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View Full Version : Toughest Bolt - LMT Enhanced vs. Denny's Super Duty Ion Bond??????



Tyrantresister
09-09-11, 03:24
LMT Enhanced Bolt
http://i6.tinypic.com/4ife7pi.jpg
http://sgcusa.com/images/supporting_images_large/LMT_Enhanced_Full-Auto_Bolt_Carrier_Group_L7Q3_E.jpg


The bolt itself is of particular interest. The function of the dual spring extractor is frequently misinterpreted as an attempt to add spring force to the extractor claw. Rather it reduces the fatigue that the extractor spring(s) undergo by allowing the use of longer springs with lower K values; the % relative compression during the movement of the extractor is reduced. Remember that additional extractor force is not required now that the carrier is slowing the extraction cycle. The mitigation of stress in the bolt is accomplished in several ways. Material is the least visible change but is important to the design. The traditional Carpenter 158 is abandoned, being replaced by a significantly tougher grade from a different manufacturer. The lugs themselves are generously radiused between lugs and at the rear the diameter is actually reduced to allow a larger transition radius to be machined. The incorrectly identified sand cuts on the lugs are stress relief cuts. These allow any individual lug to elastically deform and give a smoother load over the contact patch. While this type of feature is very difficult to calculate and even more difficult to implement it helps to place the lug in a true shear load rather than amplify the bending moment. As noted the lug opposite the extractor is relieved. This feature prevents the unequal transfer of load to the two opposite lugs but I would argue that the stress relief groove already in place largely accomplishes this purpose. This is a academic quibble so I will bow to LMT in this respect. There is one additional feature that can be found in the bolt, but I am not at liberty to disclose the detail.

Bill Alexander



VS.


Denny's Super Duty Ion Bond Bolt
http://globaltactical.com/_img.upload/upload/ion%20bonded%20bolt%20alone.jpg
http://globaltactical.com/_img.upload/upload/ION%20SD%20BCG%20BOLT%20ASSY.jpg


MPI BOLT ION BONED

SHOT PEENED EXTRACTOR ION BONDED

CHROME SILICON EJECTOR SPRING ION BONDED

CORRECT DUROMETER BLACK BUMPER

EXTRA STRENGTH CHROME SILICON EXTRACTOR SPRING

ION BONDED GAS RINGS

A SHORT ION BOND PRIMER
Ion Bond is a Tribological coating that bonds to the matrix of the base metal and becomes part of it. ION BOND is PVD and PA-CVD technology. It is 90 Rockwell in hardness. Much harder than hard chrome and black in color.

ION BONDING accomplishes several things on the AR BCG:

Reduced coefficent of friction
Increased abrasive wear resistance
Anti-scuffing.antigalling
High fretting resistance
High pitting resistance
High corrosion and carbon resistance(EASY TO CLEAN)
Reduced friction and assisted lubrication
Accomidated higher contact pressures
Ultraclean surface engineering
ISO 9002 certified.



What do you think? Which would be the barnone toughest that there is?

Winnerkd
09-09-11, 05:41
The SR-15 bolt is a pretty tough customer too apparently.

El Pistolero
09-09-11, 05:51
I'll piggyback on the 1st reply. I've never seen a documented report of a Knight's E3 bolt failing.

crazymoose
09-09-11, 05:54
I don't have any data for or against the LMT bolt, but I am intrigued. However, the Denny's bolt is just a mil-spec bolt with a really nice coating. That's not a knock against it, since such bolts work really well, and Ion Bond is good stuff.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-09-11, 08:37
JPs bolt is supposed to be uber-metal made.

I've never seen a discussion here about it, but doesn't Armalite have a patent that has the bolt lug opposite the extractor set so that it doesn't contact the extension so that the recoil force is more symetrical on the bolt?

markm
09-09-11, 09:30
I wouldn't run either of those over a Colt or BCM.

ALCOAR
09-09-11, 09:43
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JasonM
09-09-11, 09:48
I'll piggyback on the 1st reply. I've never seen a documented report of a Knight's E3 bolt failing.

