Went to the range today, doesn't anyone else shoot fast?

[Eurodriver]

My buddy and I went to the range today, his birthday's tomorrow so we decided to have a blast (but do it safely)

If you live anywhere near Tampa, FL you know there are not very many places you can shoot as fast as you what, however you want, at whatever you want. We had to drive 2 hours to get to the range and it was worth it.

We brought eleven guns with us and set up 4 targets, each a few feet apart.

I was surprised, I normally shoot pretty rapidly but I've never had so many ROs and shooters ask me if I had "trigger work" done to that gun, or if I was "bump firing" or flat out "Is that a machine gun?"

Anyway, no funny story or any particular subject to get everyone all upset about.

[Belmont31R]

100 Tap Out points for you...:)

[lloydkristmas]

Did you hit anything?

[Eurodriver]

Did you hit anything?

You can't rapidly engage targets accurately?

[RogerinTPA]

What range was this (name and location)?

[ChicagoTex]

In fairness, a lot of ROs don't actually shoot all that often (as they're usually busy watching others shoot and/or working the sales floor, if it's a shop/range). I also think their expectations may have been warped by their usual visiting shooters, who are probably coming from a lot of experience at ranges that don't allow rapid fire, and, as a matter of habit, shoot slower than they probably intend to.

[HES]

What range was this (name and location)?
Same question. That doesn't look like Hernando, and its not Dade City. Did they not open up one in south Hillsborough County? A 2 hour drive? Maybe they were at Manatee?

[Suwannee Tim]

You can't rapidly engage targets accurately?

Not that rapidly. And watching your muzzle bounce around, you can't either. Not to disparage what you are doing, it's fun and I did it when I was a young'un. The fastest I can actually hit with reasonable accuracy is about half your rate of fire or slower depending on the size and distance of the target. To paraphrase another member, "only hits count, you can't miss fast enough to catch up." What's your distance, looks like about 15 yards. Hard to tell from the video.

I've never taken an AR class and fast shooting of center fire rifles is not allowed on my home range so I don't get to do much of it. I do shoot my 22 LR AR as fast as I want and I can't fire aimed shots nearly that fast. I shoot handguns fast and I cannot hit anything shooting that fast, again not even with a 22. I have also watched a number of Vickers and other's videos and I do not see anyone shooting that fast.

It kind of depends on what you mean by accuracy. If you mean keeping most of the bullets on a two by two foot piece of cardboard at 15 yards, I might be able to do that.

The guy in the white shirt can shoot fast, that's a fact.

Just curious, how old are you guys?

[Eurodriver]

Not that rapidly. And watching your muzzle bounce around, you can't either. Not to disparage what you are doing, it's fun and I've done it. The fastest I can actually hit with reasonable accuracy is about half your rate of fire or slower depending on the size and distance of the target. To paraphrase another member, "only hits count, you can't miss fast enough to catch up." What's your distance, looks like about 15 yards. Hard to tell from the video.

I've never taken an AR class and fast shooting of center fire rifles is not allowed on my home range so I don't get to do much of it. I do shoot my 22 LR AR as fast as I want and I can't fire aimed shots nearly that fast. I have shot handguns fast and I cannot hit anything shooting that fast, again not even with a 22. I have also watched a number of Vickers and other's videos and I do not see anyone shooting that fast.

It kind of depends on what you mean by accuracy. If you mean keeping most of the bullets on a two by two foot piece of cardboard at 15 yards, I might be able to do that.

The guy in the white shirt can shoot fast, that's a fact.

I understand what you're saying and I hope this doesn't turn into a pissing match when other people chime in, after all we were just having fun and this type of shooting (mag dumps pretty much) doesn't really have its place in any type of training except for maybe an earth overrun with zombies.

That said, I can easily hit an 10" circle at that distance at that speed, which is what I consider accurate. Does it matter? Not really, when are you ever going to need to dump 30 rounds, save for the previously mentioned zombie apocalypse, into one target? I just like to do it. I like to do hammer pairs and move from target to target (you see me going back and forth with the AK74 in the first video when using the second mag) but with the ACOG at 15 yards moving between 4 targets isn't as easy as a RDS so I tend to shoot more rounds at a time at each target.

It was Manatee Gun Club. Its $18 to shoot all day, active .mil shoot free but no discounts for anyone else. Membership is around $150 a year then its 1$ to shoot. Aside from one dick range officer, everyone that works and volunteers there is great. I really enjoy going there despite the 90 minute drive. They will let you shoot that fast if you're controllable and safe all day long. I have shot pretty rapidly out to 550 yards there in the standing and no one bothered me. No, I didn't hit anything. :cool:

I don't really see the muzzle bouncing around much.

