View Full Version : Good bye, Glock...
I posted in the training section a few weeks back about some problems I was having with my Glock 19; or rather, shooting it well. Thanks to all who responded...I took to heart your comments, dry fired, tried different grips and trigger finger placements...to little avail. Last Saturday I shot a whopping 8" group low and to the left at 5 yards. I took a leap of faith, got rid of it, and got a SIG p239 in .40. I am much happier with it, and I shoot it a hell of a lot better, shooting fist-sized groups at 20 yards. I appreciate everyone's input, and while I appreciate Glock's ubiquity, durability, and quality engineering, it just wasn't the CCW pistol for me.
Good to hear that you are shooting better with the new gat. Although the 239 may not be durable in the long run with the .40.
Good luck.
Nephrology
09-16-11, 08:56
Fair enough, you gave it a go. enjoy your new pistol!
To each his own. Most people like the single trigger condition of striker fired pistols and shoot them better than DA/SA. I'm actually the opposite. Give me a good DA/SA like a Sig or H&K and I'll keep it COM all day long.
Good luck with your P239, and stick with 180gr loads.
Hurray! More Glocks for me....:D
Seriously though, no use hanging on to a pistol that does not work for you.
I was in the same Boat a few years Back I Had a Glock 30 for CCW I hated the way it felt in my hand I could shoot it well enough .But to Me it was like holding a 2x4 .I ended up getting a HK Usp compact 45 and it fits like a glove and I really shoot a lot better with it .
I had a P239 in 9mm when they first came out and Loved it .
But I sold it and jumped on the Glock Bandwagon and found out that I am Not a big fan of the Striker pistols .I like SA /DA Better .Good luck on your P239 and Now Shoot the hell out of it :D
No one pistol fits everyone, that is why God gave us so many choices. If you get a chance handle either an HK P2000SK or a USP 40c. I had a P239 in .40S&W and it was a fine pistol but I really like my P2000SK much better and I shoot it better also. Good luck with your journey.
RogerinTPA
09-17-11, 10:23
Good luck with your choice. Don't be surprised down the road when you find yourself drifting towards the M&P40. Especially if you plan on shooting the piss out of it. ;)
tothe OP i think you would have been happy with thr grip on a GEN 2 glock i find that the only thing the gun needed in order to make it perfect was a light rail. the grip on GEN 2's is just natural at least for me it is and i shoot most M&P's
I....... Last Saturday I shot a whopping 8" group low and to the left at 5 yards. ...................
It's good that you are happy but I think anyone shooting 8" at 5 yards has some problems with the fundamentals of shooting no matter what pistol they have in hand.
It's good that you are happy but I think anyone shooting 8" at 5 yards has some problems with the fundamentals of shooting no matter what pistol they have in hand.
That's fair, and I have asked the same question. I do not shoot any other gun this poorly, and I do not know the answer. With time and more practice would I have become better? Sure, but it was becoming frustrating and unenjoyable to shoot.
That was not a shot at you. I carry Glocks as my go to guns and I am very proficient with them. But I can shoot any of my guns including DA/SA S & Ws better than 8" at 5 yards. I think there is more to the equation for your issue than just a Glock pistol.
If the problem for you was the Glock alone, I would expect a tighter group that was off the POA, but at least a consistent miss. 8" at 5 yards is a huge group.
Nephrology
09-17-11, 16:01
Good point DWood.
How are your first shots, BTW, with the P239? That is to say how well do ou shoot the DA Pull?
Good point DWood.
How are your first shots, BTW, with the P239? That is to say how well do ou shoot the DA Pull?
My only DA/SA is a SW 3913. The DA first shot takes a lot of focus for me to be accurate, but my groups are better than 8". With a a consistent trigger like a Glock's a shooter may miss POA, but the group should not be 8" at 15'.
Good point DWood.
How are your first shots, BTW, with the P239? That is to say how well do ou shoot the DA Pull?
The DA pull is fine. I have much more experience with SIG. The DA with the 239 seems heavier than with the 220 or 226, but I have not shot the 239 enough to get a good feel for comparison. Alls I know is my groups with the 239 are similar to my groups with my other SIGs, about fist-sized, and out to 20 yards. I would be happy to shoot with a diagnostician to see why the difference. Could the sights on the Glock have been jacked as they were after-market and installed by who-knows-who? Could it have been some after-market manipulation to the ignition system? No clue. But I shot it horribly.
