View Full Version : This guy should be given a live round and some privacy.
QuietShootr
09-02-11, 09:57
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/local_news/GBI-Probes-Probation-Officer%27s-Death-20110901-am-sd
Senseless and preventable.
And I've seen it before.
I have heard it suggested that when you are constantly around firearms you sometimes get complacent and make assumptions about your own safety. And that is why I'm glad my father instilled into me a requirement where I physically inspect the chamber of any firearm I receiver or hand off to anyone.
If I hand you a gun and you return it the chamber is inspected four times. Some might think that is redundant and unnecessary but I feel more comfortable doing it.
SSGGunBunny
09-02-11, 13:52
Wow, that's terrible.
theblackknight
09-02-11, 16:14
**** head
Max him out. Roast him.
**** head
Max him out. Roast him.
Relax brother, I guarantee that he is already in his own hell. Not saying there shouldn't be consequences or jail time because a lot of stupidity, on his part, went into the making of this tragedy. Just saying take breath, a good man will punish himself more than the criminal justice system ever could.
And I've seen it before.
I have heard it suggested that when you are constantly around firearms you sometimes get complacent and make assumptions about your own safety. And that is why I'm glad my father instilled into me a requirement where I physically inspect the chamber of any firearm I receiver or hand off to anyone.
If I hand you a gun and you return it the chamber is inspected four times. Some might think that is redundant and unnecessary but I feel more comfortable doing it.
I give your father props for teaching you this way as this should be the standard for handling firearms everywhere.
QuietShootr
09-02-11, 19:34
Relax brother, I guarantee that he is already in his own hell. Not saying there shouldn't be consequences or jail time because a lot of stupidity, on his part, went into the making of this tragedy. Just saying take breath, a good man will punish himself more than the criminal justice system ever could.
I don't intend for this thread to go down this path, but when a non-cop friend of mine accidentally (not negligently, like this) shot someone, he had to go to jail. Sauce for the goose should indeed be sauce for the gander. Hang the stupid ****stick.
loganp0916
09-02-11, 19:36
And I've seen it before.
I have heard it suggested that when you are constantly around firearms you sometimes get complacent and make assumptions about your own safety. And that is why I'm glad my father instilled into me a requirement where I physically inspect the chamber of any firearm I receiver or hand off to anyone.
If I hand you a gun and you return it the chamber is inspected four times. Some might think that is redundant and unnecessary but I feel more comfortable doing it.
My father taught me the same way. Everytime I even get a gun out of the safe I check it a few times, knowing that I'm the one that put I in there and I NEVER leave rounds in firearms, whether it is in the chamber or not. Well, except for a hd shotgun, but even then it doesn't have a shell in the chamber.
QuietShootr
09-02-11, 19:39
My father taught me the same way. Everytime I even get a gun out of the safe I check it a few times, knowing that I'm the one that put I in there and I NEVER leave rounds in firearms, whether it is in the chamber or not. Well, except for a hd shotgun, but even then it doesn't have a shell in the chamber.
Actually I believe this is backwards. All my guns are pretty much always loaded, in the safe or not, and I know this - so I treat them as if they were Condition 1 all the time, because they are. I never relax. People who are scared of loaded guns are the ones who have accidents like this one, because they allow themselves to relax when they think they're handling an unloaded gun.
Unloaded guns kill.
loganp0916
09-02-11, 19:44
Actually I believe this is backwards. All my guns are pretty much always loaded, in the safe or not, and I know this - so I treat them as if they were Condition 1 all the time, because they are. I never relax. People who are scared of loaded guns are the ones who have accidents like this one, because they allow themselves to relax when they think they're handling an unloaded gun.
Unloaded guns kill.
I completely agree.
Unloaded guns do kill!
I'm just trying to emphasize that I too treat guns as if they're loaded no matter if they actually are or not.