We are both in our mid-20s.

[Suwannee Tim]

The old women who run my home range, Gateway Rifle Pistol Club would shit a brick if you even thought about shooting that fast. I have to admit, it makes me nervous, lots of folks who do that are newbies and don't have any muzzle discipline. It's fun but costly. You can burn ten bux worth of ammo in a few seconds.


I understand what you're saying and I hope this doesn't turn into a pissing match when other people chime in, after all we were just having fun.....

Not from me. I don't begrudge a youngster doing youngster stuff. Hell, I don't even begrudge an old man doing youngster stuff. This from someone who's psychological development was arrested at age fourteen.:D

It's a gas to be fourteen, have a great job, adequate money, access to all the pussy I can handle, a house, a car, neat guns, etcetera, etcetera!

[Quiet-Matt]

My buddy and I went to the range today, his birthday's tomorrow


Videos

http://tinypic.com/r/2qxrqkw/7

First, happy birthday to your friend (It's my son's 4th today).

Second, it made me laugh seeing the people in the background at the range gawking at you and your friend. They were staring at you like you were a couple of hookers in church.

-Matt

_____________

[Army Chief]

I would not consider 10" at 15 yards to be acceptable accuracy for rifle shooting, and I have my doubts about the wisdom of doing mag dumps on public ranges in the first place (think Brady Campaign file footage here), but let's be careful where we take this one, gents. It would appear that most members have just waved-off on commentary altogether, and discretion being the better part of valor, perhaps that is for the best.

AC

[Suwannee Tim]

For reference, I try to hold ten inches at 200 yards, offhand. I'm trying to reduce that. It requires very, very careful trigger control which is undermined by practices such as we see here.

[Eurodriver]

For reference, I try to hold ten inches at 200 yards, offhand. I'm trying to reduce that. It requires very, very careful trigger control which is undermined by practices such as we see here.

I can hit a 12" circle at 200 yards with 100% consistency in the standing with the rifle in the video, or any issue M16A4 or M4 Carbine with iron sights.

I fail to see how having fun and doing mag dumps is in any way an indication of poor shooting ability or undermines more precise shooting. But that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying you're doing it Tim, as I know you're not, but it irritates me because I know half the people who watch this video will assume I'm some 18 year old idiot blasting away with no marksmanship abilities. Do I care? Not really, but I wish people wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

I still don't understand why the AR world can never separate training and fun. If you're doing it right, training sucks. Constantly raising and lowering the muzzle, dropping to one or both knees, running around with gear on. Its nice to just sit at a firing line with a bench in front of you in shorts and a shirt and blast some cheap ammo away.

[Quiet-Matt]

Looks like fun to me!

Sometimes I "train", and sometimes I just want to shoot shit.:big_boss:

Rock on brother.

-Matt

_________________

[ChicagoTex]

I still don't understand why the AR world can never separate training and fun. If you're doing it right, training sucks. Constantly raising and lowering the muzzle, dropping to one or both knees, running around with gear on. Its nice to just sit at a firing line with a bench in front of you in shorts and a shirt and blast some cheap ammo away.

I think it has a lot to do with what people find fun about shooting. Some just enjoy shooting stuff, and that's generally all well and good, but most people pursuing the "tactical" arena (which happens to overlap with a substantial amount of AR enthusiasts) find their ultimate enjoyment in the cultivating and refinement of skills and the knowledge that those skills are present should they ever have need of them in the future.
To the tactically minded individual, things like mag dumps are literally wastes of time and ammo (aka money) because they don't really correlate with any desireable practical skills, nor do they offer much room for tangible improvement.

In my case, my money is extremely valuable to me and my time even moreso, so when I hit the range I try to get as much long-term productivity as I can from the excercise. I won't deny doing so makes my range trips less fun, but it does make my trips more satisfying and goes a long way towards giving me confidence in my abilities and my weapons off the range.

YMMV may vary and all that.

[Eurodriver]

I think it has a lot to do with what people find fun about shooting. Some just enjoy shooting stuff, and that's generally all well and good, but most people pursuing the "tactical" arena (which happens to overlap with a substantial amount of AR enthusiasts) find their ultimate enjoyment in the cultivating and refinement of skills and the knowledge that those skills are present should they ever have need of them in the future.
To the tactically minded individual, things like mag dumps are literally wastes of time and ammo (aka money) because they don't really correlate with any desireable practical skills, nor do they offer much room for tangible improvement.

