an argument there. But I didn't view the situation as being dangerous enough to risk losing some power tools so I intervened.
montanadave
09-03-11, 22:05
The problem we are having now (and here I am the one making an assumption) is there seems to be certain accepted doctrines on this forum and deviation from them is actively discouraged.
I guess in the future I should refrain from sharing my personal experiences because the might not coincide with current, accepted doctrines.
Curiously, I've had a similar experience when participating in discussions of a political nature. :lol:
The incident occured in 2007.
But I didn't view the situation as being dangerous enough to risk losing some power tools so I intervened.
I don't know what to say to this.
I'll float this out there too:
It took Mr. Cunningham several times to "remind" you of this incident. When he finally posted the the thread from TOS, you said "Oh, that's right....."
I'm not sure how many times you've had to engage people in your yard with the threat of lethal force, but to not remember this incident when Cunningham repeatedly asked you about drawing down on a person in your yard, you said "Nope, not me." How did you fail to draw the conclusion that he was naming this incident? How many lethal force incidents have you had with an intruder in your yard that you would forget something like this? The average law abiding person has very few interactions with the police. They can usually remember every one of them. For most it's a handful. Like getting a ticket, stolen property, car accident, etc. To be a civilian and pull a gun on an intruder in your yard puts you in a very small statistical category. Infinitesimally small.
So help me out with this. You pulled a gun on an intruder in your yard and wrote about it on TOS.
Cunningham refers to an incident about pulling a gun on a guy walking on your lawn and you don't pick up on it.
Cunningham asks you about pulling a gun on a meter reader and you say: "Nope".
Cunningham asks you about pulling a gun on a surveyor and you say: "Nope"
Cunningham then posts a link to a four year old thread (which is a Bubba tactics goldmine BTW) from TOS and then you realize: "Oh, that story."
See where I'm coming from here...?
It's been fishy from minute one, but I let it go and engaged in some debate to see where it would go. BUT:
For not being able remember the unique potential lethal force incident at first, you certainly were able to drill down to the nitty gritty and provide detailed hindsight about your tactics.
For not being able remember the unique potential lethal force incident at first, you were surprisingly clear in your narrative of events.
For not being able remember the unique potential lethal force incident at first, you demonstrated a remarkable ability to counter point every piece of advice and criticism of your actions in detail from a well trained civilian firearms professional and a career SWAT officer from one of the largest cities in the U.S. To the point that it became a moving of the goal posts.
This has been a very informative discussion and I hope you readers at home have enjoyed storytime. Coming up next week:
Iranian terrorists have seized all the Sizzler Steak Houses in town.
What to do?
I don't know what to say to this.
I'll float this out there too:
It took Mr. Cunningham several times to "remind" you of this incident. When he finally posted the the thread from TOS, you said "Oh, that's right....."
Quite honestly, because it in fact turned out nothing more than some idiot climbing over my fence I did forget about it. More importantly the way Mr. Cunningham referenced it was hardly accurate so I didn't make the association. It was also several years ago.
I'm not sure how many times you've had to engage people in your yard with the threat of lethal force, but to not remember this incident when Cunningham repeatedly asked you about drawing down on a person in your yard, you said "Nope, not me." How did you fail to draw the conclusion that he was naming this incident? How many lethal force incidents have you had with an intruder in your yard that you would forget something like this? The average law abiding person has very few interactions with the police. They can usually remember every one of them. For most it's a handful. Like getting a ticket, stolen property, car accident, etc. To be a civilian and pull a gun on an intruder in your yard puts you in a very small statistical category. Infinitesimally small.
Well when I used to live in a more fun neighborhood (District 13 Ft. Lauderdale), I had no less than twelve separate instances of holding people at gun point on my property until the police arrived in a single year. These included gang members, drug dealers and people who were hiding in my yard from police. I was also so well known by our two district officers due to these kinds of instances that one night when monitoring the police radio while they were looking for somebody in my area one specifically asked if anyone checked my house yet because "I" might already have them.
