AAR Vickers Tactical Carbine 1 - 28 & 29 Aug 2011 - Okanogan WA

[Scimitar2]

I am a bit late on this one, but it is summertime and I am just now getting caught up on life.

Immediately following the Vickers Tactical 1911 Operator class-

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88164

The Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office hosted the two day Vickers tactical Carbine 1 class. This class had 19 students and with the exception of lunches, both days were spent out on the range under the sun.

I actually got to shoot my rifle through the class rather than my camera, so I do not have any pics from the class.

There were a handful of students that attended both this class and the 1911 Operator class. As with the 1911 Operator class, the class was a combination of current/former military, LE and average joes. One student had to bail on day two for work and one or two had to take a break on day one in order to beat the heat a bit.

For the most part, there were few weapon unexpected weapon issues. Aimpoints were strongly represented and had few if any issues. Of the EO-Techs in class, most if not all, had significant issues. Some would refer to this as a clue. A Trijicon RMR on a G-19 went down. Presumably due to a dead battery. I ran an AAC M4/SPR on my PWS rifle for a few hours and had two stovepipes due to the combination resulting in an over gassed rifle. I will be trying out a Vltor A5 buffer system out shortly to try to remedy this.

While I had seen most of the drills (or at least variants of them), Larry kept things fresh by interjecting team contests into every second or third drills to keep the pressure on without allowing any slack on accuracy.

The heat did effect things as the day wore on and it was clear in looking at targets that everyone was “hitting the wall” at about the same time. There was plenty of iced water/Gatorade down on the range and frequent rest/hydration breaks were taken, but the late summer heat still took its toll.

As with the 1911 Operator class, Larry was freaking hilarious and a walking, talking firearms encyclopedia. All questions were answered with a brutal honesty and the “why” of what he suggested was always presented.

If you have not trained/spent time with Larry, you are missing out.

All in all, it was great having Larry out for both this and the 1911 Operator class and I look forward to hosting him again in 2012.

[Limey-]

I have long wanted to train with Larry Vickers. To do so in the PNW is an opportunity not to be missed.

Day one started with Range safety. The range is a "hot" range and training proceeded using big boy rules. There were no safety violations that I can recall. There were no air soft commando's or tactical blowhards present.

There was a mixture of mostly tactical team LE, most of us were former military. A couple of current active duty with a small cadre of civilians. Everyone seemed well equipped with one exception and everyone completed the 2 days with one exception.

Stefan from OCSO hosted LAV. They did a fantastic job. The organization and communication were first rate. Stefan got some pretty good discounts on local hotels. The catered lunches on both days were good and cheap. Facilities around Okanagon are pretty good. OCSO Range is exceptionally fine for a small Department.

It was in the mid 90's both days. But its a dry heat (heard often). Big Thanks for the constant cold water bottles and Gatorade provided.

I ran my Dept issued GM Hydramatic M4'ed M16A1 with Eotech, Surefire 900A, AN/PEQ, single point sling and a mixture of P-mags and GI mags. Ammo was XM 193. secondary was HK P30 LEM with heinie sights in an issued safariland drop-leg holster. Did both days in Issued Tac Team Point Blank SPIDER armor. No equipment issues except dead battery in the Eotech half way through day one despite putting in new batteries the night before. It was darned hot in the armor. Most of the LE/Mil guys wore armor both days all day despite mid 90's heat.

Larry Started with zero's at 25 yards with confirmation at 100. Anyone who has read or seen anything about LAV knows he puts a premium on accuracy. There was a strong emphasis on the ability to put rounds in the black. LAV does not believe you can measure the quality of a class by the volume of rounds you put downrange.

He has some very definite ideas about equipment. He was proven to be right by the gear karma gods on a number of occasions during the class. A couple of Eotech's went down. One died completely and another (mine ) had batteries that died. Larry is not a fan of this particular RDS system. Were I not mandated to use it i would dump it in a heartbeat. Larry is not a fan of magnifiers or BAD Levers. There were a couple of Rifle issues. I will not mention brands or the other equipment issues but suffice to say a carbine class can wring out the bugs in a system. Listening to LAV pull apart the various components of the AR15/M16 system and its competitors and progeny is worth the price of admission alone.

I am not going to detail list the days. Firstly I did not take notes. Secondly Larry Vickers works hard to put on a great class. Listing the order of events gives you very little insight into the volume and breadth of information you are getting for a relatively small investment. I think you could take this class a dozen times and still get a great deal of information you missed the first 12 times out of it on the 13th time you took it.