In my case, my money is extremely valuable to me and my time even moreso, so when I hit the range I try to get as much long-term productivity as I can from the excercise. I won't deny doing so makes my range trips less fun, but it does make my trips more satisfying and goes a long way towards giving me confidence in my abilities and my weapons off the range.

YMMV may vary and all that.

I completely understand, and I will readily admit that there is no "satisfied" feeling after dumping 5 or 6 mags of ammo (30-40 dollars) when you go home that day. Its just fun while you're doing it.

Also, its not like I do this every time I go to the range either. Its not like I really ever do this at the range. If I did, I wouldn't have made and posted videos of it.

I just spent years of my life training to become proficient with weapons and then spent years training others. To be honest, I'm sick of hammer pairs, controlled pairs, sight alignment, sight picture, weak side transitions, kneeling, prone, etc all while wearing 40 pounds of body armor during a 12 hour training event in the rain. I cannot possibly fathom how guys spend 20 years behind the trigger, its worse than manual labor.

[threeheadeddog]

I completely understand, and I will readily admit that there is no "satisfied" feeling after dumping 5 or 6 mags of ammo (30-40 dollars) when you go home that day. Its just fun while you're doing it.

Also, its not like I do this every time I go to the range either. Its not like I really ever do this at the range. If I did, I wouldn't have made and posted videos of it.

I just spent years of my life training to become proficient with weapons and then spent years training others. To be honest, I'm sick of hammer pairs, controlled pairs, sight alignment, sight picture, weak side transitions, kneeling, prone, etc all while wearing 40 pounds of body armor during a 12 hour training event in the rain. I cannot possibly fathom how guys spend 20 years behind the trigger, its worse than manual labor.

Its all in perspective. I have watched an open shooter do basically mag dumbs for 700rds one day without an optic on his gun or a sight of any kind. He was actually doing quite well on the steel but he was only there to break in his newly fitted barrel because it a touch too tight:jester:

[RogerinTPA]

Did you hit anything?

I was thinking the same thing. If folks enjoy doing mag dumps without a purpose, that's OK I guess, but I really don't see the point (same with bump fire devices). I shoot for accuracy, then speed. The only time I shoot that fast is to practice one of the Vtac drills (2x2x2, half and half or 1-5 drills), working on speed and accuracy.

[Eurodriver]

I deleted the videos. I thought about it, and its just not worth it. Too many people here to get upset over some guys trying to have a good time, and what Army Chief said makes sense.

[Suwannee Tim]

I can hit a 12" circle at 200 yards with 100% consistency in the standing with the rifle in the video, or any issue M16A4 or M4 Carbine with iron sights.

I fail to see how having fun and doing mag dumps is in any way an indication of poor shooting ability or undermines more precise shooting. But that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying you're doing it Tim, as I know you're not, but it irritates me because I know half the people who watch this video will assume I'm some 18 year old idiot blasting away with no marksmanship abilities. Do I care? Not really, but I wish people wouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

I still don't understand why the AR world can never separate training and fun. If you're doing it right, training sucks. Constantly raising and lowering the muzzle, dropping to one or both knees, running around with gear on. Its nice to just sit at a firing line with a bench in front of you in shorts and a shirt and blast some cheap ammo away.

The vast majority of youngsters or adults for that matter you see blasting away have no marksmanship ability. In fact, the vast majority of shooters I observe have no marksmanship ability except off a bench. It's a natural if incorrect conclusion that you fall into that category. I find that blasting has a negative effect on my precision shooting but my experience is limited to me. I was working in a machine shop in my early teens and a skilled machinist by the time I was 18. I got used to being underestimated early on. As far as blasting goes, I think I have outgrown it. That's not to belittle those who haven't outgrown it because whether you like to blast or not is not a useful measure of adulthood, manhood, maturity or anything else of importance.

[RogerinTPA]

I deleted the videos. I thought about it, and its just not worth it. Too many people here to get upset over some guys trying to have a good time, and what Army Chief said makes sense.

Yes I did see your videos. My comment wasn't directed at you or the way in which you shoot. It was just a general statement and purpose for why I would shoot fast, accuracy, first and foremost, then speed.

[Suwannee Tim]

For the benefit of those who missed the videos, they are two good looking, clean cut young men, shooting fast and, the one in the white shirt, shooting really fast. They are mostly if not entirely on the paper and I saw no safety issues.