Good luck w/ the sig, I wouldn't have done that, but what do I know -
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-17-11, 19:43
My 239 was problem free, but alas, was simply the wrong gun for me. Enjoy yours.
I spent a solid year a while back trying to shoot a G17 well, and failing. Talk about frustrating! One day I brought out an ancient 1911, and in spite of the awful sights, awful trigger, and having to hold off did far better. I traded that Glock off for TWO nice Security Sixes and thought I had made the deal of the century.
About a year ago I picked up a S&W Sigma just for the heck of it. For some reason I shot it very well out of the box.
Had the same experience with the SIG 220. A friend of mine shoots them fast and accurately. I can't. With a nice 1911 I'm in heaven.
Sometimes the magic works; sometimes it doesn't. I don't fight it anymore.
with more practice you should be able to transfer from one platform to another with little loss in accuracy. I swap between glocks 1911 smith revovlers sigs and 22 target pistols with no problem. I encourage EVERYONE to have and train with a 22. lots of cheap practice- slow down and shoot at bulseye targets nothing will improve the fundamentals better than bullseye.
To each his own. Most people like the single trigger condition of striker fired pistols and shoot them better than DA/SA. I'm actually the opposite. Give me a good DA/SA like a Sig or H&K and I'll keep it COM all day long.
Good luck with your P239, and stick with 180gr loads.
I'm even better with the H&K LEM trigger than I was with a stock M&P.
Different guns fit people differently.
D.S. Brown
09-25-11, 08:46
Chuckman,
Curious, how many of those .40 caliber shots in a fist size hole were shot double action?
I ask because I notice a lot of people I've come in contact with like to shoot their Sigs, and any other double action/single action handgun, almost exclusively in single action mode. Even when it's a defensive/ccw gun, and if carried properly and used properly the first shot in said defensive encounter will be double action.
A case in point. I was training a student yesterday, and next to us was a person training in transition skills with a 12 gauge shotgun, (using slugs), and a 9mm P226. His target was at 12 yards, and there was a nice hole in the center wear he was tagging it with the 9mm. I noticed that ALL of his shots with the Sig were fired single action. I politely inquired why he was doing that if he was training to transition to a smaller gun. He said he very rarely shoots double action because his groups aren't anywhere as good. He continued to do shoot single action even though he acknowledged that yes in a defensive encounter his first shot with the Sig would be double action, since he can't carry it with the hammer cocked back. I bid him good luck.
Anyway this isn't the first time I've heard of someone shooting a Sig and/or a 1911 better than a Glock, only to find out the VAST majority of the shooting with the double action/single action is done single action.
So if you're keeping a fist size hole at 20 yards with the VAST majority of your shooting being double action, then yes that's pretty impressive.
Best of luck with the P239.
Best,
Dave
Chuckman,
Curious, how many of those .40 caliber shots in a fist size hole were shot double action?
I ask because I notice a lot of people I've come in contact with like to shoot their Sigs, and any other double action/single action handgun, almost exclusively in single action mode. Even when it's a defensive/ccw gun, and if carried properly and used properly the first shot in said defensive encounter will be double action.
A case in point. I was training a student yesterday, and next to us was a person training in transition skills with a 12 gauge shotgun, (using slugs), and a 9mm P226. His target was at 12 yards, and there was a nice hole in the center wear he was tagging it with the 9mm. I noticed that ALL of his shots with the Sig were fired single action. I politely inquired why he was doing that if he was training to transition to a smaller gun. He said he very rarely shoots double action because his groups aren't anywhere as good. He continued to do shoot single action even though he acknowledged that yes in a defensive encounter his first shot with the Sig would be double action, since he can't carry it with the hammer cocked back. I bid him good luck.
Anyway this isn't the first time I've heard of someone shooting a Sig and/or a 1911 better than a Glock, only to find out the VAST majority of the shooting with the double action/single action is done single action.
So if you're keeping a fist size hole at 20 yards with the VAST majority of your shooting being double action, then yes that's pretty impressive.
Best of luck with the P239.