So I seem to be the exception to your rule.
So help me out with this. You pulled a gun on an intruder in your yard and wrote about it on TOS.
Close, I took a gun with me when I intercepted a guy climbing over my fence and made a post about it on TOS mostly to complain about people who don't know better than to climb a persons fence.
Cunningham refers to an incident about pulling a gun on a guy walking on your lawn and you don't pick up on it.
And I didn't associate it because he was wrong on both counts.
A guy DID NOT walk onto my lawn, a guy climbed over my 6 foot wooden privacy fence into my back yard.
I did NOT pull a gun on him, I took a gun with me for my own protection while I intercepted a guy climbing over my fence.
Had Mr. Cunningham asked me about an incident where a guy climbed over my back yard wooden fence and I intercepted him and shook him out I probably would have made the association.
But I also had four similar (but much worse due to actual criminals being involved) instances start out that way in my old neighborhood so I'd still have probably needed to narrow it down IF he actually asked about intruders climbing my fence into the yard, which he never did.
Cunningham asks you about pulling a gun on a meter reader and you say: "Nope".
And I never did.
Cunningham asks you about pulling a gun on a surveyor and you say: "Nope"
Cunningham then posts a link to a four year old thread (which is a Bubba tactics goldmine BTW) from TOS and then you realize: "Oh, that story."
And IF he had presented it as it happened, as posted on TOS I probably would have made the association, I didn't, I forgot and when he posted the link (which he could have simply done from the outset) I remembered and then copy/pasted the entire thing.
See where I'm coming from here...?
It's been fishy from minute one, but I let it go and engaged in some debate to see where it would go. BUT:
Sure, you think I ducked it. But the reality is I did not make the association due to the mischaracterization when he initially made the reference.
For not being able remember the unique potential lethal force incident at first, you certainly were able to drill down to the nitty gritty and provide detailed hindsight about your tactics.
For not being able remember the unique potential lethal force incident at first, you were surprisingly clear in your narrative of events.
For not being able remember the unique potential lethal force incident at first, you demonstrated a remarkable ability to counter point every piece of advice and criticism of your actions in detail from a well trained civilian firearms professional and a career SWAT officer from one of the largest cities in the U.S. To the point that it became a moving of the goal posts.
Once I KNEW what we were talking about, I could clarify a great many things. I don't remember any of the things I have received traffic citations for, but I bet if you were to show me the tickets I could tell you exactly what happened and why. Even stuff that happened 20 years ago.
And funny how when I correct a misconception or explain why I did things in a certain manner, it becomes moving the goal post.
This has been a very informative discussion and I hope you readers at home have enjoyed storytime. Coming up next week:
Iranian terrorists have seized all the Sizzler Steak Houses in town.
What to do?
So if I'm now reading you right, you now discount the event as a story? This after suggesting that I engaged in some attempted cover up to prevent the truth of the event from being known?
Tell ya what. It's late, I have a bowl of cereal waiting for me and I am really glad I took the wife out to dinner and watched a movie tonight. Because if all I did this evening was have this internet debate I'd really be upset.
So think what you like, my bowl of cereal will taste the same regardless of what you choose to believe.
Steyr, its probably best to just put this to bed... You aren't interested in learning new TTP's and I don't think anyone is interested in shoving what we have learned over hundreds of hours in formal training environments down your throat. You have to be receptive to looking at a scenario completely opposite of what your programming tells you to do. You clearly aren't interested.
Nothing personal, but I'm done trying to gently nudge you to look at the different options that you had and didn't use.
On a side note, maybe the scanner isn't a good idea for you as it sounds like you end up seeking out armed confrontation. Based on your numbers you have more armed encounters than many LE that I know.
I will leave you with this... In the future its always a good idea to avoid armed confrontations like the ****ing plague and as a rule NEVER, EVER leave your home to do so unless its the only possible way to preserve life.
