View Full Version : When to Engage a Threat?
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 12:45
I am sure you all have heard about the IHOP shooting of 7 people 3 of whom were Guardsmen in Carson City Nevada. After telling the girlfriend about the story she asked the question, "What would you have done?" Me being a permit holder I carry my gun EVERYWHERE I can. I feel naked and lost without it. When posed with the question it got me thinking what WOULD I do? So as I sometimes do I started replaying the story in my head as if I were in the IHOP. I am not exactly sure how it all went down but I am sure the AK-47 the gunman was using was in sight as he walked through the door so...I said "If I saw some goon walk into any public place with an assualt rifle I would immediately take him out." So she came back with "What if it is not a real gun?" I then said, "If any clown walks into a place with a fake AK-47 he needs to be dealt with."
Now of course you wouldn't want to be on the other end of a defensive shoot with a fake gun so how would you go about this scenario?
If you saw some guy walk into the IHOP where you and your family are enjoying a meal with what seems to be a real assualt weapon. He hasn't fired yet and seems to be looking for someone. What would you do and Why?
Engage and Dispatch immediately?
Maybe try to wrestle the gun away without drawing your own?
I am asking for my own personal knowlede because I like to be prepared for anything, anytime. Thanks for all replies and advice!
Seeing someone carrying a weapon is not legal justification for the use of deadly force.
You could leave your gun holstered and challenge him, or wait to see what happens.
Me, I would wait till he fired shots and then take action.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 13:01
Seeing someone carrying a weapon is not legal justification for the use of deadly force.
You could leave your gun holstered and challenge him, or wait to see what happens.
Me, I would wait till he fired shots and then take action.
That's what I was affraid of. It isn't legal justification, but damn you don't want to have to wait until he kills somebody to take action.Then it is already too late. It is a tough spot to be in for sure. But I think I have to agree, as much as I don't want to, I'd have to wait. Wouldn't want to go to prison for the rest of my life...
4x4twenty6
09-08-11, 13:04
I would say that if a gun is out of the holster and in a persons hands then their intent is to use it. They are a potential threat.
You want to really think of a ****ed up situation. A guy walks in with a gun out and yells "Help there is a gunman outside killing people with a rifle" a CC good samaritan gets up to assist. That guy then dispatches him and starts executing folks at will after taking out someone who could potentially stop him.
The point i am trying to make is that you never can be sure. You have to take in the totality of the circumstances. How is that person acting? Does he have that dead stare, crazed look in his eys? Is he dressed strangely? Is he talking to himself?
If you train yourself to pick out strange behavior it can help in identifying when a situation is about to go bad.
If you want examples of such instances that i have experienced i can elaborate.
Failure2Stop
09-08-11, 13:10
The moment I believe that the person is a violent threat and is going to project that violence against those within my sphere of influence, he gets shot.
A bunch.
But there is both a wide gulf and hair's breadth between identifying a threat and engaging a threat. Time to observe, time to decide and time to prepare. Without that gap for thought, the target better already be involved in violent action to justify the force.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 13:15
I would say that if a gun is out of the holster and in a persons hands then their intent is to use it. They are a potential threat.
You want to really think of a ****ed up situation. A guy walks in with a gun out and yells "Help there is a gunman outside killing people with a rifle" a CC good samaritan gets up to assist. That guy then dispatches him and starts executing folks at will after taking out someone who could potentially stop him.
The point i am trying to make is that you never can be sure. You have to take in the totality of the circumstances. How is that person acting? Does he have that dead stare, crazed look in his eys? Is he dressed strangely? Is he talking to himself?
If you train yourself to pick out strange behavior it can help in identifying when a situation is about to go bad.
If you want examples of such instances that i have experienced i can elaborate.
I definitely see where you are coming from. It's impossible to be ready for everything. I'd just like to be as prepared as I can be for as many possible situations I can fit inside my helmet filler.
Did that story really happen or was that a hypothetical?
I would absolutely love examples if you are offering! Can't have enough tools for the tool box...
In the recent IHOP situation, they said that the perp got out of his van and shot a guy on a motorcycle before he even entered the IHOP. This being the case, and had I been in the IHOP, I would have engaged him the second he opened the door into the IHOP if I could.
If that wasn’t the case, if I saw a person walking into a restaurant with an AK in his hands, I think I would challenge him with my gun out and at the low ready. If he made any moves like he was bringing it up, he would get 3 to the chest pretty quick.
There are so many scenarios that we could hash over saying what we would and wouldn’t do, but it just all comes down to having acute situational awareness and then making a hopefully good decision about the threat level. In this case, I don’t think normal people walk into a restaurant with an AK in hand, so I would immediately consider it to be a high threat level and try to get behind some cover so I could then engage from cover if needed.
I am sure you all have heard about the IHOP shooting of 7 people 3 of whom were Guardsmen in Carson City Nevada. After telling the girlfriend about the story she asked the question, "What would you have done?" Me being a permit holder I carry my gun EVERYWHERE I can. I feel naked and lost without it. When posed with the question it got me thinking what WOULD I do? So as I sometimes do I started replaying the story in my head as if I were in the IHOP. I am not exactly sure how it all went down but I am sure the AK-47 the gunman was using was in sight as he walked through the door so...I said "If I saw some goon walk into any public place with an assualt rifle I would immediately take him out." So she came back with "What if it is not a real gun?" I then said, "If any clown walks into a place with a fake AK-47 he needs to be dealt with."
Now of course you wouldn't want to be on the other end of a defensive shoot with a fake gun so how would you go about this scenario?
If you saw some guy walk into the IHOP where you and your family are enjoying a meal with what seems to be a real assualt weapon. He hasn't fired yet and seems to be looking for someone. What would you do and Why?
Engage and Dispatch immediately?
Maybe try to wrestle the gun away without drawing your own?
I am asking for my own personal knowlede because I like to be prepared for anything, anytime. Thanks for all replies and advice!
My first and foremost priority in the scenario you have painted is to get my family out of harm's way immediately by moving them with haste out of that building via the closest egress point (door or window). All other considerations are completely secondary until that has occurred. That said, there are a million "what ifs" that could occur during that movement. I might have to engage him while moving my family out because he raised the weapon toward myself or another and thereby caused me to believe that he was going to cause serious physical injury or death to me or another. I can't say exactly how that situation would play out for me. All I can tell you is that my first thoughts would be for the safety of my family in that scenario and getting out would be my top priority.
Let me share a story that occurred in my city (in Arizona) in the late 1990's. A 19 year old kid and his 20 year old friend decided it would be cool to exercise their right to carry a shotgun openly while walking down the street. So they walked three blocks down a busy road in broad daylight to a McDonald's. Each carrying a pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge. They entered the McDonald's and walked up to the counter to place their orders. There were 11 people in the restaurant and six employees.
Not a single person said a word about the shotguns and their orders were placed, despite the fact that everyone interviewed later said that the guns scared them and made them nervous. One woman said: "I just figured they were robbing the place." Just as they were getting ready to pay for their order, an off duty federal agent walked into the McDonalds and saw the men with the guns. He drew from concealment, moved to cover and ordered the guns and them to the ground. One guy complied and the other argued. Later, the agent told officers that he was taking up the trigger slack on his Glock when the kid finally went to the ground and complied.
Officers arrived and detained the guys with the guns and got to the bottom of the situation. They had broken no laws and the McDonalds manager was not interested in filing a disorderly conduct complaint for the disruption of his business against them. He simply said: "Get them out of here before somebody really does get killed."
That incident is something I use to this day to train police recruits. I try to show them that sometimes things are not what they seem to be. I also show them the sheep mentality of the workers and the patrons and try to stress to them that anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing.
If you find yourself in a situation like this, your first thoughts should go something like this:
1) Secure my family
2) Get to cover
3) Get help. Either call 911 yourself or have a family member call
4) Get involved if can do so from a safe position while still affording your family protection.
5) Exercise good weapons and muzzle discipline and do not have a drawn weapon conspicuously displayed if at all possible. Officers will be looking for people with guns and they will be on alert. Don't risk a friendly fire incident.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 13:23
In the recent IHOP situation, they said that the perp got out of his van and shot a guy on a motorcycle before he even entered the IHOP. This being the case, and had I been in the IHOP, I would have engaged him the second he opened the door into the IHOP if I could.
If that wasn’t the case, if I saw a person walking into a restaurant with an AK in his hands, I think I would challenge him with my gun out and at the low ready. If he made any moves like he was bringing it up, he would get 3 to the chest pretty quick.
There are so many scenarios that we could hash over saying what we would and wouldn’t do, but it just all comes down to having acute situational awareness and then making a hopefully good decision about the threat level. In this case, I don’t think normal people walk into a restaurant with an AK in hand, so I would immediately consider it to be a high threat level and try to get behind some cover so I could then engage from cover if needed.
There are countless scenarios but I just like getting others opinions and seeing what their justifications are for their actions. I have already learned a great deal from the responses so far...
The minute you saw the AK47 you could have challenged him even with your hand on your weapon and the second he raised his you could have initiated your draw.
Now at that point you could have just covered him at muzzle point or engaged him if he got a shot off. Either way the damage could have been stopped or at a minimum minimized.
If it happens to be a toy i really don't believe anyone would fault you for drawing and covering the threat to control the situation.
R.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 13:31
DireWulf very interesting story. I never thought about it like that. I guess you could remove all family and then order the weapon to be dropped. If it is an innocent Dumb Ass then they will likely comply. If compliance is not met and he raises the weapon in a threatening manner then deadly force would surely be justified. Great post. Glad to hear form someone who has BTDT.
4x4twenty6
09-08-11, 13:43
Incorporate body armor drills to your routines folks.
2 to the chest 1 to the head and also practice after inducing some sort of stress. When your adrenaline dumps all kinds of things happen. i.e. tunnel vision, respitory rate increases, heart rate increases and all that influences how well you can put rounds on target.
Any way on to the story.
While working nights in the greater new orleans area me and my buddies i worked with frequented a stop and rob after roll call cuz the guy who worked every night gave us drinks and food for dirt cheap so we kept a constant eye on his business because it was one of few that were open in that area and had been robbed a lot in the past.
I pull up on side of the business and shut my car off and as i am walking in i see 2 guys leaning over the counter and i dont see the clerk (he was bending down because the two guys wanted to see something that was in the glass)
There was a third guy walking around the back of the store with all kinds of shit in his hands.
I walk in and the two guys looking over the counter ****ing froze.
I see the third guy walk up to the front of the store with a bunch of goodies. Immediately after seeing me he changes direction and he begins putting them back.
I yell to YaYa( clerks nickname) and i said hey everything ok and he said yes i was just trying to get something for these guys.
I walk to the back of the store by the other guy and grab a drink as my two buddies walk in. They 3 guys ultimately ended up leaving the store having not purchased anything.
They were in there distracting the clerk to steal a bunch of shit and i walked in right in the middle of it.
I put myself in the best position, at the back of the store cuz i knew my two buddies were about to pull up. I had the rear and third bad guy covered so that he wouldnt get the jump on us if the other two got froggy when my two other buddies walked in.
A persons behavior tells you so much about their intentions so train yourself to identify strange behavior.
There are countless scenarios but I just like getting others opinions and seeing what their justifications are for their actions. I have already learned a great deal from the responses so far...
Another forumer's father just got out of that iHOP seconds prior to the shooting.
Here it is: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1094155
For me, DireWulf made the most sound points.
However, challenging the guy might just make you his primary target.
Do so from a position of cover.
The minute you saw the AK47 you could have challenged him even with your hand on your weapon and the second he raised his you could have initiated your draw.
Wow. you must have a pretty quick draw...If someone is holding a rifle at the ready there's no way I'm challenging them with a holstered pistol.
The simple act of challenging him implies I believe he may be a threat.
you could have just covered him at muzzle point or engaged him if he got a shot off.
I'm assuming the replies here will differ greatly from the perspective of LE vs. CCW civvy.
Does the usual standard of "articulation of a reasonable person" apply to both? At what point is it unreasonable to consider a man holding an AK-47 inside an IHOP a threat? At that point, whether it's fake or real is meaningless, I would think.
:blink:
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 13:54
However, challenging the guy might just make you his primary target.
Do so from a position of cover.
From cover of course. Thanks for the link. That is crazy his father was right there. Wow.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 14:01
Incorporate body armor drills to your routines folks.
2 to the chest 1 to the head and also practice after inducing some sort of stress. When your adrenaline dumps all kinds of things happen. i.e. tunnel vision, respitory rate increases, heart rate increases and all that influences how well you can put rounds on target.
Any way on to the story.
While working nights in the greater new orleans area me and my buddies i worked with frequented a stop and rob after roll call cuz the guy who worked every night gave us drinks and food for dirt cheap so we kept a constant eye on his business because it was one of few that were open in that area and had been robbed a lot in the past.
I pull up on side of the business and shut my car off and as i am walking in i see 2 guys leaning over the counter and i dont see the clerk (he was bending down because the two guys wanted to see something that was in the glass)
There was a third guy walking around the back of the store with all kinds of shit in his hands.
I walk in and the two guys looking over the counter ****ing froze.
I see the third guy walk up to the front of the store with a bunch of goodies. Immediately after seeing me he changes direction and he begins putting them back.
I yell to YaYa( clerks nickname) and i said hey everything ok and he said yes i was just trying to get something for these guys.
I walk to the back of the store by the other guy and grab a drink as my two buddies walk in. They 3 guys ultimately ended up leaving the store having not purchased anything.
They were in there distracting the clerk to steal a bunch of shit and i walked in right in the middle of it.
I put myself in the best position, at the back of the store cuz i knew my two buddies were about to pull up. I had the rear and third bad guy covered so that he wouldnt get the jump on us if the other two got froggy when my two other buddies walked in.
A persons behavior tells you so much about their intentions so train yourself to identify strange behavior.
Interesting and Understood. I find myself playing out scenarios all the time when I am out and about. Trying to figure in multiple shooters...stuck in traffic...large groups of people. ANYTHING I can think of.
Great advice on the body armor drills. Honestly never thought of that or why I always see people doing it. Makes sense now though.
What exactly in an IHOP constitutes "cover" from an AK? Concealment perhaps, but cover would be almost nonexistent in a retail environment against an AK. I think a CCW'er needs to be very circumspect when considering engaging an armed unknown contact who hasn't fired a shot, particularly one with a rifle. Best to be a good witness and if a firing solution becomes necessary, use surprise as your best ally.
4x4twenty6
09-08-11, 14:14
Thinking of scenarios is great.
Hell for swat thats what we did, train a lot for the possibility of having to enter a bad situation and continuously act out scenarios and change them.
At home think about what you would do if your home was invaded.
We have had some home invasions in the little rock area and some surrounding citys and being that i am in a new house and new state for that matter i had to adjust my tactics slightly.
If I'm being really honest with myself and truly considering the stark reality of what it would feel like to hear a gunshot from outside followed by someoning entering a diner where I'm eating with a rifle already shouldered, chances are I would sort of sit in stunned disbelief for at least a few moments, meaning the shooter would almost certainly have gotten some shots off & possible killed someone before I would have the presence of mind to return fire with a concealed weapon.
