View Full Version : forward assist?
When was the last time you used the forward assist on your SHTF/HD carbine?
The reason I ask is, I noticed on the Noveske Thunder Ranch rifle there is no FA.
Thank you
I find the F/A useless on any rifle. If a round doesn't wanna feed, who am I to try and force it in? Get rid of it, feed the next and move on. While they served a purpose in the past, the rifle and training procedures have evolved to make the addition a pointless feature.
Have and not need. I won't have a SHTF rifle without a F/A, because if you actually need it, you will be pounding on that ****er to get it into battery.
JR TACTICAL
09-11-11, 14:41
I have never used the FA on any of my rifles yet, I do like the option though especially on my SHTF rifle just in case I would ever need it
On this historical side...as far as I recall, Eugene Stoner did not include a FA on the original design. It was something the military wanted added. I believe part of the reasoning was to do "silent loading." Although that sounds a bit silly to me.
If you can't get a round fully into battery, better to get it out of there and get another one in. Jamming it in with the FA can cause problems.
But, there is some merit to having a FA, like doing an admin load. Dropping the mag to ensure a round was stripped from the mag and chambered is an alternate technique.
In extreme cold weather, frozen condensation and / or lubricant can create conditions where having a FA is helpful in getting a round into battery.
In summary, the FA is probably not an absolute necessity for most applications. But I'm of the persuasion that I'd rather have and not need than need and not have.
I've seen it used after walking the bolt carrier in. Pretty much you do it to keep the noise down. In my case a friend was doing it while we were hunting coyotes. Pretty much just trying to keep the noise down.
It has use but in very limited situations. I'd rather have it then not.
If ya gotta pound on it to get it in, you're gonna have to pound on it to get it back out.
In all the years of shooting, I have only forced one round into a chamber. That was when I was a kid and it was in a bolt action with a soldered handle. I broke the handle off trying to get the action open again.
With the exception of quietly chambering a round, I've never used the "forward assist" on any self loading rifle with the exception of My Garand. When charging My Garand with a fresh clip, for some reason the bolt does not strip the first round on it's own, so the routine is to lightly bump the charging handle to get it going. My FAL and PTR do not have an FA and I haven't noticed the lack.
I did pay the extra coin to get the forward assist on the VLTOR MUR upper used to build my precision AR, but if I had it to do over, I'd skip it to get a cleaner profile and save money
Wormydog1724
09-11-11, 17:38
I've seen 3 guys with uppers without FA not able to get the BCG to seat. Was it a round issue? No. They racked the charging handle only to find the next round wouldn't go in. Extracted that one and guess what, the next round wouldn't go in. Changed mags and the same thing. Sometimes one would go and it would fire, but it wasn't reliable. This was only at a 3 gun match and action rifle match and they ended up zeroing the stage because they couldn't continue. If this had been a life or death situation, they would have been dead meat. Laugh if you want. Their rifles were a little dirty, maybe 200 since last thorough cleaning, and their ammo was brass, not wolf. Simply racking the round out and hoping the next round seats doesn't always work.
I did a test of my Spike's NiB BCG when I first got it and did close to 800 without lube or any kind of cleaning or maintenance. From about 600 on, the gas key was heavily crudded with carbon and the gas tube wouldn't go inside it, hence it wouldn't go into battery. A good hard tap on the FA and I was back to normal. During the course of fire I didn't have to worry about it. But when I did a mag change, a FA tap was necessary.
I will ALWAYS have a FA on my rifles. Always better to have and not need than to need and not have. Same with a spare bolt, firing pin, back up iron sights, spare mag on my belt during a stage, ect ect ect. What REALLY is gained by not having a FA? A few ounces in weight? A few dollars?
MeanStreaker
09-11-11, 17:39
I have never used the FA on any of my rifles yet, I do like the option though especially on my SHTF rifle just in case I would ever need it
Ditto.
in all honesty, I've never HAD to use the FA. but without one, there is no mechanism to chamber a round other than spring pressure and momentum.
I can't guarantee that every round from every mag is going to seat fully every time and I have made it a habit of tapping the FA after loading a new mag if I have the time.
I find no adverse affects from having one on there and it makes me happy to know I have the capability if I ever need it...
If ya gotta pound on it to get it in, you're gonna have to pound on it to get it back out.
In all the years of shooting, I have only forced one round into a chamber. That was when I was a kid and it was in a bolt action with a soldered handle. I broke the handle off trying to get the action open again.
With the exception of quietly chambering a round, I've never used the "forward assist" on any self loading rifle with the exception of My Garand. When charging My Garand with a fresh clip, for some reason the bolt does not strip the first round on it's own, so the routine is to lightly bump the charging handle to get it going. My FAL and PTR do not have an FA and I haven't noticed the lack.