So if I'm now reading you right, you now discount the event as a story?
Yes. Unequivocally. Good day, sir.
Steyr, its probably best to just put this to bed... You aren't interested in learning new TTP's and I don't think anyone is interested in shoving what we have learned over hundreds of hours in formal training environments down your throat. You have to be receptive to looking at a scenario completely opposite of what your programming tells you to do. You clearly aren't interested.
Nothing personal, but I'm done trying to gently nudge you to look at the different options that you had and didn't use.
On a side note, maybe the scanner isn't a good idea for you as it sounds like you end up seeking out armed confrontation. Based on your numbers you have more armed encounters than many LE that I know.
I will leave you with this... In the future its always a good idea to avoid armed confrontations like the ****ing plague and as a rule NEVER, EVER leave your home to do so unless its the only possible way to preserve life.
First, I thank you for having a discussion rather than attempting to play games and distort things.
And it isn't really that I'm unwilling to listen to you guys and consider what you are saying. It is more of a situation where we aren't talking about what somebody should do but discussing something that already happened.
I can't do it differently, it already occurred. All I can do is explain my reasoning for doing things the way I did and correct the various misconceptions and assumptions that some people were making.
As for the police scanner, I sold it when I moved out of District 13 over 15 years ago. In that neighborhood it was a good idea to have one as crime that could have a direct impact on me and my home was a very common occurrence. Please keep in mind every one of those instances occurred on my property, I didn't need to go find them.
Thankfully where I live now is a much different situation and the only time things get very interesting is right after a hurricane.
And I appreciate your advice, you are correct that it is much safer to NOT leave your home or confront people on your property. I do know that. But at the same time there are also things I'm not willing to accept.
If I see a guy breaking into my car, it is much safer for me NOT to go outside and definitely safer for me to NOT confront the person doing it. But truth be told, I'm probably going to do it anyway. It seems to be how I'm wired.
Yes. Unequivocally. Good day, sir.
Ok so we weren't even having an actual discussion just trying to play a silly ass gotcha game. No problem.
Well congratulations Dick Tracey you found me out.
You got me.
I very much AM THE GUY who had no idea what Jay was talking about given his very inaccurate description of the event.
And...
I very much AM THE GUY who when a link was finally posted, could then remember in great detail something that happened to me in 2007.
I could also give you a lot of detail about what I did and how I felt about building the fence over 10 years ago. But if you asked me about the time I put some boards near my house I might not make the connection and realize what you are talking about.
But you definitely got me cold. And you are free to believe, or not believe, anything you wish. I guess the good news is if you don't believe it even happened, I didn't really make any mistakes.
:sarcastic:
Magic_Salad0892
09-04-11, 05:31
I've been watching this thread from afar since the discussion started.
I have a few questions:
At what point did AUG ever say he drew a gun on a dude?
At what point did he say he wasn't monitoring the rest of his backyard? Or even went IN the backyard? He said he stepped outside. He did NOT say ''I RAN INTO THE BACKYARD AS IF I WERE A BARKING DOG! COME **** WITH THAT!''
TBH, yeah. He made a mistake, but IMHO many of us here would have done similar.
The situation was in his control, and if it had gotten out of control, he was NEAR cover, even if he wasn't IN it.
I'd also believe the police scanner thing, because when I lived in North Highlands, California I had one too. And much like SteyrAUG I also had cretins come through my backyard (and once INTO MY HOUSE) more than 6 times.
This isn't a crazy story.
Also: If you asked me what gifts I got for Christmas when I was 10 I couldn't tell you. But if you asked something about a specific gift, I could tell you what wrapping paper it was in, or even how much it was. (My mom always had a habit of leaving the price tag on things.)
Example: My girlfriend just brought up when I got Marilyn Manson's autobiography when I was younger (that book came out in 1997 I believe, I still have it) I couldn't recall which bookstore I got it at, or even when.