Relax brother, I guarantee that he is already in his own hell. Not saying there shouldn't be consequences or jail time because a lot of stupidity, on his part, went into the making of this tragedy. Just saying take breath, a good man will punish himself more than the criminal justice system ever could.
This is sad. There is no excuse for this. He killed a fellow Officer. But, I could not imagine what this guys is going through. Like you, I'm OCD about gun safety and muzzle discpline. It was instilled at a very young age.
During a quarterly qualification, we had a "former" range master going over the course of fire, standing in front the firing line. He drew his pistol and (skipping the step where he would show everyone his weapon was clear) fired a round accross (parallel to) the firing line into the side burm. That was a wrap for him. I think people just get too comfortable, then complacent.
Actually I believe this is backwards. All my guns are pretty much always loaded, in the safe or not, and I know this - so I treat them as if they were Condition 1 all the time, because they are. I never relax. People who are scared of loaded guns are the ones who have accidents like this one, because they allow themselves to relax when they think they're handling an unloaded gun.
Unloaded guns kill.
Even if I just physically inspected the chamber one second prior I still observe the "loaded gun" rules and I don't put my finger on the trigger unless I intend to drop a hammer and I point the weapon in the direction that I prefer to have it pointing IF it were to be discharged.
The problem with guns that have been verified as unloaded is many people are then willing to treat them like some kind of prop.
Devildawg77
09-03-11, 12:34
First, my condolences to Officer Bishop's family, friends and colleagues. Secondly, THIS is exactly why I treat even red/blue guns as if they were loaded and real. Yet another example of how complacency can kill. Regardless of what should or does happen to the instructor, WE failed Officer Bishop. This has happened before and unfortunately will probably happen again, because WE don't do enough to correct such deficiencies. There are far too many of us too worried about ruining careers and friendships, and thus don't address these problems as we should.
This is very sad and inexcusable on the part of the instructor. He should be punished severely and I that should include time in jail IMO. That said, I have a hard time calling for his death given it was not done with intent or malice. I'm sure the worst punishment he will face is having to live with his mistake until the day he dies--though I don't think that obviates the need for some state administered justice. Just not execution.
Even if I just physically inspected the chamber one second prior I still observe the "loaded gun" rules and I don't put my finger on the trigger unless I intend to drop a hammer and I point the weapon in the direction that I prefer to have it pointing IF it were to be discharged.
The problem with guns that have been verified as unloaded is many people are then willing to treat them like some kind of prop.
Exactly. I'm no longer comfortable using the old "Sir, verify this is an unloaded weapon. OK. So now it's cool that I'm going to point it at ya'll."
I don't know what happened in this situation, but it's always possible for someone to miss a round or for someone to absentmindedly load the weapon after the chamber check and then use it as a prop. Or maybe they are in the habit of using functioning weapons as props, and this time just forgot to do the chamber check.
I now think the rule should be that only weapons that have been clearly and visibly disabled (barrel sealed, blank fire adapter, chamber flag at bare minimum, etc) should be pointed at another human. This may be becoming the norm, but I've certainly had weapons pointed at me in the past.
And I've seen it before.
I have heard it suggested that when you are constantly around firearms you sometimes get complacent and make assumptions about your own safety.
A small sample size, but the AD I witnessed was between two of the most experienced shooters I know.
Lucky, no one was hurt, well at least not by the bullet. His wife, after hearing the shot and coming into the office to see the .45ACP sized hole in the file cabinet, went :jester::jester::jester: and we left him there just as fast as we could.
We still laugh at it in retrospect, but it was not at all funny at the time, and it sure drove home gun safety for me.
Exactly. I'm no longer comfortable using the old "Sir, verify this is an unloaded weapon. OK. So now it's cool that I'm going to point it at ya'll."
That's a damn shame what happened there and avoidable.