I did pay the extra coin to get the forward assist on the VLTOR MUR upper used to build my precision AR, but if I had it to do over, I'd skip it to get a cleaner profile and save money
Thank you for being the first person evaaar to use "CLIP" in a sentence correctly.
Like others have said, if you have to jam it in, you're gonna have to rip it out. It didn't go in for a reason.
in all honesty, I've never HAD to use the FA. but without one, there is no mechanism to chamber a round other than spring pressure and momentum.
I can't guarantee that every round from every mag is going to seat fully every time and I have made it a habit of tapping the FA after loading a new mag if I have the time.
I find no adverse affects from having one on there and it makes me happy to know I have the capability if I ever need it...
This ^^
John_Burns
09-11-11, 17:59
I use it every time I load the gun during the press check.
Retract bolt slightly to verify chamber is loaded
Use palm of hand to push forward assist to verify bolt is fully in battery.
Use finger tips to close dust cover.
I think the fa is very important on a fighting rifle. I think sometimes proper use of the fa is not understood. It I not meant to jam a round in but to ensure the bolt is fully forward. When can the bolt end up not fully forward? Two cases are common:
1) Rifle is dirty or gunked up. It's easy to say that you should never let your rifle be in such a condition and it is easy enough to prevent, fir the most part over here. Overseas, it's not always possible to keep your rifle perfectly clean at all times. You're not even going to want to speed oil your bolt much less clean your rifle on a two way range.
2) Charging handle press check. If you pull the charging handle back slightly o press check when you are loading, hit the fa to ensure the bolt is fully forward since we have not allowed the full force of the buffer spring to push the bolt forward. This is the equivalent of presschecking your glock (really any pistol) and forcibly pushing the slide forward to ensure slide is in battery.
I guess it depends on your usage but I will never buy a rifle without a fa. But the idea that the fa us there to jam a round in is false.
billybob19606
09-11-11, 19:32
Im assuming that pushing depression on the BCG wouldnt work as well as pushing the forward assist?
Heavy Metal
09-11-11, 19:39
My rule of thumb on the Forward Assist is anything more than simple thumb pressure is more apt to induce more problems than it solves.
'Palm-Smacking' it ia a huge no-go. It can break and stick the pawl or force an oversized round enough into battery to make it almost impossible to extract by hand but not enought to go fully into battery and shoot it out.
Tap, Rack Bang should be the order of the day. The Forward Assist plays no part in that.
It is a device useful for strictly administrative functions only IMO.
Heavy Metal
09-11-11, 19:43
Im assuming that pushing depression on the BCG wouldnt work as well as pushing the forward assist?
The advantage here is you can get enough leverage to close it if nothing is seriously amiss,I.E. like a press check, but not enough leverage to royally **** yourself.
My rule of thumb on the Forward Assist is anything more than simple thumb pressure is more apt to induce more problems than it solves.
'Palm-Smacking' it ia a huge no-go. It can break and stick the pawl or force an oversized round enough into battery to make it almost impossible to extract by hand but not enought to go fully into battery and shoot it out.
Tap, Rack Bang should be the order of the day. The Forward Assist plays no part in that.
It is a device useful for strictly administrative functions only IMO.
Agreed. In my post, I said "hit" the fa. I should have said push the fa. Wacking the hell out of it could definitely cause more harm than good. And the fa has no place in malfunction clearing. The two scenarios I mention in my post are the only time I engage the fa.
Good point brother.
I have to admit to being guilty of hyperbole, not intentionally, however. Giving it a bit more thought, I do have to admit to using the FA on other rifles when a round didn't quite seat because of a press check, fouling or started getting a bit dry. But it was a gentle shove, something I did automatically. If it took more than that, I cleared the round from the weapon. Other than a press check or a quiet load, I don't recall ever using the FA on an AR. Maybe once.
I will not tell anyone to ditch their FA, nor would I spend the time or money to delete the FA from my existing AR. Matter of fact, the rifle kit I'm waiting delivery on has an FA and I didn't stop to think whether it had one or not when I ordered it.
Upon reflection, an FA may be something rarely, if ever, needed, but when needed, it's needed now. Much like carrying a spare tire
I have to admit to being guilty of hyperbole, not intentionally, however. Giving it a bit more thought, I do have to admit to using the FA on other rifles when a round didn't quite seat because of a press check, fouling or started getting a bit dry. But it was a gentle shove, something I did automatically. If it took more than that, I cleared the round from the weapon. Other than a press check or a quiet load, I don't recall ever using the FA on an AR. Maybe once.
I will not tell anyone to ditch their FA, nor would I spend the time or money to delete the FA from my existing AR. Matter of fact, the rifle kit I'm waiting delivery on has an FA and I didn't stop to think whether it had one or not when I ordered it.