But when asked about when a gay guy hit on me, because I shared his interest in the Red Hot Chili Peppers (I was wearing a shirt featuring them them) I remembered that he had the dumbest flaming dice tattoo on planet Earth on his neck.
This is at the same time I got that book.
I'm not sure why you guys are ganging up on him...
I've been watching this thread from afar since the discussion started.
Might have been a good idea to continue to do just that.
I have a few questions:
At what point did AUG ever say he drew a gun on a dude?
I came around the other side of the house armed and told him to "show me some hands" and ordered him on the ground.
holster my weapon and put the dog inside.
At what point did he say he wasn't monitoring the rest of his backyard? Or even went IN the backyard? He said he stepped outside. He did NOT say ''I RAN INTO THE BACKYARD AS IF I WERE A BARKING DOG! COME **** WITH THAT!''
Read above it answers your question.
TBH, yeah. He made a mistake, but IMHO many of us here would have done similar.
The only reason I am involved in this discussion is that I hope that others WONT DO SOMETHING SIMILAR
The situation was in his control, and if it had gotten out of control, he was NEAR cover, even if he wasn't IN it.
If you have to release a working dog and draw your weapon on someone its far from under control. No, he wasn't near cover, he was fully exposed based upon the scenario described.
I'd also believe the police scanner thing, because when I lived in North Highlands, California I had one too. And much like SteyrAUG I also had cretins come through my backyard (and once INTO MY HOUSE) more than 6 times.
And how many times did you go outside and draw your firearm and take custody of these cretins?
This isn't a crazy story.
Okay, if I had thought it was I wouldn't waste my time discussing it?!?!
Also: If you asked me what gifts I got for Christmas when I was 10 I couldn't tell you. But if you asked something about a specific gift, I could tell you what wrapping paper it was in, or even how much it was. (My mom always had a habit of leaving the price tag on things.)
My money says that if you take custody of someone at gunpoint you will remember it. Just going out on a limb...
Example: My girlfriend just brought up when I got Marilyn Manson's autobiography when I was younger (that book came out in 1997 I believe, I still have it) I couldn't recall which bookstore I got it at, or even when.
Meaningless example is meaningless.
But when asked about when a gay guy hit on me, because I shared his interest in the Red Hot Chili Peppers (I was wearing a shirt featuring them them) I remembered that he had the dumbest flaming dice tattoo on planet Earth on his neck.
This is at the same time I got that book.
See above.
I'm not sure why you guys are ganging up on him...
Nobody is ganging up on anyone. He stated that he was OPEN TO CRITIQUE. That is the only reason that I offered my opinion. My opinion is just that, my opinion. I am certainly not saying I have all the answers, matter of fact I don't, but I have been around firearms and training for the last 28 years so I am simply trying to impart the seriousness of drawing a firearm before it is absolutely called for to preserve life. Nothing more.
I don't know Steyr and have never had an issue with him. This could have been anyone including Grant and I would offer the same comments.
BAD SHIT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE POINT GUNS AT PEOPLE
We are all mature adults who should be capable of having a discussion centered around TTP's without it turning personal.
See bold.
Or maybe it would have been a good idea to go to PM's instead of arguing on the internet for 3 days straight.
Ive seen threads closed for less. Not sure why this one is still open, Its obvious both sides are not interested in hearing the points brought up on either side.
My money says that if you take custody of someone at gunpoint you will remember it. Just going out on a limb...
And IF the situation was described accurately I would have, except of course for the whole gun point thing. I was simply armed, gunpoint tends to imply something more.
If you have to release a working dog and draw your weapon on someone its far from under control.
I have seen both done frequently (especially in my old neighborhood) and I suspect those officers consider the situation very much under control, especially once the guy is down on the ground. Granted I didn't have the guy in cuffs or anything so that may not qualify, but in short order the situation was resolving itself as the identifiable survey workers made it clear what the situation actually was.