I had surprising first-hand knowledge of this very thing happening to 2 E3 bolts on the same day just a month ago. I don't know anything about the maintenance of the weapons though.

That said, anything can and will eventually break.

P2000
09-09-11, 18:46
I had surprising first-hand knowledge of this very thing happening to 2 E3 bolts on the same day just a month ago. I don't know anything about the maintenance of the weapons though.

That said, anything can and will eventually break.

Do you know where on the bolt there was a failure and could you describe it please? And I assume this was on a 16'' SR-15?
AFAIK, the SR-15 bolt is supposed to last as long as the barrel, so maintenance shouldn't be an excuse. As a very happy SR-15 owner, I'm interested in this. Thanks. PM if appropriate.

Miale
09-10-11, 23:49
the lmt is the superior bolt hands down, as for the bcm, a nice bolt with all the inherent deficiencies of the stoner design - go figure!

spend your money and take you choice, physical properties beat marketing b/s and internet hype in the real world

EzGoingKev
09-11-11, 04:08
[SIZE="4"]
What do you think? Which would be the barnone toughest that there is?
There is more to it than which is the "barnone toughest".

What are you going to use it for? LMT's enhanced bolt is sensitive to barrel length.



I wouldn't run either of those over a Colt or BCM.
Mark, what kind of testing did you do to determine Colt's and BCM's bolts to be superior?



the lmt is the superior bolt hands down
Miale, would you please outline the testing you used to determine this?

ALCOAR
09-11-11, 09:28
I can't speak for Mark, however personally it is not a case of the colt, bcm, or lmt standard bolt being superior in really any category to the LMT enhanced or E3 bolt...however they get the job done more than sufficient at a greatly reduced cost to the end user. Ultimately for the avg. person with a properly functioning(gas system) AR, the LMT enhanced type bolt is simply overkill imho.

Eta...the LMT enhanced bolt isn't sensitive to barrel length...only the LMT enhanced carrier
http://www.lmtstore.com/bolts-carriers-groups/bolts-carriers-and-groups-complete/556-enhanced-fa-bolt-carrier.html

pleaforwar
09-11-11, 10:43
I did a mini-review of the LMT Enhanced BCG in his thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83633

I have experienced a total of three failure to extract malfunctions in 6400 rounds, all of which happened during ~500 round sessions in less than an hour.

I love the BCG, but by no means think it is a "must-have" over your standard milspec BCG (be it DD, BCM, Colt, etc).

jmart
09-11-11, 11:46
There is more to it than which is the "barnone toughest".

What are you going to use it for? LMT's enhanced bolt is sensitive to barrel length.

Their carrier is sensitive (extra port, revised cam slot timing), but not just the bolt.

I've never understood how LMT can use the deprecated lug design that Armalite developed and patented. Maybe Armalite licenses LMT to copy this feature. But I don't think any other bolt manufacturer uses this design, and I'd bet it would be due to it being patented rather than a poor design.

Mjolnir
09-11-11, 11:54
I like the LMT but if you decide to run them be sure to have an extra in your MIAD grip.

bp7178
09-11-11, 17:08
I find it hard to seriously compare a LMT product to one from "Denny's Guns Global Tactical".

One is a proven manufacturer, the other is sourcing standard parts, having them coated, and putting more logos than NASCAR on it.

I'm into the new applications for these types of coatings, I even had my LMT standard M16 BCG NiB coated.

I'm more for standard parts. By that I mean if I loose/damage/wear out a spring, pin, extractor etc, it's easy to find a spare. I guess the message being if you plan on using an LMT carrier, it's probably a good idea to have spares on hand. While the same can be said about any BCG, I doubt very many local shops or other shooters could cough up a LMT enhanced extractor spring.

I have to admit, they totally lost me on the logos. There is something to be said for tastefully done subdued logos.

Miale
09-15-11, 19:46
the lmt bolt isn't sensitive to anything - the carrier is! i just ran the bolts.

four years, two carbines, numerous rounds shot, zero bolt related issues with the lmt's, one broken colt bolt - sheared the lugs adjacent the extractors in around 3,000 rounds or so. i then switched to the lwd bolt.

ymmv, i've been happy with them