Day One was multi positional shooting. Varying distance contact. Some transition drills.There were team drills with some colorful team names. One member of our team put on liberal amounts of white colored sunscreen. We became "Team Zombie". We were the lucky ones.

Larry is very freekin funny. You might need to apply some think skin if you have a fragile ego before doing a class with him.
His observations about elements of the tactical community and equipment are spot on, he is brutally honest and always right on target. A Walk back drill resulted in some very nice Vickers hats for the winners.

Day Two emphasized shooting on the move. Again LAV placed a premium on accuracy. Inside of 25 yards Larry is of the none diagnostic response school where you run dry or experience a malfunction then you go to the secondary. Beyond 25 yards you fix the problem. There was a a decent amount of time during two days going over stoppage and reloading drills and the weaknesses of the system we chose or are mandated to run. Transitional drills were Incorporated into the shooting on the move components. There was a solid foundation of shooting the carbine from the weak side. Its a skill most of us avoid dealing with. Its one I will certainly be working on more. There were team events and a walk back drill shooting weak-side out to 150 yards.

There was time spent on trigger control. Larry believes that trigger control trumps front sight emphasis in the real world. He spent some time going over the trigger reset misconceptions. We worked on "El Snatcho" if it existed. There was not really any to be seen during the static drills but it really did show up towards the end of the day on day two during the moving and shooting drills.

Larry made very astute observations constantly. For instance almost every LEO there was "moving off the line" with the pistol transitions. Larry made a great point as to its redundancy of purpose and and application in the real world. I think most all of the Leo's present will be taking a serious look at that particular training deficit as a result of the class.

All in all the shooters present were all of a high caliber. There were surprisingly few equipment issues. A great bunch of guys and a gal. Larry Vickers surpassed my expectations. The facilities and organization were fantastic. There was not even any brass to pickup. That's a jail function :D. Really looking forwards to training out at OCSO facilities again and particularly looking forwards to the return of LAV in 2012.

[Bourneshooter]

LAV Carbine 1
8-28/29-2011
Okanogan WA
Cost $450.00
Location: Okanogan County Sheriff’s Officer Range

Prior Training:
2008 Front Sight 4 Day Defensive Handgun
2008-2009 Front Sight Handgun/Shotgun Program Assistant Instructor
2009 NV POST Academy (Basic Handgun, Shotgun, Carbine qualification/familiarization)
2010 LMS Customer Appreciation Weekend
2011 Eagle Guardian Solutions CQDR (Close Quarters shooting/fighting techniques)
On going department and personal training with firearms.

Round count was less than listed. Probably about 500-600 rifle and about 60-70 pistol.

Weapons used:
LMT 14.5 upper with perm attached AAC Blackout, Daniel Defense 12.0 FSP rail, Surefire X300, Aimpoint T-1, Blue Force Gear VCAS, and Magpul ACS Stock.
Glock 19 with Surefire X300, Vickers Mag release, Trijicon Operator sights, Gripforce Adapter.

Gear: Day 1- Blue Force Gear SOC-C Battle Belt with ITW Fast mag, Eagle FB pistol mag pouch, Safariland ALS, Blue Force Gear Trauma Kit now.
Day 2 – Raven Concealment Phantom, Double pistol mag pouch and PMAG belt pouch.
Both days I wore the excellent Ranger Belt from Ares Gear.

8-28-2011
0830-1615 hours.
Weather – HOT!
Target – 25 yard bullsey and Rifle Steel.

Started in classroom. Very nice facility including air conditioned classroom. Host gave excellent safety brief. 2 designated medics. 1 primary, 1 secondary. 2 designated Dispatch contacts – radio on scene. 2 designated drivers to meet ambulance at entrance of range to guide Ambulance in.

LAV covered his real world safety rules and why they are done. NRA’s safety rules cause issues in a gunfight as they are based on a square range rules, not a 360 world.

Zero. Explanation of preferance for an 100 yard zero as an AR is only a 200 meter weapon – due to ammo effectiveness at distance beyond that. Start zero at 25 meters then confirm at 100. First EoTech failed during this time. (A lecture on optic companies from Michigan being crap resulted from this – Trijicon and EoTech). The first volley of rifle shots showed a serious problem of trigger control with most of the class. LAV decided it was time for a dime drill. This cured most peoples trigger control issue.

Shot 100 yard aggregate. 100 prone (-2), 75 sitting (-14), 50 kneeling (-3), 25 standing (-4). Time started at 1 minute and dropped 15 seconds every distance. I shot way to fast. Kneeling is the most useful position. Usually the one knee is the best due to stability. However different kneeling positions are useful due to height of cover in a real work situation is different.