The picture on my web site in sig line was done with a timer on the camera.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/brinkinato3.png
The GF was more then willing to take the pic (knowing how anal I would be to be sure it was not loaded) but I just couldn't do it. The idea just screamed WRONG in my head. Using timer on camera made me feel much better.
When an instructor violates the three cardinal rules of gun safety in a classroom something is terribly wrong. If he had followed at least one of the three there would be little chance anyone would be hurt. that's why ther are thrre main safety rules: if you only lapse in one of them at a time you are not likely to hurt anyone. Lapse in all three and this can happen.
Sad occurrence for both parties and their families. I little precaution would have prevented such a terrible tragedy.
It just amazes me how often accidental/negligent shootings result in the death of someone, and then you hear statistics that most people intentionally shot with handguns survive. Tragic.
When an instructor violates the three cardinal rules of gun safety in a classroom something is terribly wrong. If he had followed at least one of the three there would be little chance anyone would be hurt. that's why ther are thrre main safety rules: if you only lapse in one of them at a time you are not likely to hurt anyone. Lapse in all three and this can happen.
Sad occurrence for both parties and their families. I little precaution would have prevented such a terrible tragedy.
It just amazes me how often accidental/negligent shootings result in the death of someone, and then you hear statistics that most people intentionally shot with handguns survive. Tragic.
Yes, of course, multiple of the 3 or 4 rules were broken, but what do you do when the teaching methods purposely don't follow the rules?
I don't know, but it may have been a case that the rule no 2 - never let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy - may have been violated, not inadvertently, but rather intentionally as part of a training scenario. (Again, to be clear, I don't know that that was the case here.)
You don't always hear about the folks that were just injured from NDs. I've met two people that have shot themselves, and neither made the internet.
John Hearne
09-03-11, 20:48
I'm curious to see what criminal ramifications there are for this officer. The recent Taser decisions (grabbing live firearm instead of Taser) make it clear that "accident happen" is not an acceptable excuse. The courts expect officers to act like trained professionals and there are consequences when they don't.
If you don't get qualified immunity for pulling your pistol instead of your Taser, should you get it for pointing a live weapon at a person and pulling the trigger?
Devildawg77
09-03-11, 22:19
John, Good question, but I'd say we need more details. We don't know yet if he "pulled the trigger" or if something else happened. It seems on the face of it that the instructor was almost certainly negligent in some aspect. I've checked, but each story is woefully short on details. The only new thing I've learned is that they were allegedly on break when it happened. Kinda conflicts with the original "occurred during a routine training exercise" story many other news agencies have reported.
theblackknight
09-05-11, 15:21
Relax brother, I guarantee that he is already in his own hell. Not saying there shouldn't be consequences or jail time because a lot of stupidity, on his part, went into the making of this tragedy. Just saying take breath, a good man will punish himself more than the criminal justice system ever could.
Derp much? I don't care how much he hates himself, he took a life and dosent deserve to live out his. The least we can do is fire him and take away all of his benefits and pension.
theblackknight - brother, I never said he shouldn't be punished. He deserves punishment for his negligence, no one is arguing that. I only asked you to take a step back to realize that there are a lot of people hurting from this tragic event and not just the victims family. You seem incapable of that and that is fine. But I will say that IF you really think the death penalty is appropriate when there was no intent to harm or kill, you may be more at home in Iran where you may find more like minded people.
theblackknight
09-05-11, 18:34
You seem incapable
Your hitting the X ring on that one. I realize this dude will be in a personal hell for the rest of his, that dosent mean I care.
To me, it's worse that it did happen and wasnt meant to.
A Blue gun is how much?40$ and prob supplied to him free. They are supplied to me, but that didnt stop me from buying my own.
Your hitting the X ring on that one. I realize this dude will be in a personal hell for the rest of his, that dosent mean I care.
To me, it's worse that it did happen and wasnt meant to.
A Blue gun is how much?40$ and prob supplied to him free. They are supplied to me, but that didnt stop me from buying my own.