Best,
Dave
I'd say about a third of my shots were double action. I found that practicing the DA shots makes my SA shooting better. I do drill controlled pairs with a first shot DA followed BY a SA shot to keep the two-shot groups close.
I'd say about a third of my shots were double action. I found that practicing the DA shots makes my SA shooting better. I do drill controlled pairs with a first shot DA followed BY a SA shot to keep the two-shot groups close.
That's excellent advice for practicing if you're going to be carrying a DA/SA pistol. It really does improve your trigger control.
I noticed that my brother in law would always cock the hammer and then start in on the target. I tried to tell him that he'd be better off working on the DA pull, but ppl tend to do what they want.
I posted in the training section a few weeks back about some problems I was having with my Glock 19; or rather, shooting it well. Thanks to all who responded...I took to heart your comments, dry fired, tried different grips and trigger finger placements...to little avail. Last Saturday I shot a whopping 8" group low and to the left at 5 yards.
Louis Awerbuck hands this chart out at his pistol courses. I saw a lot of guys change their POI by making corrections to their techinique based on the chart. Note that many of his low and low-left POI problems tend to be Glock-specific.
http://SSEquine.net/pistolchart.jpg
I'm glad you found one that works well for you. I seem to just buy them and never get rid of them There is something about those DA/SA that I just can't get out of my system.:D
SW-Shooter
10-21-11, 23:42
For future reference, you should never give up on a gun that you can't shoot well. If it feels good in your hand, and fits you, you should take the time and at least try to become proficient with it. I've learned that over the years you may not have the luxury of picking your firearm and may have to deal with what you got. You gave up on the staple of 9mm handguns..
Alaskapopo
10-22-11, 01:02
I posted in the training section a few weeks back about some problems I was having with my Glock 19; or rather, shooting it well. Thanks to all who responded...I took to heart your comments, dry fired, tried different grips and trigger finger placements...to little avail. Last Saturday I shot a whopping 8" group low and to the left at 5 yards. I took a leap of faith, got rid of it, and got a SIG p239 in .40. I am much happier with it, and I shoot it a hell of a lot better, shooting fist-sized groups at 20 yards. I appreciate everyone's input, and while I appreciate Glock's ubiquity, durability, and quality engineering, it just wasn't the CCW pistol for me.
Low Left is a trigger control issue and while you may find the Sig easier for you now. You need to fix the trigger control issue you are having. Its not the gun.
Pat
Not everyone shoots Glocks well, the grip angle is to sharp for many especially if they are used to 1911's, Beretta's or SIG's. You can train enough to be proficient but why fight a gun that doesnt fit you when there are so many reliable alternatives out there. I hate DA/SA pistols especially SIG's but put a DAK triggered SIG in my hand and I am deadly. Can do the same with a Beretta 92D but as I have carried both for duty weapons and put untold thousands of rounds through both they are intuitive to me. I can shoot Glock pistols extremely well but dont own a single one, I have to force the guns on to target and this makes it slower for me to recover back on to target. The Glock is a fine weapon but just because it works for most doesnt make it right for all. Now I just wish I could make my agency realise that one size fits all doesnt work with handguns.
TeamGrazzi
10-22-11, 03:45
I was at the range shooting a Glock 22 and M&P 40 at 15' - 25' 150 rds each. My groups with the Glock were about 3" larger and off to the 845 position, where the M&P almost all center mass and grouped tight. I was also tighter with 165gr vs 180gr .40. I also believe you can shoot better with one handgun over another so choosing the weapon that fits you best isn't a bad thing.
My glk 19 and 26 fit my hand very well, and I've never understood the other guy's complaints about the grips. I'm lucky here. I do shoot the 26 better than the 19 but can't explain why. Others have posted the same experience with the 26. Do you guys have a theory about why some of us shoot better with the smaller 26?
Alaskapopo
10-22-11, 05:16
Not everyone shoots Glocks well, the grip angle is to sharp for many especially if they are used to 1911's, Beretta's or SIG's. You can train enough to be proficient but why fight a gun that doesnt fit you when there are so many reliable alternatives out there. I hate DA/SA pistols especially SIG's but put a DAK triggered SIG in my hand and I am deadly. Can do the same with a Beretta 92D but as I have carried both for duty weapons and put untold thousands of rounds through both they are intuitive to me. I can shoot Glock pistols extremely well but dont own a single one, I have to force the guns on to target and this makes it slower for me to recover back on to target. The Glock is a fine weapon but just because it works for most doesnt make it right for all. Now I just wish I could make my agency realise that one size fits all doesnt work with handguns.