Prone – “go into turtle mode.” Standing and kneeling are most used in real world.

Sitting sucks – I sucked because I had never used it before today. Only shot the sitting as it allowed us to shoot 4 different positions. Second day when shooting from the sitting position, I did better. Experience helps.

During first set of shots for 100 yard aggregate the second EoTurd failed. Less than 50 rounds shot at this point. LAV on EoTech: “EoTechs are shit. They are ****ing shit.”

During 100 yard aggregate regarding a student who hadn’t shown up with a lubed weapon (EoTech without a BUIS even), LAV stated: “That gun is as dry as a popcorn fart.”


Team drill: Didn’t like my name of “To Fast to Hit” so we were Team Short Bus. Others were Team Dumb ****s and Team Zombie (shooter who had a white face because of lotion).

First Team drills were done on a steel target. Team Zombie won the first Team Drill. Team Dumb ****s DQ’d and my team took longer. Team Zombie won second drill as well. When your first shooter doesn’t have electronic hearing protection and misses his second shot but can’t hear it, he causes the whole relay to DQ. So we lost that one as well.

The guy who earned the name “Team Zombie” was for lack of better terms, “That Guy.” Wearing “blinders” on your glasses are a surefire way to draw LAV’s ire. He brought a carry strap, not a Sling, let alone a “tactical sling.” He also brought an EoTech which failed in the first 50 rounds of the class. This guy also was offended when Larry was explaining the problem with the NRA’s safety rules vs. his “real world safety rules.” In the afternoon when pistols were used, Zombie brought out a SERPA, which Larry informed him was banned in his classes just like they should be banned in any training class and for anybody to use.

Walkback drill on rifle steel. I missed at 150ish yards which was longest range allowed. Only 3 shooters got hits at 150. All who got hits earned a free HSLD LAV hat.

Lunch was catered. Good food and good for asking LAV questions. If considering hosting a class, please cater lunch as it will allow the students additional time with the instructor.

Afternoon. Started with shoulder change drill. Stated that he first thought it was unrealistic until current CAG shooters told him they had done it in a gunfight. Stated that he couldn’t be a dinosaur and not teach it since it had use. Shoulder transition is a niche drill that is maybe %5 useful, but is emphasized by some instructors.

Transitions: 25 yards and in. Reason: A transition is done 25 yards and in because of such low level of skill required to get shot by a low trained adversary. El Snatcho kept visiting as the ease of shooting a rifle vs. shooting a pistol became clear.

Shot team drills. Rifle and handgun on paper. Team Short bus won. Team Short bus had a shooter visited by El Snatcho and screwed us by a lot of added time. During this team drill we came together and used communication to help each other out.

Shot a walkback drill on steel from Support side. 50 yards, 100ish yards, 150. I missed at 150 again. More shooters hit at the 150 using the support side than had strong side.

Due to weather and several students dragging, LAV had decided a night shoot was not a good idea. This caused LAV to go into training class thoughts/warning. If people are tired they won’t learn that much as your training ability is limited by how much your mind/body can take at a time. Develop a lot of bad habits at that point. 400 rounds a day is about the best round count for learning. LAV did seem to have a problem with some of the instructors doing about 1000-2000 rounds in 2-3 days as it just creates training scars/bad habits.

I did not like that the night shoot was canceled. This was a major disappointment for me as 70% of LE shootings and 80% of civilian shootings happen in low light/no light conditions.

Second Day:
0830-1530
Hot but slightly cooler than day before.
Lunch, catered BBQ chicken, cornbread and beans.
Only target used was the NRA 25 yard bull replacement center.

Morning was a review of the previous day’s shooting. First though we shot bull eyes from the 50 yard line and in. Kneeling, sitting and standing. Then malfunctions were covered. Preferred to use Push/Pull, Rack, Bang. If that didn’t work, then Lock, Strip, “Prom Night,” Bolt Forward, insert mag, rack bang. Demonstrated a bullet over bolt clearance. Stated you most likely needed a tool to clear it (Leatherman/Multitool). Malfunctions were practiced with the exception of the bullet over bolt.

LAV gave us a “bonus” and covered handgun shooting. Started with his empty case on front sight drill. I got chosen to demo it and well pressure got to me and I did it right 2 out of three times. This was a very good drill for fixing trigger control. Very useful for helping expose El Snatcho. Shot out to the 10 yard line with pistols. LAV also covered trigger reset and how to do it. Sadly several shooters in the class hadn’t been exposed to trigger reset, let alone to how do it. A lot of LE firearms training is antiquated and doesn’t cover this. LAV pointed out that it doesn’t mater if you have a perfect sight picture if your trigger control is crap.