[chadbag]

The only time I do mag dumps any more is when someone shows up with a rifle with a happy switch.

I used to do them anyway when younger. I got them out of my blood back when.

[HES]

It was Manatee Gun Club.
Never thought so. Im trying to get there in October for the FSN shoot.

[markm]

On the square range... I never shoot fast... Just really isn't the optimal setting for that.

I'm guilty of assuming that there's an idiot on the gun when I hear the occasional rapid fire string. I guess I just get sick of their stray bullets screwing up our rifle targets down at the one and two hundo marks. :rolleyes:

[SteyrAUG]

With the exception of things like double taps (where I'm faster than my normal rate of fire), I tend to shoot as fast as I can reasonably hit my targets with acceptable accuracy. I can shoot faster than some and I'm not as fast as others.

Every now and then I will do a single burst dump with an Uzi or MP5 simply for fun, but even then I attempt to keep everything in the black on a large silhouette at say 25 feet. This is of course nothing extraordinary.

I don't have much fascination with mag dumps in semi auto and would much rather do rapid doubles. I try to be able to engage targets with reasonable speed but I prefer hits to suppressive fire.

I've never quite understood the guys who simply want to pull the trigger as fast as possible with complete disregard for hits. Firecrackers are a cheaper way to make pointless noise. Probably why I still can't bump fire to this day, never been interested enough to develop the knack.

I'd love to be faster "if" I could still hit my targets. But I won't be causing Jerry Miculek any kind of concern in the near future.

[markm]

I've never quite understood the guys who simply want to pull the trigger as fast as possible with complete disregard for hits. Firecrackers are a cheaper way to make pointless noise. Probably why I still can't bump fire to this day, never been interested enough to develop the knack.


Yep. Those are the ****tards who should be playing with cap guns.

[Eurodriver]

I've never quite understood the guys who simply want to pull the trigger as fast as possible with complete disregard for hits.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never seen anyone do that.

[Army Chief]

I'd prefer not to take this too far down the path of what constitutes "too fast" or how accurate is "accurate enough," but I will say this: aimed fire is a core tenet of our belief system around here, and for most of us, the faster you're firing, the less impact you're having upon the six-or-so inches of the target that actually matter.

I'm not suggesting that every mag dump qualifies as a reckless act, and yours didn't really give me that sense either; still, I was left to wonder if that distinction was readily apparent to the wide-eyed observers on the other side of the range. My guess is that they didn't go home and tell their friends about your shot groups -- but they probably still haven't stopped talking about your rate-of-fire.

My rule of thumb? Never give anyone -- friend or foe -- a reason to misinterpret your mindset when you have a firearm in your hands.

AC

[Suwannee Tim]

I was at the range today, about three hours in which time I fired 100 5.56s, 30 7.62s and 10 450 Bushmaster shots, no 22 LRs today, normally I would shoot 100 or so. There were a couple of old men, one was old, old, old, 85 or older. He fired 100 5.56s in about 20 minutes. Fast as he could load a magazine, he would empty it in the minimum allowed 2 sec/shot * 20 shots = 40 seconds. Then it would take him 3-1/2 minutes to load another 20 shots. It was like watching a tortoise race.:D

[SteyrAUG]

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never seen anyone do that.

I have been to ranges where people don't even set up targets. They just pull triggers and send rounds thataway. They literally are just there to "shoot their guns", they aren't trying to hit anything.

My favorite was a gaggle of yahoos who were shooting a WASR AK at the berm (no targets of any kind set up) and one of the serious operators held the rifle in front of him without shouldering the rifle in any way and let loose about 12 rounds as fast as he could in an attempt to simulate full auto fire and then had the audacity to say "Wow...you can really hold this thing on target..."

[Army Chief]

Just to be clear, we can examine the issue of rapid fire and conduct at public ranges and such, but none of this is intended to be personal, nor in any way directed against the OP as a kind of after-the-fact indictment.

Share, read, consider and learn, but let's strive to keep this a drama-free zone. So far, so good.

Thanks,
AC

[Suwannee Tim]

I have been to ranges where people don't even set up targets. They just pull triggers and send rounds thataway. They literally are just there to "shoot their guns", they aren't trying to hit anything......."

I was at a public range some months ago and helped a youngster and took a liking to him. Just as they were leaving I offered to let them shoot an AR. I loaded 20 (a mistake) and handed it to him. Sure as shit, he fired all 20 in about 5 seconds, not aiming. :mad: What a waste.