View Full Version : What Brands to Avoid?
A few threads here have got me thinking the last few days. M4C is a technical forum and we pride ourselves (most of us) on giving advice or stating a fact and then backing it up with proof.
What I think would be a good thread, especially to the new comers, would be a thread about what specific brands or parts of a certain brand to avoid AND WHY.
I would be interested in reading about WHY not to purchase brand X or barrels from brand Y suck because.... but they make decent BCGs.
I don't want this to be a I hate brand XY because their owner is a D bag. I want to hear some cold hard facts. Who knows, maybe this thread can show the manufactures where they need to step up their game a bit.
What do you guys think?
Mr. Goodtimes
09-02-11, 22:05
Olympic Arms, DPMS, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, Rock River Arms, Les Baer, Model 1 Sales, Blackthorne, High Standard.
I could go on and on but all of these companies have something in common. A lack of quality control, use of sub standard materials, and a failure to meet, much less exceed, a minimum set of requirements set fourth.
i think this would be a great idea. i have not made it through all the stickies and treads, but this would definately be one i would be interested in as a newbie to putting together my first gun.
UTG/Leaper's
There are many more, but these brands in particular have failed me.
Before I knew any better I bought a Leaper's 6x scope and the end caps broke off while it was in the gun case in the back seat of my truck. And after looking through a Trijicon for merely half a second I saw what quality optics are all about.
I had bought a UTG quad rail one time, and while it did lock up tight and held attachments well, it must have weighed a pound and a half! only being a 7" rail. There are far superior products in this regard as well... A'hem... DD
And my last mistake was buying a UTG assault vest/rig. It was so cumbersome it was unusable and being a total noob, I could still tell there are better options for nearly the same price. Looking into an Eagle chest rig nowadays...
That's all I got for now
Another way to look at things is that if you buy a "known good" item, you don't have to worry about the rest of what is out there.
TonyTacoma
09-03-11, 00:12
Olympic Arms, DPMS, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, Rock River Arms, Les Baer, Model 1 Sales, Blackthorne, High Standard.
I could go on and on but all of these companies have something in common. A lack of quality control, use of sub standard materials, and a failure to meet, much less exceed, a minimum set of requirements set fourth.
I think this about says it, in the end QC is what will set great companies ahead of lesser ones. That and customer service, aswell materials and craftsmanship.
Magic_Salad0892
09-03-11, 02:17
BCM, DD, KAC.
You'll have so much fun shooting them, you'll forget you have a wife, and kids.
Exactly.
Another way to look at things is that if you buy a "known good" item, you don't have to worry about the rest of what is out there.
This is a difficult one. The fine line of pure suck is going to be crossed by every manufacturer at some point in time. Man made... says it all. But, as stated above, QC and a use of the correct materials for the job is a huge factor. Simply put, some are better than others at weeding out the horseshit, and giving a damn about what they produce. Therefore you have a more consistent, high quality product.
I don't think that I am willing to sling ape feces at any company, unless that's all they are handing out. The usual suspects, and we all know who they are, will show themselves to be what they are. Subpar, unwilling to step up, and/or happy with their current business practices(which are utter failures). The cream of the crop MIGHT have one slip through their fingers, although they are willing to say, I screwed up, my bad, I'll make it good, thanks for your business, we want you to come back.
That is where I'll be spending my bucks.
I hear what you are saying. However, we have had numerous examples posted over the years here as to why.
Even with pictures and documented proof we still get those who will argue and say "their xxx AR works".
It would also be a monumental task to try and compile all the info and put into one thread.
The thread "Oh No I bought a Bushmaster, Stag, etc..." before I knew better had plenty of info.
A few threads here have got me thinking the last few days. M4C is a technical forum and we pride ourselves (most of us) on giving advice or stating a fact and then backing it up with proof.
What I think would be a good thread, especially to the new comers, would be a thread about what specific brands or parts of a certain brand to avoid AND WHY.
I would be interested in reading about WHY not to purchase brand X or barrels from brand Y suck because.... but they make decent BCGs.
I don't want this to be a I hate brand XY because their owner is a D bag. I want to hear some cold hard facts. Who knows, maybe this thread can show the manufactures where they need to step up their game a bit.
What do you guys think?
Despite the flak this forum seems to generate when such admissions are posted, I have both a Colt and a DPMS M4, and both perform exactly as they were designed and intended to.
Contrary to many armchair internet "expert" opinions, the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds.http://www.recoveryourlife.com/forum/images/smilies/wow.gif
Magic_Salad0892
09-03-11, 05:01
Contrary to many armchair internet "expert" opinions, the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds.http://www.recoveryourlife.com/forum/images/smilies/wow.gif
That might change if you add another ''0'', and do it in a short amount of time.
mkmckinley
09-03-11, 05:38
Contrary to many armchair internet "expert" opinions, the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds.
Armchair internet experts? IraqGunz is an armorer that fixes and maintains fleets of ARs that are used daily in combat. He's probably forgotten more about the platform than most of us will ever know and he's kind enough to post his input on here for free. Ditto for the rest of the members with "Industry Professional/Subject Matter Expert" etc under their usernames. Say thank you and move on.
Magic_Salad0892
09-03-11, 06:11
Armchair internet experts? IraqGunz is an armorer that fixes and maintains fleets of ARs that are used daily in combat. He's probably forgotten more about the platform than most of us will ever know and he's kind enough to post his input on here for free. Ditto for the rest of the members with "Industry Professional/Subject Matter Expert" etc under their usernames. Say thank you and move on.
Aptly put.
IG has probably taught me more than any other single person on this site.
I'd say someone who goes against the vast accumulated real world experience here and declares victory after 200 rounds at the range IS the definition of armchair internet expert.
MPS,
You are exactly the type of poster that I am referring to. You see, you are making a decision or spouting off an opinion based on the sample size of ONE AR (DPMS) that you own.
Some of us here base our decisions off the sample size of HUNDREDS. On my last contract in Iraq I had 500 BM's under my care. I also had an opportunity to work on some DPMS guns and they were garbage.
If you like your DPMS so much, then I have to ask why did you buy a Colt? After all there is no difference between them and with the money you saved you could have purchased more worthless stuff.
I will almost be willing to bet that if I checked your carrier key screws (unless you have fixed them) they were not torqued and staked properly. I can almost guarantee that your castle nut wasn't staked properly (but that is hot or miss with DPMS).
Your gas port is probably rather large as well.
If you don't think that HP/MPI testing of barrels and bolts is important, then nothing we are going to tell you is going to change your mind. In addition the DPMS I looked at in country also did not have true 5.56 chambers. I posted at least one pic of M-guns reamer that I used in a DPMS chamber and what came out of it.
I love when you guys come out swinging with the drama queen statements like "the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds" . No one here has ever said that. What we have said is that the lack of quality control and variances will lead to problems. The question is simply; when?
Despite the flak this forum seems to generate when such admissions are posted, I have both a Colt and a DPMS M4, and both perform exactly as they were designed and intended to.
Contrary to many armchair internet "expert" opinions, the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds.http://www.recoveryourlife.com/forum/images/smilies/wow.gif
anatolian B
09-03-11, 07:21
As someone who has owned a DPMS and been very frustrated I have to thank IG and others on this site for the free education. What amazes me is folks are still buying that crap when you can get a Colt 6920 for $1,100! I wish I had know how big of a difference there was in the heavily marketed crap and the companies that use quality materials and have solid quality controls during manufacturing before purchasing a subpar AR.
The price difference is negligible, the quality differences are know, and you can find top tier rifles everywhere. Go get one!
BCM, DD, KAC.
You'll have so much fun shooting them, you'll forget you have a wife, and kids.
I belive the title of this tread is "what to AVOID"
Traveshamockery
09-03-11, 07:38
I belive the title of this tread is "what to AVOID"
The implication was to avoid those brands because they're so good, you'll neglect your other responsibilities for the sake of shooting them.
BCM, DD, KAC.
You'll have so much fun shooting them, you'll forget you have a wife, and kids.
Showed that to the wife and got smacked :lol:
Thread jack... Sorta
S&W M&P 15 - to avoid or not to avoid? I hardly hear much about them. Certainly not as much as DPMS or RR. So are they good? Even though not a Colt or DD.
IG, please elaborate if you don't mind
Sorry in advance if I am misreading the post but doesn't The Chart cover all of the technical differentiators between all the brands?
It seems as though any questions could be answered if someone was simply willing to invest some time researching the variances and then picking the rifle that best suited their needs.
Animal_Mother556
09-03-11, 08:03
Despite the flak this forum seems to generate when such admissions are posted, I have both a Colt and a DPMS M4, and both perform exactly as they were designed and intended to.
Contrary to many armchair internet "expert" opinions, the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds.http://www.recoveryourlife.com/forum/images/smilies/wow.gif
Wow, bro...wow.
Well, you ARE indeed correct in saying "...both perform exactly as they were designed and intended to..." Colt was designed and intended to be used heavily, abused, etc... The DPMS was designed and intended to be a plinker...NOT for use by a gunfighter during serious social intercourse (though some, like yourself, see it that way). But do NOT try to say that they are both the same. It's apples and oranges to me, man.
I also saw in one of your previous posts that you are a fan of TacStar lights. Please don't tell me you bastardized your Colt by mounting one on it.
Thread jack... Sorta
S&W M&P 15 - to avoid or not to avoid? I hardly hear much about them. Certainly not as much as DPMS or RR. So are they good? Even though not a Colt or DD.
IG, please elaborate if you don't mind
I purchased an M&P 15T and out of the box it shot well. The carrier/gas key and castle nut were both staked properly. So I went out and bought 2 cans of ammo and shot the piss out of it with no failures to mention. I didn't do to many mag dumps as the barrel was still new and needed to be broken in. After running it hard I decided to change the barrel to an LMT 1/7 CL, BCM BCG and added a T1 all for the accuracy and reliability that those 3 things bring to an AR. Then I took a 3 day carbine class we dropped around 2000 rds and I had 1 or 2 double feeds. Since then I slowly made other minor upgrades to it and thats it. Is it a good AR? some might say no but aftet running it hard and the upgrades I am happy with it. You could get a BCM for cheaper then what it cost me after all upgrades, but I built mine slowly when I had the extra cash. Next is a BCM upper and done with it. Maybe
Thread jack... Sorta
S&W M&P 15 - to avoid or not to avoid? I hardly hear much about them. Certainly not as much as DPMS or RR. So are they good? Even though not a Colt or DD.
IG, please elaborate if you don't mind
Personaly I, and I think many others, consider the M&P 15 to be the minimum acceptable quality AR. As such I have recommended the S&W to many begining to venture into the AR system as the minimum choice.
I grew up during the time period that BM was considered one of the best available. I had a BM in my safe when I discovered this site and saw first hand the lack of QC; zero staking on the castle nut, nearly non-existant and useless staking on the carrier key, 1/9 twist barrels, extremely heavy and gritty FCG, mis-aligned sight height on their flat top carbines. Initially it was a hard pill to swallow to hear my BM was a POS, however, having one in hand and seeing the above problems quickly convienced me that I truly did have a POS in hand.
For those individuals that continue to insist their POS carbine is "just as good as", then D Nile isn't just a river in Egypt anymore.
RogerinTPA
09-03-11, 09:26
The previous version of the "Chart" did just that. It caused sooooo much butt hurt internet wide, people with substandard ARs where jumping out of windows defending their poor selections. The current version is more PC friendly.
