View Full Version : LMT MWS with 18in SS Barrel
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-16-11, 17:58
I thought there was a thread about the MWS here in the semi-auto Precision forum, but I didn't see one since May. Thought I'd post here since it is about accuracy, not so much as the rifle?
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/LMT%20MWS%20targets/LMT-MWS-18SS0001.jpg
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/LMT%20MWS%20targets/LMT-MWS-18SS-PRVI1680001.jpg
Got my rifle back a month or so ago, haven't had a chance to shot it till today. Just made sure I was on paper and shot these groups to see if POI changed.
1Cm squares.
I'd say it is a 3cm rifle. ;)
LMT MWS with 18in SS barrel and 168 FGMM and PRVI ammo. Geissele Match trigger, Premier 3-15 MIL-Dot, PRS Stock and Slashes Heavy Buffer (like solid SS steel).
I think this is going to work. Kudos to LMT on working with me on my first SS barrel which had some machining marks just past the throat. This barrel is a thing of beauty. I think the LMTs are overgassed and the heavy, solid buffer from slash works just fine. Probably 120 rounds fired and no issues at all. I think the heavy buffer makes it just that bit more comfortable and managable to shoot.
These are the best groups I shot with both ammos. In more groups, the FGMM is more consistent than the PRVI. I also ran some PMC Bronze, that I mistakenly thought was PRVI. It is not as accurate as the PRVI, with groups opening up about at 1.5x.
Still getting used to the 308AR. Shot my hopped up JP 556 upper after this and it felt like a BB gun. Just learning to be the MWS master and not its bitch. I like it because it exposes flaws in my fundamentals that can be over looked and masked when shooting lighter recoiling guns.
Just joined a range that goes to 1000 yards with sillhoutte targets. Ummmm, fun to be had.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-18-11, 14:38
M4C was down the day I scanned the targets, so I wanted to post them somewhere ;)
Not my home range, my shooting buddy asked 100y or 100m and I said meters, so that's what I assumed, though I didn't laz it. I'm all MIL?MIL on my scopes, so I'm trying to go metric for everything.
I've had it out about 4 times shooting prone for a total of about 300 or so shots. This was the first time that I felt like I was really controlling the rifle thru recoil and thus probably had a better hold on the rifle. I'm still experimenting with high high up (elevated) I want the rifle and how that affects my head position in relation to my tactical up-armouring in the midesection ;) . I'm getting about 12 inches of movement during recoil and I think I can get that down a bit more with better position and maxing out the capabilites of the Atlas V8.
It really was fun shooting the 556 JP (adj gas/LMOS Carrier system) after the MWS. The MWS may be worth it just in the better fundamentals it demands in relation to the AR15 platform.
Just an orientation and work day away from membership at my new range. Hopefully I'll have cell coverage out there and I can have my 'Home office" in my Tahoe for a day and my boss won't know the difference. ;)
LMT MWS- making spotters for steel unneeded.
Since I just got back from the range I guess it wouldnt hurt to post a quick RR on my MWS. Sorry for the low quality pics, they are from my iphone.
Rifle: MWS 16" chrome line barrel, Leupold Mark 4 2.5-8x 36mm Mil Dot, and Harris Bipod.
Shooting was done from the prone supported only by the bipod
Temperature:typical Texas temps of high 90s.
Ammo: Federal SMK 168gr
Range: 100 yards
Rounds per shot group: 10
The first group I shot 5 and took a 30 second pause, then shot 5 more.
The second group I shot all 10 without a pause.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x22/OTO27_photos/09-19-2011.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x22/OTO27_photos/IMG_0091.jpg
I dont have any fancy software to measure but a handy ruler measured the maximum spread of the first group at exactly 1"
The second shot group measured just a hair under 1.25"
These were not "cherry picked groups" they are an example of how I did today. I have done better, I have also done worse.
Thanks a bunch for plotting these for me, it’s interesting though that my ruler measured 1” spread for the first group but your software has them at .708”. I am very happy with those results.
These are definitely legit! There were some very reputable fellow Dallas PD officers next to me that witnessed 10 rounds being fired at each target and hitting. I shoot my MWS at this range at least once a week so it should be no surprised that odds are I have had better groups than these and also worse.