Nobody is ganging up on anyone. He stated that he was OPEN TO CRITIQUE. That is the only reason that I offered my opinion. My opinion is just that, my opinion. I am certainly not saying I have all the answers, matter of fact I don't, but I have been around firearms and training for the last 28 years so I am simply trying to impart the seriousness of drawing a firearm before it is absolutely called for to preserve life. Nothing more.
Sure did. And with the exception of one guy trying to play gotcha games I have simply listened to those criticisms and explained my reasoning and motivations for what I had done.
I have also tried to be candid about the fact that I understand there are better or safer ways to do things.
We are all mature adults who should be capable of having a discussion centered around TTP's without it turning personal.
And you and a few other guys have and I actually appreciate it if that isn't coming across.
Or maybe it would have been a good idea to go to PM's instead of arguing on the internet for 3 days straight.
Ive seen threads closed for less. Not sure why this one is still open, Its obvious both sides are not interested in hearing the points brought up on either side.
While it may not seem like it, given that I was kept pretty busy correcting some misconceptions and attempting to more fully explain my own motivations, I'm actually very interested in hearing professional opinions on these matters.
It is one thing to do something that is very risky because you choose to do it that way and you know there are other ways it could be done, it is quite another to simply not know at all and walk into a very dangerous situation without realizing the potential risk at all.
I have done the former and I have done the latter. That latter is a lot scarier and IMO much more dangerous. I don't mind doing the former if I deem it to be worth it, but I am aware that I am doing the former.
It's nice to see that this thread has turned to absolute shit. So let's forget about the whole Steyr incidents and just think about the original one.
My wisdom is this. When I was younger I was all about whipping ass and smacking some heads. When I started to carry a weapon I got smarter, and as I got older (42 as of now) I realized that if I am armed I need to be the smarter party when something happens. That doesn't mean I can't defend myself. It means I don't give people the finger, chase them down and yell at them and tell they drive like shit.
I live in a state that prides itself on it's gun laws and in some cases "being the Wild West". I am also smart enough to know that in addition to legally armed citizens (who aren't always smart) there are probably those who are not supposed to have guns and they are the ones that may decide to shoot at you or threaten you because you looked at them wrong or you cut them off.
Something to think about before anyone wants to chase after some asshole on the road.
Now let's reign this in before it goes to the Poo-poo pile.
It's nice to see that this thread has turned to absolute shit. So let's forget about the whole Steyr incidents and just think about the original one.
My wisdom is this. When I was younger I was all about whipping ass and smacking some heads. When I started to carry a weapon I got smarter, and as I got older (42 as of now) I realized that if I am armed I need to be the smarter party when something happens. That doesn't mean I can't defend myself. It means I don't give people the finger, chase them down and yell at them and tell they drive like shit.
I live in a state that prides itself on it's gun laws and in some cases "being the Wild West". I am also smart enough to know that in addition to legally armed citizens (who aren't always smart) there are probably those who are not supposed to have guns and they are the ones that may decide to shoot at you or threaten you because you looked at them wrong or you cut them off.
Something to think about before anyone wants to chase after some asshole on the road.
Now let's reign this in before it goes to the Poo-poo pile.
the bold part are the people I worry about !
posted earlier but might have been lost sure you remember that one recent incident that the guy approached the other truck brandishing his gun and the other guy had the draw oh him ?
but those situations show why you never get out and approach ? IMHO
now its back to the guys in bold :) the idiots who are not carrying legally that I have to wonder if you piss them off they approach you I would be gun in hand ! and not want to loose that fight
or they the type that just pulls up along side and lets a few rounds off maybe hitting my kids in the back ?
seems to happen once in a while here ? their was some incident on 17 a while ago that sounded like that ? pissed off driver rounds fired while moving
scary stuff
Magic_Salad0892
09-06-11, 04:23
Meaningless example is meaningless.
While not as memorable, the point was the point out that one can remember very specific details about an encounter they barely remember at the start of a conversation.
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