I NOW own a DDM4 and a 6920, I used a dpms in a basic carbine class about 2-3 years ago and it functioned well without any problems. I was more than 'new' to AR's and 'needed' one for this combined pistol/carbine intro class and for about $700 NIB out the door carbine just figured why not? It worked well for the class, found this site and obtained more info, borrowed a S&W MP for another basic class, it only jammed twice, figured that wasn't 'that' bad, researched a bit more and then picked up my present DD & 6920. Took another class with the DD and did not have a problem or even worried about having failure of any type, it was only about 1000 rds or so, BUT, I was using inexpensive wolf and silver bear ammo at the time, haven't shot much thru the 6920, but will bring it to my next basic class this coming December, hopefully won't have any issues then.
2theXtreme
09-03-11, 10:21
Sorry in advance if I am misreading the post but doesn't The Chart cover all of the technical differentiators between all the brands?
It seems as though any questions could be answered if someone was simply willing to invest some time researching the variances and then picking the rifle that best suited their needs.
The way I read it was that he is not just looking for weapons and manufactures but major parts and their manufactures as well. For instance, the A.R.M.S T1 mount. I was looking at getting a package deal with one until I came here, searched it, and found out it was crap. Now I own a LT 660.
I cant remember for the life of me remember where i read the article of the soldier who tested the reliability of the m4 in combat and used a dpms barrel(though he switched to a noveske after he shot out the dpms) and also used dpms buffer and spring, not sure if any other components of this terribly sub standard manufacturer were used. its no doubt some of these manufacturers are lacking in QC but i think the worst thing is they want almost as much for one of their rifles as manufacturers that have great QC, do the various HPT/MPI testing, follow the "TDP" and have desired components i.e. f/a bolt carriers and such
These threads never go well for seveal reasons.
The first main reason is that MOST PEOPLE have experience with ONE or TWO AR's. They also tend to have very low round counts with little to now training school experience.
The second reason is that most people are married to their purchase. They often suffer from "Malfunction Amnesia" and cannot remember their weapon ever having a problem.
People would be wise to realize that not all opinions are equal. Meaning that you could have someone like IZGunz (professional armorer) that has seen more guns than 90% of the M4C members VS a guy that owns ONE AR.
I will stay away from poo-pooing any certain brand and just tell people to buy from KNOWN QUALITY Companies. Some of these companies would be BCM, DD, Colt, KAC, Noveske, LMT, etc.
C4
The WORST ARs I've seen are from OLYMPIC ARMS and LWRCi.
I've seen bad guns from other makers... but not in the volume of the previously mentioned two.
Thread jack... Sorta
S&W M&P 15 - to avoid or not to avoid? I hardly hear much about them. Certainly not as much as DPMS or RR. So are they good? Even though not a Colt or DD.
IG, please elaborate if you don't mind
Like jhs1969 and MSteele said... they're built properly. The downsides you might see are the BCG (non-FA) and the barrel (4140 steel, 1/9 twist), but that's to be expected in a cheaper rifle. I picked an OR up so I could shoot while I spent a few months getting the parts for my build. After 1k rounds I decided to keep it as a backup rifle.
The MOE/OR models can be found for $750-800 at the right places and I believe S&W still offers a $100 LEO/military rebate. The T/X/VTAC (VTAC comes in 1/7 twist, not sure about the other two) models that cost $1100-1600 are a little overpriced for what they are imho. You're better off building your own or looking elsewhere at that point.
jonconsiglio
09-03-11, 11:01
Double post
jonconsiglio
09-03-11, 11:02
These threads never go well for seveal reasons.
The first main reason is that MOST PEOPLE have experience with ONE or TWO AR's. They also tend to have very low round counts with little to now training school experience.
The second reason is that most people are married to their purchase. They often suffer from "Malfunction Amnesia" and cannot remember their weapon ever having a problem.
People would be wise to realize that not all opinions are equal. Meaning that you could have someone like IZGunz (professional armorer) that has seen more guns than 90% of the M4C members VS a guy that owns ONE AR.
I will stay away from poo-pooing any certain brand and just tell people to buy from KNOWN QUALITY Companies. Some of these companies would be BCM, DD, Colt, KAC, Noveske, LMT, etc.
C4
Nothing bothers me more than people with limited experience and absolutely no training swearing that certain products are the best thing and better than all the other products they've never even handled then bashing products they've never even seen in person.
There's a member or two here with a high post count that do that constantly then you get some new AR owner thinking this guy actually knows what he's talking about.
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king... Or something like that.
I know what works for me and I know what doesn't. I have no clue what will work for the next guy... nor do I care for the most part.
Grant is more qualified than I to speak about S&W. They want to hit a home run, but they are slacking at batting practice. A few tweaks and they could make it right. It seems to be the curse of certain AR manufacturers.
Thread jack... Sorta
S&W M&P 15 - to avoid or not to avoid? I hardly hear much about them. Certainly not as much as DPMS or RR. So are they good? Even though not a Colt or DD.
IG, please elaborate if you don't mind
loganp0916
09-03-11, 11:50
MPS,
You are exactly the type of poster that I am referring to. You see, you are making a decision or spouting off an opinion based on the sample size of ONE AR (DPMS) that you own.
Some of us here base our decisions off the sample size of HUNDREDS. On my last contract in Iraq I had 500 BM's under my care. I also had an opportunity to work on some DPMS guns and they were garbage.
If you like your DPMS so much, then I have to ask why did you buy a Colt? After all there is no difference between them and with the money you saved you could have purchased more worthless stuff.
I will almost be willing to bet that if I checked your carrier key screws (unless you have fixed them) they were not torqued and staked properly. I can almost guarantee that your castle nut wasn't staked properly (but that is hot or miss with DPMS).
Your gas port is probably rather large as well.
If you don't think that HP/MPI testing of barrels and bolts is important, then nothing we are going to tell you is going to change your mind. In addition the DPMS I looked at in country also did not have true 5.56 chambers. I posted at least one pic of M-guns reamer that I used in a DPMS chamber and what came out of it.
I love when you guys come out swinging with the drama queen statements like "the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds" . No one here has ever said that. What we have said is that the lack of quality control and variances will lead to problems. The question is simply; when?
Hell, I didn't even know they would send BM's and DPMS's to Iraq.......
Who is they? FYI- They were being used by private contractors. Simply because those who made the purchases don't have any idea what the difference is as they all look the same.
And of course there was the price factor as well.
Hell, I didn't even know they would send BM's and DPMS's to Iraq.......
Contrary to many armchair internet "expert" opinions,
Is that really what you want to say here on your 5th post? Really? I suspect lane correction incoming...:rolleyes:
the latter will not disintegrate in your hands after 200 rounds.
If that's all you put through them per year, and it's something you may plink at the range with, differences may or may not show themselves.
I have a BM that has never been anything but reliable, but it's not a hard use gun, and I'd trade it in quickly and purchase something else if it was going to be a truly hard use gun.
Add some zeros to that figure, beat on it in austere conditions, etc, and some brands generally do far better then others, and that's well documented by the BTDT types who post here and other places.
With all due respect to everyone, if you're someone that owns a brand X rifle and you're comfortable staking your life on it, rock on. What does it matter what everyone else thinks? The one thing I would say is be honest with yourself. If you have to justify any gun to yourself by saying things like I'll never have to depend on it in a harsh environment or under harsh conditions, then maybe it was the wrong choice. Run it hard a few times, then make an honest assessment for yourself.
For someone looking to buy for the first time; it's hard to beat Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT or Colt. If you look around, you can get one of the above for around $1100.00 or $1200.00. Vickers and Defoor use DD, I think Falla uses LMT and countless others use BCM and Colt in harsh settings. My opinion is just that; mine, but it's hard to disregard guys that have that much experience.
Beat Trash
09-03-11, 12:55
If you own a gun that many here talk down about, don't take it personal.
If you are comfortable using your sample of one gun to protect your life or the lives of others, then have at it.
If you're intended purpose for your gun is as a recreational gun, and/or to bring out at family functions to scare your liberal mother in law (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that), then almost any gun will work.
If you are a first time buyer, I'd spend less time worrying about which brands to avoid, and more time looking at which brands are good to go.
I think we are in a golden period for the consumer of AR's. There are several good brands currently. They are all comparatively priced with each other, and the availability is there.
I know this post isn't along the lines of the intent of this thread. But too many people get their panties in a bunch if you politely suggest they spent their hard earned money on a product that is substandard. Especially when you mention a quality alternative would have cost about the same amount as they spent.
The WORST ARs I've seen are from OLYMPIC ARMS and LWRCi.
I've seen bad guns from other makers... but not in the volume of the previously mentioned two.
I know an instructor who teaches for the state and a large city PD, his duty AR15 was an Olympic Arms. He taught with that weapon, carried it on duty, and trained with it for years. This is a guy on a large tac team (MP5 guy) with a lot of trigger time. His experiences with OA were that the weapon was fantastic, highly accurate, and very reliable.
I think that as Grant and other have suggested multiple times in the past is that most people are lacking in the ability to observe large amounts of manufacturers AR15s over time. I've seen a couple OA ARs that appear to be perfection over long term use, but that isn't the norm.
Does DPMS make a great weapon? I think we could all say without fail that they have, but the larger question becomes what the numbers come out to in the larger picture. Colt and every other upper end manufacturer has problem weapons leave the factory, but its not often.
For people who answer these posts, it would be most helpful to know the background of the weapons and total amount they are referring to, along with the context to avoid generic internet folklore.
Great comments Grant and Trash. There are a ton of factors leading to what people purchase. Another friend of mine just purchased a Bushmaster, even after speaking with me! I don't hold it against him, because he didn't want to spend more money and is just going to use it for varmint hunting. He a hunter, not a big time gun guy. His choice, not mine.
Everybody has different ideas, wants and needs, and of course money. No one, however, should be taken over by the Stockholm Syndrome by any purchase they have made, of any kind. Buy what you want, but don't delude yourself and dismiss information from those who truly know the facts. When we try to defend the indefensible we don't end up looking very good.
loganp0916
09-03-11, 13:24
Who is they? FYI- They were being used by private contractors. Simply because those who made the purchases don't have any idea what the difference is as they all look the same.
And of course there was the price factor as well.
I figured it was a private contractor since you said you were on contract.
And by "they" I meant anybody. I didn't think anyone would take BM or DPMS overseas. I guess I worded that wrong. And I guess that kinda makes sense if the people ordering them don't do any research.
And I understand there is always a price factor but you'd think they would want a little more quality for people fighting in Iraq.
As seems par for the course around here, all the chest thumping mob mentality sorts have chosen to collectively unleash themselves on any differing opinion. Unfortunately this site is notorious for this sort of behavior. Those that took personally the armchair expert comment must have IDed themselves, and know who they truly are, because no one was mentioned by name.
There is no mention of my years of experience as a gun collector, military service, or day to day use of firearms of all varieties, however a stereotype of my character has already been erroneously extrapolated from a few sentences vicariously. Precisely the point I intended to make.
To answer a few questions for the hell of it, the DPMS was purchased WELL AFTER the 3 AR Colts in my possession (one being an M4 as it relates to this forum) and intended for plinking.
The TacStar light was mounted on the DPMS for what it is worth, and that thread dealt with ultra low cost flashlight options that still function, for which this recommendation fits the bill.
The 200 rounds=failure of the gun quote is lifted from one of the disparaging comments I am siting. I have in fact put well over 2600 rounds through that gun, with no problems. I can't be held liable for those who delight in taking comments out of context to further their agenda.