What I meant by the pause was just that, a pause, there was a large gust of wind, which kicked up a lot of dirt so I had to wait till it passed. We have had extreme drought here for a while so it was very dusty and dry. I figured it would be worth mentioning as I normally fire the groups without any pause and this may have lead to slightly better grouping due to the barrel cooling off a bit.
Not sure what you mean by the first group“not looking legit” Anyways the bottom right hole was the cold bore shot, the rest fell mostly at the 7 o clock of the red and the I threw the last shot to the bottom left.
The second looks a bit more "legit" as it has a more traditional spread, maybe because the bore was already warmed up a bit from the first 10 shot group.
ETA: keep in mind you are looking at my target from an Iphone pic, even with the nake eye I could only count 8 holes on my first group, but believe me 10 rounds were fired, the mag was loaded with 10 only and shot till it was out.
By the way the second pic is back wards, if you flip it you can tell that both targets POIs are roughly the same. Not sure if this is enough evidence for you that they are legit. Something tells me the only thing I can do to convince you is draging you out to my range.
I really do like your skepticism, I take that as a complement.
Firstly, what exactly do you mean by taking a "pause" when shooting these groups...moreover, what exactly is it trying to convey about either the rifle, the shooter, or the ammo.
Secondly, I happen to have some fancy software and went ahead a measured your groups for you...either your completely posting phony groups, or your 16" CL barrel and shooting abilities on a .308 gas gun are literally world record setting and unlike anything that I have seen or even thought possible.
Finally your last statement quoted below left me no choice in believing that those results are purely fabricated and false. It was near impossible to believe those results if they were your all time best groups, but to hear that they aren't and you have done better in your words defies logic and reason.
"These were not "cherry picked groups" they are an example of how I did today. I have done better, I have also done worse."
Not only are the group sizes an absolute red flag, the bullet placement within them doesn't even come close to looking legit. On your first target , you shot 4rds that had distinct bullet holes...then somehow you managed to get the other 6 rds. to form one large ragged hole roughly double the diameter of a .308. Your second target is a little better with 5 distinct bullet holes but with a bit larger ragged hole where the other 5 rds hit.
Lastly, I'm not sure anyone has more confidence and belief in the truly amazing accuracy capable from this one piece chassis, and Rock barrel system that is the MWS...and as much as I truly do want to believe those groups, they raise every red flag as high as it will go in my book. I have shot way to many groups to buy the results above.
Another red flag: The measurements you came up with are nowhere near his claimed measurements of 1" and 1.25". You might want to consider the possibility that the target is an 8" Shoot-N-C.
Belmont31R
09-21-11, 01:29
I only calculated the outside shots and identifiable shots. 6 for the first target and 7 for the 2nd. This using the mentioned 8" outside edge to edge diameter of the target.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/fed9cd6c.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/ee93639b.jpg
I ain't gonna say its bunk but just that it would be extremely good shooting with a CL MWS. I think 1.5-2.25 would be more realistic based on the many MWS user reports and of course varied shooters. Below that is possible just you don't see too many with 10 shot groups below 1.5 MOA, and certainly a rarity below 1 MOA.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-21-11, 05:10
Oto, are those handloads? If so, you need to share!
KG_mauserman
09-21-11, 11:43
My experience has been that my MWS will hold MOA with certain hand loads. 175 SMK with 44.7 grains of Varget. While every once and a while I do a little better than MOA, 7/8" or so, it's not consistant. It will also swing the other way from time to time and go out to 1 1/2". I'm sure a lot of the variance has to do with me as a shooter. And yes I'm talking about ten shot groups and the 16" CL barrel.
With mil surplus ammo it's not even close to that shooting groups around 3" plus.
While the OTO's groups may be cherry picked I think they are totally plausable with the right shooter and ammo.
As a messure of practicle accuracy I was able to make 3 out of 5 hits on golfballs at 140 yards in a sniper match last weekend with my MWS.
I thought about getting a SS barrel for mine but with the accuracy I've been getting the only reason I can see for getting one would be to squeeze out a bit more velocity.
