View Full Version : Rifles for the U.S. Secret Service
http://www.fbo.gov/spg/DHS/USSS/PDDC20229/HSSS01%2D08%2DR0008/SynopsisP.html
Would the M4 be a shoo-in for something like this?
Would the M4 be a shoo-in for something like this?
If you mean a Colt specifically, then no. However, even the M4 design wouldn't necessarily be a shoe-in. LWRC and Magpul both have designs that would fit the request.
If you mean a Colt specifically, then no. However, even the M4 design wouldn't necessarily be a shoe-in. LWRC and Magpul both have designs that would fit the request.
If you're refering to the Masada, I think the jury's still out on that.
Looks promising, but...."looks promising" doesn't cut it.
If you're refering to the Masada, I think the jury's still out on that.
My point was that the Colt 6920 isn't a gimme for the USSS. DEA chose a different vendor as has the DoD (FN). Also, there are certainly other designs in 5.56 NATO caliber weapons available. And the Masada may well be available by the time USSS makes the move to actually trial and purchase.
Joseywales
11-08-07, 17:40
My question is why the hell are they looking for a 5.56 when learnings in Iraq and Afganistan show that there is a greater need for a 308 ballistic rifle.
I think they should be looking for a 6.8SPC. If they are the feds, money for ammo is no object.
Business_Casual
11-08-07, 19:18
when learnings in Iraq and Afganistan show that there is a greater need for a 308 ballistic rifle.
:confused:
M_P
IrishDevil
11-08-07, 20:17
This is 100% assumption on my part, but I imagine Secret Service already has M4's inventoried. With the number being 30-50 rifles, I'd think these are for protective details and not general issue. I'd guess they are looking for an SBR with a folding stock, so as to be lower profile, something that could be semi hidden by a cover garment. But these are only my 100% don't have a clue guesses. Something like the new KAC PDW, would probably be perfect.
I think they should be looking for a 6.8SPC. If they are the feds, money for ammo is no object.
Yeah right...my agency won't even give me 9mm practice ammo! :)
Yeah right...my agency won't even give me 9mm practice ammo! :)
That's pretty much what I hear across the board. My understanding is that the 6.8SPC for general DoD use is pretty much a dead issue. We are far more likely to see Mk262 in general use than the 6.8SPC. Contrary to popular belief, cost is still a big issue for the DoD.
Submariner
11-09-07, 10:39
I think they should be looking for a 6.8SPC. If they are the feds, money for ammo is no object.
The FED keeps printing money for the feds and the value of the money keeps going down. I object.
What is USSS doing to protect the money?
My bad. USSS is now Homeland Security, not US Treasury.
Is any SOCOM unit using 6.8 SPC?
My question is why the hell are they looking for a 5.56 when learnings in Iraq and Afganistan show that there is a greater need for a 308 ballistic rifle.
I think they should be looking for a 6.8SPC. If they are the feds, money for ammo is no object.
I disagree. The 308 is a poor choice for the type of close work that the SS would be doing.
I think the 6.8 is a much better choice for what the SS does, but also believe that the MK262 would also fill their needs well.
C4
Business_Casual
11-09-07, 14:05
This is 100% assumption on my part, but I imagine Secret Service already has M4's inventoried. With the number being 30-50 rifles, I'd think these are for protective details and not general issue. I'd guess they are looking for an SBR with a folding stock, so as to be lower profile, something that could be semi hidden by a cover garment. But these are only my 100% don't have a clue guesses. Something like the new KAC PDW, would probably be perfect.
That makes sense, but don't they already have PDW80s?
M_P
My point was that the Colt 6920 isn't a gimme for the USSS. DEA chose a different vendor as has the DoD (FN).
The DEA did but the DoD did not (for M4). Colt is the exclusive supplier of M4 rifles to the DoD according to Colt's President in an interview in the most recent SAR. FN builds the M16A2 rifles.
Chad
Joseywales
11-09-07, 14:57
I disagree. The 308 is a poor choice for the type of close work that the SS would be doing.
I think the 6.8 is a much better choice for what the SS does, but also believe that the MK262 would also fill their needs well.
C4
Can't disagree with the logic. But I would rather have a round that over penetrates rather than one that might be defeated by body armor.
Oh well, that is a debate that can go on forever. Hope that our tax dollars get them the best.
Can't disagree with the logic. But I would rather have a round that over penetrates rather than one that might be defeated by body armor.
Oh well, that is a debate that can go on forever. Hope that our tax dollars get them the best.
Bad call. Over penetration is always a consideration. USSS is a mostly LE agency and they are largely not immune from civil action. Keeping in mind that the details are supported by marksmen who use significantly greater calibers than 5.56.
toddackerman
11-09-07, 17:34
That's pretty much what I hear across the board. My understanding is that the 6.8SPC for general DoD use is pretty much a dead issue. We are far more likely to see Mk262 in general use than the 6.8SPC. Contrary to popular belief, cost is still a big issue for the DoD.
I agree.
The 6.8 has a very long way to go before and IF it makes it. The costs would be extraordinary with tooling, ammo, accessories etc.