Wow. you must have a pretty quick draw...If someone is holding a rifle at the ready there's no way I'm challenging them with a holstered pistol.
The simple act of challenging him implies I believe he may be a threat.
:blink:
Well I made the assumption he had it in one hand hanging by his side, in a non threatening manner, as in he's just carrying it inside, so that's my bad. Otherwise it would challenged him with my weapon out from behind some form of cover if possible. Thanks for pointing that out.
SSGGunBunny
09-08-11, 14:22
I usually carry in a laptop case, since I have my work laptop with me most of the time. My Glock is always condition one or zero, depending on who you ask, I have the compartment unzipped but the weapon is not visible. I have been in several situations where I felt something may be amiss, be it someone who didn't look right or a feeling I got. In those instances, I always slide my hand into the pocket of that case and have my hand on the weapon, pulling it out, aiming and firing would take about a second.
In a situation like the IHOP, I would be in the mindset to take him out once he shouldered or postured to fire and identified himself as a no shit threat. I'm not approaching him or talking to him, up until I drop him, I am evaluating my target...what his likely actions will be when rounds fly, who is in my way, what covered position I will be moving to if I have to maneuver and where he may move to. I will use all the time I have to play out what needs to be done and how to do it until I am forced to act.
A phrase that was drummed into me from the time I was a young private at Ft. Benning was Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action. In order to win an engagement, it is almost always necessary to have at least two. If I engage him immediately when he decides to act with a rapid burst of accurate .45 caliber rounds, I will have all three. Maybe he will get off a shot first but he will likely miss or not even fire unless he has some really good training with that weapon and on how to react during contact.
I may not be a top shot with a pistol but I know I can empty that Glock 21 in two seconds into the kill zone of a target at 20 yards without using the sights and I know from experience in Afghanistan that I don't panic when someone shoots at me.
Well I made the assumption he had it in one hand hanging by his side, in a non threatening manner, as in he's just carrying it inside, so that's my bad. Otherwise it would challenged him with my weapon out from behind some form of cover if possible. Thanks for pointing that out.
And I made the assumption that he would have the rifle at the ready...I guess interpretation of these answers is severely limited by unvoiced assumptions about both the potential shooter AND the environment.
One thing I've discussed with my wife about these types of situations is HOW to get out of the way. Low and fast. If you can't move to an exit, get small.
We were about 6 blocks away from the Trolley Square incident in Utah that happened a couple of years ago ('07?) and were considering going to dinner there when everything for a couple of miles turned red and blue in nearly every direction. Ever since then, we talk thru situations like what happened in the IHOP when we hear about them, just to think it thru.
I carry a gun every day and have for over 15 years. I can tell you though, that having to clear leather changed the way I think about how important it is to involve myself in others problems. Never had to drop the hammer, but it could have turned out really bad even without having to do so.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 14:30
I usually carry in a laptop case, since I have my work laptop with me most of the time. My Glock is always condition one or zero, depending on who you ask, I have the compartment unzipped but the weapon is not visible. I have been in several situations where I felt something may be amiss, be it someone who didn't look right or a feeling I got. In those instances, I always slide my hand into the pocket of that case and have my hand on the weapon, pulling it out, aiming and firing would take about a second.
In a situation like the IHOP, I would be in the mindset to take him out once he shouldered or postured to fire and identified himself as a no shit threat. I'm not approaching him or talking to him, up until I drop him, I am evaluating my target...what his likely actions will be when rounds fly, who is in my way, what covered position I will be moving to if I have to maneuver and where he may move to. I will use all the time I have to play out what needs to be done and how to do it until I am forced to act.
A phrase that was drummed into me from the time I was a young private at Ft. Benning was Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action. In order to win an engagement, it is almost always necessary to have at least two. If I engage him immediately when he decides to act with a rapid burst of accurate .45 caliber rounds, I will have all three. Maybe he will get off a shot first but he will likely miss or not even fire unless he has some really good training with that weapon and on how to react during contact.
I may not be a top shot with a pistol but I know I can empty that Glock 21 in two seconds into the kill zone of a target at 20 yards without using the sights and I know from experience in Afghanistan that I don't panic when someone shoots at me.
20 yards? Very impressive! How are you so accurate from so far, so fast, without sighting?
Failure2Stop
09-08-11, 14:36
I usually carry in a laptop case, since I have my work laptop with me most of the time. My Glock is always condition one or zero, depending on who you ask, I have the compartment unzipped but the weapon is not visible. I have been in several situations where I felt something may be amiss, be it someone who didn't look right or a feeling I got. In those instances, I always slide my hand into the pocket of that case and have my hand on the weapon, pulling it out, aiming and firing would take about a second.
In a situation like the IHOP, I would be in the mindset to take him out once he shouldered or postured to fire and identified himself as a no shit threat. I'm not approaching him or talking to him, up until I drop him, I am evaluating my target...what his likely actions will be when rounds fly, who is in my way, what covered position I will be moving to if I have to maneuver and where he may move to. I will use all the time I have to play out what needs to be done and how to do it until I am forced to act.
A phrase that was drummed into me from the time I was a young private at Ft. Benning was Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action. In order to win an engagement, it is almost always necessary to have at least two. If I engage him immediately when he decides to act with a rapid burst of accurate .45 caliber rounds, I will have all three. Maybe he will get off a shot first but he will likely miss or not even fire unless he has some really good training with that weapon and on how to react during contact.
I may not be a top shot with a pistol but I know I can empty that Glock 21 in two seconds into the kill zone of a target at 20 yards without using the sights and I know from experience in Afghanistan that I don't panic when someone shoots at me.
Ahem.
I encourage a self edit or something with substance to back this up.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 14:36
One thing I've discussed with my wife about these types of situations is HOW to get out of the way. Low and fast. If you can't move to an exit, get small.
We were about 6 blocks away from the Trolley Square incident in Utah that happened a couple of years ago ('07?) and were considering going to dinner there when everything for a couple of miles turned red and blue in nearly every direction. Ever since then, we talk thru situations like what happened in the IHOP when we hear about them, just to think it thru.
I carry a gun every day and have for over 15 years. I can tell you though, that having to clear leather changed the way I think about how important it is to involve myself in others problems. Never had to drop the hammer, but it could have turned out really bad even without having to do so.
I think it is highly important to have a plan with your Wife/GF. Even if they don't carry, knowing they know how to get to cover and what proper cover is would be crucuial in an active shooter scenario. Not having to worry about them will let you focus more on the threat. Children is something I don't have to worry abuout just yet but that brings another dynamic into the situation.
Things like these are the reason I always look for alternate Exit signs when I'm in an establishment. Even at a restaurant sitting my the kitchen is a good spot, might not be the best seat in the house but just about all kitchens have an exit to the back.
My girl is pretty clueless about this stuff and even when I try to educate her she thinks it will never happen. It drives me NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SSGGunBunny
09-08-11, 14:41
A lot of training and practice, thankfully most of it with ammo provided by the Army. I did a lot of close quarters, weapons transition and reflexive fire training in regular and in low light while on active duty. I never kept count but with the M4 and M9 I must have fired tens of thousands of rounds over the years. I'm not a sniper guy or going to be on any precision pistol team but I am very dangerous at short distances.
4x4twenty6
09-08-11, 14:42
That is some incredible muscle memory. what if the target starts moving?
I can dump a mag real fast too at a stationary target not shooting back, but moving and shooting is your best bet at survival while engaging a target with no cover or concealment or limited amount of either. AK rds will punch through steel and some concrete walls so cover may not be cover for long if it begins to deteriorate.
Alot of good responses here, but I think first and foremost, the safety of your family comes first, then you can think about engaging the threat...unless the threat is already on you and you have no choice but to engage with your family still in the same area.
As to how I would challenge the perp? I would have the weapon drawn and lined up upper center mass ready to go if I was challenging him to drop the weapon. If he was excercising his "right to open carry", or is carrying a fake gun for a prank, then he will hopefully be articulate enough to tell me and not do anything stupid. My finger wouldn't be on the trigger either btw...but I would most definitely be ready to go if I brought my handgun to a rifle fight. Having the gun ready is especially true if I have already heard shots or seen him shooting at people (if not just engaging on the spot).
Cover? In an IHOP? Pretty much non-existent. I would rather be in an area that I could quickly maneuver to get out of the line of fire while engaging and hopefully with a background free of innocent pedestrians in case I miss a shot (which is a high probability when on the move). This is why you practice "angle engagement drills". I know this is asking for alot of factors to align perfectly for a good outcome, but that is the nature of an active shooter situation...you can't pick the time, place, or conditions, so you just have to train mentally and physically to be as ready as possible....and then train some more!
However, as macho and egotistic as we guys like to be, engaging really is the last thing you want to do. Too many factors and too many things that can go wrong...especially in todays litigous society.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 14:51
My girl is pretty clueless about this stuff and even when I try to educate her she thinks it will never happen. It drives me NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This x1000! My girl is the same way. She just doesn't seem to take the stuff I try to talk about serious. She did mention wanting a gun after the whole IHOP thing so maybe she might start turning around...
Still can't get her to fire more than 1 round at a time out of M4...
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 14:59
Alot of good responses here, but I think first and foremost, the safety of your family comes first, then you can think about engaging the threat...unless the threat is already on you and you have no choice but to engage with your family still in the same area.
As to how I would challenge the perp? I would have the weapon drawn and lined up upper center mass ready to go if I was challenging him to drop the weapon. If he was excercising his "right to open carry", or is carrying a fake gun for a prank, then he will hopefully be articulate enough to tell me and not do anything stupid. My finger wouldn't be on the trigger either btw...but I would most definitely be ready to go if I brought my handgun to a rifle fight. Having the gun ready is especially true if I have already heard shots or seen him shooting at people (if not just engaging on the spot).
Cover? In an IHOP? Pretty much non-existent. I would rather be in an area that I could quickly maneuver to get out of the line of fire while engaging and hopefully with a background free of innocent pedestrians in case I miss a shot (which is a high probability when on the move). This is why you practice "angle engagement drills". I know this is asking for alot of factors to align perfectly for a good outcome, but that is the nature of an active shooter situation...you can't pick the time, place, or conditions, so you just have to train mentally and physically to be as ready as possible....and then train some more!
However, as macho and egotistic as we guys like to be, engaging really is the last thing you want to do. Too many factors and too many things that can go wrong...especially in todays litigous society.
I think we can all agree that if time permits getting loved ones to safety is priority #1.
It would probably more concealment then cover but if I am looking for it then I must need it really bad so anything getting me out of direct line of sight/fire is optimal.
Something that a few of you may want to take into consideration. it would be highly advisable for personnel to acquaint themselves with the particular laws of the state they are in.
What works in Florida or Utah may not necessarily apply to Nevada (for example).
Failure2Stop
09-08-11, 15:05
A lot of training and practice, thankfully most of it with ammo provided by the Army. I did a lot of close quarters, weapons transition and reflexive fire training in regular and in low light while on active duty. I never kept count but with the M4 and M9 I must have fired tens of thousands of rounds over the years. I'm not a sniper guy or going to be on any precision pistol team but I am very dangerous at short distances.
The specific comment of interest was this:
I may not be a top shot with a pistol but I know I can empty that Glock 21 in two seconds into the kill zone of a target at 20 yards without using the sights and I know from experience in Afghanistan that I don't panic when someone shoots at me.
Thats 10 to 14 rounds.
Let's just low-ball this and say that you only have 10 rounders and don't top off, so you have exactly 10 rounds.
That's 5 rounds per second.
Splits of .20 seconds.
Getting all of those shots into even the "C" zone of an IPSC without sights at 20 yards at that cadence is extremely impressive.
I would love to see it.
Cover? In an IHOP? Pretty much non-existent. I would rather be in an area that I could quickly maneuver to get out of the line of fire while engaging
This can mean be out in the open. That will let you move around unobstructed. Bad idea
Depends on the IHOP. I agree, against an AK 47 rounds, good luck finding something to give you protection, but I'll take a little cover, even if almost non existent over being in the open. Obviously I'm not going to pick cover in a corner when I can get easily pinned down, but again, I'll pick cover. Maybe the cover can act a bit as concealment and allow me to move to a flank so I can pick him off while he's shooting at others, again better than being in the open where he can see EVERYTHING you're doing. If I'm lucky I can change the OODA loop and make him react to my actions.
Not to change the subject but does anyone know what caused the guy to do this??
Something that a few of you may want to take into consideration. it would be highly advisable for personnel to acquaint themselves with the particular laws of the state they are in.
What works in Florida or Utah may not necessarily apply to Nevada (for example).
Absolutely! I travel to Utah quite a bit from Wyoming, and there are some distinct differences between the two states. What flies in Wyoming may not fly in Utah and vise-versa.
Just wanted to address the cover situation for a sec. While there might not be cover in the building, there will almost certainly be some outside. Things like barrier or retaining walls. The construction of the short wall below the windows of many Denny's, IHOPs and others is brick or concrete. While not the best (and I have personal experience with this) cars and trucks at the engine area are better than standing in the open. The point I'm making is that any cover is better than nothing. I've seen too may cops wounded or killed either right next to cover or after running past cover to engage suspects in the open.
I've had the benefit of a lot of force on force training and I've been on call-ups where entry was made on places like this. Think outside the box, folks. Break windows, use side or back doors. Experience tells us that most people in mass shootings freeze. Look to the Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, TX as an example. Most people cowered in their booths waiting to be killed. Get low and get out if you can. If not, get low and get behind something to engage.
The specific comment of interest was this:
Thats 10 to 14 rounds.
Let's just low-ball this and say that you only have 10 rounders and don't top off, so you have exactly 10 rounds.
That's 5 rounds per second.
Splits of .20 seconds.
Getting all of those shots into even the "C" zone of an IPSC without sights at 20 yards at that cadence is extremely impressive.
I would love to see it.
:moil:
Failure2Stop
09-08-11, 15:33
:moil:
I actually have no idea what that smilie is supposed to be. . .
Something that a few of you may want to take into consideration. it would be highly advisable for personnel to acquaint themselves with the particular laws of the state they are in.
What works in Florida or Utah may not necessarily apply to Nevada (for example).
Good point, sir. A good rule of thumb I usually apply to things like this is:
The suspect must have the ability, opportunity and take overt action that demonstrates motivation, to cause serious injury or death to you or another person.
1) Ability: AK47
2) Opportunity: You're in his sphere of physical influence and he can see or will soon see you and pose a threat to you. It must be reasonable. You can't shoot a man on the other side of an impassable raging river threatening to kill you with a bat.
3) Overt action/motivation: Verbal threats of violence or death, aiming the weapon, pointing the weapon, firing to name a few.
For me personally, all three of these aforementioned things are needed.
The Means, Motive and Opportunity rule of thumb is what most states base their justification clauses on. Study your state's and those to plan to travel to.
I usually carry in a laptop case, since I have my work laptop with me most of the time. My Glock is always condition one or zero, depending on who you ask, I have the compartment unzipped but the weapon is not visible. I have been in several situations where I felt something may be amiss, be it someone who didn't look right or a feeling I got. In those instances, I always slide my hand into the pocket of that case and have my hand on the weapon, pulling it out, aiming and firing would take about a second.