I agree that people should be able to carry what they want. But frankly a good shooter will be able to shoot any pistol well with only minor differences in performance from gun to gun. Extreme differnces show a failing in the shooter.
Pat
Hands are like fingerprints. Everyone is different. Everyone's grip will vary from weapon to weapon. Glock grips tend to be a little on the large side,so smaller hands tend to have some trouble finding a comfortable grip. Glock tried to make adjustments with the Gen4,with changable backstaps. To early to know if they are going to help. I agree you need to find a weapon that your comfortable with,after all it's your life your protecting.
That's fair, and I have asked the same question. I do not shoot any other gun this poorly, and I do not know the answer. With time and more practice would I have become better? Sure, but it was becoming frustrating and unenjoyable to shoot.
Like the OP - I have always had some issues with Glocks. Interestingly - I have switched to Glock as my primary training and self defense weapon. I simply have to work harder at shooting it well.
I, too, have shot many different handguns over the past 40 + years - and shot each one quite nicely - except for the Glock. Top on my list (and how many times have you heard this????:) is the 1911. But Brownings, Sigs, S&W (model 59s way back:), Smith M&P autos, etc., etc. Glock is always a battle.
For me - it was always the infamous "shoots left". After a zillion corrections, I finally settled on a slightly different trigger position for my finger - NOT the pad, but the first joint on the trigger. Once that was accomplished - problem solved.
So - I know both the frustration of the OP, as well as that great feeling when things start working as they should! I still find it interesting that on no other striker/polymer handgun do I shoot left - just a Glock (and multiple Glocks, btw.) Just a coming together of design characteristics of the weapon, combined with my peculiar characteristics (and my wife would say there are LOTS of peculiar characteristics in my case:)
Good shooting, OP!
john
I would hazard a guess that it might be the grip angle and not the fact it is striker fired.
Since we authorized POW G17's our supply of "spare" SIG P229DAK's is growing at an exponential rate. I have yet to see anyone shoot the SIG more accurately than the Glock under "qualification conditions".
Since we authorized POW G17's our supply of "spare" SIG P229DAK's is growing at an exponential rate. I have yet to see anyone shoot the SIG more accurately than the Glock under "qualification conditions".
I would take that challenge. I really like the 229DAK and shoot it as well as any pistol other than my customised Springfield Loaded. I started with my department carying a Beretta 92D so the SIG was a quantum leap foreward and as long as I shoot it like a DAO pistol the light smooth consistant trigger pull has shrunk my group sizes down to fist sized groups for a 50 rd qual. We do shoot more than most departments for the time being and I have about 2,000 rds through a pistol that I was issued in sept of last year. Considering that these are not take home weapons I dont think that is to bad. I do wish they would have let us choose between the 229 and the 226 however as I have big mits and the smaller grip of the 229 has cost me a couple of blood blisters during mag exchanges.
Bolt_Overide
10-22-11, 22:36
Im pretty much known as "the gun guy" amongst my family and friends. When someone decides they want to learn to shoot, buy their first gun, etc, usually Im the one tapped for info.
The one thing I tell everyone is, that it doesnt matter how well I like something, or someone else likes something, if its not comfortable in your hand, and you cant hit the broadside of a barn with it, its worthless. You need to find something youre comfortable and accurate with.
I would hazard a guess that it might be the grip angle and not the fact it is striker fired.
I don't seem to have the problem with the M&P.
Thanks to everyone for the input. I have shot about 200 rounds of .40 and 200 rounds on 9mm (through conversion barrel of course), and am really, really liking the gun. Next to a 1911 and maybe BHP it is the most 'comfortable' pistol I have held. I am down to 3" groups at 20 yards and getting better.
Alaskapopo, I appreciate your comments, though I disagree. I do not shoot any other pistol, not the 1911, not the BHP, not the M&P, not the SIG 226/220/229, not the HK USP, as poorly as I shot that Glock. In hindsight I wonder if something was amiss with the gun, as I bought it used and with after-market additions (sights, 3.5# connector, all done at the family table); at any rate, it is the one and only one gun I have shot that poorly.