Afternoon was all shoot and move. LAV covered foot positioning and how to walk when trying to minimize bounce. Also covered why he preferred not to shoot when moving backwards but that there is a possibility for it in a tactical situation. Shot forward and backwards from the 13 to about 2 yard line and 2 to 13 yard line. I did a very good job as long as I remembered this simple thing called “hold over.” Pistol skills on the move sucks for me. I did usually stay on the 25yd bull though. This skill was then done as a team drill. A figure 8 pattern around two 5 gallon buckets with each shooter shooting on three targets two rounds each down ranch and back to the starting point. Team Short Bus won both competitions.

During the afternoon Shooting on the move portion in reference to one former British shooter hitting the “mental wall” LAV mentioned the best one liner in the class. “He hit the wall like Princes Diana.” This launched the American vs. British jokes which in case anybody forgot, July 4th 1776.

During this day I had several bolt not locking back problems, was with 5 pre revision M PMAGs and couldn’t duplicate it with any of my other mags, USGI, PMAG (Pre Revision M and Revision M), HK. My LMT 14.5 upper with perm attached flash hider is under gassed so it is likely that was just the problem. It was awesome when it worked though. When I got home I tried to duplicate the problem with negative results. I’ll most likely be getting a new barrel/gas system on the AR which most likely will solve that issue.

Lessons learned:
Practice my trigger control more – Dime Drill with Carbine and Brass on Front Sight with pistol.
Shoot on bulls eye’s more at distance in standing and kneeling.
More shooting on the move practice, especially with handgun as I will be more likely to get in a shooting with a handgun in my line of work.
New barrel (non LMT gas system) is going in my rifle. Probably a Daniel Defense 14.5 LW barrel.

Advice:
When suggestions for equipment include Pen and Paper, do it. I was able to take a lot of valuable notes during the class by doing this.
Number your mags and pre load all of them. Not having to be constantly loading mags made more learning possible.
Have your gun zeroed before you go to class.
Shake out your kit before class.
Pre Hydrate and hydrate throughout the day.
Quality Electronic hearing protection is a must. Per LAV its going to be a requirement at all of his classes from now on.
If you haven’t taken a basic Carbine/Pistol class, don’t try to get into a class on the level of Carbine 1. A couple shooters did not seem to have any training before this with a Carbine. Just the “going to go shooting” knowledge so they didn’t point the weapon the wrong ways. LAV doesn’t want to cover the basics and didn’t in this class of Grip, Stance, etc.


Pictures to follow.

[Bourneshooter]

Day 1 Pictures Part 1:

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[Bourneshooter]

Day 1 Part 2

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[Bourneshooter]

Day 1 Part 3

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[Bourneshooter]

Day 2 Part 1

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[Bourneshooter]

Day 2 Part 2
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[Bourneshooter]

Day 2 Part 3

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[Bourneshooter]

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1682.jpg

[Bourneshooter]

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1666.jpg

[Bourneshooter]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1656.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1655.jpg

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1650.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1649.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1648.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1647.jpg

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1641.jpg

[Bourneshooter]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1640.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1639.jpg

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1627.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1624.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1623.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1619.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1617.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1613.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1608.jpg

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http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSCN1604.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC04029.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC04028.jpg

[Bourneshooter]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC04020.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC04016.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC04010.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC04007.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03998.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03997.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03996.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03995.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03994.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03993.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03991.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03986.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03979.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03978.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03977.jpg

[Bourneshooter]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03976.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03973.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03972.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03972.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03971.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03970.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03969.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03968.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03967.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03966.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03965.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03964.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03963.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03961.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03957.jpg

[Bourneshooter]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03956.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03955.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03954.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03953.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03952.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03951.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03950.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03949.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03948.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03947.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03946.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03940.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03934.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g33/Mattlevi/LAV%20Carbine%201%202011/DSC03933.jpg

[IdahoCorsair]

Scimitar2, Limey-, Bourneshooter, thanks for the AARs!

Bourneshooter, I'm not sure you posted enough pics. ;)

[Limey-]

Bourneshooter..............Nice job Brother.

[Bourneshooter]

Scimitar2, Limey-, Bourneshooter, thanks for the AARs!

Bourneshooter, I'm not sure you posted enough pics. ;)

I didn't post all of them, just some.


Bourneshooter..............Nice job Brother.

Thanks. Good shooting by the way.

[BountyXP]

Excellent AAR and awesome pics. On a side note...can't tell you how many times I caught myself subconsciously searching faces for "The Zombie"... ;)