My biggest mistake with the MWS was thinking of it as a run and gun type of rifle. Once I got that out of my head and put a bipod and powerful optic on it it really began to shine.
There are only two MOS's in the ARMY
11B and 11 wanna B
liquidsniper
09-21-11, 11:53
Those groups are def doable with the 16 Cl barrel.
10 Shot group using 175 GR FGMM and this was a group when I first got the gun shot from a bench using a grip pod bipod after getting sighted in. I am trying to make it out in the near future to dial in some 175 gr SMK handloads. Optic used is a Ta55-A 5.5x ACOG. ETA: The two holes to the right on my target are not mine, I had a friend with me that day who was shooting all around my target.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa161/liquidsniper420/100_3304.jpg
The gun
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa161/liquidsniper420/100_3301.jpg
Oto, are those handloads? If so, you need to share!
No sir, they are plane old Federal SMK's 168
OTO27,
It sounds like your 1" measurements were to the outside edges. The proper way is measure is from center to center. Nice shooting.
OTO27,
It sounds like your 1" measurements were to the outside edges. The proper way is measure is from center to center. Nice shooting.
No sir my measurements were done from center to center. Not sure if the settings you are using for the software are correct.
No sir my measurements were done from center to center. Not sure if the settings you are using for the software are correct.
They were guessing at the width of the bull, which is a required input in the software. Maybe it's 7" instead of 8" or some such.
Looking at the second target I estimate the outside size as approximately 5 full .308 diameters. So it's: 0.308 x (5-1) = 1.232" for est. center to center.
My Mk 1 eyeball runs pretty close to your ruler.
Been running my mws alot lately getting ready for an upcoming match.
All of these groups are with the 16" SS barrel and a shooter in need of more practice. Assume shooter error in any of these groups, especially the fliers as I am still working with this rifle.
100yd 175smk load:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100yd175smk.jpg
100yd 178 amax load. For some reason these shoot just a hair right of my 175 load.
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/178amax100yd10rd.jpg
600yd group, only five shots but I only took so much ammo for the day:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/178amax650ydsinfo.jpg
Video from today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuVYa31fdno
Target shot in the video. Far right shot is from a sighter round prior to the video.
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/178amax650yds.jpg
I held back my comments when I first saw those results on the Hide hoping that you would post them up over here.
That's outstanding shooting sir! I have officially hit defcon 5 on my MWS want meter and within 30days I should have it.
Damn that's great stuff from a straight world beating rifle!
My 16 inch CL MWS is also shooting 1 inch , 5 shot groups. On Occasion, it will hold a half inch. But we are shooting Marks hand-loads rolled to concentric perfection with Lapua Brass and 168 / 175 SMK's.
That may be my favorite gun. Buying a PRS stock for 18 SPR, if I really like it, I might get one for my LMT MWS.
Last week, we plinked steel at 600 yards at will.
Dirtyboy333
10-20-11, 18:42
M1A/OTO27:
First of all, nice shooting!!! I like Trident am a few weeks away from buying a MWS (maybe an OBR) and in quite a few threads i have seen people mention that the 16" CL barrel is overgassed and has heavy recoil when compared to other semi 308's. So, when either of you two upgraded to the SS barrels did you notice any difference with the longer gas system? I'm planning to get the 18" SS.
Also, would you guys put these SS barreled MWS's in the same tier accuracy wise as the OBR?
M1A/OTO27:
First of all, nice shooting!!! I like Trident am a few weeks away from buying a MWS (maybe an OBR) and in quite a few threads i have seen people mention that the 16" CL barrel is overgassed and has heavy recoil when compared to other semi 308's. So, when either of you two upgraded to the SS barrels did you notice any difference with the longer gas system? I'm planning to get the 18" SS.
Also, would you guys put these SS barreled MWS's in the same tier accuracy wise as the OBR?
First off, I have never fired an OBR for accuracy but I feel the MWS will hold it's own for sure. I shot a precision rifle match this weekend and the MWS was easily competitive with the bolt guns present. The reason I missed shots was due to the shooter error, not the amount of accuracy from the rifle.