In a situation like the IHOP, I would be in the mindset to take him out once he shouldered or postured to fire and identified himself as a no shit threat. I'm not approaching him or talking to him, up until I drop him, I am evaluating my target...what his likely actions will be when rounds fly, who is in my way, what covered position I will be moving to if I have to maneuver and where he may move to. I will use all the time I have to play out what needs to be done and how to do it until I am forced to act.
A phrase that was drummed into me from the time I was a young private at Ft. Benning was Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action. In order to win an engagement, it is almost always necessary to have at least two. If I engage him immediately when he decides to act with a rapid burst of accurate .45 caliber rounds, I will have all three. Maybe he will get off a shot first but he will likely miss or not even fire unless he has some really good training with that weapon and on how to react during contact.
I may not be a top shot with a pistol but I know I can empty that Glock 21 in two seconds into the kill zone of a target at 20 yards without using the sights and I know from experience in Afghanistan that I don't panic when someone shoots at me.
The others have been pretty nice, but I'm flat out going to call BS. You might be able to empty a G21 AT the "kill zone" of a target at 20 yards in 2 seconds without using the sights. I would place the emphasis on might, because that's .18 splits sustained for a G21 with 11 rounds if using a 10 round mag. It drops to .14 splits if using a full cap mag. I find you tale to be incredibly tall, so to speak. :rolleyes:
The specific comment of interest was this:
Thats 10 to 14 rounds.
Let's just low-ball this and say that you only have 10 rounders and don't top off, so you have exactly 10 rounds.
That's 5 rounds per second.
Splits of .20 seconds.
Getting all of those shots into even the "C" zone of an IPSC without sights at 20 yards at that cadence is extremely impressive.
I would love to see it.
It also begs the question of why wouldn't you use the sights at 20 yards? Point shooting at 20 yards that fast and with those results?
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 17:06
Absolutely! I travel to Utah quite a bit from Wyoming, and there are some distinct differences between the two states. What flies in Wyoming may not fly in Utah and vise-versa.
Could you be a little more specific? I not asking you to go into heavy detail. Just some of the things that change for you when crossing borders.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 17:11
Good point, sir. A good rule of thumb I usually apply to things like this is:
The suspect must have the ability, opportunity and take overt action that demonstrates motivation, to cause serious injury or death to you or another person.
1) Ability: AK47
2) Opportunity: You're in his sphere of physical influence and he can see or will soon see you and pose a threat to you. It must be reasonable. You can't shoot a man on the other side of an impassable raging river threatening to kill you with a bat.
3) Overt action/motivation: Verbal threats of violence or death, aiming the weapon, pointing the weapon, firing to name a few.
For me personally, all three of these aforementioned things are needed.
The Means, Motive and Opportunity rule of thumb is what most states base their justification clauses on. Study your state's and those to plan to travel to.
That is an excellent rule of thumb indeed. I'm definitely putting that one in the memory bank. You are a wealth of info Wulf! What would be the best way to go about finding out what "rule of thumb" each state uses for their justifications? Look up old trials from said state?
Could you be a little more specific? I not asking you to go into heavy detail. Just some of the things that change for you when crossing borders.
-Officer notification (if you get pulled over). In Wyo, you don't have to say a word. In Utah, they generally already know when they run your plate, but you are obligated to state that you have a permit and a gun... (IN THAT ORDER, preferably, as to not alarm them.)
-Establishments that allow or disallow. You'd damn near never see a sign in Wyoming, but they are out there in Utah, best keep an eye out so as not to get asked to leave (Yes, I know, concealed is concealed)
-Carrying where there are alcoholic beverages available. In Wyo, can't carry if the business makes more than 51% of it's sales in alcohol. In Utah, you're not supposed to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol regardless. (No, I don't ever drink and carry). (This one has only been confirmed with a phone call to UT Bureau of investigation, they wouldn't give it to me in writing, nor can I find it in their statues)
-Castle doctrine - Utah has it, Wyoming has similar verbiage.
There's a few.
Like IG said, learn the states you plan to be in or visit.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 17:25
-Officer notification (if you get pulled over). In Wyo, you don't have to say a word. In Utah, they generally already know when they run your plate, but you are obligated to state that you have a permit and a gun... (IN THAT ORDER, preferably, as to not alarm them.)
-Establishments that allow or disallow. You'd damn near never see a sign in Wyoming, but they are out there in Utah, best keep an eye out so as not to get asked to leave (Yes, I know, concealed is concealed)
-Carrying where there are alcoholic beverages available. In Wyo, can't carry if the business makes more than 51% of it's sales in alcohol. In Utah, you're not supposed to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol regardless. (No, I don't ever drink and carry). (This one has only been confirmed with a phone call to UT Bureau of investigation, they wouldn't give it to me in writing, nor can I find it in their statues)
-Castle doctrine - Utah has it, Wyoming has similar verbiage.
There's a few.
Like IG said, learn the states you plan to be in or visit.
Ahh yes, very very good points indeed. I don't consume alcohol at all but 51% of sales in alcohol? Being a little specific huh WyO? :D
Ahh yes, very very good points indeed. I don't consume alcohol at all but 51% of sales in alcohol? Being a little specific huh WyO? :D
Essentially, they're allowing carry in Bar and Grill type restaurants. Actually talked with Gov. Mead about quite a few quirky issues with Wyo's gun laws during his campaign. He pushed thru the Constitutional Carry law here. It went into effect July 1st.
ETA *sorry for the side track*
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 17:33
Essentially, they're allowing carry in Bar and Grill type restaurants. Actually talked with Gov. Mead about quite a few quirky issues with Wyo's gun laws during his campaign. He pushed thru the Constitutional Carry law here. It went into effect July 1st.
ETA *sorry for the side track*
Well great for you guys! No side track at all. It's all relevant to when to and when not to engage a threat. Can't engage without a weapon...
Getting all of those shots into even the "C" zone of an IPSC without sights at 20 yards at that cadence is extremely impressive.
I would love to see it.
Just a draw and 1 shot 1 A zone hit with no sights at 20 yards consistently would impress the heck out of me.
Maybe I am easily impressed due to unfamiliarity with not using the sights at all but contact distances.
Also I would not verbally challenge a guy with a rifle. If it's just a guy carrying a rifle it's not my business though I might leave or call the cops depending on demeanor and the setting. If he was shooting people or threatening to do so I wouldn't want to attract his attention prior to me shooting him if that was my plan.
The legal standard as I have been taught is AOJP. Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy and Preclusion. Direwulf touched on the principles while using different words.
AOJP Fairly in-depth here:
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/
PS Some of this guys talk on Preclusion I disagree with, and some jurisdictions have requirements to retreat if you can while some don't. But that will give you some general ideas.
Getting .18sec splits and staying on target is doable for a couple of shots, but 10-14 in a row? That would be something neat to see.
I can do it for 2-3 shots on an 8" plate, but not at 20 yards, and not for that many rounds. :D
Getting .18sec splits and staying on target is doable for a couple of shots, but 10-14 in a row? That would be something neat to see.
I can do it for 2-3 shots on an 8" plate, but not at 20 yards, and not for that many rounds. :D
Without sights!
Without sights!
DOHH!!! (I use the sights)
*Just realized how much time the "E-mail notification" for these threads helps to waste the workday. Yikes!*
searcher 45
09-08-11, 18:02
In the recent IHOP situation, they said that the perp got out of his van and shot a guy on a motorcycle before he even entered the IHOP. This being the case, and had I been in the IHOP, I would have engaged him the second he opened the door into the IHOP if I could.
If that wasn’t the case, if I saw a person walking into a restaurant with an AK in his hands, I think I would challenge him with my gun out and at the low ready. If he made any moves like he was bringing it up, he would get 3 to the chest pretty quick.
There are so many scenarios that we could hash over saying what we would and wouldn’t do, but it just all comes down to having acute situational awareness and then making a hopefully good decision about the threat level. In this case, I don’t think normal people walk into a restaurant with an AK in hand, so I would immediately consider it to be a high threat level and try to get behind some cover so I could then engage from cover if needed.
When I eat out I always want to set so as to watch the front entrance.
In a case like the IHOP shooting the only answer I can see is to use the choke point of the entrance to down the attacker.
A lightly armed CC person up against an assault rifle firing BG or BGs has to use tactics to win, and the the choke point may allow defensive fire before other folks get caught in the cross fire.
Fight the BG or BGs is better IMO than hiding under table waiting to die or running with your back exposed to the shooters gun fire.
Just something to think about!!!!!
That is an excellent rule of thumb indeed. I'm definitely putting that one in the memory bank. You are a wealth of info Wulf! Haha! What would be the best way to go about finding out what "rule of thumb" each state uses for their justifications? Look up old trials from said state?
No. There's a justification clause contained in the criminal code in all states. The Means, Motive and Opportunity rule of thumb comes from the lethal force doctrine taught at both the federal and state level at law enforcement academies across the nation. It's a fairly strict doctrine because in many places police officers are held to a higher standard in the application of force and must often follow a use of force continuum up to and including lethal force.
It essentially means that an officer must be able to justify why all of the lesser applications of force were bypassed in favor of lethal force. I'm my case, I have with the advice of counsel, stated that I chose lethal force because the subject demonstrated that he had the means, motive and opportunity to inflict serious physical injury or death upon myself and the citizenry at large. I teach use of force, firearms and defensive tactics at a large law enforcement training facility alongside other police officers that have been there-done that as well. We all agree that adhering to this kind of higher standard is something that you can't go wrong with. The court will never seek less justification for force.
RogerinTPA
09-08-11, 19:04
Interesting thread....Glad I'm in FL.
I guess I should have clarified what I meant by prefering mobility in open space vs concealment (not cover). What I mean is, I wouldn't stand behind a wall thinking it will stop an AK round (or any round for that matter) and return fire in a static position. Using cover to get a better position on the shooter is definitely a good idea, and is preferable only if the concealment (in this case most likely walls) will allow for that movement. Remember, it is still fairly difficult to hit a moving target with or without training....uless you're SSGGunBunny of course :p
Sidetrack: Zhurdan, I'm very jealous of where you live lol...I went there for vacation in July and it really is the most beautiful state I have ever been too...you can literally smell how clean the air is...plus it was nice coming from Texas' 100+ degree heat to a temp range of high 30's in the morn to 68 tops during the day! I miss it....:D
Just a couple of things from the peanut gallery,
Instead of thinking "When CAN I shoot", start thinking more along the lines of "When MUST I shoot". This alone takes a thousand options down to only two or three i.e. "Myself or another is in imminent danger of Death or Serious Bodily injury."
Next, "Moral" laws come above State laws. If I failed to act because I was worried about what the State Law had to say on the use of Deadly Force, and an innocent bystander got hurt as a result of my inaction, I know I would be psychologically damaged.
Using the "Must Shoot" question above would settle just about every Moral and Legal dilemma. Granted, not all, but most.
I am willing to bet that MOST of us that choose to carry a gun do so for Moral reasons, not legal ones.
When it comes right down to it, "There are worst things than prison or death".
Just my two cents.
Get low and get out if you can. If not, get low and get behind something to engage.
I did my CCW class recently and this was the advice that was drilled into us from the instructor. I like to think this is what I would do but who the hell knows what will go through your mind if you are unfortunate enough to be caught up.
Threads like these are the reason I come to this site, always insightful input from knowledgeable people that gets you thinking.
On a side note, my wife and I always fight over who gets to sit with their back to the wall in a restaurant. She likes to see everything going on. I think we will be sitting side by side more often from here on out.
4x4twenty6
09-08-11, 20:03
Like living with the reality of seeing a child killed after you chose not to do anything. I would have a hard time living with myself if stood by and let innocent people die without intervening.
I would intervene. Just who i am.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 20:54
No. There's a justification clause contained in the criminal code in all states. The Means, Motive and Opportunity rule of thumb comes from the lethal force doctrine taught at both the federal and state level at law enforcement academies across the nation. It's a fairly strict doctrine because in many places police officers are held to a higher standard in the application of force and must often follow a use of force continuum up to and including lethal force.
It essentially means that an officer must be able to justify why all of the lesser applications of force were bypassed in favor of lethal force. I'm my case, I have with the advice of counsel, stated that I chose lethal force because the subject demonstrated that he had the means, motive and opportunity to inflict serious physical injury or death upon myself and the citizenry at large. I teach use of force, firearms and defensive tactics at a large law enforcement training facility alongside other police officers that have been there-done that as well. We all agree that adhering to this kind of higher standard is something that you can't go wrong with. The court will never seek less justification for force.
Your post seems to ridicule my thinking. Pray tell, what has been your experience in lethal force encounters and how did you handle the post incident investigation and subsequent grand jury hearing? If I'm mistaking your tone, my apologies.
:confused:OH No!!! You completely misunderstood sir. That post was as genuine as it gets. You have single handedly given me some of the best knowledge from this thread. Sorry if I came off in a derogatory manner. It surely was not meant. I appreciate every bit of advice you have given us here. Can't say that enough.
2theXtreme
09-08-11, 21:13
When I eat out I always want to set so as to watch the front entrance.
In a case like the IHOP shooting the only answer I can see is to use the choke point of the entrance to down the attacker.
A lightly armed CC person up against an assault rifle firing BG or BGs has to use tactics to win, and the the choke point may allow defensive fire before other folks get caught in the cross fire.
Fight the BG or BGs is better IMO than hiding under table waiting to die or running with your back exposed to the shooters gun fire.
Just something to think about!!!!!
I agree 100% I always try to sit as to be able to see the main entrance and any other possible entry points. Also as far away as I can as to be able to have the maximum amount of time to Assess, React, and possibly Engage before the BG has the chance to act. As someone stated earlier always know where you exits are. The possibilities are endless but being aware may keep you and those around you alive.
Like living with the reality of seeing a child killed after you chose not to do anything. I would have a hard time living with myself if stood by and let innocent people die without intervening.
I would intervene. Just who i am.
This is why I have a tough time saying I will wait until shots are fired. I would not want the death of an innocent person, especially a child to be on my conscience. I said it earlier, but seeing some of the ways you guys suggested handling the situation has me thinking reacting before shots are fired is the best way to go. If he has the Ability, Opportunity and Motivation (Thanks Wulf) then engaging before rounds are fired by the BG would be justified.
:confused:OH No!!! You completely misunderstood sir. That post was as genuine as it gets. You have single handedly given me some of the best knowledge from this thread. Sorry if I came off in a derogatory manner. It surely was not meant. I appreciate every bit of advice you have given us here. Can't say that enough.
No worries. It's the interweb after all and sometimes it's tough to catch the drift of a post. My bad. My post has been edited.
DO NOT EVER VEBALLY CHALLENGE A THREAT, it will get you killed. You will know when you must engage and if you can do it with a overwhelming tactical advantage. If you have tactical advantage,surprise,cover and whatever else you need than engage. It may be better to escape if you dont have tactical advantage.
DO NOT EVER VEBALLY CHALLENGE A THREAT, it will get you killed. You will know when you must engage and if you can do it with a overwhelming tactical advantage. If you have tactical advantage,surprise,cover and whatever else you need than engage. It may be better to escape if you dont have tactical advantage.