I don't think you realize that we agree for the most part. He messed up, there was no excuse (like you said a blue gun is cheap), and he deserves to be punished. All I was saying was that you were goin off the deep end in anger. I can relate to that anger but when you start talking about how he doesn't deserve to live etc..., you have to check yourself. I'm anal retentive about safety and have never had a nd but there are plenty member on this very board who have. If their bullet stuck and killed a human being, are we as a society going to kill them for that mistake? Of course not and if you believe that to be the solution (not in anger but for real), I think you need to get a psych workup.
At the end of the day, this is a tragedy for all involved. Complacency is a killer!
theblackknight
09-05-11, 19:22
I guess Im a nutcase them.
As an instructor he should be held to a higher standard and punishment should be commensurate to that standard.
There's no excuse for this to happen to an instructor at a class. Even if no blue gun was available, it doesn't take much to ensure the gun is unloaded and cleared.
R.
jtsikes0204
09-08-11, 11:56
terrible terrible tragedy.....they left for lunch and he replace his training gun with his duty gun......they returned to class and he forgot to switch back.....pulled it to demonstrate a situation and fired........awful for all involved.
And I've seen it before.
I have heard it suggested that when you are constantly around firearms you sometimes get complacent and make assumptions about your own safety. And that is why I'm glad my father instilled into me a requirement where I physically inspect the chamber of any firearm I receiver or hand off to anyone.
If I hand you a gun and you return it the chamber is inspected four times. Some might think that is redundant and unnecessary but I feel more comfortable doing it.
Exactly. I had a cop roommate when I was a bachelor and he and his cop buddies were by far the most careless people I have ever seen around firearms. I used to tell him it was because he was so used to carrying a firearm all the time but it was inexcusable.
I brought him to the range once and was shocked to see that his side arm was loaded when he took it out of the case. I was sitting on his lap pointed at me the whole drive down.
After that I personally inspected his gun before he got in my car and when he came to my club. He used to laugh and say I was ridculous.
I went with them to a public range once and never witnessed such unsafe gun handling in my life.
ApacheTactical
09-10-11, 23:04
WOW!
So many things could be said to prevent these types of actions in the future.
threeheadeddog
09-11-11, 09:22
I hate to be the one to go against the tide here, but I dont really believe in automatic punishment for deaths caused by neglegence. I think that being a cop means absolutely shit to me in this case. As far as im concearned LEO in generall get way too much leeway in reguards to issues I feel are putting the populace at risk. In this case though(as in any case similar civi or otherwise) it really should be up to the family of the dead to decide weather or not charges will be pressed.
Just for clarification my reasoning for this is basically due to the horrible casses where someone accidently shoots a child or sibling. I feel that basically not all deaths require someone else to loose there life as payment. Also since I am a reasonable guy I figure what is fair for one should be fair for all.
Secondly, THIS is exactly why I treat even red/blue guns as if they were loaded and real.
WTF? If you treat blue guns as if they are real and follow universal firearm safety rules with them, how then do you use them for their intended training purpose of filling in for real guns in training situations in which you point them at people?
Devildawg77
09-17-11, 00:16
WTF? If you treat blue guns as if they are real and follow universal firearm safety rules with them, how then do you use them for their intended training purpose of filling in for real guns in training situations in which you point them at people?
I guess I should have been more clear. I don't muzzle sweep, I don't "play" with it, I don't point it at things I don't intend to "shoot", etc. I do the same when training with our sim guns. Seriously? I get a "WTF" over semantics?
I guess I should have been more clear. I don't muzzle sweep, I don't "play" with it, I don't point it at things I don't intend to "shoot", etc. I do the same when training with our sim guns.
Thanks for the clarification. No I wasn't trying to just bust balls over semantics. Treating them as if they are real to the extent possible makes sense, treating them as if they were real and loaded struck me as a WTF statement and I said so without giving it enough thought as to what you actually meant.
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