Upon reflection, an FA may be something rarely, if ever, needed, but when needed, it's needed now. Much like carrying a spare tire
I hear you brother. I would just say that as an admin procedure, you should push the fa everytime you press check using the charging handle for reasons mentioned in previous posts. Note that I am only talking about admin procedures. The fa has no place following any immediate action (IMO) as the point of ia is to get you back in the fight pronto! I know it may not seem like a big deal but it takes only a second, it's preformed in safety, and just adds a little bit of insurance. Just my opinion.
John_Burns
09-11-11, 21:19
Here is a short video that shows the proper use of the FA in a press check.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM
in all honesty, I've never HAD to use the FA. but without one, there is no mechanism to chamber a round other than spring pressure and momentum.
Roll the BCG forward softly, then when the bolt picks up the top round and begins to chamber it, (presuming right handed here) place your right thumb from underneath or left index finger from around the front, or over the top if you've got a lot of empty real estate in that area on a flat top, into the dust cover recess where the pressure release holes are in the carrier.
From there you can push the bolt home, or back it out a bit to confirm a chambered round.
Works quite well unless things are really bag nasty dirty, and then still works with a bit of effort.
Here is a short video that shows the proper use of the FA in a press check.
Interesting that he closes the dust cover just after the FA press.
Likely not something I'd do if I knew I was going hot within just a couple seconds. Though I suppose it it follows an ingrained plan of motion it doesn't hurt anything.
polydeuces
09-15-11, 07:45
Upgrading to blue Sprinco Buffer spring has made using the FA a non-issue for me. Even w press-checks.
It REALLY made it run different/better. As a matter of fact, it ranks pretty much in the top 5 of my "must have on my AR" list
What say ye?
Use it all the time for a couple of reasons. Wouldn't run a serious gun without one.
I use it every time I load the gun during the press check.
Retract bolt slightly to verify chamber is loaded
Use palm of hand to push forward assist to verify bolt is fully in battery.
Use finger tips to close dust cover.
Yes. To check for a loaded chamber, pull charging handle back just far enough to pop the ejection port cover. Then either visually or with a finger, verify that there is a round in the chamber. Then, let the bolt fly forward and give the forward assist a tap for good measure.
Bonus points for closing the dust cover when you're done, too.
madcratebuilder
09-15-11, 17:15
Thank you for being the first person evaaar to use "CLIP" in a sentence correctly.
Like others have said, if you have to jam it in, you're gonna have to rip it out. It didn't go in for a reason.
Clip is often used to describe a M1 Garand "En Bloc", but en bloc is the correct terminology.
As far as a FA, I feel it's needed on a self defence rifle. For reduced noise, checking for a loaded chamber and even for a dirty chamber. I would not beat on the FA to seat a round but thumb pressure is fine. It's not really needed for a precision bench rifle.
I will ALWAYS have a FA on my rifles. Always better to have and not need than to need and not have. What REALLY is gained by not having a FA? A few ounces in weight? A few dollars?
Couldn't agree more. granted my rifle is just a range bitch and nothing more..I have used the FA once or twice before. generally if I ever need to use it and one or two EASY pushes doesnt load the round, I extract and load a new one. I believe the one time or two times I used it it was nothing more then the bolt didnt lock foward all the way and needed a slight tap.
Magic_Salad0892
09-15-11, 18:03
I don't like the Bolt Assist.
IMHO, it has no place clearing the weapon.
IMHO, it has no place loading, or reloading the weapon.
I can just use thumb pressure to make sure the bolt is forward during a press check, and not have to worry about having too much pressure.
Less parts count added.
Less weight.
Looks way cooler.
Also, I think that if you even need to use a bolt assist, something already went wrong, and ****ing with the bolt assist is going to make it worse. If you do it under pressure (speed) you may (probably will, at least I will) apply too much force accidentally, and rape yourself.
I don't keep the port door/dust cover on either. I take it off. No use. Flame shield on.
I don't keep the port door/dust cover on either. I take it off. No use. Flame shield on.
you must live somewhere were it rains and everything stays moist, no dust/sand blowing around..
Magic_Salad0892
09-15-11, 21:08
you must live somewhere were it rains and everything stays moist, no dust/sand blowing around..
Even in the desert like parts, there's been no trouble. But yeah, you're right.
Even in the desert like parts, there's been no trouble. But yeah, you're right.
when you say desert like parts, do you just mean sandy and hot? maybe a cactus or 40?
here, even on calm days we get nice dust filled breezes that is visibly nasty.
i shot at blackwater once, fired a few rounds off and IIRC had a missfeed because I didnt fully insert the mag, when tuning the rifle left to check the bolt I could see all the nasty dirt and tiny pieces of grass collecting on the dust cover and part of the bolt.
Magic_Salad0892
09-15-11, 21:23
when you say desert like parts, do you just mean sandy and hot? maybe a cactus or 40?