And with that, I'll be moving on.
polydeuces
09-03-11, 13:27
The only thing that keeps me shaking my head at this whole thing is that for bit extra, a fraction of the overall cost one can purchase an exponentially better rifle.
The same people balking at spending that bit of extra money won't flinch then spending that same amount, which they perceive as "saved", or "good deal", on all the bullshit attachments etc., without ever having shot it but thinking this is what's needed.
The more I learn, the less crap is attached to my stick.
Barrel, BCG.
Most everything else is window-dressing. (well, almost everything....;))
scoutfsu99
09-03-11, 13:32
I figured it was a private contractor since you said you were on contract.
And by "they" I meant anybody. I didn't think anyone would take BM or DPMS overseas. I guess I worded that wrong. And I guess that kinda makes sense if the people ordering them don't do any research.
And I understand there is always a price factor but you'd think they would want a little more quality for people fighting in Iraq.
There was a guy on Arfcom raving about how awesome his Delton was...he was in AFG.
As seems par for the course around here, all the chest thumping mob mentality sorts have chosen to collectively unleash themselves on any differing opinion. Unfortunately this site is notorious for this sort of behavior. Those that took personally the armchair expert comment must have IDed themselves, and know who they truly are, because no one was mentioned by name.
I think you opened yourself up to comments when you said "Armchair Experts."
If you would have just said, "Hey I have a Colt and DPMS and both work for me." No one would have said a word to you.
Don't instigate a fight if you don't want one.
To answer a few questions for the hell of it, the DPMS was purchased WELL AFTER the 3 AR Colts in my possession (one being an M4 as it relates to this forum) and intended for plinking.
The TacStar light was mounted on the DPMS for what it is worth, and that thread dealt with ultra low cost flashlight options that still function, for which this recommendation fits the bill.
The 200 rounds=failure of the gun quote is lifted from one of the disparaging comments I am siting. I have in fact put well over 2600 rounds through that gun, with no problems. I can't be held liable for those who delight in taking comments out of context to further their agenda.
And with that, I'll be moving on.
I could care less what AR you like. If you enjoy your DPMS, then great. Just never attempt to blow sunshine up our skirts and tell us the DPMS and Colt are equals (as they are not).
When listing round counts as a justification for a reliable weapon, it is always a good idea to list how long you have owned said weapon and if any of those rounds were fired in training classes.
I have personally witnessed just about every brand of gun running well (Oly, DPMS, BM, RRA, Hi-Point, etc). When evaluating a weapons reliability, we consider the law of averages. Meaning that if we took 100 rifles and shot them all the same, how many would run well?
Enjoy your AR's.
C4
I have in fact put well over 2600 rounds through that gun, with no problems.
I'm low speed high drag, not a true AR guy (spend most of my time trying not to suck with a hand gun...) and I have done that at a course. Others here probably do that per month not to mention big sample sizes of groups they work with/for.
And with that, I'll be moving on.
No objections here. Good luck.
When someone prefaces their recommendation with "not going to war" I know the performance of the rifle they are referring to is substandard. The ability for a rifle to withstand the rigors of war is normal, not something extraordinary.
Iraqguns has shown an impressive level of experience and knowledge with ARs and AKs. When he posts, I always pay attention to what he says. In that way, while my own experience with ARs is but a drop in the bucket in comparison (and non-existent with AKs), I've learned much from IG (and others) on this site
MPS,
Whether or not you choose to respond, I care not. Now you are acting exactly like other "stereotypical" posters of your ilk.
When confronted about your claims and when it is mentioned that your sample size is small you then go on the "offensive" and skirt around the issue as you have done here. When others point out the shortcomings and mention any facts you simply dismiss them.
So if you want to believe that your DPMS is great then I am happy for you. Sell your Colts as they are obviously excess and buy some DPMS goodness.
But, if you think for one second I am going to let you come here and tell everyone that it is good to go or it is equal to the other KNOWN manufacturers of quality AR's then you must be smoking something.
Not everyone here is a cop, military member, contractor, secret squirrel or whatever. But, many take their weapons seriously and knowingly choose to use the AR as their weapon of choice. That being the case many choose not to purchase crap and to that end if I can guide them down the righteous path then I will do so.
As seems par for the course around here, all the chest thumping mob mentality sorts have chosen to collectively unleash themselves on any differing opinion. Unfortunately this site is notorious for this sort of behavior. Those that took personally the armchair expert comment must have IDed themselves, and know who they truly are, because no one was mentioned by name.
There is no mention of my years of experience as a gun collector, military service, or day to day use of firearms of all varieties, however a stereotype of my character has already been erroneously extrapolated from a few sentences vicariously. Precisely the point I intended to make.
To answer a few questions for the hell of it, the DPMS was purchased WELL AFTER the 3 AR Colts in my possession (one being an M4 as it relates to this forum) and intended for plinking.
The TacStar light was mounted on the DPMS for what it is worth, and that thread dealt with ultra low cost flashlight options that still function, for which this recommendation fits the bill.
The 200 rounds=failure of the gun quote is lifted from one of the disparaging comments I am siting. I have in fact put well over 2600 rounds through that gun, with no problems. I can't be held liable for those who delight in taking comments out of context to further their agenda.
And with that, I'll be moving on.
Another way to look at things is that if you buy a "known good" item, you don't have to worry about the rest of what is out there.
And it's a shorter list and easier to type.
This thread kind of ended up the way I didn't want it to. I will say I'm glad I got a few of the members I wanted to to post here. What I was expecting was kind of what markm posted.
Example: LWRCi sucks because......... I would never buy their 5.56 guns but their 7.62 guns are good to go.....end example.
wolf_walker
09-03-11, 18:45
This thread kind of ended up the way I didn't want it to. I will say I'm glad I got a few of the members I wanted to to post here. What I was expecting was kind of what markm posted.
Example: LWRCi sucks because......... I would never buy their 5.56 guns but their 7.62 guns are good to go.....end example.
Anyone here for more than a day could have told you it'd end up this way, and a few pages from now will be locked. Sorry man, people like to argue. Pick out the good nuggets and move on.
And don't buy plastic AR lowers. It's just asking for trouble. :)
Also, avoid purple one's. They are the worst. Ever. Of all time.
MPS,
Not everyone here is a cop, military member, contractor, secret squirrel or whatever. But, many take their weapons seriously and knowingly choose to use the AR as their weapon of choice. That being the case many choose not to purchase crap and to that end if I can guide them down the righteous path then I will do so.
Exactly, well said bro and thanks.
CoryCop25
This thread kind of ended up the way I didn't want it to.
I know, and I'm sorry it went in this direction but it is headed in the direction I expected. Rob's "new" chart, I feel, goes a long way to achieving the goal I think you were attempting to achieve. It is answered by the manufactors themselves and is more technical in it's scope. The manufactors that refuse to respond to it, I feel, speaks volumes about where they stand. Their silence is deafening and I would never consider a purchase of their items, even if I didn't already know where they stand.
There is always a few standouts who moan and groan about all the bullies that are being mean and pick on their sub-standard choices. They cry about how typical this reaction is and how wrong it is and how tired they are of it. Well, I'm tired of it too. I'm tired of the pussies that cry and moan because their bottom feeder choices aren't respected and want to start a pissing contest over it. I'm glad we have people here who will hammer this bullshit back into it's proper place. I'm thankful for the guys like Grant and IG and so many others who speak the truth and do not wavier from it, otherwise this site will turn into another Arfcom. And therein lies the answer, for those who feel M4C does not cater enough to the low end ARs then you would probably feel more at home on TOS. Keep up the good fight guys.
I didn't listen to MarkM about LWRC and I only half regret it. I had an M6A2 and the Tricon model and was very pleased with the Tricon. The M6, however, suffered from carrier tilt and, after an acquaintance took it off my hands, cracked the piston. LWRC took care of it, but only after a lot of prodding via phone and email. The Tricon still runs just fine and has about 5-6K through it, but I much prefer my SR15 to anything else.
As for the DPMS issue, I know of plenty of them that run, but they aren't exposed to some of the more stringent courses of fire out there. Have a few LEO buddies whose departments issue DPMS (or allow them to buy their own) who have told me plenty of tales of gas key and castle nut issues. Not something I'd stake my life on, but if others out there choose to, they are braver men than me.
Finally, in relation to MPS calling out folks like IG, it just goes to demonstrate the majority of people in the scene. These are the people who make up the majority of Arfcom and the like. Not to drag my roommates (Motor-T and Assaultman Marine Vets against my time as a Seabee) under the bus, but neither one of them has any clue what to buy as civilians. I've taken them under my wing. I know enough, but still I use advice I've gotten from folks like IraqGunz, Templar, Dave and the rest of the staff, IPs and SMEs.
People who come in here and get all butthurt because their Bushy or DPMS gets shit-canned around these parts are ridiculous. Nothing quite like folks brandishing the e-peen because we don't like DPMS on M4C...
H
Here's something to help the OP:
I bought a Vortex StrikeFire red/green dot sight. It kept flickering on and off when I was shooting. Vortex has an awesome customer service set to go along with their lifetime warranty. They sent me a box with pre-paid postage. About a week after I sent it back, I got a new unit with details about what they did to fix it. Since then, it has been a pretty groovy little sight. I don't use it for anything really rough, just my normal drills at the range. Over the last 2 month I've put about 1500 rounds though with no troubles. I trusted it enough to use it at a tactical rifle/competition.
It failed on me. I called the company back, explained what happened, and they sent me another pre-paid box to send it back again. No questions asked.
Great customer service isn't important if the product fails when you need it most. I'd use Vortex for the range toys, but I won't use it when the zombies come over the hill. or when something goes bump in the middle of the night.
I personally can only vouch for having bad experiences with two manufacturers, rock river arms and bushmaster. My (ex) rra failed miserably at a shooting class in vegas due to piss poor cq and seemingly lack of effort on the part of rra to do anything proven such as chrome lining or properly staking keys and castle nuts or even having a true 556 chamber. And with bushy just large variances from gun to gun and oversized gas ports. I believe it has been stated enough to go with proven brands such as bravo company, colt, daniel defense, kac, LMT, or noveske.
Magic_Salad0892
09-04-11, 03:34
I didn't listen to Markm about LWRCi, and do regret it.
Not because my samples were crappy, but because I would have saved thousands.
Hard to believe it but Blackwater (Xe) actually uses Bushmaster Semis in Iraq.... part of the wrongful death lawsuit about the 4 guys that were at Fallujah were about the Bushmaster Semis (the contractors were promished full auto capable rifles).
Anyway, I would avoid BM like the plague.
-Tom
That is not entirely correct. They used them in the early days in Iraq on certain contracts. However, once they started on the DoS contracts they used (GFE) Government Furnished Equipment which were Colt M4's.
They only had them on limited contracts in country. You have understand that in that time frame we were fighting two different wars and Colts' priority was fulfilling U.S MIL contracts.
Hard to believe it but Blackwater (Xe) actually uses Bushmaster Semis in Iraq.... part of the wrongful death lawsuit about the 4 guys that were at Fallujah were about the Bushmaster Semis (the contractors were promished full auto capable rifles).
Anyway, I would avoid BM like the plague.
-Tom
hotrodder636
09-04-11, 14:05
These threads never go well for seveal reasons.
The first main reason is that MOST PEOPLE have experience with ONE or TWO AR's. They also tend to have very low round counts with little to now training school experience.
The second reason is that most people are married to their purchase. They often suffer from "Malfunction Amnesia" and cannot remember their weapon ever having a problem.
People would be wise to realize that not all opinions are equal. Meaning that you could have someone like IZGunz (professional armorer) that has seen more guns than 90% of the M4C members VS a guy that owns ONE AR.