I would agree with this if the guy has already started shooting, but if a guy walks in with an AK and you just blast 'em without determining the reason for him carrying the weapon, you will be in some serious crap. You have to justify the shoot before taking action. A guy spraying bullets is a justified reason to shoot without verbalization, but if he is just standing there with an AK, you would be hard pressed to convince a jury it was in self defense.
There is never an absolute in a gunfight...except for maybe you absolutely don't want to get shot! :p
I would agree with this if the guy has already started shooting, but if a guy walks in with an AK and you just blast 'em without determining the reason for him carrying the weapon, you will be in some serious crap. You have to justify the shoot before taking action. A guy spraying bullets is a justified reason to shoot without verbalization, but if he is just standing there with an AK, you would be hard pressed to convince a jury it was in self defense.
There is never an absolute in a gunfight...except for maybe you absolutely don't want to get shot! :p
Agreed. Sjc3081, read my earlier post in this thread regarding the situation in the McDonalds. It will give you some insight.
SSGGunBunny
09-08-11, 23:02
The specific comment of interest was this:
Thats 10 to 14 rounds.
Let's just low-ball this and say that you only have 10 rounders and don't top off, so you have exactly 10 rounds.
That's 5 rounds per second.
Splits of .20 seconds.
Getting all of those shots into even the "C" zone of an IPSC without sights at 20 yards at that cadence is extremely impressive.
I would love to see it.
Is it? Never seemed to impressive compared with other guys I shot with. There were some exceptional marksmen that I have had the privilege to shoot and train with. I don't know anything about IPSC or IDPA, I don't compete and haven't ever competed other than some on the range spur of the moment stuff to see who was buying beer.
We just practiced a lot to learn our weapons and once you have hand eye coordination down and know where those rounds tend to go it just takes practice with the same weapon. I can't do it with any pistol I pick up, I have to be married to it, meaning I have shot that particular weapon a lot. The Glock 21 SF I have is by far the quickest to become proficient with, for me that weapon was dead on out of the box.
I practice without aiming after the first few mags to determine if I need to adjust. After that I fire hundreds of rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger without losing control of the weapon, when I have the weapon into my line of sight with the target and then moving the target 5 meters or so at a time after I check it. When I start pulling shots I stay at that range and practice until I don't. The next time I take my wife to the range I will have her film it.
You all know that the standard Army pistol marksmanship range is a rapid fire course with targets out to 25 yards? 20 yards is only about 18 meters, I can throw a grenade and hit a guy or drop it at his feet at that range.
Can I hit a moving target with a pistol at that range in the torso? I have...it isn't as consistent as a stationary but I have hit sliders and pop ups on ranges and down the hall of a shoot house at around 15 to 18 meters in the chest with a 9mm paint round. I never fired my pistol in Afghanistan, only my M4.
SSGGunBunny
09-08-11, 23:10
Seeing some of the comments about incompetent soldiers showing up at some of the training classes you all conduct, I am starting to think I was extremely privileged or lucky to get the unit assignments I did. I was nothing special, just a light infantry grunt but every unit I got assigned to took the job and training seriously. We lived on ranges and constantly trained with our weapons. They sent NCOs to schools - some taught by the Assymetrical Warfare Group on Combat Applications, basically ways to conduct intense combat stress training for teams taught by retired SOCOM guys. We shot 1000 rounds through our M4s at ranges up to 500 meters that week alone after doing wind sprints through buddy team ranges with full armor/kit. When we returned we ran our company through that same training for months.
Rattlehead
09-09-11, 00:23
I practice without aiming after the first few mags to determine if I need to adjust.
What?
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 00:24
I would agree with this if the guy has already started shooting, but if a guy walks in with an AK and you just blast 'em without determining the reason for him carrying the weapon, you will be in some serious crap. You have to justify the shoot before taking action. A guy spraying bullets is a justified reason to shoot without verbalization, but if he is just standing there with an AK, you would be hard pressed to convince a jury it was in self defense.
There is never an absolute in a gunfight...except for maybe you absolutely don't want to get shot! :p
I totally agree as well for the same reasons as Wulf. Could be what I like to call an Innocent Dumbass like in his Mc Ds story. If the BG hasn't shouldered or raised his weapon and you draw and cover him and order it to the ground any aggressive move he makes you have the upper hand and are in a better position to fire. If the BG's weapon is already shouldered and raised no words need to be exchanged. That is reason enough to dispatch the threat.
No worries. It's the interweb after all and sometimes it's tough to catch the drift of a post. My bad. My post has been edited.
No harm no foul. I edited my post as well to make it seem a little less assholeish. Keep the posts coming!
In Arizona, before a civilian (non-LEO) is justified in using deadly force when the following exist:
1. the threatened use or use of deadly force
2. The deadly force must be illegal, and
3. the deadly force must present an immediate threat.
So, one must recognize that the situation contains the threatened or actual use of immediate illegal deadly force before he is justified to use deadly force. This justification applies to either yourself or third persons. ARS 13-401 et. seq.
For a civilian, a determination of "Means, Motive and Opportunity" is irrelevant. That is way to subjective (how can one know another motive - in the shooting at issue, there is still no known motive of the shooter) and does not involve the threatened use or use of immediate illegal deadly force.
Whether that fact situation exists is defined by a reasonable man standard. That is a jury must decide whether these conditions existed when you decide to your deadly force.
Is the guy showing his AK off to his military buddies, presenting it for sale to a third party in the shop or intending to open up on what he considers his demons? Or is he a LEO using a weapon within his law enforcement duties? When you decide, you bet your freedom on this issue.
Without more, seeing a guy just walk into a cafe with a rifle, in Arizona isn't enough for me to consider using deadly force. What is the difference between a guy with an open carry pistol and an open carry rifle? I doubt I would have seen him before he actually entered the building. But, if he manifested external signs of intending to shoot, such as loading a magazine, chambering a round or shouldering/aiming the rifle without identifying himself, I would feel justified in using force. But, these conditions apply to a pistol as well as a rifle. I fear that shots would have been fired before my self preservation instincts kicked in.
This is a hugely difficult situation. Each person must decide his own course of conduct under such situations.
God rest the souls of the people who died that day.
Another thing to consider is haven chosen to engage a threat, what then happens if LEO's come through the door responding and you are holding a gun in your hand? In a moment where the adrenaline is rushing and judgement could be off, you might end up on the wrong end also.
My first priority is my family, the second is making sure I am around to be there for them.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 00:51
In Arizona, before a civilian (non-LEO) is justified in using deadly force when the following exist:
1. the threatened use or use of deadly force
2. The deadly force must be illegal, and
3. the deadly force must present an immediate threat.
So, one must recognize that the situation contains the threatened or actual use of immediate illegal deadly force before he is justified to use deadly force. This justification applies to either yourself or third persons. ARS 13-401 et. seq.
For a civilian, a determination of "Means, Motive and Opportunity" is irrelevant. That is way to subjective (how can one know another motive - in the shooting at issue, there is still no known motive of the shooter) and does not involve the threatened use or use of immediate illegal deadly force.
Whether that fact situation exists is defined by a reasonable man standard. That is a jury must decide whether these conditions existed when you decide to your deadly force.
Is the guy showing his AK off to his military buddies, presenting it for sale to a third party in the shop or intending to open up on what he considers his demons? Or is he a LEO using a weapon within his law enforcement duties? When you decide, you bet your freedom on this issue.
Without more, seeing a guy just walk into a cafe with a rifle, in Arizona isn't enough for me to consider using deadly force. What is the difference between a guy with an open carry pistol and an open carry rifle? I doubt I would have seen him before he actually entered the building. But, if he manifested external signs of intending to shoot, such as loading a magazine, chambering a round or shouldering/aiming the rifle without identifying himself, I would feel justified in using force. But, these conditions apply to a pistol as well as a rifle. I fear that shots would have been fired before my self preservation instincts kicked in.
This is a hugely difficult situation. Each person must decide his own course of conduct under such situations.
God rest the souls of the people who died that day.
That is understood but as has been said before. If you see the threat enter just "carrying" his weapon drawing and getting down to the reason he is yielding a weapon in a public place is not illegal. If he raises that gun then he has just met all three of your requirements.
Rattlehead
09-09-11, 01:05
Another thing to consider is haven chosen to engage a threat, what then happens if LEO's come through the door responding and you are holding a gun in your hand? In a moment where the adrenaline is rushing and judgement could be off, you might end up on the wrong end also.
My first priority is my family, the second is making sure I am around to be there for them.
Hopefully you would have time to safely re-holster your carry gun before the police arrive at the scene. If they did arrive at the scene, I would immediately drop the gun, and not point it at or in their general direction, at all.
If you dialed 911, then you tell them you (who hopefully has a CCW) are armed on scene.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 01:13
Hopefully you would have time to safely re-holster your carry gun before the police arrive at the scene. If they did arrive at the scene, I would immediately drop the gun, and not point it at or in their general direction, at all.
If you dialed 911, then you tell them you (who hopefully has a CCW) are armed on scene.
If time provides you the opportunity then you should have a loved one (pre-planned) or another civvy dial 911 and have them inform the officers responding you are an armed permit carrier and you are going to engage the threat. By then it will probably be over. Have them say what race you are and what you are wearing so they can identify you. Make no sudden moves when the officers arrive and follow all instructions.
My first and foremost priority in the scenario you have painted is to get my family out of harm's way immediately by moving them with haste out of that building via the closest egress point (door or window). All other considerations are completely secondary until that has occurred. That said, there are a million "what ifs" that could occur during that movement. I might have to engage him while moving my family out because he raised the weapon toward myself or another and thereby caused me to believe that he was going to cause serious physical injury or death to me or another. I can't say exactly how that situation would play out for me. All I can tell you is that my first thoughts would be for the safety of my family in that scenario and getting out would be my top priority.
Let me share a story that occurred in my city (in Arizona) in the late 1990's. A 19 year old kid and his 20 year old friend decided it would be cool to exercise their right to carry a shotgun openly while walking down the street. So they walked three blocks down a busy road in broad daylight to a McDonald's. Each carrying a pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge. They entered the McDonald's and walked up to the counter to place their orders. There were 11 people in the restaurant and six employees.
Not a single person said a word about the shotguns and their orders were placed, despite the fact that everyone interviewed later said that the guns scared them and made them nervous. One woman said: "I just figured they were robbing the place." Just as they were getting ready to pay for their order, an off duty federal agent walked into the McDonalds and saw the men with the guns. He drew from concealment, moved to cover and ordered the guns and them to the ground. One guy complied and the other argued. Later, the agent told officers that he was taking up the trigger slack on his Glock when the kid finally went to the ground and complied.
Officers arrived and detained the guys with the guns and got to the bottom of the situation. They had broken no laws and the McDonalds manager was not interested in filing a disorderly conduct complaint for the disruption of his business against them. He simply said: "Get them out of here before somebody really does get killed."
That incident is something I use to this day to train police recruits. I try to show them that sometimes things are not what they seem to be. I also show them the sheep mentality of the workers and the patrons and try to stress to them that anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing.
If you find yourself in a situation like this, your first thoughts should go something like this:
1) Secure my family
2) Get to cover
3) Get help. Either call 911 yourself or have a family member call
4) Get involved if can do so from a safe position while still affording your family protection.
5) Exercise good weapons and muzzle discipline and do not have a drawn weapon conspicuously displayed if at all possible. Officers will be looking for people with guns and they will be on alert. Don't risk a friendly fire incident.
Well stated Sir.
I didnt mean to lead, that I would fire upon a person open carrying a longun. I meant if you determin you must engage,than engage or escape. But never verbally challenge it is just to dangerous and blows your tactical advantage. You will need the edge when firing on a person armed with a longun with your pistol.
Another thing to consider is haven chosen to engage a threat, what then happens if LEO's come through the door responding and you are holding a gun in your hand? In a moment where the adrenaline is rushing and judgement could be off, you might end up on the wrong end also.
My first priority is my family, the second is making sure I am around to be there for them.
Once the situation is under control and the threat has been stopped there's no reason for the weapon to be in your hand. At that point you can re-holster.
What's paramount also is that the someone let the police know that a CCW holder or a civilian with weapon (give a description) has engaged the threat and is still at the location.
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 06:00
If a person can get the jump on the BG i would definitely advise them to give commands for the BG to put the gun down. I think most people will identify with the commands being given and understand that you are a GG and their to help them.
Think about your appearance also. If you are dressed like you have some sense and dont look like a total assclown that will also be in your favor.
I highly doubt that applies to a vast majority of folks here in this forum. But just food for thought.
In bold.
In Arizona, before a civilian(non-LEO) is justified in using deadly force when the following exist:
1. the threatened use or use of deadly force
This is means/motive in one clause. Motive could be pointing a gun or saying "I'm going to kill you" while holding a gun. Both examples show means and motive. If he's using deadly force, he obviously has the means and motive is implied.
2. The deadly force must be illegal, and
Exclusion for the lawful use of deadly force
3. the deadly force must present an immediate threat
Opportunity
So, one must recognize that the situation contains the threatened or actual use of immediate illegal deadly force before he is justified to use deadly force. This justification applies to either yourself or third persons. ARS 13-401 et. seq.
For a civilian], a determination of "Means, Motive and Opportunity" is irrelevant. That is way to subjective (how can one know another motive - in the shooting at issue, there is still no known motive of the shooter) and does not involve the threatened use or use of immediate illegal deadly force.
I was a police officer in Arizona for 23 years. Means, Motive, Opportunity and Exclusion are what your state law is based on. Police officers are held to the same standard as civilians there, but for the fact that officers have further restrictions placed on them by their agency policies in the form of a continuum.
Whether that fact situation exists is defined by a reasonable man standard. That is a jury must decide whether these conditions existed when you decide to your deadly force.
Is the guy showing his AK off to his military buddies, presenting it for sale to a third party in the shop or intending to open up on what he considers his demons? Or is he a LEO using a weapon within his law enforcement duties? When you decide, you bet your freedom on this issue.
Without more, seeing a guy just walk into a cafe with a rifle, in Arizona isn't enough for me to consider using deadly force. What is the difference between a guy with an open carry pistol and an open carry rifle? I doubt I would have seen him before he actually entered the building. But, if he manifested external signs of intending to shoot, such as loading a magazine, chambering a round or shouldering/aiming the rifle without identifying himself, I would feel justified in using force. But, these conditions apply to a pistol as well as a rifle. I fear that shots would have been fired before my self preservation instincts kicked in.
This is a hugely difficult situation. Each person must decide his own course of conduct under such situations.
God rest the souls of the people who died that day.
QuietShootr
09-09-11, 08:44
Is it? Never seemed to impressive compared with other guys I shot with. There were some exceptional marksmen that I have had the privilege to shoot and train with. I don't know anything about IPSC or IDPA, I don't compete and haven't ever competed other than some on the range spur of the moment stuff to see who was buying beer.