My glk 19 and 26 fit my hand very well, and I've never understood the other guy's complaints about the grips. I'm lucky here. I do shoot the 26 better than the 19 but can't explain why. Others have posted the same experience with the 26. Do you guys have a theory about why some of us shoot better with the smaller 26?
Because of the shorter sight radius the amount of slop (daylight) in the sight picture.
Long Tom Coffin
10-23-11, 21:32
I'm even better with the H&K LEM trigger than I was with a stock M&P.
Different guns fit people differently.
True dat. I can't shoot DA/SA worth a crap. The striker fired pistols, on the other hand, are quite fine for me. It took me a little bit to find the glock trigger set up I like, but when I did, I had no problem shooting fist sized groups at 20 yards with it.
True dat. I can't shoot DA/SA worth a crap. The striker fired pistols, on the other hand, are quite fine for me. It took me a little bit to find the glock trigger set up I like, but when I did, I had no problem shooting fist sized groups at 20 yards with it.
Following the advice of an Army pal, I once expended a 50 round box of ammo firing DA only with the M9, one shot at a time. It takes a while but the improvement was almost immediate.
To the OP, you and I just went through an identical situation, though a bit reversed. I loved my FNX-9, truly, but never could shoot it well at all. Friends who had never shot a gun in their life were outshooting me with that particular handgun. I picked up a Glock 19 (Gen 3) on Saturday and shot the group below at 25 yards with it, after shooting about 40 rounds prior to this grouping (the one without the masking tape of course). 15 rounds, one was just outside of the picture area and the other, God only knows where. Also note the Federal 147gr. HST's (the bigger holes, lol) hit in a pretty consistent area as there were only four of those in that magazine; the rest was tula.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/aaron_c_2006/photo-23.jpg
These shots were with my FNX-9 at 10-15 yards, I forget exactly. They look okay-ish, except for the fact that I was aiming at the very top of the orange stick-on, just to the right of the word "Caldwell". Yeah, I consistently shot that low with it.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l13/aaron_c_2006/photo-25.jpg
Nephrology
10-24-11, 18:54
I am a long time Glock person but lately I have found my accuracy (especially past 15 yards or so) to be seriously lacking. Lots of low and left shots. I think that I have diagnosed the problem but I still am disappointed and am wondering if I should switch to something else. Not that I really am in a rush - I have so much money sunk into glocks and their accesssories that I would be loathe to do so without at least a couple more years, and maybe another gun purchased and run for comparison.
Any tips/thoughts?
Nephrology, any ideas as to why your accuracy would be suffering lately if it hasn't been, all along?
Nephrology
10-24-11, 19:05
Nephrology, any ideas as to why your accuracy would be suffering lately if it hasn't been, all along?
Not entirely sure to be honest. I definitely do not shoot as much these days as once in the past, which is certainly part of it but I think I have simply been doing more long range shooting and noticed in comparison to other pistols I have shot my groups aren't as tight.
Example: early this month the local IDPA shoot was cancelled when I rolled up (rained out) so I went to the indoor range and shot a bit with some people from the group. Tried out someone's STI 1911 in 9mm - grouped 1-2" at almost 10 yards. No problem. My glock 17 was more like 4-5 and to the left at the same distance.
It's hard to group together collectively and objectively when I think back on the aggregate but I have been primarily a glock shooter for the past 2-3 years. Maybe it is just a bias but sometimes I do feel as if I would shoot better with something SAO. Or, if it is just a cognitive trick, maybe I just need a few good days at the range to remind myself that I can in fact shoot glocks just fine. Hard to tell.
Crow Hunter
10-24-11, 19:11
I am a long time Glock person but lately I have found my accuracy (especially past 15 yards or so) to be seriously lacking. Lots of low and left shots. I think that I have diagnosed the problem but I still am disappointed and am wondering if I should switch to something else. Not that I really am in a rush - I have so much money sunk into glocks and their accesssories that I would be loathe to do so without at least a couple more years, and maybe another gun purchased and run for comparison.
Any tips/thoughts?
I find that I will usually shoot really good with a new gun (or someone elses) but that over time I am more consistent with the Glock. I shoot some one hole groups at 15 yards with my brothers Sig 226, but then after a while I will start putting shots all over the paper.