I will stay away from poo-pooing any certain brand and just tell people to buy from KNOWN QUALITY Companies. Some of these companies would be BCM, DD, Colt, KAC, Noveske, LMT, etc.
C4
I agree, the above stated may very well be the case....most of the time.
The second time I went out to shoot my first AR, a DPMS AP4, I had a F2F nearly every three round....regardless of magazine I was using. When I bought my DPMS, more than 6 years ago, I knew pretty much nothing about ARs. However after reading forums such as this with the knowledge and advice and expertise that is within, I have easily been able to research and make my next two AR purchases with no questions, no regrets. I have ordered a KAC SR15 and will be getting a Noveske MK 18 shortly.
I appreciate all the intel and knowledge found here and look forward to more. As for my current DPMS, I have decided to turn it into a 'learning and testing mule' to more familiarize myself with the platform.
EnibraCFourM: The only thing that keeps me shaking my head at this whole thing is that for bit extra, a fraction of the overall cost one can purchase an exponentially better rifle. I agree, and I think a lot of it has to do with impulse. Last week I decided to buy an LMT and started by asking for a good place to buy it, but ordered it anyway before I got any responses. As a result, I probably paid a little too much, but at least I'd done the research right on "which," if not the "where." It's just hard for someone who doesn't follow the discussions to know which of the models which are apparently identical to know which model is which.
My only other AR was a BM, back 10 years ago, which I bought because the internet common knowledge at the time said it was "the closest I could get to Mil-Spec." Times change, and so do contractors and subcontractors, so today's lists of good and bad might swap out in another 10 years. All we can do is make the best call we can at the time. I learned my lesson eight years ago when common knowledge didn't fit my needs - I hated the HBAR I owned, which was pretty commonly bought back then. FWIW.
How about maintaining a list with a list of makes used by name competitors or recommended by carbine classes? Something like the "What's in his bag?" done for PGA golfers, for instance. It might work for awhile until sponsor money followed the recommendations - golf clubs the pros use are nothing like the same name you'd buy in the store.
I agree, and I think a lot of it has to do with impulse. Last week I decided to buy an LMT and started by asking for a good place to buy it, but ordered it anyway before I got any responses. As a result, I probably paid a little too much, but at least I'd done the research right on "which," if not the "where." It's just hard for someone who doesn't follow the discussions to know which of the models which are apparently identical to know which model is which.
I purchased an LMT upper a couple weeks ago and i am extremely satisfied with my purchase and have never been happier. Congrats on the purchase and don't worry about the price; personally i'm ok paying a little more for the peace of mind of buying quality.
Bushmaster, the charging handle latch stuck so badly right out of the box, I had to file the latch until it operated smoothly. I thought, if they can't get that right, what else isn't right?
variablebinary
09-04-11, 23:21
All the brands perform the same if you only shoot 100 rounds a year.
The more you shoot, the more little things matter
I know people that go balls out on guns and gear and I'll ask them...
"Did you go shooting?"
No
"Did you go shooting?"
No
"Did you go shooting?"
No
Really, if you don't ever shoot, WTF does it matter what brand you buy. Get your DPMS, hang it on the wall and pose in the mirror with a hard on for a few hours. Save yourself the research time and money.
That said, if you plan on putting SEVERAL THOUSAND rounds through your gun a year, it might make sense to step your game up and not buy garbage.
evenodds20
09-04-11, 23:43
Im wondering with all the negative talk about the DPMS rifles, is there anything i can do, short of selling it that will improve the functionality of it? i have the LRT SASS (308) with no rounds through it yet. mainly because i want to put good ammo through it to break it in. i probably will only put 1000 rounds a year in it if that. it was purchased to be more of a competition on a budget rifle. is there anything i can improve on to fix they low QC issues yall speak about?
I don't gun fight for a living. Guns aren't my profesion. But like has been said, I gun should be built for fighting first.... Anything else is a bonus.
Would you want a seat belt, air bag, brakes or fire extiguisher made by UTG or Bushmaste, DPMS ?? I wouldn't.
I cringe when I see anything sold as "Survival gear" in a Cheaper Than Dirt catologue that is known shit !!! Some dumb ass is going to buy into the marketing and get left blowing in the wind.
A firearm shoukd be something taken seriously. Do your homework and taake it and its intended purposes seriously. Other than that we all know around here which brands blow.
I have only worked on the harrington & richardson, GM, and colts! We always seem to have faluires to feed or short stokes pop up on us during quals! It has always been the Colts to crap out!
Interesting.
FYI- Failures to feed can often be attributed to the magazine.
Short stroking indicates lack of maintenance. So next time it happens why don't you ask when was the last time that the weapon was inspected.
All AR's and anything else for that matter will FAIL if not properly maintained. That is much different from a failure because someone manufactured a piece of shit from the get go.
I have only worked on the harrington & richardson, GM, and colts! We always seem to have faluires to feed or short stokes pop up on us during quals! It has always been the Colts to crap out!
I went shhoting this weekend with a friend of mine, and I he was shooting his rifle with a bcg made by DPMS and I was shooting my rifle I built with a LMT bcg. Needless to say, my rifle shot very well, but his started short-stroking and would not cycle. I took apart his bcg, and one of the screws on the gas key had sheered away. While examining both my LMT and DPMS bcg, I saw that LMT properly staked the bcg, while the DPMS bcg had not been staked properly, hence the sheered screw on the gas key. I also that the extractor was the old style type of extractor spring while mine had the newer power extractor spring with black o-ring.
I asked my buddy how much he paid for the bcg, and he said he spent about $100 USD for a DPMS semi bcg. My LMT full auto bcg was $130 USD. Now he has to buy a new bcg and spend more money on his build. The lesson for him was to not buy cheap vital equipment such as a bcg
Interesting.
FYI- Failures to feed can often be attributed to the magazine.
Short stroking indicates lack of maintenance. So next time it happens why don't you ask when was the last time that the weapon was inspected.
All AR's and anything else for that matter will FAIL if not properly maintained. That is much different from a failure because someone manufactured a piece of shit from the get go.
Right. USGI mags are cheap and need replaced often.
Even if you buy a Colt, you STILL have to do PM's on them.
C4
wetidlerjr
09-05-11, 08:25
...Short stroking indicates lack of maintenance. So next time it happens why don't you ask when was the last time that the weapon was inspected...
Any other causes ? :cool:
ParkisMaximus
09-05-11, 09:02
I've got to defend the colt a little bit. While it is not my preffered carbine, it has never failed me when I've needed it.
I'm in Iraq and have been using the same m4 for the past 3-4 years. There is no telling how many rounds have been through that barrel, but for the a mount of abuse I put her through (airborne infantry), I've got no complaints.
As long as you clean and maintain your ar there should not be to much to complain about.
With that said, on the civilian world, colt would not be my first choice. I really haven't decided which manufacture to go with, which is why I'm here.
I've been looking at the ruger sr556c. Anyone have experience with her? I own a ruger pistol and I'm very happy with it.
Thank yall for yalls time.
A search quickly showed this thread for the Ruger SR556:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31110
Short stroking is generally indicative of a gas system failure. Assuming that it was assembled correctly from the beginning with quality parts.
Generally it has been my experience that most military weapons are maintained to the minimum. Most small arms personnel won't or can't think outside of the box either because they lack experience or they cannot deviate from the manual.
The first place I look is at the gas rings and bolt carrrier key. If that doesn't solve the problem then it's the gas tube.
Any other causes ? :cool:
brzusa.1911
09-05-11, 12:45
CMMG - I have their .22 kit and while this one works fine, I had a few issues with when I first bought. The kit was out of spec and did not fit well on my upper, I also believe the kit put some marks on the cam pin recess area in the upper receiver assembly, which they denied saying it was normal wear from cam pin. I sent the kit in with my upper, customer service was not good to communicate, and while there they were kind enough to put a big ding on my Troy rear sights. I will never buy another CMMG product. At least the kit is fine now, I believe they exchanged and tested this time.
I will stick with DD and or BCM for all my AR needs.
DeltaSierra
09-05-11, 13:33
I've been looking at the ruger sr556c. Anyone have experience with her? I own a ruger pistol and I'm very happy with it.
I would NOT recommend the Ruger SR556.
It is one of the worst rifles that I have owned, and to be honest, there is nothing special about it.
The rifle that I had started chewing up the inside of the upper receiver within about 500 rounds... It literally had a serious case of carrier tilt - to the left.
I didn't get any pictures of the rifle before I got rid of it though (I should have, if nothing else so that I could have posted them here.)
The rifle is terribly front heavy, even without adding any accessories.
Looking back, I should have just saved the money and bought a BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske or LMT to begin with.
underwoodbitsandspurs
09-05-11, 13:57
I've got to defend the colt a little bit. While it is not my preffered carbine, it has never failed me when I've needed it.
I'm in Iraq and have been using the same m4 for the past 3-4 years. There is no telling how many rounds have been through that barrel, but for the a mount of abuse I put her through (airborne infantry), I've got no complaints.
As long as you clean and maintain your ar there should not be to much to complain about.
With that said, on the civilian world, colt would not be my first choice. I really haven't decided which manufacture to go with, which is why I'm here.
I've been looking at the ruger sr556c. Anyone have experience with her? I own a ruger pistol and I'm very happy with it.
Thank yall for yalls time.
Why would a Colt not be your first choice?
I have only a little time to play with the FN's but they seem to go bang every time. The only problem i have ever seen was one couldn't be zeroed. Has any one else have any experience with the FN's?
wetidlerjr
09-05-11, 15:04
Short stroking is generally indicative of a gas system failure. Assuming that it was assembled correctly from the beginning with quality parts.
Generally it has been my experience that most military weapons are maintained to the minimum. Most small arms personnel won't or can't think outside of the box either because they lack experience or they cannot deviate from the manual.
The first place I look is at the gas rings and bolt carrrier key. If that doesn't solve the problem then it's the gas tube.
OK Thanks ! :cool:
NC Star optics have to be one of the worst investments i've ever made. Just wanted something to slap on top of my new and 1st ar. I purchased it at a gunshow and was geeked after i mounted it, but took it to the range, wouldn't hold a zero and the Illum would flicker back and forth between red and green. I keep it on top of the safe to remind myself of the stupid purchase. Always make informed decisions when it comes to optics and/or firearms.
As someone who actually is using a High Standard/Interarms as a go-to rifle... I could never recommend them. I had to go through so much trouble with them getting the rifle fixed from being defective out of the box that it wasn't worth it. They were slow to work with me, and never did fix all the issues. I've had to do a lot of work to it myself.
They're claiming 4150 barrel steel, and a 158 Carpenter bolt... so they're not all bad (if what they say is true). Their rifle as it came from the factory, though, had so much wrong with it it was shameful.
But... try finding a decent company making an M16A4 clone w/ A2 handguards... not exactly a common product these days.
DeltaSierra
09-05-11, 18:35
But... try finding a decent company making an M16A4 clone w/ A2 handguards... not exactly a common product these days.
Did you try BCM?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-rifle-s/146.htm
DiabhailGadhar
09-05-11, 19:25
http://autoweapons.com/photos07/sep/coltupp.html
I'm pretty sure this is what you're looking for :D.
As for my "DONT BUY FROM THIS COMPANY" I have and shoot a Spikes Tactical I WILL NEVER DO BUSINESS WITH THEM AGAIN! now I haven't had any problems with my build, but their customer service was bar none the worst I've ever dealt with. Incompetence has to be some where as a prerequisite on the job application...for a COMPLETELY LENGTHY justification to my opinion https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75640.