We just practiced a lot to learn our weapons and once you have hand eye coordination down and know where those rounds tend to go it just takes practice with the same weapon. I can't do it with any pistol I pick up, I have to be married to it, meaning I have shot that particular weapon a lot. The Glock 21 SF I have is by far the quickest to become proficient with, for me that weapon was dead on out of the box.
I practice without aiming after the first few mags to determine if I need to adjust. After that I fire hundreds of rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger without losing control of the weapon, when I have the weapon into my line of sight with the target and then moving the target 5 meters or so at a time after I check it. When I start pulling shots I stay at that range and practice until I don't. The next time I take my wife to the range I will have her film it.
You all know that the standard Army pistol marksmanship range is a rapid fire course with targets out to 25 yards? 20 yards is only about 18 meters, I can throw a grenade and hit a guy or drop it at his feet at that range.
Can I hit a moving target with a pistol at that range in the torso? I have...it isn't as consistent as a stationary but I have hit sliders and pop ups on ranges and down the hall of a shoot house at around 15 to 18 meters in the chest with a 9mm paint round. I never fired my pistol in Afghanistan, only my M4.
If you'll video it, I'll send you a PACT Club timer so you can show us. If you can do a string of 13 shots with all A-zone hits, at 20 yards, with all the splits .20 or less, you can keep the timer.
ETA: That's going to look something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taxzwdnCfhc&feature=related
Or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWSvjgNOJyo&NR=1
I knew this was only a matter of time before he got called out.
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 09:45
You are better than me quietshootr, i would just give him a thumbs up. haha!
We had a drill on swat where with our rifles we did the following:
-We shot 2 rds standing strong side from behind cover.
-Transition to our off hand and fire 2 rds off side from cover still standing.
-Drop down to prone position and fire 2 rds. Underneath our simulated cover to simulate a 12inch high opening or the space underneath a vehicle and such.
We used a TQ-19 target and it had to be in the gray shaded 2 pt. area. nothing in the black or off silhoutte.
We used a 4ft wide frame and a piece of plywood on moveable stands to simulate the cover with it being about 12inches off the ground to shoot underneath.
All done in 2.5 seconds! I swear we all did it!
NO NO, I KID I KID!
We had to do it in 6 seeconds. Everyone except for our K-9 and Doctor did it. Very fun drill. We werent sure if we could do it at first and i had to do it a few times before i got the rythm. The thing that slowed people down was the transition to off hand and then immediately dropping to prone.
We had been training outside in the heat all day and one of our operators was transitioning and his sling got caught up and his finger found its way to the trigger and blasted dirt all over us. I brought this up on another thread about hitting that safety switch cuz all kinds of funky things can happen when doing this type of training. We all called index and brought it in to discuss it. It takes literally no time away from you, to manipulate that safety while transitioning. I was able to do it and as were the rest of the guys especially after what happened.
Once the situation is under control and the threat has been stopped there's no reason for the weapon to be in your hand. At that point you can re-holster.
What's paramount also is that the someone let the police know that a CCW holder or a civilian with weapon (give a description) has engaged the threat and is still at the location.
What if the situation is not under control and two or three officers enter the building/area and see two shooters? I am guessing most of the time the officers would figure it out but the one time they do not is what concerns me. I'm not sure how much of a reality this could be but it is something I think about.
searcher 45
09-09-11, 13:10
If you are a CC armed civilian up against a AK armed BG, the least of your worries at that events time frame will be the police who maybe minutes or longer away.
As to legally armed folks with long gun in a public place; while not a mind reader, it should be obvious from the actions of the person with long gun as to what action needs to be taken be bystanders ( armed CC or unarmed folks).
WHO to say, if you as a CC do not act to defeat the heaver armed BG that he will not just kill you out of hand any way.
Set there or crawl under table or run away and wait for him to shoot you or your love ones in the back, I say "NO THANK YOU SIR"!!!!!
The CC may not win but the BG will know he was in a fight for his life.
-Officer notification (if you get pulled over). In Wyo, you don't have to say a word. In Utah, they generally already know when they run your plate, but you are obligated to state that you have a permit and a gun... (IN THAT ORDER, preferably, as to not alarm them.)
I was taught in my Utah CFP class that it was a courtesy to the officer to notify him and strongly suggested, not required by law. Has this changed? Do you know the utah code for it? Thanks.
If you'll video it, I'll send you a PACT Club timer so you can show us. If you can do a string of 13 shots with all A-zone hits, at 20 yards, with all the splits .20 or less, you can keep the timer.
Hate to nitpick, but have to add
without using the sights.
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 13:56
Coming from a LEO, i greatly appreciate when someone tells me that they are carrying or have a ccw.
If it is a minor traffic offense, clean record and the person isnt being a douche, they get sent on their way.
It may keep you out of a ticket, its worth a try. Also, dont lie.
We hate being lied to.
I was taught in my Utah CFP class that it was a courtesy to the officer to notify him and strongly suggested, not required by law. Has this changed? Do you know the utah code for it? Thanks.
I don't, but will look. Talked with a State Trooper concerning this issue. He told me that it was required. Glad I checked, see below. Can't always take someones word for it, thanks for giving me a reason to double check.
INFO* Proposed in HB129 Requirement to notify. Defeated and returned to House Committee
Also see http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQ.html#2
According to that, it is as you stated... advised.
I learn something new every day!
ETA* Apparently the Bureau of Investigations was incorrect regarding establishments serving alcohol too. Wow, I feel like there should be a Rainbow colored star streaking over my head right now... "The more you knowwwww...."
QuietShootr
09-09-11, 14:27
Hate to nitpick, but have to add
without using the sights.
Feh. USE the sights. Whatever.
What if the situation is not under control and two or three officers enter the building/area and see two shooters? I am guessing most of the time the officers would figure it out but the one time they do not is what concerns me. I'm not sure how much of a reality this could be but it is something I think about.
I hear you. That's when you need to communicate. Just because you're engaging someone doesn't mean you don't communicate, actually you need to communicate your ass off. Tell who ever is calling 911, I'm sure there will be plenty to tell police you're a good guy and give a description. This way they'll be on the look out for you.
There's an inherent danger to being a CCW holder or carrying a weapon whether for a living or for protection, one need to accept that or not carry at all. It's just the way the world turns.
I'm sure there will be plenty to tell police you're a good guy and give a description.
Don't count on this. Police dispatchers, particularly in large cities, are fed information from 911 call takers. If one person transposes the suspect description and your description, you're in trouble. I have seen that happen several times. Also, during an active shooter incident people are likely going to be freaking out and squirting all over the place. The same two people can witness the same incident and give two wildly different tales. Further, Joe McCracke the plumber might be getting coffee at the Stop-'N-Rob around the block, hear the gun shots and call 911. If he pokes his head around the corner and all he sees is you firing a gun at something he can't see, that's what the 911 call taker will report. You shooting a gun.
Unless you are literally trading fire to defend your life against the bad guy, your gun needs to be as inconspicuous as possible. When the cops arrive, make it invisible and be a good witness. Try to write things down if you can and once the smoke settles and medics are on scene, direct the officers to any evidence like shell casings, mags etc. Also, if you fired your weapon and you are still nearby, try to mark the locations where you fired from and find your brass if you can so that it can be pointed out to the officers. This will help them rope off the area and preserve the scene. Don't let ghetto princesses and other dingbats walk off with your evidence. I've seen that happen too.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 15:41
What if the situation is not under control and two or three officers enter the building/area and see two shooters? I am guessing most of the time the officers would figure it out but the one time they do not is what concerns me. I'm not sure how much of a reality this could be but it is something I think about.
As soon as I saw officers arriving on scene, if I wasn't actively engaged with the BG or directly in harms way then my weapon is probably going away, situation dictated of course. If I havn't mitigated the situation by the time police arrive then I am probably not going to need my weapon now that they are there. I'd let the officers do their job and I am getting to a safer place. The LAST thing I want is an officer seeing me with a gun in my hand. Communicated or not their adrenaline is pumping just like yours,mine, ours and mistakes can easily be made.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 15:51
Don't count on this. Police dispatchers, particularly in large cities, are fed information from 911 call takers. If one person transposes the suspect description and your description, you're in trouble. I have seen that happen several times. Also, during an active shooter incident people are likely going to be freaking out and squirting all over the place. The same two people can witness the same incident and give two wildly different tales. Further, Joe McCracke the plumber might be getting coffee at the Stop-'N-Rob around the block, hear the gun shots and call 911. If he pokes his head around the corner and all he sees is you firing a gun at something he can't see, that's what the 911 call taker will report. You shooting a gun.
Unless you are literally trading fire to defend your life against the bad guy, your gun needs to be as inconspicuous as possible. When the cops arrive, make it invisible and be a good witness. Try to write things down if you can and once the smoke settles and medics are on scene, direct the officers to any evidence like shell casings, mags etc. Also, if you fired your weapon and you are still nearby, try to mark the locations where you fired from and find your brass if you can so that it can be pointed out to the officers. This will help them rope off the area and preserve the scene. Don't let ghetto princesses and other dingbats walk off with your evidence. I've seen that happen too.
It is always nice to get the opinion of someone that has actually seen these things happen first hand.
I have always been told that you should wait until you calm down, a few hours or so, before you try to tell your story to the police. As an officer, does this bother you guys or is it understood and you guys are okay with it? Have you ever seen anybody try and tell their story too soon, get it all wrong and seem conspicuous?
Don't count on this. Police dispatchers, particularly in large cities, are fed information from 911 call takers. If one person transposes the suspect description and your description, you're in trouble. I have seen that happen several times. Also, during an active shooter incident people are likely going to be freaking out and squirting all over the place. The same two people can witness the same incident and give two wildly different tales. Further, Joe McCracke the plumber might be getting coffee at the Stop-'N-Rob around the block, hear the gun shots and call 911. If he pokes his head around the corner and all he sees is you firing a gun at something he can't see, that's what the 911 call taker will report. You shooting a gun.
Unless you are literally trading fire to defend your life against the bad guy, your gun needs to be as inconspicuous as possible. When the cops arrive, make it invisible and be a good witness. Try to write things down if you can and once the smoke settles and medics are on scene, direct the officers to any evidence like shell casings, mags etc. Also, if you fired your weapon and you are still nearby, try to mark the locations where you fired from and find your brass if you can so that it can be pointed out to the officers. This will help them rope off the area and preserve the scene. Don't let ghetto princesses and other dingbats walk off with your evidence. I've seen that happen too.
You make some good points. I think I'm giving people too much credit to get it right and making assumptions, with my ass hanging in the breeze, not a good idea. Again good points.
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 16:53
You will have some good dispatchers/call takers but most of the time they are incompetent.
At my old dept the supervisor and 2 others were awesome. The rest could choke on a D. Dont trust your life with them cuz you are surely ****ed.
I don't, but will look. Talked with a State Trooper concerning this issue. He told me that it was required. Glad I checked, see below. Can't always take someones word for it, thanks for giving me a reason to double check.
INFO* Proposed in HB129 Requirement to notify. Defeated and returned to House Committee
Also see http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQ.html#2
According to that, it is as you stated... advised.
I learn something new every day!
ETA* Apparently the Bureau of Investigations was incorrect regarding establishments serving alcohol too. Wow, I feel like there should be a Rainbow colored star streaking over my head right now... "The more you knowwwww...."
Excellent, thanks for posting that. Wanted to make sure I hadn't broken any laws. Last time I was pulled over, the officer didn't give me time to explain I was a CFP holder, but he didn't seem to mind once he looked it up. There was that big deal in Ohio where the anti-carry cops were cutting off people trying to notify then hammering them with weapons charges. Sorry for the thread jacking.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 17:30
Excellent, thanks for posting that. Wanted to make sure I hadn't broken any laws. Last time I was pulled over, the officer didn't give me time to explain I was a CFP holder, but he didn't seem to mind once he looked it up. There was that big deal in Ohio where the anti-carry cops were cutting off people trying to notify then hammering them with weapons charges. Sorry for the thread jacking.
No thread jack here. That is some good info to know. Me personally whether I am leaglly required to or not I am going to let the officer know I am carrying. Just out of courtesy.
I never let them know I'm carrying unless it comes up, if he asks then it's full disclosure, otherwise i feel like it might cause more unnecessary tension.
I never let them know I'm carrying unless it comes up, if he asks then it's full disclosure, otherwise i feel like it might cause more unnecessary tension.
Ohhh, I dunno. I've not been pulled over many times, but the times I have been, the conversation about guns usually overrides the conversation about how fast I was going and I get sent on my happy way, sans ticket.
Sold that car, so haven't had the need lately.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 17:46
I never let them know I'm carrying unless it comes up, if he asks then it's full disclosure, otherwise i feel like it might cause more unnecessary tension.
Really? Are cops a little more uptight in florida or what? Doesn't seem it would be an issue here in Vegas. Although I have yet to have to disclose that information.
Really? Are cops a little more uptight in florida or what? Doesn't seem it would be an issue here in Vegas. Although I have yet to have to disclose that information.
You know that's a good question. i think it's more of a mindset down here, one just doesn't volunteer the information. But if they ask, then again I'm all about telling them what I have and where it is. Doing this Ive never had an issue and all the cops I've done this with have been cool.
Another thing I always do when I get pulled over is roll down my windows and put both my hands ontop of the steering wheel. I'm not sure if this had any impact in his attitude and his treating me, but regardless anything I can do to put him a bit more at ease or let him know I'm not a threat at all, I'll do.
2theXtreme
09-09-11, 18:36
You know that's a good question. i think it's more of a mindset down here, one just doesn't volunteer the information. But if they ask, then again I'm all about telling them what I have and where it is. Doing this Ive never had an issue and all the cops I've done this with have been cool.
Another thing I always do when I get pulled over is roll down my windows and put both my hands ontop of the steering wheel. I'm not sure if this had any impact in his attitude and his treating me, but regardless anything I can do to put him a bit more at ease or let him know I'm not a threat at all, I'll do.
Understood. To each their own. As long as it's legal either way is perfectly fine.
SSGGunBunny
09-11-11, 18:11
I'm not sure what you classify these zones but for infantry we only care about one zone and that's kill. I don't shoot at plates or circles (unless it's reflexive fire drills) I shoot at man sized torsos and if I hit liver, lung, kidney or heart they are all I care about. I could care less if anyone believes I can empty my mag into a stationary torso at 20 yards but I can. Don't give a crap about split times or mathmetics, I pull the trigger as rapidly as I can control the point of impact.
20 yards isn't even the maximum distance on our qualification at a standard pop up torso, it's not a hard shot. I have run those ranges and 80% of the holes in a fresh 20 yard target are hits that would require a trauma team or a mortician. That's with novice shooters we train too. As far as sights, outside of rifles firing at distance I do not use them, except when verifying where the pistol likes to hit. Some are dead on, some I have fired tend to pull when aiming center mass. Once I know what the pistol does, I no longer need the sights. I don't care about shot groups or scores, I only care about hitting threats quickly and instinctively.