I don't always shoot as good with my 19 but my groups are always in the same place and about the same size.
I did have a problem when after taking a shooting class and I changed my normal grip to a high thumbs which was "right" according to the "instructor". I started shooting BAD left. Like 5 or 6 inches at times. Once I switched back to my old thumb over thumb, poof. Now more left. I get alot of trigger finger on the trigger (like a revolver) and I push to the left. With the high thumbs grip, I was losing that counter balance to my trigger finger push.
Have you changed your grip lately?
Nephrology
10-24-11, 19:16
I find that I will usually shoot really good with a new gun (or someone elses) but that over time I am more consistent with the Glock. I shoot some one hole groups at 15 yards with my brothers Sig 226, but then after a while I will start putting shots all over the paper.
I don't always shoot as good with my 19 but my groups are always in the same place and about the same size.
I did have a problem when after taking a shooting class and I changed my normal grip to a high thumbs which was "right" according to the "instructor". I started shooting BAD left. Like 5 or 6 inches at times. Once I switched back to my old thumb over thumb, poof. Now more left. I get alot of trigger finger on the trigger (like a revolver) and I push to the left. With the high thumbs grip, I was losing that counter balance to my trigger finger push.
Have you changed your grip lately?
Yeah I have been opting for the very high/aggressive thumbs forward grip. Maybe I should do some experimentation. I have read/seen elsewhere that sometimes too much of a vice grip on glocks tends to result in the shots being pulled left, too. It's also worth noting that I installed these sights myself so they might need a tap or two to the right... either way I am reasonably certain that I can correct it with a little practice.
Crow Hunter
10-24-11, 19:35
Yeah I have been opting for the very high/aggressive thumbs forward grip. Maybe I should do some experimentation. I have read/seen elsewhere that sometimes too much of a vice grip on glocks tends to result in the shots being pulled left, too. It's also worth noting that I installed these sights myself so they might need a tap or two to the right... either way I am reasonably certain that I can correct it with a little practice.
Try bringing your dominant thumb down and see what happens. It made an extreme improvement for me.
Maybe you have the same issue I have.
I have been shooting Glocks since 1997, and I have tried just about everything over the years and I keep coming back to them for the consistency/repeatability. (I tried, Sig P220, Sig 228, Sig 229, Beretta 92F, HK USP 40, Browning HP, 1911, S&W 409, Walther P5, Walther PPK, M&P compact, there may have been others...)
I would always start out shooting them "better" than the Glock at slow fire precision targets.
But then I would put a target at 7-10 yards and draw/fire as quickly as I could get a flash sight picture and press the trigger. Then everything would fall apart. Particularly if I had some stress from competition from my brother or others.
Even though I might do better on a mag or two with a new gun (or someone elses), I ALWAYS do better on average, over a 50 round string with the Glock, than I do with anything else.
This didn't work for me with the M&P 9c though.... I had trouble keeping that one on a sheet of notebook paper, even slow fire.
Nephrology
10-24-11, 21:02
Try bringing your dominant thumb down and see what happens. It made an extreme improvement for me.
Maybe you have the same issue I have.
I have been shooting Glocks since 1997, and I have tried just about everything over the years and I keep coming back to them for the consistency/repeatability. (I tried, Sig P220, Sig 228, Sig 229, Beretta 92F, HK USP 40, Browning HP, 1911, S&W 409, Walther P5, Walther PPK, M&P compact, there may have been others...)
I would always start out shooting them "better" than the Glock at slow fire precision targets.
But then I would put a target at 7-10 yards and draw/fire as quickly as I could get a flash sight picture and press the trigger. Then everything would fall apart. Particularly if I had some stress from competition from my brother or others.
Even though I might do better on a mag or two with a new gun (or someone elses), I ALWAYS do better on average, over a 50 round string with the Glock, than I do with anything else.
This didn't work for me with the M&P 9c though.... I had trouble keeping that one on a sheet of notebook paper, even slow fire.
Sounds very familiar. Slow fire I am always better with guns with SA triggers but I do just fine in IDPA with glocks. Maybe I will take your advice. Either way my glocks arent going anywhere. I might buy a CZ one day just to see what I think of them .... but i'll never sell my glocks.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.