Now on a more positive note regarding IG, he has without a doubt taught me more about the AR platform then I knew in my 11+ years messing with them at work. You do need thick skin around here but that, IMHO, is to weed out the people who truly have a desire to become educated vs. the people who are to justify some unfounded claim that x rifle company is the shit. for those of you that are here to cry..STFU, GROW TFU and use the search button...there are several...:p
But... try finding a decent company making an M16A4 clone w/ A2 handguards... not exactly a common product these days.
Did you try BCM?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-rifle-s/146.htm
Even now, they're not taking orders.... Summer 2011 they were supposed to resume. Summer's over as far as I'm concerned. If you can't build the product, it makes it really hard for me to buy it. BCM makes a great product, but that doesn't help me if it isn't available month after month.
That, and the MagPul trigger guard is dumb, and I'd have to swap out their charging handle for the normal one. (Minor complaint, but it is still a complaint.)
...... and I'd have to swap out their charging handle for the normal one. (Minor complaint, but it is still a complaint.)
I'll gladly send you two regular charging handles in exchange for a BCF Gunfighter. ;)
I'll gladly send you two regular charging handles in exchange for a BCF Gunfighter. ;)
I'd make that deal. I can't stand all the aftermarket stuff. There's very little I haven't tried, and even less that I think is worth the "upgrade" even if it was free.
I like stock rifles...
DeltaSierra
09-05-11, 21:49
Even now, they're not taking orders.... Summer 2011 they were supposed to resume. Summer's over as far as I'm concerned. If you can't build the product, it makes it really hard for me to buy it. BCM makes a great product, but that doesn't help me if it isn't available month after month.
That, and the MagPul trigger guard is dumb, and I'd have to swap out their charging handle for the normal one. (Minor complaint, but it is still a complaint.)
Lets see....
Order up one of the lower halves with an A2 stock (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/bcm%20order%20form%20vltor.pdf) and one of the 20 inch barreled uppers (yes, I know that they are out of stock right now, but they were in stock a couple weeks ago. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm) and you have a pretty nice rifle at a good price...
Lets see....
Order up one of the lower halves with an A2 stock (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/bcm%20order%20form%20vltor.pdf) and one of the 20 inch barreled uppers (yes, I know that they are out of stock right now, but they were in stock a couple weeks ago. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm) and you have a pretty nice rifle at a good price...
I'm not 21, so I can't order a lower.
BCM is also Teflon coating over their anodizing last time I checked, which I dislike. I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to "standardize" on a high gloss Teflon finish. I prefer just matte hardcoat anodizing.
Yes, I'm picky.
DeltaSierra
09-05-11, 22:42
I'm not 21, so I can't order a lower.
See this post by Grant: http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1062502&postcount=35
I'm not 21, so I can't order a lower.
BCM is also Teflon coating over their anodizing last time I checked, which I dislike. I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to "standardize" on a high gloss Teflon finish. I prefer just matte hardcoat anodizing.
Yes, I'm picky.
So you're under 21 but there isn't much you haven't tried, magpul trigger gaurds are dumb, you would rather have a GI charging handle than a Gunfighter, teflon coating bothers you, and you are trying to buy an M16A4 clone.
Different strokes...
ParkisMaximus
09-06-11, 04:36
A search quickly showed this thread for the Ruger SR556:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31110
as im sure that a search would also show a post for each and everyone of the manufacturers stated.
ParkisMaximus
09-06-11, 04:38
Why would a Colt not be your first choice?
Because I've used one at work for so long. I'd like a newer platform with a piston system
FYI- You can't order a STRIPPED lower. A lower with a tube and stock already assembled is different.
I'm not 21, so I can't order a lower.
BCM is also Teflon coating over their anodizing last time I checked, which I dislike. I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to "standardize" on a high gloss Teflon finish. I prefer just matte hardcoat anodizing.
Yes, I'm picky.
How do you feel that YOU will benefit from a piston?
Because I've used one at work for so long. I'd like a newer platform with a piston system
mattlove444
09-06-11, 05:40
Olympic Arms, DPMS, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, Rock River Arms, Les Baer, Model 1 Sales, Blackthorne, High Standard.
I could go on and on but all of these companies have something in common. A lack of quality control, use of sub standard materials, and a failure to meet, much less exceed, a minimum set of requirements set fourth.
Les baer? Why did you lump Baer in with all of these companies? I'm not criticizing, but rather wondering. I have a 1911 from them and it's been nothing but perfect.
scoutfsu99
09-06-11, 05:58
Les baer? Why did you lump Baer in with all of these companies? I'm not criticizing, but rather wondering. I have a 1911 from them and it's been nothing but perfect.
His 1911's may be one story but his rifles are horrible and the customer service sucks.
justin_247
09-06-11, 05:59
I have only a little time to play with the FN's but they seem to go bang every time. The only problem i have ever seen was one couldn't be zeroed. Has any one else have any experience with the FN's?
I assume you're talking about an issued-weapon? FN doesn't sell complete ARs to civilians, and the individual components they rebrand for other companies are very limited, as well.
Les baer? Why did you lump Baer in with all of these companies? I'm not criticizing, but rather wondering. I have a 1911 from them and it's been nothing but perfect.
This is a thread about ARs, not 1911s.
Even now, they're not taking orders.... Summer 2011 they were supposed to resume. Summer's over as far as I'm concerned. If you can't build the product, it makes it really hard for me to buy it. BCM makes a great product, but that doesn't help me if it isn't available month after month.
That, and the MagPul trigger guard is dumb, and I'd have to swap out their charging handle for the normal one. (Minor complaint, but it is still a complaint.)
Uhm, we have BCM rifles in stock (at least 10 right now). ;)
C4
I'm not 21, so I can't order a lower.
BCM is also Teflon coating over their anodizing last time I checked, which I dislike. I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to "standardize" on a high gloss Teflon finish. I prefer just matte hardcoat anodizing.
Yes, I'm picky.
You don't have to be 21 to order a complete lower (FYI). 18.
Picky is not the correct work. It starts with the letter "A" and sounds like ANAL.
C4
brzusa.1911
09-06-11, 11:15
Never mind, I mixed ARs and 1911s. I understand this is about ARs so I removed my comments.
What about PSA? I was thinking about going with an upper and lower from them as my first AR.
I see alot of hate towards DPMS, but its mainly towards there uppers and BCG..
what about there lowers? what in general is bad about those? I got my entire for the price of a lower so i got a DPMS as it was somewhat cheap but not the cheapest.
I see alot of hate towards DPMS, but its mainly towards there uppers and BCG..
what about there lowers? what in general is bad about those? I got my entire for the price of a lower so i got a DPMS as it was somewhat cheap but not the cheapest.
DMPS has poor quality control. Their lower parts usually have fire control pins that break. A lower receiver is not a big deal as long as it is in spec and all the hole line up.
DMPS has poor quality control. Their lower parts usually have fire control pins that break. A lower receiver is not a big deal as long as it is in spec and all the hole line up.
seems to be good so far, havent had any issues with it. now, assuming i swapped the fire control pins out, would my lower be...."acceptable"?
What about PSA? I was thinking about going with an upper and lower from them as my first AR.
PSA seems to be good to go. They use FN parts. They're a bit too new to give a positive thumbs up just yet. In my opinion.
I'd make that deal. I can't stand all the aftermarket stuff. There's very little I haven't tried, and even less that I think is worth the "upgrade" even if it was free.
I like stock rifles...
I'm not 21, so I can't order a lower.
BCM is also Teflon coating over their anodizing last time I checked, which I dislike. I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to "standardize" on a high gloss Teflon finish. I prefer just matte hardcoat anodizing.
Yes, I'm picky.
:confused:
mattlove444
09-06-11, 19:51
This is a thread about ARs, not 1911s.
I know it is. I was just saying that his CS is so good with them and I was wondering why it's not as good for his AR sector. I'll just get a LaRue
You guys should wait for the new Louis Vuitton Tactical AR! LoL
CoryCop25, thanks for the heads up on my question!
would you guys reccomend buying a new lower or will my dpms handle fine? I did read through here and I'm not laying down thousands of rounds a year, maybe 1000 a year.
si i'm kinda in between the two catagories
DiabhailGadhar
09-06-11, 22:21
If you're not betting your life on it... shoot, clean, repeat learn what you like and dont like ...when/if it breaks replace/upgrade as needed...
if you are, look elsewhere..I'm sure with some reading you can figure out where...;)
would you guys reccomend buying a new lower or will my dpms handle fine? I did read through here and I'm not laying down thousands of rounds a year, maybe 1000 a year.
si i'm kinda in between the two catagories
Glad to know I didn't waste my money. I did a bit of research before buying my M&P15A (admittedly not on this forum, hadn't discovered it yet) I knew it wasn't a top tier rifle, but since I'm a civilian shooter I felt it would be a good first AR. I only paid $850 shipped + ffl transfer fees. Lots of great info on this site.
Personaly I, and I think many others, consider the M&P 15 to be the minimum acceptable quality AR. As such I have recommended the S&W to many begining to venture into the AR system as the minimum choice.
I grew up during the time period that BM was considered one of the best available. I had a BM in my safe when I discovered this site and saw first hand the lack of QC; zero staking on the castle nut, nearly non-existant and useless staking on the carrier key, 1/9 twist barrels, extremely heavy and gritty FCG, mis-aligned sight height on their flat top carbines. Initially it was a hard pill to swallow to hear my BM was a POS, however, having one in hand and seeing the above problems quickly convienced me that I truly did have a POS in hand.
For those individuals that continue to insist their POS carbine is "just as good as", then D Nile isn't just a river in Egypt anymore.
If you're not betting your life on it... shoot, clean, repeat learn what you like and dont like ...when/if it breaks replace/upgrade as needed...
if you are, look elsewhere..I'm sure with some reading you can figure out where...;)
oh believe me, I know what my next rifle is..I've been eye balling the Daniel defense rifles for awhile now..
I have played around with various brands over my time of living here next to blackwater, shot many bushmasters, never had a problem, shot rock river, and had two jams in one mag, so i'm done with them.
but the best by far was DD, we had one of the instructors live with us(my mom worked out there in range depo) and he had DD's, usually he had 4 with him at one time, and I loved the feel of them.
now I just have to save 1300$ :eek:
PSA seems to be good to go. They use FN parts. They're a bit too new to give a positive thumbs up just yet. In my opinion.
Yea I wouldn't 'avoid' them but this is still unproven ground for them. I'll definitely update on mine as I'm able to test and get it to some classes.
Airborne12b
09-07-11, 14:58
I have only a little time to play with the FN's but they seem to go bang every time. The only problem i have ever seen was one couldn't be zeroed. Has any one else have any experience with the FN's?
Of the 3 or 4 I was issued they all produced perfect groups. Never had an issue of any kind with any of them.
Les baer? Why did you lump Baer in with all of these companies? I'm not criticizing, but rather wondering. I have a 1911 from them and it's been nothing but perfect.
That's like saying, me, as a pilot should make a great racecar driver, or vice versa,because the skills are similar. Maybe so, but not likely. From the Les Baer rifles I've seen, both at gun shows and on the net, as a rifle maker, Les makes a great 1911. He should stick to it.