Yeah. Pretty much. Not talcum power like sand. Just grainy I-hate-this-crap kind of sand.
If it was that powdery crap though, I'd reconsider my choice. Maybe.
Ever been to Oregon?
Clip is often used to describe a M1 Garand "En Bloc", but en bloc is the correct terminology.
The Garand uses an en bloc clip as opposed to a stripper clip. Both are clip types
I live in the desert and have spent the last 5 years or so in the M.E. if you use good lube and follow basic maintenance then the dust cover makes no difference at all- IME.
you must live somewhere were it rains and everything stays moist, no dust/sand blowing around..
hnl.flyboy
09-16-11, 15:42
Last used my FA today at the range on my M16A4. After being in the field for a week and firing a lot of blanks & M855, it'll get dirty. Yes, I did clean it daily, but it gunked up quick after I ran out of CLP. After mag xx on a dry bolt, sending the bolt home on its own power after the last round from the previous mag locked it back made the first round fail to chamber all the way. A quick, sharp tap to the FA pushed the bolt all the way and allowed me to fire again.
Magic_Salad0892
09-16-11, 15:55
I live in the desert and have spent the last 5 years or so in the M.E. if you use good lube and follow basic maintenance then the dust cover makes no difference at all- IME.
Do you keep the port door on?
polydeuces
09-16-11, 16:15
My latest attempt to go lighter.
:jester:
In all seriousness, been running fine like this for the last few weeks (give or take ~1200 rds).
But then again, all we have here is rain. And love bugs.....
deadlyfire
09-16-11, 18:14
I have used my forward assist many different times, then again I was brought up on using it.
My two cents worth. My old army training taught that once we chamber a round, we hit the forward assist twice, just to ensure the bolt is as far forward as possible. Yes, it is antiquated, outdated and maybe not needed, but I love the forward assist. I still practice the two hit technique! Another reason I love it is, with the old M-16 A1, with the tear drop F/A, if you were in a tactical march and lucky enough to be on the right column, you could hook that F/A onto your alice belt, saving some stain of full carry for a few minutes, felt great! If you were on the left column, you were SOL!
Heavy Metal
09-16-11, 23:16
I hear you brother. I would just say that as an admin procedure, you should push the fa everytime you press check using the charging handle for reasons mentioned in previous posts. Note that I am only talking about admin procedures. The fa has no place following any immediate action (IMO) as the point of ia is to get you back in the fight pronto! I know it may not seem like a big deal but it takes only a second, it's preformed in safety, and just adds a little bit of insurance. Just my opinion.
Good point. Every time I think of S.P.O.R.T.S. my head hurts. It is a ****ed-up attempt to half-assedly combine immediate action and remedial action. SPORTS is not immediate action, it is a Huey Lewis album.
No trainer worth his salt still teaches it.
Yes. There will be a day when your bolt looks like it is covered in some nasty grimy sludge and you won't be at the range. The weapon will fire normally until you reload and try as you might the bolt will not go home, 9 rounds later it happens again, tap, rack, ef, rack, ef, forward assist, bang. Problem never returns and never determined.
I don't have the downrange round counts of many on this site, but I have shot thousands. The only time I've even touched the F/A was when a less than properly resized handload, by me, that would not go into the chamber. Hitting the F/A didn't solve the problem. I do lick my lips before firing a string of shots however.
RO'ing 3-gun matches has made a forward assist believer out of me.
I wish I had $1 for every slick-sided AR that had problems chambering a round that a quick forward-assist bump would have fixed.
But instead of a 2 second f-a bump, the shooter ends up racking 1 or 2 rounds out on the ground or having to remove the magazine and start over. It just gets worse the hotter and dirtier the guns get.
I'll take a forward-assist everytime.
The dust cover is mandatory where I live. My "truck gun" AR rides on the seat next to me in and by the end of the day is covered in fine silt.
It's even worse when it rides on the rack in the Rhino. Southeast New Mexico, far west Texas desert silt is some ugly stuff that will coat the BCG in a heartbeat and cause cycling issues, no matter how well lubed you are.
It's no big deal to do a magazine tug, press check, forward-assist bump and close the dust cover when loading up. It's a quick easy routine that will help prevent a lot of problems.
I think a lot of competition shooters focus more on "softest shooting" rather than reliable function, a forward assist doesn't fix that.
This is on initial load and make ready and reloads, not during strings of fire.
A forward-assist most definitely makes a difference in bumping a slightly out of battery due to crud or stiff mag springs bcg into battery.
Lighter springs and/or carriers will have a harder time stripping a round.
Hw often do you USE the airbags in your car? Wouldnt you rather them be there in case you need them?
They save lives.
Thats what the FA did. Just because you dont use it dont mean you should get rid of it.
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