The infantry has long been moving in this direction. People who worry about sight pictures and aiming often miss when time is an issue and when you kick in the door of a mud hut in crapistan and meet the barrel of an AK - time is always an issue. Trust your hands and eyes to be able to hit the target, practice and it is not at all difficult or magical. I think people tale crap way too literally and definitely over analyze, I said I can empty the mag in 2 seconds, maybe it's 3 or 4 - I don't time myself. I don't see the point of it, in my world it doesn't matter. If I walk away and mr AK is lying there with 4 shots in him, I win. Ask him what the split was, he will tell you his spleen and left lung.
4x4twenty6
09-11-11, 18:41
As a LEO I have to worry about friendlies more than say an infantry team raiding a mud hut with known BG's in there. I am not familiar with military SOP and such so I am merely making an assumption.
I think LEO training should be much much more difficult. But the fact of the matter is that there would probably only be about half as many of us if that were the case.
If you are confident in your ability then I guess I wouldnt worry about what the rest of us say but the original statement seemed like a stretch is all. On swat we did some timed drills that seemed impossible to me based on never having done them. But I discovered that in just a few seconds you could some pretty cool shit.
gents,
please refrain from pissing matches. That is a sure way to get this thread locked.
Also, I believe the most appropriate title for this thread would be "When a suspect becomes a threat". Simply because when decided that someone is a threat he needs to be engaged yesterday.
I'm not sure what you classify these zones but for infantry we only care about one zone and that's kill. I don't shoot at plates or circles (unless it's reflexive fire drills) I shoot at man sized torsos and if I hit liver, lung, kidney or heart they are all I care about. I could care less if anyone believes I can empty my mag into a stationary torso at 20 yards but I can. Don't give a crap about split times or mathmetics, I pull the trigger as rapidly as I can control the point of impact.
20 yards isn't even the maximum distance on our qualification at a standard pop up torso, it's not a hard shot. I have run those ranges and 80% of the holes in a fresh 20 yard target are hits that would require a trauma team or a mortician. That's with novice shooters we train too. As far as sights, outside of rifles firing at distance I do not use them, except when verifying where the pistol likes to hit. Some are dead on, some I have fired tend to pull when aiming center mass. Once I know what the pistol does, I no longer need the sights. I don't care about shot groups or scores, I only care about hitting threats quickly and instinctively.
The infantry has long been moving in this direction. People who worry about sight pictures and aiming often miss when time is an issue and when you kick in the door of a mud hut in crapistan and meet the barrel of an AK - time is always an issue. Trust your hands and eyes to be able to hit the target, practice and it is not at all difficult or magical. I think people tale crap way too literally and definitely over analyze, I said I can empty the mag in 2 seconds, maybe it's 3 or 4 - I don't time myself. I don't see the point of it, in my world it doesn't matter. If I walk away and mr AK is lying there with 4 shots in him, I win. Ask him what the split was, he will tell you his spleen and left lung.
You make some valid points. But at the same time you're missing a few points.
One of the main reasons to train to use your sights and to develop that muscle memory, not only with arms, hands, lower body but also with your eyes, is to ingrain all that into a natural motion, natural alignment, so if you don't use or can't use your sights you'll still have somewhat good sight alignment.
From what you're telling us you know what it's like to go through a door with some asshole on the other side, so you know that under that extreme duress your shot group will open up. It happens to every one. If you train right off the bat to not use your sights what do you think will happen to your shot groups then ?
Do I think knowing how to point shoot is a good idea, personally, I do, but I think it needs to be practiced in the right context and only after having solid, very solid fundamentals.
As far as speed goes, again IMO, I don't think people train enough at it and certainly don't understand the extreme importance of it. I think most are more concerned with shooting pretty little holes and feeling good about their training than they are about speeding things up and watching their groups reasonably open up. That's when it's the instructors responsibility to push the students out of that comfort zone, train them and teach them the importance of speed in a fight, and in my experience I really haven't seen that. With that said though, it's hard for an instructor to push speed on students when they don't have the accuracy down yet or their fundamentals aren't solid enough to move on to more demanding shooting.
QuietShootr
09-11-11, 20:06
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/Indum/MalSpeechless.gif
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/Indum/MalSpeechless.gif
HAHAHA! post of the day and exactly how I feel...must...not....reply :blink:
NCPatrolAR
09-15-11, 08:06
I'm not sure what you classify these zones but for infantry we only care about one zone and that's kill.
If that is true then why are you content with pistol shots that hit anywhere on the torso? Last time I checked; a shot to the kidney, liver, and often the lung are far from "kill" shots. Seems like if you were concerned with "kill" shots then you would strive to put your rounds in the upper chest and, when applicable, the head since these two target areas are most often the quickest route to stopping someone when using a handgun.
I don't shoot at plates or circles (unless it's reflexive fire drills) I shoot at man sized torsos and if I hit liver, lung, kidney or heart they are all I care about.
Sounds like you are content with being a medicore shooter.
20 yards isn't even the maximum distance on our qualification at a standard pop up torso, it's not a hard shot. I have run those ranges and 80% of the holes in a fresh 20 yard target are hits that would require a trauma team or a mortician. That's with novice shooters we train too.
When shooting pop-ups unless something has changed from when I was in, any hit on the target is considered a hit. I would hardly consider that a good thing. Also, having been issued a M9 while on AD and being trained with it; I find it hard to believe novice shooters are scoring what most here would consider solid hits when shooting the M9. I know it certainly wasnt happening when I was in.
I no longer need the sights.
With what appears to be very loose accuracy standards I can see why you dont need them. Let me ask you this; how often do you successfully make low percentage shots without using the sights? Or do you not train for those?
I don't care about shot groups or scores, I only care about hitting threats quickly and instinctively.
As has been pointed out; your groups will never be as good as they are when you're on the square range. So if you are content with simply hitting anywhere on a torso then chances are that a number of your shots will be hitting everywhere other than your intended impact area. Being concerned with groups leads you to being a better shooter.
People who worry about sight pictures and aiming often miss when time is an issue
They do? There's a plethora of people that would disagree with you.
and when you kick in the door of a mud hut in crapistan and meet the barrel of an AK - time is always an issue.
As is stopping a threat in the quickest manner possible. You can put rounds on target in a rapid manner, but if they are solid, fight stopping hits, then all you are doin gis prolonging the engagement.
... I don't time myself. I don't see the point of it, in my world it doesn't matter.
Timing yourself allows you to see where you currently stand skill-wise and gives you a bar to measure yourself by in order to improve yourself. If you are carrying a gun for protection, then having means of making yourself certainly does matter.
Ask him what the split was, he will tell you his spleen and left lung.
Lame.
In line with thread, there is a lot of good thinking in here. The ROE concept is a good place to start. Escalation of force, both with what you have availible and is legal, should be planned out, researched, and rehearsed. There is never time to make a plan when things happen. Only time to execute one.
Heavy sigh. and derail...........
Well, apparently not all Infantry is equal.
For promotion point quals yes, all hits count. Good job. I am waiting for the "minute-of-badguy" accuracy justification. Please don't use the Army's woefully inadequate Qualification standards to justify your skills.
40 man sized targets from 50 to 300meters. 23 to qualify, 36+ for expert. This combined with a target sequence deigned to make you feel better about yourself and get higher numbers for the powerpoint for the honcho's.
Its like scoring a 180 PT test. Good job, you passed. Stud? no sir.
And for the record,
Gun Bunny is slang for Artillery...... So, yeah.
In line with thread, there is a lot of good thinking in here. The ROE concept is a good place to start. Escalation of force, both with what you have availible and is legal, should be planned out, researched, and rehearsed. There is never time to make a plan when things happen. Only time to execute one.
Heavy sigh. and derail...........
Well, apparently not all Infantry is equal.
For promotion point quals yes, all hits count. Good job. I am waiting for the "minute-of-badguy" accuracy justification. Please don't use the Army's woefully inadequate Qualification standards to justify your skills.
40 man sized targets from 50 to 300meters. 23 to qualify, 36+ for expert. This combined with a target sequence deigned to make you feel better about yourself and get higher numbers for the powerpoint for the honcho's.
Its like scoring a 180 PT test. Good job, you passed. Stud? no sir.
And for the record,
Gun Bunny is slang for Artillery...... So, yeah.
I was wondering about the slang as well. I was one of the 13B's that was back door drafted into performing an infantry mission in Iraq and would never claim to be MOS qualified in the infantry. When you combine the king of battle with the queen of battle, you get the transvestite of battle.
QuietShootr
09-15-11, 10:12
I was wondering about the slang as well. I was one of the 13B's that was back door drafted into performing an infantry mission in Iraq and would never claim to be MOS qualified in the infantry. When you combine the king of battle with the queen of battle, you get the transvestite of battle.
Gonna make somebody mad here, but if you didn't go through the whole BSFB experience, you ain't an 11B.
That's all I have to say about that.
My opinion probably doesn't matter much, as people will have their own opinions and such, but here is my $.02 anyways..
When to Engage a Threat; When I was in Afghanistan this last deployment, we had regular afghan bob walking around with AK's doesn't make him a bad guy. He just wants to protect his home just as anyone of us does in America. So bad bro over there, can legally be walking around with an AK and there isn't a thing we can do about it, even if we know he's an enemy. The point where we can engage the threat, is when he displays hostile intent and the willingness to cause immediate harm to either myself or a friend. It is at that point in time where we are allowed to engage and neutralize him. Same applies to back home. A dude walks into IHOP with a gun, until he decided to raise it in a hostile manner, he's gonna be munching down on some pancakes. And under the US constitution, he has a legal right to (within reason).
Kill Shots; Yeah everyone has been trained for the two in the chest and one in the head, well that's all fine and dandy if your SEAL team 6 or whatever and have enough training to do that. But I know that just with the skill set that I've accumulated over the years, it's much simpler than that. For room clearing and too close for comfort fighting, double tap repeat as necessary and aim up and down along the spinal column with main points in the head and heart. At longer ranges, face shoot the ****er if the opportunity arises. Nothing is more De-moralizing than having your Kuni's head splatter across your face while your fighting against us.
Just my thoughts.
I agree with the first part.
But if your training and standards match the Army's the "shoot them in the face" is going to be a tall order.
Now, if you have set up your personal ROE and EOF rules, you must be capable, as in hardware, skill set, and basic fitness, to achieve those plans.
It has been said no plan survives first contact, but I have found over many deployments that no piss poor plan survives. A good plan will have contact integrated, and will be flexible enough to adjust for friction and fog.
Animal_Mother556
09-16-11, 09:02
People who worry about sight pictures and aiming often miss when time is an issue
Poop....Crap....Crap, poop, crap. All these years...all of the WASTED money on sights and optics that are actually going to be a detriment to me in a firefight....I'm going to call Aimpoint right now, and tell them that I will not stand for their false advertising any longer! MY T1 IS GOING TO MAKE ME MISS WHEN TIME IS AN ISSUE!
:cray:
Animal_Mother556
09-16-11, 09:11
This situation is a tough one. Wait for him to be a "real" threat? Or try to confront a man with an AK? To me it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of thingy.
You confront the man...7.62x39 in the middle of your face. Damned
(like others have said) You drop the dude because he had an AK and looks like a threat/looks funky, etc... You possibly go to prison. Damned
You wait for him to shoot. He hits a couple of people before you drop him. Damned.
BUT...I THINK.... I could still feel good about myself (in the last scenario) knowing that only one or two were killed/injured, and I saved who-knows-how-many lives...including my own.
polydeuces
09-16-11, 17:41
To address the original scenario- question:
If someone were to walk into "our" IHOP with an uncased rifle, there would be no question whatsoever what the intention is: he/she is not there to hunt bunny-rabbits, or show off their latest fine firearms purchase.
To assume anything other than that would just be total bullshit. So what would be my reaction - in the broadest sense?
Assess the environment, make sure I can protect my family/friends present and immediately prevent this dumb asshole from getting a firing-position in any shape or form, at any and all cost. That really covers the basics, with the details taken care of as they are presented.
As the old proverb goes: better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
As the old proverb goes: better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
I was waiting for this gem to show its face here. Basing your tactical decisions and philosophy on bumper sticker euphemisms is not really all that smart of a way to live life, sir. In fact, that lovely one is a great way to spend 18 to 25 in the custody of the state.
People with that philosophy are the ones who wind up having legal trouble. How about studying state law and knowing when lethal force is judicious? Then the whole "bubba-ism" philosophy really isn't necessary because you'll know when you can and can't shoot at a person. Maybe combine that with some training from a reputable instructor and with the requisite skills in hand, not have to worry too much about the being carried by six part. Of course, if you're plan is to win at "any and all cost", far be it from me to slow your roll.
By the way, in some places in the U.S., walking into an IHOP with a rifle or shotgun in plain view is not illegal. Please reference the post I made earlier regarding the incident I responded to at a McDonalds. Had you applied your philosophy to that scenario, you'd be flipping through the phone book at the homicide division at 3AM looking for a lawyer. The agent who handled that scenario knew when he could and could not use force.
I know, I know. You said that you'd handle the details as they presented themselves, but you also said you'd stop him from "getting a firing position" at all costs. I don't know what that means. Combined with the "rather be tried by twelve than carried by six" mentality and you're looking at a nightmare for you and your family.
Another thing. I don't ever want a jury of my "peers" holding my fate in their hands. I have testified before way too many dumbass jurors at murder and aggravated assault trials to ever have faith in that system. Jurors who fell asleep, picked their noses, doodled on their notepads, stared off into space...
polydeuces
09-17-11, 08:59
You were waiting for that old gem to show...well, glad i could be of service.
Comprehensive reading 101. Understand the broad scope of what was written.
You took one "gem", completely blowing by everything else to allow for a diatribe insinuating I am ignorant of local and state laws....Wrong, and won't even touch that.
The reply was based on what would be the norm where we live. Period.
Perhaps it's legal in your neck of the woods, but NOT in mine.
So please pay attention - read the small print: all this is based on it occurring in my backyard. As per OP.
So if where you live someone walks into IHOP with an uncased rifle you and everyone else surely will continue perusing the finer dining options of the establishment while enjoying their fine coffee. Good for you.
Done with this one (my mistake, what was I thinking...:shout:)
TX Rancher
09-17-11, 11:38
I live in Tx so the rules of engagement are a little different here than in some other localities. If I am where I have a right to be and I'm not breaking the law, I have a right to self defense and no legal requirement to retreat.
I am not SWAT...never was a SEAL or Delta. I'm your basic over the hill past middle aged guy who never was that impressive to begin with. In the 80's I shot IPSC but was only a B shooter. I don't shoot in competitions anymore, but I do still practice a lot, but with age sneaking up on me, I doubt I'm getting better;)
From concealment, it takes me 1.0 to 1.2 sec to get the first shot off. Keep in mind that's from a standing position and waiting for the timer beep. Actual real life situation would probably be a little slower.
I typically carry a G19 with a grip mod and night sights. Otherwise it's stock. I don't dress tactical, no 511 outfits, NRA hats, etc. The Glock resides in a OWB at 4:00.
So that's the background in my case.
How I would respond depends a lot on the circumstances. To make it simple, let's assume my family is not there and I'm at a table by myself (no one in the place I feel responsible for). Under those conditions rule number one is to survive the fight. Also let's assume there's no easy way for me to exit stage right.