TonyTacoma
09-07-11, 15:41
I'll add POF
Is this whole thread not regurgitation of the same shit that's been discussed ad nauseum on M4C for years, and in a less-organized manner? :rolleyes:
Is this whole thread not regurgitation of the same shit that's been discussed ad nauseum on M4C for years, and in a less-organized manner? :rolleyes:
Please read my OP. This was not how I intended this thread to go. I expected a compiled list of products to avoid AND WHY. Something that a new member could reference and not get butt hurt when he/she posted a pic of his/her brand spankin new XYZ brand AR and it gets bashed and they get a bad first impression of this Forum.
ParkisMaximus
09-07-11, 20:30
How do you feel that YOU will benefit from a piston?
I've never had jamming issues with my m4 from it not being cleaned properly. I understand that general maintenance is reguired. But the piston system is more efficient in my eyes. It would keep the carbon build up to a minimum,especially those harder to reach places.
I've shot alot of 5.56 in my 7 years in the army. I know that a piston system will have a lot less carbon than a gas operated system. I don't necessarily need one but by getting a piston system would in my opinion keep the wear and tear down.
I've spent some time in an armament shop and I'm a qualified armour in the army (not at all saying I'm an expert compared to you from what I hear) but I know my way around an my and other weapons.
To answer your question directly, I guess it wouldn't benifit me all that much. Its just something I've wanted for some time.
,
Failure2Stop
09-07-11, 20:33
Its just something I've wanted for some time.
I would recommend just going with this answer.
At least it's fact-based.
TonyTacoma
09-07-11, 20:43
Why's that?
Rifle issues, customer service issues, proprietary parts issues
RogerinTPA
09-07-11, 21:34
Why's that?
Each time I've been in a carbine course where a POF was on the line, it was the first to break, then continued to break, throughout the class.
Rifle issues, customer service issues, proprietary parts issues
Each time I've been in a carbine course where a POF was on the line, it was the first to break, then continued to break, throughout the class.
Thanks guys. For the price they want for those I'd be pissed. Not that in this industry price is always indicative of quality...
justin_247
09-08-11, 06:46
PSA seems to be good to go. They use FN parts. They're a bit too new to give a positive thumbs up just yet. In my opinion.
In the interests of accuracy, I think you're being a bit too broad here. PSA supposedly uses FN barrels for some of their uppers, but there is no evidence they use any other FN parts.
PSA supposedly uses FN barrels for some of their uppers, but there is no evidence they use any other FN parts.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/8f67ffb0.jpg
They do. But the receiver is not FN...all I know is it has an Anchor Harvey forging mark. No idea who took the raw forging from there.
Airborne12b
09-08-11, 09:35
I've never had jamming issues with my m4 from it not being cleaned properly. I understand that general maintenance is reguired. But the piston system is more efficient in my eyes. It would keep the carbon build up to a minimum,especially those harder to reach places.
I've shot alot of 5.56 in my 7 years in the army. I know that a piston system will have a lot less carbon than a gas operated system. I don't necessarily need one but by getting a piston system would in my opinion keep the wear and tear down.
I've spent some time in an armament shop and I'm a qualified armour in the army (not at all saying I'm an expert compared to you from what I hear) but I know my way around an my and other weapons.
To answer your question directly, I guess it wouldn't benifit me all that much. Its just something I've wanted for some time.
,
I think in order for a piston system to work right you either have to redesign an upper to make it octagonal, with a corresponding bcg, or put rails in the upper. As it stands people are having carrier tilt issues leading to premature wear/failure. ask of the other piston guns that have ben proven or over decades of use such as the FAL, AK, FNC, G3, et cetera all have a rail system to prevent the carrier from axial movement.
I think people just need to understand that there are difference in quality levels. I would rate it as standard commercial such as S&W, RRA, etc...the big name groups. Some of the big names groups I would rated as substandard. Then there is high quality Commercial which I would only have Noveske in this group and some may consider this brand to even be rated as high as mil-spec. And last there is Mil-spec quality ( Colt, BCM, DD, LMT).
People get their feelings hurt when they buy a new AR that they are proud of and then they hear the AR they bought is substandard and poor quality.
I have owned several of the big named AR's. I thought they were great because I never knew better. Then in the academy we had Mil-spec guns and my view changed. There is a reason the State of Texas uses Colt AR's. When My life depends on a gun, I want it to work. Since then I switched to LMT, BCM, and DD. I can see a large difference in quality and will only stay with the Mil spec Ar's. I can say I know a few of the area PD's can carry "what brand they want to" and some officers carry some of the big named less know quality AR's. To me that is scary.
Nephrology
09-08-11, 10:23
All of this is why I stay out of the AR game.
I am of limited funds (professional student/researcher does not a millionaire make) and, unlike many people I know, I am not willing to sacrifice quality for quantity.
I could go out and buy a 650 dollar DPMS and then have to buy it all over again later, or simply tolerate how terribly out of spec the gun is -
or, I could use my money to buy quality gear for my pistols, gobs of ammo to put through them, spare mags and JHPs for self defense, money for match fees and practice time.
I am not LE/MIL. Handguns are my first line of defense, though I have a bullet proof 870 Wingmaster in case I need something with more oomph. They are far more cost efficient for someone of my needs, and while I certainly want a good carbine one day, I am not going to spend my money on junk when I could instead invest time, money, and energy in the gun that I will more likely than not have on me when the balloon goes up.
Magic_Salad0892
09-08-11, 10:34
I've never had jamming issues with my m4 from it not being cleaned properly. I understand that general maintenance is reguired. But the piston system is more efficient in my eyes. It would keep the carbon build up to a minimum,especially those harder to reach places.
I've shot alot of 5.56 in my 7 years in the army. I know that a piston system will have a lot less carbon than a gas operated system. I don't necessarily need one but by getting a piston system would in my opinion keep the wear and tear down.
I've spent some time in an armament shop and I'm a qualified armour in the army (not at all saying I'm an expert compared to you from what I hear) but I know my way around an my and other weapons.
To answer your question directly, I guess it wouldn't benifit me all that much. Its just something I've wanted for some time.
,
As the former owner of several piston rifles, I have noticed no decrease in weapon reliability by switching to DI systems.
LWRCi's have great barrels though. CHF, 1:7, Nitrided, super accurate. Not worth the piston though.
Please read my OP. This was not how I intended this thread to go. I expected a compiled list of products to avoid AND WHY. Something that a new member could reference and not get butt hurt when he/she posted a pic of his/her brand spankin new XYZ brand AR and it gets bashed and they get a bad first impression of this Forum.
Ok, let me rephrase....entire thread except for the OP. :D
When I worked at the range, we had a High Standard DI M4, and we had an LWRC rifle. (Among others, but for this discussion I'll only mention these two.)
The issues I had with both...
The High Standard wore out a barrel once, after a very high round count. The firing pin became so dull it would sometimes fail to fire, and the extractor pin broke twice. The rifle seemed a little bit over-gassed to me, although not by much, which may have contributed to the extractor pin breaking with what seemed to be regularity. (I'd have added a heavier buffer, but the company said as long as I could keep it operational they weren't going to fund a replacement.) For those curious, the rifle kept working with a broken extractor pin both times... I discovered it during cleaning.
The LWRC ran well. It didn't get shot nearly as much since it wasn't full auto... but after about a year on the range, the piston got stuck to the rear and wouldn't allow the bolt carrier to move forward all the way. Carrier tilt was there, but not bad at all.
Neither system is perfect... DI guns do have some issues, but pistons aren't without flaws either.
In the interests of accuracy, I think you're being a bit too broad here. PSA supposedly uses FN barrels for some of their uppers, but there is no evidence they use any other FN parts.
I can't speak for them other than from what I have read here or on their site. I was under the impression the the barrel and bcg were fn.
Bad Medicine
09-08-11, 12:48
Why's that?
Not to mention extremely heavy, and renowned for piston tilt! Just walking around with it makes you sound like you have a set of janitors keys in your pocket.
Airborne12b
09-08-11, 13:23
Firing pins are dull, they shouldn't be sharp, so I guess I don't know what you are talking about here with that point.
When I worked at the range, we had a High Standard DI M4, and we had an LWRC rifle. (Among others, but for this discussion I'll only mention these two.)
The issues I had with both...
The High Standard wore out a barrel once, after a very high round count. The firing pin became so dull it would sometimes fail to fire, and the extractor pin broke twice. The rifle seemed a little bit over-gassed to me, although not by much, which may have contributed to the extractor pin breaking with what seemed to be regularity. (I'd have added a heavier buffer, but the company said as long as I could keep it operational they weren't going to fund a replacement.) For those curious, the rifle kept working with a broken extractor pin both times... I discovered it during cleaning.
The LWRC ran well. It didn't get shot nearly as much since it wasn't full auto... but after about a year on the range, the piston got stuck to the rear and wouldn't allow the bolt carrier to move forward all the way. Carrier tilt was there, but not bad at all.
Neither system is perfect... DI guns do have some issues, but pistons aren't without flaws either.
I appreciate your honesty in why you want one. For the record I may get another piston (LMT type?) for 100% suppressed use only. Maybe if I win the lottery I will get a full auto M16 and then throw the piston on there. Then I would really get my monies' worth.
I've never had jamming issues with my m4 from it not being cleaned properly. I understand that general maintenance is reguired. But the piston system is more efficient in my eyes. It would keep the carbon build up to a minimum,especially those harder to reach places.
I've shot alot of 5.56 in my 7 years in the army. I know that a piston system will have a lot less carbon than a gas operated system. I don't necessarily need one but by getting a piston system would in my opinion keep the wear and tear down.
I've spent some time in an armament shop and I'm a qualified armour in the army (not at all saying I'm an expert compared to you from what I hear) but I know my way around an my and other weapons.
To answer your question directly, I guess it wouldn't benifit me all that much. Its just something I've wanted for some time.
,
Magic_Salad0892
09-08-11, 15:40
I appreciate your honesty in why you want one. For the record I may get another piston (LMT type?) for 100% suppressed use only. Maybe if I win the lottery I will get a full auto M16 and then throw the piston on there. Then I would really get my monies' worth.
If you're going to do a 100% suppressed gun, I think DI would still be better. Just get a 20'' BCM barrel, have ADCO cut it, port it uber small.
That'd be better than a piston. IMO.
Then there is high quality Commercial which I would only have Noveske in this group and some may consider this brand to even be rated as high as mil-spec. And last there is Mil-spec quality ( Colt, BCM, DD, LMT).
I've never heard this view point on noveske before, care to elaborate? Iv only heard good things, minus the price tag they carry
Iraqgunz: I may get another piston (LMT type?) for 100% suppressed use only. Personally, I'd never consider giving Iraqgunz advice. I'd rather know why he thinks that way. Iraqgunz?
Rob's "new" chart, I feel, goes a long way to achieving the goal I think you were attempting to achieve. It is answered by the manufactors themselves and is more technical in it's scope.
I'll say!
As a 100% neophyte I've found it pretty clear which manufacturers are M4C-approved, and the more I read the more I understand "why".
The chart is an invaluable resource for me. Even if I don't know what 90% of it means, it helps me to figure out what I need to research to learn what I should look for in a quality rifle.
I know I won't go wrong with any of the G2G manufacturers--now it's just a matter of saving my pennies, narrowing down the best options (for me), and finding a deal.
18th century muskets don't do much for me. It's not really about the gas port. It's about the overall maintenance factor. When I compared my last piston upper to a DI when being shot suppressed I could see a difference. I did a simple wipe down and reassembly in about 5 minutes and was good to go.
LAV told me that in his opinion as well as others I have asked (it's been oft stated here as well) the only people who really benefit at all from pistons are full auto and suppressor users who don't want to spend alot of time cleaning.