IF the 6.8 were going to make it, I think it would have by now with all the funding that's been going into the Military with GW at the helm. It sure won't get funding with the Democrats in office, which will probably be from 2008 to 2016 if I were a betting man...unless they really screw the pooch from '08 to
'12.
BTW...Mk262 will drop 'em! :)
I don't think their Counter Snipers worry about over penetration when using .300WSM. ;)
There's a list with 61 requirements that went with this solicitation. One of those requirements was that the carbine be piston operated. I know LWRC will be submitting samples to the USSS. I'm pretty sure HK will be as well, but don't quote me on that as I'm not POSITIVE on that one.
You guys do know that Mk262 is about the same cost or a bit more than U.S.G. pricing on 6.8 mm ammo, right?
LukeMacGillie
01-15-08, 20:59
You guys do know that Mk262 is about the same cost or a bit more than U.S.G. pricing on 6.8 mm ammo, right?
Doc,
Do you think that the cost of 6.8 will come down given the recent happenings in the frozen tundra?;)
Patrick Aherne
01-16-08, 01:26
You guys do know that Mk262 is about the same cost or a bit more than U.S.G. pricing on 6.8 mm ammo, right?
Gary, lets not let facts get in the way of the discussion, now.
John_Wayne777
01-16-08, 07:19
My question is why the hell are they looking for a 5.56 when learnings in Iraq and Afganistan show that there is a greater need for a 308 ballistic rifle.
I think they should be looking for a 6.8SPC. If they are the feds, money for ammo is no object.
Even for the Secret Service, money is certainly an object.
John_Wayne777
01-16-08, 07:21
Can't disagree with the logic. But I would rather have a round that over penetrates rather than one that might be defeated by body armor.
Oh well, that is a debate that can go on forever. Hope that our tax dollars get them the best.
Getting anything other than those P90 buzz-guns would be a good start....
Since we are talking horse race, I'll put a modest wager on the USSS getting short barreled H&K 416s for this....
Over penetration is a problem in that it doesn't let the bullet transfer all energy into the target. It still has enough to keep going. I hear lots of people say that overpenetration is a issue due only to fact that people behind the target are in danger if it penetrates. Unless every bullet hits and stays in the target you have projectiles that can hit innocent people.
Having worked across the table from a lot of the guys involved in making this decision, I found the details in the SOW very interesting. In particular: the inclusion of all necessary spare parts to keep the guns running for a 20k service life; the requirement for advance notification and approval before parts/design changes are implemented; and, the plan to do testing to failure.
As for the comment about ammo expense, most large federal LE agencies have seen big cuts in their firearms training and ammunition budgets over the past couple of years. For example, one agency I have dealt with used to think nothing of giving a vendor 50,000 rounds for testing, but now they have to horde every round and ask vendors to provide their own ammunition for testing, etc.
John_Wayne777
01-16-08, 11:55
Having worked across the table from a lot of the guys involved in making this decision, I found the details in the SOW very interesting. In particular: the inclusion of all necessary spare parts to keep the guns running for a 20k service life; the requirement for advance notification and approval before parts/design changes are implemented; and, the plan to do testing to failure.
As for the comment about ammo expense, most large federal LE agencies have seen big cuts in their firearms training and ammunition budgets over the past couple of years. For example, one agency I have dealt with used to think nothing of giving a vendor 50,000 rounds for testing, but now they have to horde every round and ask vendors to provide their own ammunition for testing, etc.
...and from what I've heard from reliable sources the USSS has been particularly effected. Since 9/11 they've been running their behinds off.
Budgeting in a government agency is all about trying to prioritize needs vs. wants...unfortunately training money is one of the first things to take a hit when crunch-time comes.
Getting anything other than those P90 buzz-guns would be a good start....
Since we are talking horse race, I'll put a modest wager on the USSS getting short barreled H&K 416s for this....
I'll take you up on that wager! ;) :D LWRC will be sending samples with some new features that will make them serious competition for the 416's. It will be interesting to see how the HK and LWRC stack up against one another in the upcoming tests.
There's a list with 42 requirements that went with this solicitation. One of those requirements was that the carbine be piston operated. I know LWRC will be submitting samples to the USSS. I'm pretty sure HK will be as well, but don't quote me on that as I'm not POSITIVE on that one.
I apologize if this information is wrong but havent there been pictures floating around with SS agents sporting HK 416's?
The SS was disbanded decades before the 416 came out, thankfully.
If you mean USSS agents, I doubt it.
Rofl, yes i do. Sorry i tend to refer to the as the secret service.
Here's a list of the 61 requirements these new carbines must meet in order to satisfy the stated solicitation.
http://fs1.fbo.gov/EPSData/DHS/Synopses/35425/HSSS01-08-R0008/ASSAULTRIFLESOWfinal.doc
After reading through it, I noticed there are several things the 416 does NOT have. The LWRC has all but one, and that one requirement has been taken care of so as far as I know, the LWRC currently meets all the requirements. We'll see how it performs in the upcoming tests.
Tspeis
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