Is the armed person someone I believe has a reason to look for me? Did I diss him in the parking lot, did we have words outside the establishment...do I have any reason to believe I'm a potential target? In this particular case, the answer would have been no so so far it's watch but don't attract attention.
If he looks agitated or I get a feeling this could go south, then I would probably discreetly draw and keep the weapon hidden by my side. After all, I've already disclosed I'm not a fast draw expert.
After the shooting starts my question will be if I go after the shooter, do I believe I have a high probability of success (assuming I'm still not the target...if I'm a target there's no choice I have to engage and hope for the best). I figure I don't do anyone any good by just becoming another victim.
My choice shot would be inside 10ft with the shooter facing away from me and focusing on his/her targets. No warning or notice, just put two in the back of the head at a slight upward angle.
I don't like my odds on taking on the shooter face on when they have a rifle, and in no way am I going to give away what little surprise I may have by giving a warning.
For me this is a bad situation. There's usually not a lot of free space to move around in so running and gunning is most likely out. Also, the other folks in the place are probably running around and generally getting in the way. Of course they're getting in the shooters way also and that can work for me. I'm only tracking one person at that time while he/she is tracking a room full.
I also hope there isn't a Rambo in the room who will shoot anyone with a gun. Some of the responses I read on the web to this sort of situation lead me to believe some of the CCW folks would represent just as much of a risk to me as the active shooter, if not more.
You were waiting for that old gem to show...well, glad i could be of service.
Comprehensive reading 101. Understand the broad scope of what was written.
You took one "gem", completely blowing by everything else to allow for a diatribe insinuating I am ignorant of local and state laws....Wrong, and won't even touch that.
The reply was based on what would be the norm where we live. Period.
Perhaps it's legal in your neck of the woods, but NOT in mine.
So please pay attention - read the small print: all this is based on it occurring in my backyard. As per OP.
So if where you live someone walks into IHOP with an uncased rifle you and everyone else surely will continue perusing the finer dining options of the establishment while enjoying their fine coffee. Good for you.
Done with this one (my mistake, what was I thinking...:shout:)
Your "one gem" is the one of the most faulted philosophies of modern time. The fact that you would actually use it in this discussion is all I need to hear. It renders the rest of your thinking irrelevant and reduces your argument to pointless drivel. Try as you will to salvage your reasoning, you'll never succeed because every person who utters that phrase in a serious discussion has no point being in the discussion to begin with and shouldn't own guns. It flies in the face of common sense and it's everything that's wrong with the "gun" culture of the United States. It's a philosophy that encourages a "shoot first, ask later" mentality in an age where there are forces on all sides of legal and responsible gun owners. Forces who take any and every chance they can get to attack concealed carry as a dangerous and reckless practice.
Whether you're aware of it or not the phrase means: "It's better to break the law and deal with the consequences later." If that's how you go through life as a gun owner and the philosophy you adhere to as a concealed carry practitioner, that's your decision and it's dumb.
So, please. Go ahead and further explain your rationale in the "broadest sense" and please make sure to incorporate the "Tried by twelve..." philosophy into it because after two of your posts, it really wasn't all that clear to me how you justify that philosophy or how it's a valid state of mind to be in when you're carrying a concealed firearm. Perhaps you could further explain how it benefits you when it comes down to explaining to the court and those twelve jurors why you shot a person. Perhaps in your defense you could just use another bumper sticker euphemism to defend yourself in court: "Shit Happens."
Hey, maybe I'm all wrong. Perhaps in your state justification goes something like this:
Means (Ability)
Motive (Action)
Opportunity (Imminent threat)
Exclusion for the lawful use of deadly force by another.
Blind luck (Better to be safe than sorry)
According to you, you're "done with this one", so I won't expect a reply. I've made my point and you've shot yourself in the foot.
Your "one gem" is the one of the most faulted philosophies of modern time. The fact that you would actually use it in this discussion is all I need to hear. It renders the rest of your thinking irrelevant and reduces your argument to pointless drivel. Try as you will to salvage your reasoning, you'll never succeed because every person who utters that phrase in a serious discussion has no point being in the discussion to begin with and shouldn't own guns. It flies in the face of common sense and it's everything that's wrong with the "gun" culture of the United States. It's a philosophy that encourages a "shoot first, ask later" mentality in an age where there are forces on all sides of legal and responsible gun owners. Forces who take any and every chance they can get to attack concealed carry as a dangerous and reckless practice.
Whether you're aware of it or not the phrase means: "It's better to break the law and deal with the consequences later." If that's how you go through life as a gun owner and the philosophy you adhere to as a concealed carry practitioner, that's your decision and it's dumb.
So, please. Go ahead and further explain your rationale in the "broadest sense" and please make sure to incorporate the "Tried by twelve..." philosophy into it because after two of your posts, it really wasn't all that clear to me how you justify that philosophy or how it's a valid state of mind to be in when you're carrying a concealed firearm. Perhaps you could further explain how it benefits you when it comes down to explaining to the court and those twelve jurors why you shot a person. Perhaps in your defense you could just use another bumper sticker euphemism to defend yourself in court: "Shit Happens."
Hey, maybe I'm all wrong. Perhaps in your state justification goes something like this:
Means (Ability)
Motive (Action)
Opportunity (Imminent threat)
Exclusion for the lawful use of deadly force by another.
Blind luck (Better to be safe than sorry)
According to you, you're "done with this one", so I won't expect a reply. I've made my point and you've shot yourself in the foot.
Well said. and I couldn't agree more with your comment about this kind of mentality giving all good and intelligent CCW holders and guns in general a bad name.
A guy carrying an AK is not enough reason to shoot first and ask questions later. Again, intelligence is required in this field.
R.
thecarfarmer
09-18-11, 00:02
Read this thread yesterday; has raised some interesting questions in my mind.
This situation is a tough one. Wait for him to be a "real" threat? Or try to confront a man with an AK? To me it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of thingy.
You confront the man...7.62x39 in the middle of your face. Damned
(like others have said) You drop the dude because he had an AK and looks like a threat/looks funky, etc... You possibly go to prison. Damned
You wait for him to shoot. He hits a couple of people before you drop him. Damned.
BUT...I THINK.... I could still feel good about myself (in the last scenario) knowing that only one or two were killed/injured, and I saved who-knows-how-many lives...including my own.
I live in Tx so the rules of engagement are a little different here than in some other localities. If I am where I have a right to be and I'm not breaking the law, I have a right to self defense and no legal requirement to retreat.
I am not SWAT...never was a SEAL or Delta. I'm your basic over the hill past middle aged guy who never was that impressive to begin with. In the 80's I shot IPSC but was only a B shooter. I don't shoot in competitions anymore, but I do still practice a lot, but with age sneaking up on me, I doubt I'm getting better;)
(cut for length...)
If he looks agitated or I get a feeling this could go south, then I would probably discreetly draw and keep the weapon hidden by my side. After all, I've already disclosed I'm not a fast draw expert.
After the shooting starts my question will be if I go after the shooter, do I believe I have a high probability of success (assuming I'm still not the target...if I'm a target there's no choice I have to engage and hope for the best). I figure I don't do anyone any good by just becoming another victim.
My choice shot would be inside 10ft with the shooter facing away from me and focusing on his/her targets. No warning or notice, just put two in the back of the head at a slight upward angle.
I don't like my odds on taking on the shooter face on when they have a rifle, and in no way am I going to give away what little surprise I may have by giving a warning.
(snip)
I also hope there isn't a Rambo in the room who will shoot anyone with a gun. Some of the responses I read on the web to this sort of situation lead me to believe some of the CCW folks would represent just as much of a risk to me as the active shooter, if not more.
I'm a recent CCW (called CPL here in western WA) holder; have not been rushing to start carrying, because I want to make damn sure I am squared away using the weapon that I'm now legally allowed to discreetly carry. Part of that means being able to physically operate said weapon. Part of that also means being able to have a pretty good grasp on these questions, and how I'd answer them.
One thing I'm not clear on from the OP:
If you saw some guy walk into the IHOP where you and your family are enjoying a meal with what seems to be a real assualt weapon. He hasn't fired yet and seems to be looking for someone. What would you do and Why?
How is the weapon being held? Over the shoulder like it's just being carried? Low ready? Put to shoulder and looking for someone?
For the purpose of discussion, I'll presume that he's carrying it in a not-intentionally threatening way (held in a fashion that you'd carry a longgun when not intending to discharge it quickly).
I agree wholeheartedly that this is a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't kind of scenario. After having 24 hours to 'armchair quarterback' what I'd do, I think the best thing would be to a) assess the options of leaving as I'm almost half French and would run from a Girl Scout who tries to sell the thin mints too aggressively, b) discreetly draw weapon and make DAMN sure there's a round in the chamber, and prepare to c) take a shot if the rifle comes up to his shoulder, or is moved to aim at people.
If I had him in my sights, and a clear shot, would I yell and try to get him to drop the weapon? Half of me would want to give him the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps he's just emotionally all ****ed up and wasn't actually going to hurt anyone (just looking for attention, or some dumb crap). That half of me wouldn't want to have to kill him.
The other half of me would say "**** it, he's already more than proven himself to be a credible threat" and want to engage him.
I've gone 44 years without killing anyone, and don't have a great desire to change that streak. A lot of you guys here are military; a number are LE who've had to kill someone; this is everyday shit for you, but new territory for me.
Thanks to the OP for putting up a thought provoking question. This is the kind of stuff I've got to get pretty solid on before I actually start carrying.
-Bill
ares armor
09-18-11, 00:19
Well said. and I couldn't agree more with your comment about this kind of mentality giving all good and intelligent CCW holders and guns in general a bad name.
A guy carrying an AK is not enough reason to shoot first and ask questions later. Again, intelligence is required in this field.
R.
I like the damned if you do damned if you don't explanation i saw earlier in this thread.
Intelligence is required. you are correct. There are other things that would go into the decision to shoot. the biggest is what are the local laws. here in the peoples republic of CA someone walking around with AK would bring up some serious suspicion esp if that person has a 30 round mag and a featured rifle. I would also try and get a feel for the disposition of the person who just walked in. Body language tells a lot.
From a military stand point once you have established HI and PID your good. Honestly i would probably fall back on that because its been drilled into my head so much.
Once I establish that the person with the AK has hostile intent I will fire on him.
I would use my own judgement on what constitutes HI. If I kill him (saving the 1 or 2 people that he would have killed had I waited for him to shoot first) and I go to prison for it.... So be it. I will sleep well at night.
However, this decision could not be made lightly as if my judgement was wrong and I misconstrued his actions to constitute HI when they really did not... That would be as bad as if i went to his house and killed him in cold blood.
Once I establish that the person with the AK has hostile intent I will fire on him.
Good clarification,i think this is the point some are trying to make. While I agree a guy with an AK demands serious attention, just holding it alone isn't justification to fire indiscriminately.
polydeuces
09-19-11, 13:13
"Give CCW a bad name"... "Shoot yourself in the foot".......
And where and when was it implied by to "shoot first and ask questions later"?
Really wondering what forum we're on here...as does this entire thread.
Just maybe it was my mistake, not being specific and detailed enough. As per my initial gut instinct, I should known better, but here I go..again..
What if my intention was to simply draw my weapon and politely ask the gentleman to make safe and case his rifle, or I might be obliged to shoot him because I am very much fearing for my family's and my life?
And if the outcome of this action would land me in court i would VERY VERY much be ok with this. I'd stake my life on this. Hence my GEM.... :)
So since we are all so hell-bend on doing this mental excercise, follow me on this one.
One more time...real slow and careful...and lets all close our eyes and visualise the OP's scenario... pretend for real. We're sitting down with our family. Having breakfast. Good times. At IHOPS. And there, you look up and all of a sudden some asshole is standing there with an AK, magazine inserted. And he is not looking like he just won the lottery.
When presented with the scenario as per OP, if someone were to walk into the IHOP we (my wife, kids and I) frequent, predominantly white middle upper class liberal.....where I am oh so very familiar with what is to be constituted as THE NORM......that given scenario would be very very much out of the ordinary.
What specifically would be out of the ordinary? An uncased AK with a magazine inserted....
BINGO!
Because in Florida ( where I am VERY MUCH familiar with it's fire-arm laws - "present your weapon, go to jail".....) it is NOT o.k. to walk around with an uncased rifle..... magazine inserted... in an IHOP or for that matter anywhere else in public unless hunting. Period. As per Florida law.
Than per definition hostile intent should be expected, accepted and anticipated.
But of course according to some the correct reaction would be to carefully weigh all the possible options and possibilities, including but not limited to;
"Well, that's OK, really he might just want to show it off to his buddy in the booth behind me, perfectly normal..."
Or...."Well, he has not done anything bad yet..."
Well......he showed up with an uncased rifle, presumed to be loaded and ready to fire, in a restaurant.
Do I need to specify what Florida laws are broken with this?
I am not sure at which point any of you might get suspicious, start wondering if something bad may be about to happen...perhaps when the rifle gets shouldered? Or when the finger goes towards the trigger?
Or when there obviously is no acquaintance expecting him?
You can sit there all day long and armchair quarterback till hell freezes over, debate the finer points of "what, if, maybe, perhaps, but" etc., but when confronted with this scenario in the real world I am pretty sure where I stand.
As far as this thread is concerned, ironman8 had it right.
Because really only those that have been in a situation like this should be heard. And i am not one of them.
Now I'm really done. Thank you for your patience.
"Give CCW a bad name"... "Shoot yourself in the foot".......
And where and when was it implied by to "shoot first and ask questions later"?
Really wondering what forum we're on here...as does this entire thread.
Just maybe it was my mistake, not being specific and detailed enough. As per my initial gut instinct, I should known better, but here I go..again..
What if my intention was to simply draw my weapon and politely ask the gentleman to make safe and case his rifle, or I might be obliged to shoot him because I am very much fearing for my family's and my life?
And if the outcome of this action would land me in court i would VERY VERY much be ok with this. I'd stake my life on this. Hence my GEM.... :)
So since we are all so hell-bend on doing this mental excercise, follow me on this one.
One more time...real slow and careful...and lets all close our eyes and visualise the OP's scenario... pretend for real. We're sitting down with our family. Having breakfast. Good times. At IHOPS. And there, you look up and all of a sudden some asshole is standing there with an AK, magazine inserted. And he is not looking like he just won the lottery.
When presented with the scenario as per OP, if someone were to walk into the IHOP we (my wife, kids and I) frequent, predominantly white middle upper class liberal.....where I am oh so very familiar with what is to be constituted as THE NORM......that given scenario would be very very much out of the ordinary.
What specifically would be out of the ordinary? An uncased AK with a magazine inserted....
BINGO!
Because in Florida ( where I am VERY MUCH familiar with it's fire-arm laws - "present your weapon, go to jail".....) it is NOT o.k. to walk around with an uncased rifle..... magazine inserted... in an IHOP or for that matter anywhere else in public unless hunting. Period. As per Florida law.
Than per definition hostile intent should be expected, accepted and anticipated.
But of course according to some the correct reaction would be to carefully weigh all the possible options and possibilities, including but not limited to;
"Well, that's OK, really he might just want to show it off to his buddy in the booth behind me, perfectly normal..."