Knowing me, I probably won't do it and will just stick with a DI gun. Although I have been contemplating an AK purchase lately.
If you're going to do a 100% suppressed gun, I think DI would still be better. Just get a 20'' BCM barrel, have ADCO cut it, port it uber small.
That'd be better than a piston. IMO.
bondmid003
12-26-11, 23:04
Every FN rifle I've ever picked up went bang when I wanted it to. That said most issues with FN rifles I've seen are from crappy mags the Marine Corps likes to issue. It's a shame FN doesn't make an AR for the general public
A person searches, reads, then finally dials into what companies and retailers are tier one.
Then you go to their websites only to find out that in addition to the top of the line recommended products, they are also selling those very flavors that you might have previously read about being problematic/avoid/will cost more to make reliable than if you bought the other brand to begin with. That is presuming you also searched for items to avoid, which many don't.
Hey, look, I bought tier one Xxxx upper with what I now know is a bottom feeder handguard that they offered as a package.
- OR -
Went to Xxxx site to get everything for my first AR build because everyone here says you can't go wrong, but they are also selling the very stuff everyone here tells me to avoid.
Can someone explain that one for me?
A person searches, reads, then finally dials into what companies and retailers are tier one.
Then you go to their websites only to find out that in addition to the top of the line recommended products, they are also selling those very flavors that you might have previously read about being problematic/avoid/will cost more to make reliable than if you bought the other brand to begin with. That is presuming you also searched for items to avoid, which many don't.
Hey, look, I bought tier one Xxxx upper with what I now know is a bottom feeder handguard that they offered as a package.
- OR -
Went to Xxxx site to get everything for my first AR build because everyone here says you can't go wrong, but they are also selling the very stuff everyone here tells me to avoid.
Can someone explain that one for me?
I am sorry, but I am not understanding the question.
C4
I am sorry, but I am not understanding the question.
C4
I think what the op means is this: go to a "top tier" web store, they may have some YHM or Spikes accessories. I haven't seen say, a crappy bcg on BCM's sight but they do offer some YHM sights, handgaurds etc. then you have "go to" retailers who tout the quality products but still sell some spikes, dpms, bushy whatever products. But I suppose in the business sense you have to sell what people want and for whatever unfortunate reasons, many want AND look for the dreaded dpms, bushy, undesirable to the informed, products.
Think about the overwhelming number of prospective and current gun owners that, through, through lack of truly objective research, casual or deliberate ignorance, recommendation from a pal, or just plain 'ol cussedness, insist that "THIS or THAT is the combo I want, so GIMMIE!"
Those vendors you're speaking to make the business-smart, pragmatic decision to offer those configurations/items, since those that pick them up aren't too likely to be pushing any envelopes. So, the answer is....math.
Not all vendors can cater to a narrow wedge of the market and survive. They need to offer (gross generalization) low/middle/high end items to ensure that they survive.
Hell, look at the Occupy douches. I read a story of one dippo whose vaginky is all inflamed because he spent (whoops, borrowed...!) $XXX thousand dollars for a master's degree in freaking puppetry and can't fathom why he's unemployed. He educated himself beyond his inteligence and out of a job.
Specialization can be profitable, but overspecialization is best left to monks and insects.
I think what the op means is this: go to a "top tier" web store, they may have some YHM or Spikes accessories. I haven't seen say, a crappy bcg on BCM's sight but they do offer some YHM sights, handgaurds etc. then you have "go to" retailers who tout the quality products but still sell some spikes, dpms, bushy whatever products. But I suppose in the business sense you have to sell what people want and for whatever unfortunate reasons, many want AND look for the dreaded dpms, bushy, undesirable to the informed, products.
I think it is a poor idea to judge an online retailer by the products they sell (especially when they offer high end stuff and middle of the road items).
C4
I think it is a poor idea to judge an online retailer by the products they sell (especially when they offer high end stuff and middle of the road items).
C4
No judgement. Not being critical. I just thought that this is what the op of the previous post was getting at. Retailers of every kind sell many different products of the same type but of different qualities and price range, it's up to the consumer.
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 10:56
FYI- You can't order a STRIPPED lower. A lower with a tube and stock already assembled is different.
No not in MD. You have to have it come with a 20" HBAR barrel(copy of colt hbar) to be sold to someone under 21 and it not be considered a pistol/restricted weapon.
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 11:00
I think what the op means is this: go to a "top tier" web store, they may have some YHM or Spikes accessories. I haven't seen say, a crappy bcg on BCM's sight but they do offer some YHM sights, handgaurds etc. then you have "go to" retailers who tout the quality products but still sell some spikes, dpms, bushy whatever products. But I suppose in the business sense you have to sell what people want and for whatever unfortunate reasons, many want AND look for the dreaded dpms, bushy, undesirable to the informed, products.
Thats largley beacuse many of the people who "push" certain products have a financial stake in the reputation of said products. Its not a secret that some sites are owned and operated by certain people in the industry. The very best advice you will ever get is from someone who has no financial or personal stake in the product. Silencertalk is a great example of places that tend to have skewed opinions. There are others.....
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 11:03
I think it is a poor idea to judge an online retailer by the products they sell (especially when they offer high end stuff and middle of the road items).
C4
If a retailer is not willing to stand by his product and have faith in it, then he shouldnt be selling it. At the very least he shouldnt be bashing said products on the interweb, then pushing them on his website/store.
I work on gov contracts. If I knew a product was defective, do you think I would procure it? Do you think my contracting officers would want to purchase it, knowing its an inferior product. Its all about integrity.
If a retailer is not willing to stand by his product and have faith in it, then he shouldnt be selling it. At the very least he shouldnt be bashing said products on the interweb, then pushing them on his website/store.
I work on gov contracts. If I knew a product was defective, do you think I would procure it? Do you think my contracting officers would want to purchase it, knowing its an inferior product. Its all about integrity.
I am not sure who the retailer is that we are talking about that isn't standing behind the products they sell (sorry).
While this forum caters to the shooters that "get it" when it comes to buying quality, they are the minority. We refer to them as the "twenty percenters." The other "Eighty Percenters" just want to shirt dirt and show their guns to family members during the holidays. This is just fine and IS where the BULK of the consumer base is.
C4
bondmid003
12-27-11, 11:36
If a retailer is not willing to stand by his product and have faith in it, then he shouldnt be selling it. At the very least he shouldnt be bashing said products on the interweb, then pushing them on his website/store.
I work on gov contracts. If I knew a product was defective, do you think I would procure it? Do you think my contracting officers would want to purchase it, knowing its an inferior product. Its all about integrity.
Said retailer is probably just trying to offer a wealth of products to choose from that cater to a broad range of shooters.
For your second comment, I wish that were always the case with government procurements. In theory you are correct but in practice it's not always the case. Some folks in charge of contracts clearly didn't give two craps what the end user thought about the product. The clearest example I can give you is the POS laptops the Marine Corps bought for both unclassified and classified work. Or the geniuses that sold the Navy/Marine Corps on NMCI (Non Mission Capable Internet)
I was referring to federal law. I am not 100% on what communist and semi-communist states do.
No not in MD. You have to have it come with a 20" HBAR barrel(copy of colt hbar) to be sold to someone under 21 and it not be considered a pistol/restricted weapon.
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 12:02
I was referring to federal law. I am not 100% on what communist and semi-communist states do.
Understood.
What I dont understand is why people would even buy a full BCM rifle. They sell just about every combination of uppers and lowers. One you avoid the FET buying them seperate (or atleast 11% on $300 vs $900) and you can get the exact configuration you want.
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 12:04
Said retailer is probably just trying to offer a wealth of products to choose from that cater to a broad range of shooters.
For your second comment, I wish that were always the case with government procurements. In theory you are correct but in practice it's not always the case. Some folks in charge of contracts clearly didn't give two craps what the end user thought about the product. The clearest example I can give you is the POS laptops the Marine Corps bought for both unclassified and classified work. Or the geniuses that sold the Navy/Marine Corps on NMCI (Non Mission Capable Internet)
Gov Procurment is a whole nother level of ****ed up. The fraud, waste, and abuse is sickening. Add to the fact the GSA screws shit up and the preferental selection to Black/Blind/Women/Small business set aside make it basically impossible to get the best product/value for the gov.
Anything Olympic arms. Poorly spec chambers, crappy and sloppy f sight bases.
Bushmaster, poorly spec chambers.
DPMS, Poor gas systems, really bad gas leakage and blow by near the gas block, loose pinned gas blocks, horrible roll pins.
I have owned two RRAs, two OAs, one DPMS, BM, Stag, Spikes, CMMH, and a LWRC (I have been around the out of spec AR spectrum).
Now I am on five BCMs, one LMT, DD, and Colt (I'm a AR hoarder) and never looking back and plan to keep them forever. In fact, the only reason I would get rid of them is to sell them to my buddies to save them the hassle of buying anything else.
There is a reason the State of Texas uses Colt AR's.
For clarification, the State of Texas LEO's are issued Bushmasters, not Colts. I wish they were but they're not...
A bit of a different tack--hopefully people will understand
You can have a good rifle with "inferior" equipment. The single most important thing is to "know your rifle" That is if you have a BM or DPMS but have pushed it to the extreme, then there is no need to be concerned. Any problems will have shown themselves (note: cycling 100 rounds at the range is not "pushing it").
While purchasing a quality brand from a reputable dealer helps insure your chances of success, it is no guarantee. Far too often we think that purchasing is a one and done item. Not so.
This is not so much a defense of the "lower tier" as it is a message that purchasing from top tier is automatic success. Everyone can and has had lemons. It is your responsibility to shakedown your specific gear.
However when people making the decisions on 500 or 1000 rifles--then it becomes a bigger concern. The one-off or two off can get away with a possibly good, but the armory or department won't get that lucky. Its they who really will begin to develop a true picture of which equipment stands out.
I'm sure there will be comments of "You can't polish a turd" but today's state has rifles that could use of lot of polish and fixing. BM and DPMS aren't turds, but they aren't polished either. Beware the man who puts 60,000 rounds through his DPMS. I'll bet it works and parts that don't have been replaced. Fear the idiot with a Noveske Safe Queen.
This should not be construed as a "just as good as" statement. More importantly it is a note to the individual to check and maintain their gear. Lots of folks don't have a choice. If you do, consider carefully--your chances with BM and DPMS or RRA are not as good as with Colt, BCM, DD. But if you are stuck with BM, DPMS, or RRA push you rifle and know it inside and out. You will be better served with that than concerning yourself with a rollmark. Hopefully the experience gained can help influence decision down the road.
charmcitycop
12-27-11, 14:15
.........
...One you avoid the FET buying them seperate...
I keep reading posts about folks avoiding the FET on firearms. While not all moneys go where they are supposed to (we are talking about the Feds here), do people realize that the FET on firearms was lobbied for by sportsmen for such things as creating and maintaining public shooting ranges? Just something to think about
scoutfsu99
12-27-11, 14:44
do people realize that the FET on firearms was lobbied for by sportsmen for such things as creating and maintaining public shooting ranges? Just something to think about
And where does this money go? Is that money tracked at all? There certainly aren't public shooting ranges where I'm from/where I've been. They're all businesses or private clubs.
With respect to retailers selling crappy products (along with the good stuff)...
Once upon a time, I used to be into paintball in a big way. Mind you, this was some time ago.
I poured a ton of cash into (what was, at the time) one of the best guns out there...the WGP Autococker. Beyond that, I spent a bunch on modding it with a straight rifled hard-chrome barrel, remote feed with expansion chamber, etc. I did this all at a local shop that carried nice stuff.
