re: PA Police Dept OIS Report. Thoughts?

[Nephrology]

Just wanted to post this and see what you guys all thought of it.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

warning: graphic content!

The weirdest thing to me is the throat shot with the .40 SW. Based on the cadaver photos, the round entered the neck at an acute angle and then, based on the X-ray, did a 180 and lodged itself angled inferiorly and parallel to the coronal plane.

Crazy stuff.

Thoughts on the Hornady ? I am very unfamiliar with rifle wound ballistics so perhaps others can chime in here...

[bulbvivid]

Just to let folks know, there are graphic images in the report, might not be safe for work or children.

[Nephrology]

Just to let folks know, there are graphic images in the report, might not be safe for work or children.

Thanks for that, I totally forgot ...

[DocGKR]

STOP!!!

I can scarcely believe this garbage is still showing up...

Why is this event from 2006 still an issue? As discussed in multiple previous threads, following the PA shooting incident, the initial poorly done autopsy report by a doctor who was very inexperienced with GSW trauma created quite a controversy when it was discussed on NTOA; numerous emails went flying about and there was much outcry. The PD asked the FBI to help with the analysis. They produced a briefing that was sent to the PD; unfortunately, a bastardized incomplete version of this report found its way onto the internet (as noted in the link) and has gone on to create even more controversy by folks who do not know what they are looking at. The FBI document was NOT authorized to be publicly released and the person who stole it was severely disciplined. This BS keeps cropping up, no matter how many times we have publicly attempted to set the record straight--I personally have posted about this at TF, LF, M4C, and 10-8. Both the .40 and .223 rounds performed as expected based on lab testing--remember, there is a reason we always state that fragile .223 varmint and OTM projectiles are NOT a good choice for LE patrol use where vehicles and other intermediate barriers are present. See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881 and https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Repeating misinformation over this document and incident is an indubitable indicator that the person is blind, illiterate, ignorant, or perhaps some combination of these three afflictions.

As the FBI document states:


"There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only."

I for one do NOT want to be involved with any entity where such misinformation is tolerated.

Let's all appropriately use the SEARCH function and refrain from proliferating meretricious swill.

[Nephrology]

STOP!!!

I can scarcely believe this garbage is still showing up...

Why is this event from 2006 still an issue? As discussed in multiple previous threads, following the PA shooting incident, the initial poorly done autopsy report by a doctor who was very inexperienced with GSW trauma created quite a controversy when it was discussed on NTOA; numerous emails went flying about and there was much outcry. The PD asked the FBI to help with the analysis. They produced a briefing that was sent to the PD; unfortunately, a bastardized incomplete version of this report found its way onto the internet (as noted in the link) and has gone on to create even more controversy by folks who do not know what they are looking at. The FBI document was NOT authorized to be publicly released and the person who stole it was severely disciplined. This BS keeps cropping up, no matter how many times we have publicly attempted to set the record straight--I personally have posted about this at TF, LF, M4C, and 10-8. Both the .40 and .223 rounds performed as expected based on lab testing--remember, there is a reason we always state that fragile .223 varmint and OTM projectiles are NOT a good choice for LE patrol use where vehicles and other intermediate barriers are present. See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881 and https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Repeating misinformation over this document and incident is an indubitable indicator that the person is blind, illiterate, ignorant, or perhaps some combination of these three afflictions.

As the FBI document states:



I for one do NOT want to be involved with any entity where such misinformation is tolerated.

Let's all appropriately use the SEARCH function and refrain from proliferating meretricious swill.

Sorry about that, I just for whatever reason assumed this hadn't been posted yet....

The conclusions slide seemed pretty even handed, however, in that it states that the .40 did not fail and that the .223 performed to manufacturer's specs but not to FBI standards....

I for one was more interested by the X-ray of the unexpanded .40 in the perp's throat. Didn't think it was anything wrong with the bullet, just a neat trick of physics and dumb luck.

edit : The document that I posted is the FBI report.

[KhanRad]

I for one was more interested by the X-ray of the unexpanded .40 in the perp's throat. Didn't think it was anything wrong with the bullet, just a neat trick of physics and dumb luck.

edit : The document that I posted is the FBI report.

Do we know what the bullets did before they entered the perp's body? Did they pass through some sort of barrier first?.......did they ricochet off something first? Shooting at someone behind cover is never a clean shoot. A lot of the time you're trying to shoot through their cover, ricochet off a wall or pavement, or frag them if you have the ammo and can't get a shot on them directly. The bullet that hit his humerus and broke it is more representative of a what a .40(or any service caliber) would do after penetrating the tissue of the arm or neck. Another OIS I can recall involved a perp who shot the officer in the arm with a .38spl and it shattered his humerus as well. Something happened to that bullet that struck him in the neck to dramatically slow it down first.

The idea that a 180gr bonded JHP, with a sectional density of .160, traveling at almost 1000fps and only penetrating 1" in tissue is not only the worst form of idiocy.........it is impossible.

[CoryCop25]

This happened about 45 minutes from my house. I know people that were involved in this. First, the idiot pathologist traced the bullet paths in the body backwards. Second, the cops were ambushed. This bad guy planned this. He was wanted for homicide. The rounds performed as designed. The 40 cal round in the neck came through the arm, into the chest cavity and came to rest in the neck. There were several changes and updates made after this incident. There were G-36 rifles used, I don't know where they got M-4s from. This is a horrible example of wound ballistics and a great example of how someone can fight even with a shit ton of holes in them. The officers involved in this did a great job at hitting center mass of the target that was available to them.
The chief of the department next to mine was recently retired from the department where this occurred. The day after this happened, he pulled all of the Speer Gold Dot ammo from the department and issued Hornady TAP. My cheif called me and asked about doing the same and I told him no because I was sure there was a problem with the report.
The bad guy, knowing he was going to jail for the rest of his life, called in a disturbance and when the officers arrived, he came out from behind a vehicle and started firing. The first officer on scene was hit in the wrist and could not get out of his vehicle. Thankfully, there were other officers arriving at the same time.

[Nephrology]

I was under the impression that most of the handgun rounds went through some part of a car first, but even after reading the FBI report a couple of times I am having trouble visualizing the order of events. Does anybody have a more detailed AAR for this shooting?

[DocGKR]

Nephrology--As noted above, what you have linked to is NOT the complete report on this incident...

[Team Chuck Norris]

Nephrology--As noted above, what you have linked to is NOT the complete report on this incident...



Would it be beneficial to members of this site to have access to the complete report, if in fact that is possible? If so, can a link be posted?

Alternatively, if the complete report is not available, is there a redacted report which is nonetheless accurate as to its facts and its conclusions? If so, can that link be posted?

If the link in the OP is to an incomplete report which is misleading (or worse) as to the facts and conclusions, then this thread should be closed/terminated, if correct facts and correct conclusions, at least in some form, are not available. To fail to do so would only perpetuate harm.

[Iraqgunz]

I agree with Doc Roberts on this. It's closed for now unless there is compelling information to re-open it.