Or...."Well, he has not done anything bad yet..."
Well......he showed up with an uncased rifle, presumed to be loaded and ready to fire, in a restaurant.
Do I need to specify what Florida laws are broken with this?
I am not sure at which point any of you might get suspicious, start wondering if something bad may be about to happen...perhaps when the rifle gets shouldered? Or when the finger goes towards the trigger?
Or when there obviously is no acquaintance expecting him?
You can sit there all day long and armchair quarterback till hell freezes over, debate the finer points of "what, if, maybe, perhaps, but" etc., but when confronted with this scenario in the real world I am pretty sure where I stand.
As far as this thread is concerned, ironman8 had it right.
Because really only those that have been in a situation like this should be heard. And i am not one of them.
Now I'm really done. Thank you for your patience.
I'll ignore the insults to my intelligence (i.e. "speaking slowly") and just tell you that if you had posted some of this reasoning and left out the bumper sticker mantra, this conversation would have gone a lot differently for you. Whether you like it or not, bullshit euphemisms like that wreck your credibility. It's a stupid and irresponsible philosophy and it does, in fact, convey a gunslinger "shoot first, ask later" mentality. I'd stop using it if I were you. You'll be taken a lot more seriously.
I spent decades in law enforcement tactical operations and I now teach team tactics to both patrol and SWAT officers. Scenarios like this are not academic for me and many other people here. These are situations that some of us have actually faced and had to resolve so we bring those experiences to the table. Posting in a thread like this requires some thought and introspection beforehand. It's worth doing it right the first time and being as clear and as detailed as you can about what you would do. Your first post was neither and your second basically chided me for not reading your mind. Your third made more sense. We're all here to learn, so let's just try and be a little more descriptive and clear of thought and keep this disscussion open. Judging from the PMs I've gotten, people certainly have questions.
jarhead1775
09-19-11, 15:23
Observe, orient, decide, act.... It all depends on what a-hole is doing with the AK when he walks into the IHOP. Personally, if I heard rifle shots outside and then saw the door open quickly followed by the front end of an AK, I'm buying time and shoving my wife and kid on the ground and giving them whatever cover I can.... moving them towards any available exit. My weapon will most likely be out by then I would hopefully have the presence of mind to take action if needed which would involve dumping as many rounds into the threat as is required to stop it.
If a guy just walks into an IHOP with an AK and was not presenting any threat... different story. I would probably just unholster without brandishing and observe without giving myself away and see where it goes.
Now by no means am I a delta/seal/devgru/ranger operator... just a Cop who served four in the Corps as a POG. I know what my limitations are and feel that I'm at an advantage over at least half of the yahoos out there with CCW permits... meaning I train regularly and have a pretty good grasp on use of force.
I guess the best answer to the question of "when to shoot" is: perhaps?
Stay safe...
ares armor
09-19-11, 18:04
Observe, orient, decide, act....
good ol' Ooda Loop
I am sure you all have heard about the IHOP shooting of 7 people 3 of whom were Guardsmen in Carson City Nevada. After telling the girlfriend about the story she asked the question, "What would you have done?" Me being a permit holder I carry my gun EVERYWHERE I can. I feel naked and lost without it. When posed with the question it got me thinking what WOULD I do? So as I sometimes do I started replaying the story in my head as if I were in the IHOP. I am not exactly sure how it all went down but I am sure the AK-47 the gunman was using was in sight as he walked through the door so...I said "If I saw some goon walk into any public place with an assualt rifle I would immediately take him out." So she came back with "What if it is not a real gun?" I then said, "If any clown walks into a place with a fake AK-47 he needs to be dealt with."
Now of course you wouldn't want to be on the other end of a defensive shoot with a fake gun so how would you go about this scenario?
If you saw some guy walk into the IHOP where you and your family are enjoying a meal with what seems to be a real assualt weapon. He hasn't fired yet and seems to be looking for someone. What would you do and Why?
Engage and Dispatch immediately?
Maybe try to wrestle the gun away without drawing your own?
I am asking for my own personal knowlede because I like to be prepared for anything, anytime. Thanks for all replies and advice!
This thread poses a question that explains why I think the most important training is that which helps us develop the skills necessary to know when and where to use lethal force to solve a problem as opposed to the how of using lethal force.
Good realistic dynamic stressful force-on-force training with a competent instructor and good role players is IMO the most important training, even more important than training in using a firearm.
Most gun training just teaches us how to use a gun, not how to decide IF to use the gun.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/Indum/MalSpeechless.gif
LOL, that is a good one.
2theXtreme
09-21-11, 16:34
Finally I am able to reply to this thread. My M4C has been going crazy for about the past week.
I am glad to see we are back on topic here. Some very informative and thought provoking posts have been made. The one below has to be one of my favorites!
This thread poses a question that explains why I think the most important training is that which helps us develop the skills necessary to know when and where to use lethal force to solve a problem as opposed to the how of using lethal force.
Good realistic dynamic stressful force-on-force training with a competent instructor and good role players is IMO the most important training, even more important than training in using a firearm.
Most gun training just teaches us how to use a gun, not how to decide IF to use the gun.
I could not agree with you more Texan. The kind of training that teaches us if/when to use a weapon would be the best kind of training. I was fortunate enough to have a very knowledgeable CCW instructor that answered any and all questions regarding stuff like this. I'm definitely going to pick his brain more when I renew.
Thank you all for the massive amount of info let's keep it coming!
Finally I am able to reply to this thread. My M4C has been going crazy for about the past week.
I am glad to see we are back on topic here. Some very informative and thought provoking posts have been made. The one below has to be one of my favorites!
I could not agree with you more Texan. The kind of training that teaches us if/when to use a weapon would be the best kind of training. I was fortunate enough to have a very knowledgeable CCW instructor that answered any and all questions regarding stuff like this. I'm definitely going to pick his brain more when I renew.
Thank you all for the massive amount of info let's keep it coming!
I have friend who owns a shooting range/training facility here in north Texas. He had a TV show a while back in which several folks with little or no fighting/shooting experience went through a series of classes with him. The final exercise was a FoF scenario. Almost everyone in the class went to guns too early. If those events had happened in the real world, many of the students could have faced felony charges. The problem was that the training they had received had taught them to see every problem as needing a gun solution.
This is a big reason that I think the first training we get should be training that teaches out how to manage contacts that we have with strangers on a daily basis. Most of those contacts are benign, and most of the ones that aren't benign don't justify lethal force.
My wife and I took a block of instruction on Managing Unknown Contacts (MUC)last fall from Southnarc. I took a Force on Force class at Tac Pro Shooting Center from Bill Davison and Paul Gomez a few years back. Both courses focus on situational awareness and dynamic decision-making skills under stress against role player(s) . These are by far the most valuable two training experiences I've ever had.
I wish that I had started out with the MUC and decision-making stuff instead of starting out with firearm training like I did. When we start with the platform/firearm-based training, IMO there is a danger that we will like, those aforementioned students, come to see every problem as needing a gun solution.
Lots of interesting posts in here. It's a complete tragedy that the people in that IHOP had to die, but hopefully in thinking through what we *might* have done had we been there their deaths will not be completely in vain. For my part, my plan would be much along the lines of what DireWulf described in his initial response, namely to ensure the safety of my family and get them the hell out of the restaurant and, only if necessary, engage the threat. Everything else would be secondary.
Someone made reference to the OODA loop. I had the good fortune to take Street & Vehicle Tactics with John Holschen where we discussed and practiced our responses for everything from liquor store robberies to car jackings. Here was something he said on the subject:
You don't want to start your observation when you have a problem. We want an OOA loop instead of an OODA loop with minimal orientation and no decision. Any place you frequent you should be familiar with fire escapes, emergency exits, medical equipment, and improvised weapons.
thecarfarmer
09-22-11, 00:33
I have friend who owns a shooting range/training facility here in north Texas. He had a TV show a while back in which several folks with little or no fighting/shooting experience went through a series of classes with him. The final exercise was a FoF scenario. Almost everyone in the class went to guns too early. If those events had happened in the real world, many of the students could have faced felony charges. The problem was that the training they had received had taught them to see every problem as needing a gun solution.
This is a big reason that I think the first training we get should be training that teaches out how to manage contacts that we have with strangers on a daily basis. Most of those contacts are benign, and most of the ones that aren't benign don't justify lethal force.
My wife and I took a block of instruction on Managing Unknown Contacts (MUC)last fall from Southnarc. I took a Force on Force class at Tac Pro Shooting Center from Bill Davison and Paul Gomez a few years back. Both courses focus on situational awareness and dynamic decision-making skills under stress against role player(s) . These are by far the most valuable two training experiences I've ever had.
I wish that I had started out with the MUC and decision-making stuff instead of starting out with firearm training like I did. When we start with the platform/firearm-based training, IMO there is a danger that we will like, those aforementioned students, come to see every problem as needing a gun solution.
I was talking with a guy from another gun board a couple months back; a police officer from Alaska. Anyway, he told me that his pepper spray was his 'go to' device, and his gun was seldom even looked at.
Not that the sidearm wasn't important; just that there were better tools for the task at hand most of the time.
-Bill
Failure2Stop
09-22-11, 02:05
I was talking with a guy from another gun board a couple months back; a police officer from Alaska. Anyway, he told me that his pepper spray was his 'go to' device, and his gun was seldom even looked at.
Not that the sidearm wasn't important; just that there were better tools for the task at hand most of the time.
At least until somebody walks into an IHOP with an AK and starts shooting.
Anyway-
The problem with most force on force stuff is that it is done during a course, involves people wearing protective gear, and there is only so much time for each scenario. Even those that engage in active combat only do so for a fraction of a percent of their busiest year. We simply cannot replicate real life in a training scenario. What we can do is teach indicators and cues, and ensure that once things go loud the good guy puts bullets where they need to go and does what is necessary for his/her duty or responsibility. It's training, not simulation. Simulation is not time efficient. It sucks, but a lot of it comes down to class and instructor selection.
Lots of interesting posts in here. It's a complete tragedy that the people in that IHOP had to die, but hopefully in thinking through what we *might* have done had we been there their deaths will not be completely in vain. For my part, my plan would be much along the lines of what DireWulf described in his initial response, namely to ensure the safety of my family and get them the hell out of the restaurant and, only if necessary, engage the threat. Everything else would be secondary.
Someone made reference to the OODA loop. I had the good fortune to take Street & Vehicle Tactics with John Holschen where we discussed and practiced our responses for everything from liquor store robberies to car jackings. Here was something he said on the subject:
Zacbol,
Can you elaborate on your quote?? Is he saying one needs to eliminate the decision part of the OODA loop?
IMO, FoF teaches one how to fight. I don't know how effective it is in teaching someone when to make the decision to begin the fight, which is what we're talking about here I believe. It can be incorporated in FoF, but the actual decision process is not really FoF training.
R.
Zacbol,
Can you elaborate on your quote?? Is he saying one needs to eliminate the decision part of the OODA loop?
IMO, FoF teaches one how to fight. I don't know how effective it is in teaching someone when to make the decision to begin the fight, which is what we're talking about here I believe. It can be incorporated in FoF, but the actual decision process is not really FoF training.
R.
It's difficult for me to qualify precisely what he meant without introducing my own interpretation into the mix.
That said, that is what I understood him to be saying. Of course, what constitutes a 'decision'? During class we watched a lot of videos of street crimes, including several videos of people being shot/killed, and were asked to think about what would *we* do in each case and when. That was something he stressed again and again, not just to practice with your firearm but to play out various scenarios in your head--which is pretty much we're doing in threads like this. Anytime I see videos on tv of something or read stories, I now go through this exercise.
Part of what he also meant with decision, which may seem a foregone conclusion with many on this site, is simply having dealt with any moral qualms you might have about killing someone before hand, don't be wrestling with those in the moment.
While I have not done FoF much beyond that class, it seemed to be more focused on observation and how to act rather than operation of a weapon. Part of what it taught me was that in most cases, if I could I would simply walk away, even if I had a weapon. That doesn't mean I would not call for help, but if neither I nor someone I love was in immediate danger, *my* decision was generally not to engage.
Here's what I wrote in the other thread by kaltesherz (about his father having just left the IHOP prior to the shooting)
As for more people being able to do 'more', I did a few repitions of a mock store robbery/shooting in a tactics class about a year ago. In each case each student was assigned a role known only to himself: aggressor, a normal person, a normal person with a gun, etc. No one knew who was good or bad and many people on both sides had weapons. In many cases, the 'good' folks ended up shooting eachother in the confusion. Or they shot the bad guy before they had determined he had an accomplice and then were shot themselves. I'm not saying it means not to do anything or it's any kind of argument against carrying, I just foudn it an *interesting* data point. For my part, whenever possible as soon as I noticed something 'weird' I tried to leave. That's my plan for real life too. If that doesn't work, if someone needs shot, they need shot.
Hope that clarifies. It was definitely an eye-opening class for me. Holschen mentioned they often struggle to fill this class up because most people stop at the basic gun and rifle classes, not seeing this as being valuable. He views it as the class where they finally get to the stuff that really matters. I would have gone again this year as both John Holschen and Mike Shertz co-taught the class and I have been immensely impressed with both of them. I hope to attend again next year if possible.
http://insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=26
Thanks for the clarification.
That's kind of how I took it too, and if it is such I don't understand his take in it to be honest. How does one OO and then act without making a decision first. Your action is based on a decision, whether to shoot, not shoot, walk away, whatever the case is, it's based on a decision. I think all our actions are based on decision, even if very minute. That's how I think about it. Maybe others do it differently, I don't know.
I hear you about FoF, and agree with his assessment that it puts everything that we train on and is important into application. There' A LOT of people out there that aren't really training to survive a gun fight.They're training to have a good day at the range, and nothing more. IMO, a reason people don't do it is because, there's no immediate feel good result about what they're doing. A nice little group on a target makes people feel good. It's also the reason most train at what they're good at. Unfortunately our egos get in the way. But that's a different topic all together.
Anyway, walking away is the right idea and I completely agree with it, but I think it's a little more complicated than that. How does one just walk away from an incident like the OP's if other innocent lives are at risk? Does one get their family to safety then come back to help others, or does one just turn his back on the less fortunate and takes care of his family alone? Personally, I don't think I could sleep at night if I had the ability to do something and didn't.
ares armor
09-24-11, 13:05
Thanks for the clarification.
That's kind of how I took it too, and if it is such I don't understand his take in it to be honest. How does one OO and then act without making a decision first. Your action is based on a decision, whether to shoot, not shoot, walk away, whatever the case is, it's based on a decision.
I was just thinking this myself. I think what he is talking about is more in line with combat mindset and staying out of condition white than it is in the decision making process.
The ooda loop does not have to be necessarily a response to a violent situation. We go through the ooda loop in many insignificant decisions as well.
For instance;
Observe: Commercial stating there is a good fight in the UFC going on.
Orient: Figure out what channel its on
Decide: Do I really want to watch it?
Act: either pay the pony and click the button for pay-per-view or continue watching magpul dynamics DVD's, taking breaks from time to time to see if my beard grew in any "fuller" while watching.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.