The mouth-breather gun of the day was the "Stingray". It went for 99 bucks, and was a hunk of plastic junk. You'd snicker if you saw someone show up to the field with one.
My jaw hit the floor one day when I arrived to drop off most of my paycheck at my favorite shop, and I saw a stack of Stingray boxes on the shelf. I looked, incredulously, at the owner, and asked, "what gives? You really selling that crap?"
He then proceeded to tell me that he knew those guns were total junk. However, he also told me that he got 20 or 30 calls a week (the interwebz weren't so big back then) from people who were asking if he carried the Stingray. When he'd tell them no, theyd thank him, hang up, and most likely never set foot in his shop.
There wasn't much money in those guns...at 99 bucks, how can there be? However, like the firearm business, the profit was in the accessories...masks, paint, etc. When he'd turn a customer who was hell-bent on buying a crap gun away, he lost -all- of their business. Beyond that, when they realized that they'd bought a crap gun, and wanted to upgrade to a better rig, they'd probably end up doing it at the shop that had "taken care of them" for their initial purchase.
He hated the fact that he had to keep extra Stingrays on-hand to swap out the (inevitably) broken guns people would bring back in. The company had a decent warranty policy, but they were slow to ship replacements, and it was easier for him to hand customers another replacement and deal with the manufacturer, than to tell them to go direct.
Initially, I'd been kind of torqued that my favored shop had "sold out". However, that discussion was fairly sobering. Unless you're already independently wealthy, running a business is a for-profit venture. Owners have to act accordingly. If the masses demand crap, becoming a purveyor of crap is profitable.
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 15:35
I keep reading posts about folks avoiding the FET on firearms. While not all moneys go where they are supposed to (we are talking about the Feds here), do people realize that the FET on firearms was lobbied for by sportsmen for such things as creating and maintaining public shooting ranges? Just something to think about
Being I have exactly 0 usable public ranges within 100 miles of me, I couldnt give a shit. I'll keep my 11% and spend it as I see fit.
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 15:36
And where does this money go? Is that money tracked at all? There certainly aren't public shooting ranges where I'm from/where I've been. They're all businesses or private clubs.
Its federaly mandated that it goes into a pot. What the end use exactly is is up to the division. They could spend it on homosexual racoon therapy for all we know. If its anything like the rest of the Fed (which I am) they probally **** that up too.
And where does this money go? Is that money tracked at all? There certainly aren't public shooting ranges where I'm from/where I've been. They're all businesses or private clubs.
Most every National Park has one. I know that the majority (to all) of them around me in Ohio have them.
C4
scoutfsu99
12-27-11, 15:56
Most every National Park has one. I know that the majority (to all) of them around me in Ohio have them.
C4
I wouldn't have a problem at all with it, but I don't think for a second that money is properly used or tracked. That's a lot of tax money and I've never seen a public range range. Maybe the one on post @ Lewis but I don't know if that qualifies. Everywhere else I've been, public ranges have been shut down.
But we're getting off topic. I think AZpilot nailed it. You can't hold it against a dealer for selling merchandise that the majority wants. The best you can hope for is they sell the cheap AND the good stuff. They need to stay in business so they can offer the good stuff to informed buyers.
I wouldn't have a problem at all with it, but I don't think for a second that money is properly used or tracked. That's a lot of tax money and I've never seen a public range range. Maybe the one on post @ Lewis but I don't know if that qualifies. Everywhere else I've been, public ranges have been shut down.
But we're getting off topic. I think AZpilot nailed it. You can't hold it against a dealer for selling merchandise that the majority wants. The best you can hope for is they sell the cheap AND the good stuff. They need to stay in business so they can offer the good stuff to informed buyers.
I really have no knowledge of this. I just stated that I know of a lot of public ranges. That was all. At some point, someone has to pay for them. This money DOES come from the FET collected.
C4
Initially, I'd been kind of torqued that my favored shop had "sold out". However, that discussion was fairly sobering. Unless you're already independently wealthy, running a business is a for-profit venture. Owners have to act accordingly. If the masses demand crap, becoming a purveyor of crap is profitable.
I got four phone calls today and one walk in. What did they want? Cheap firearms. I don't sell cheap firearms.
If I had to depend on my local economy, I would have been bankrupt in the first 6 months of opening. Thank GOD for the internet. :dance3:
While I have not buckled and started stocking Hi-Points, I can fully understand why some dealers would and do. They are in business to make a living and feed their families. Everything else doesn't matter.
C4
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 17:29
I wouldn't have a problem at all with it, but I don't think for a second that money is properly used or tracked. That's a lot of tax money and I've never seen a public range range. Maybe the one on post @ Lewis but I don't know if that qualifies. Everywhere else I've been, public ranges have been shut down.
But we're getting off topic. I think AZpilot nailed it. You can't hold it against a dealer for selling merchandise that the majority wants. The best you can hope for is they sell the cheap AND the good stuff. They need to stay in business so they can offer the good stuff to informed buyers.
http://www.ttb.gov/tax_audit/archive/2011_faet_due_date_schedule.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/general-information-excise-tax.html
scoutfsu99
12-27-11, 17:35
I gotta be honest, I don't know what that document is saying:confused:
ETA, thanks
I gotta be honest, I don't know what that document is saying:confused:
ETA, thanks
It is saying the agenda is to use our tax dollars to build shooting ranges across the country so then they can justify banning shooting on public lands.... it was attempted recently and failed but they will keep trying until they reach their agenda.
What is the consensus on an LAR Ops 4 upper? Just curious if this falls into the realms of the DPMS, BM, OA etc.....?
TacMedic556
01-19-12, 23:02
My buy list: Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense
My NOT buy list: Bushmaster, Olympic, Rock River, Spikes, DPMS, Les Baer, LWRC, etc. If it is not on my buy list then its on this list.
My opinion.
What is the consensus on an LAR Ops 4 upper? Just curious if this falls into the realms of the DPMS, BM, OA etc.....?
Friends brother has one, while he loves guns and has quite a few he dosn't know the terms/do much work on them. He's had it for a few months and the last time he was out something failed(he couldnt name the part and I wasnt there but I assume the buffer) causing the bolt to recoil to far bending the ish out of the side charger bolt handle which threads into the BCG.
Terlingueno
01-20-12, 06:19
Most every National Park has one. I know that the majority (to all) of them around me in Ohio have them.
C4
Grant is incorrect. There are no public shooting ranges or facilities in any National Park. It is illegal to discharge a firearm in a National Park. There are certain National Park units(National Recreation Areas, National Preserves) that allow limited hunting, but target shooting is not allowed.
BCM, DD, KAC.
You'll have so much fun shooting them, you'll forget you have a wife, and kids.
How can I forget them when they are right next to me on the firing line? :D
I won't ever be 'going to war,' and my #1 SD weapon is my .45 ACP (Why? Because I'm most comfortable, confident, and accurate with it,) but when I buy something, even just 'for hobby use,' I want something of known high quality. I bought a YHM lite rail for my LE6920, based on a friend's recommendation and his experiences with their gear. I had absolutely no problems with it, rails were all in spec, etc.
HOWEVER, I then bought a used BCM upper with a DD RIS II on it. That is where I saw the chasm between 'no problems to speak of' and 'professional quality.' Is the RIS II worth 3x the price of the YHM? IMO, if you are going to be wrapping your hands around this thing for years, yes. The mounting design is superior in how secure it is, how much less likely turning the unit loose with VFG torque is, the diameter, the fit and finish, and just overall how it feels in your hands. The YHM is in a box of spare parts, a Centurion C4 is what is mounted on the 6920 now.
So, in the end, it's not necessarily that some brands have to be complete junk (and I know others have had worse experiences on a broader scale with YHM than my small sample size, no argument there) to not be 'upper tier,' but at the very very least, the devil is in the details. It's what separates 'ok' from 'great.' Personally, I won't be able to go back from DD, Colt, Centurion, etc. rifles and parts. Especially when the cost differences are often negligible.
xjustintimex
01-20-12, 08:13
I remember the stingray. When I was a kid I wanted to get into paintball and my parents got me one for christmas :D first time I went to play it broke down :p
With respect to retailers selling crappy products (along with the good stuff)...
Once upon a time, I used to be into paintball in a big way. Mind you, this was some time ago.
I poured a ton of cash into (what was, at the time) one of the best guns out there...the WGP Autococker. Beyond that, I spent a bunch on modding it with a straight rifled hard-chrome barrel, remote feed with expansion chamber, etc. I did this all at a local shop that carried nice stuff.
The mouth-breather gun of the day was the "Stingray". It went for 99 bucks, and was a hunk of plastic junk. You'd snicker if you saw someone show up to the field with one.
My jaw hit the floor one day when I arrived to drop off most of my paycheck at my favorite shop, and I saw a stack of Stingray boxes on the shelf. I looked, incredulously, at the owner, and asked, "what gives? You really selling that crap?"
He then proceeded to tell me that he knew those guns were total junk. However, he also told me that he got 20 or 30 calls a week (the interwebz weren't so big back then) from people who were asking if he carried the Stingray. When he'd tell them no, theyd thank him, hang up, and most likely never set foot in his shop.
There wasn't much money in those guns...at 99 bucks, how can there be? However, like the firearm business, the profit was in the accessories...masks, paint, etc. When he'd turn a customer who was hell-bent on buying a crap gun away, he lost -all- of their business. Beyond that, when they realized that they'd bought a crap gun, and wanted to upgrade to a better rig, they'd probably end up doing it at the shop that had "taken care of them" for their initial purchase.
He hated the fact that he had to keep extra Stingrays on-hand to swap out the (inevitably) broken guns people would bring back in. The company had a decent warranty policy, but they were slow to ship replacements, and it was easier for him to hand customers another replacement and deal with the manufacturer, than to tell them to go direct.
Initially, I'd been kind of torqued that my favored shop had "sold out". However, that discussion was fairly sobering. Unless you're already independently wealthy, running a business is a for-profit venture. Owners have to act accordingly. If the masses demand crap, becoming a purveyor of crap is profitable.
motorolahamm
01-20-12, 08:17
i Agree with Iraqgunz i have a BM that alot of things were missed compared to my colt ,like the staking of the carrier key,castle nut etc. yeah the gun does run fine and i have never had an issue with it. but just there were things that were missed thing that should not be. iwas amazed that the 5.56 marked barrel was reamed at 5.56 straight from bushmaster , not the case in most !!!! and also with a little swap out such as the LPK , and some others im ok and happy with it , Guess this thread was intended as a one stop newbie shop on a what not to buy. and if you do just a info page of what to look for if you want true quality ..
old grunt usmc
01-20-12, 08:55
Well as for myself,When i was looking at AR/M4 platforms , i checked around and read m4carbine post,ect..and then went to my local gun shop.They had SIG'S,COLT'S,S&W'S,DPMS'S AND LMT'S.I pick'ed the LMT MRP CQB 16" because of the upgrade ability and the fact that LMT makes a good product.Also the LMT felt better than all the others and it seemed just to be made better.And for 1,500$ a good buy.I cannot afford to buy junk because my life and my families may depend on it! This is the only AR i have and if i can ever afford to get another i may try something else. That's why i'm here for ya'll to teach an old dog some new tricks. Thank all of you for all you do for this site and be careful out there!!
LocoPlumber
01-20-12, 10:33
i bought my first ar 3 years ago dpms ap4 m4. i found out it was the most unreliable gun i've ever shot and then i found this forum and learned so much now my lmt std is my favorite of all my rifles.
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