The recoil is something I am not a good judge of at all. To me, the recoil is like a light punch, nothing that will be an issue. I have had the 20" SS barrel and now I am back to the 16" SS and I really can't tell a difference in recoil. Recoil is not something I think about anymore and don't even really register it after the shot.
M1A/OTO27:
First of all, nice shooting!!! I like Trident am a few weeks away from buying a MWS (maybe an OBR) and in quite a few threads i have seen people mention that the 16" CL barrel is overgassed and has heavy recoil when compared to other semi 308's. So, when either of you two upgraded to the SS barrels did you notice any difference with the longer gas system? I'm planning to get the 18" SS.
Also, would you guys put these SS barreled MWS's in the same tier accuracy wise as the OBR?
Dirty...apparently you didn't get the memo that I'm officially buying my MWS tomorrow:D:dance3:
Ive only heard one person that I can remember ever saying that the MWS w/ 16" CL is overgassed and has heavy recoil compared to others in it's class...however I have heard that one person stat that numerous times.
Anybody can learn how to manage the recoil of firearms with practice, but currently it's in vogue to have a really soft recoiling rifle even at the expense of reliability. I'll pass on either spending extra for a softer recoiling rifle or buying various widgets in which to reduce the recoil by a small amount. Ultimately I'm only concerned with 1.) Reliability, and 2.) accuracy/precision.
Personally I think it's a smart move to buy the base model MWS w. the 16" CL and then buy a 16" 5R SST or 18" 5R SS separately. When the 16" CL shoots sub moa with match ammo and a shooter present, why put the added miles on a Rock 5R SS barrel when quite often one will find themselves not needing a uber precise SS barrel. Use your 16" CL to blast and train with, and then break out the fine china when trying to push yourself and the envelope of your rifle.
These rifles are currently backordered big time. You have both the MoD/Brits and the U.S. civy market buying them in quantities that even surpassed LMT's wildest expectations.
Dirtyboy333
10-20-11, 19:36
Ok...thanks for the reply M1A. I'm just going to put the MWS on layaway tomorrow instead of waiting 2 more weeks to pay in full because i'm so sick of literally losing sleep over this decision (MWS vs. OBR). I'm working 6 12 hour shifts a week and all my free time has been spent researching these two rifles to the point of only getting 4 hours of sleep a night!!! :help::lazy2: If i put $1500 down tomorrow I'll be committed to the MWS and wont need to research anymore.
About the recoil: I've never shot a 308 before let alone a semi 308. Most of my shooting has been 556 and 40 S&W. I've shot a few bolt guns in 30 06, 7mm 08, .222, and most recently my 7.62x54 Mosin. The Mosin has a metal buttplate and i dont have a problem with the recoil but i would prefer my MWS to shoot a bit softer than that. Being a semi, i would hope it would. I've just read alot on the smoothness of the Scar and OBR and mostly opposite on the MWS. The MWS and SIG 551 have been my dream rifles for a while now and i'm very excited to finally touch one.
I have a massively overgassed AR 15 that i have tamed with buffer/spring combos so i'm sure i can do the same to the LMT if need be. Im probably blowing this whole issue way outta proportion anyway. I have a tendency to do that :sarcastic:
Dirtyboy333
10-20-11, 19:40
Dirty...apparently you didn't get the memo that I'm officially buying my MWS tomorrow:D:dance3:
Ive only heard one person that I can remember ever saying that the MWS w/ 16" CL is overgassed and has heavy recoil compared to others in it's class...however I have heard that one person stat that numerous times.
Anybody can learn how to manage the recoil of firearms with practice, but currently it's in vogue to have a really soft recoiling rifle even at the expense of reliability. I'll pass on either spending extra for a softer recoiling rifle or buying various widgets in which to reduce the recoil by a small amount. Ultimately I'm only concerned with 1.) Reliability, and 2.) accuracy/precision.
Personally I think it's a smart move to buy the base model MWS w. the 16" CL and then buy a 16" 5R SST or 18" 5R SS separately. When the 16" CL shoots sub moa with match ammo and a shooter present, why put the added miles on a Rock 5R SS barrel when quite often one will find themselves not needing a uber precise SS barrel. Use your 16" CL to blast and train with, and then break out the fine china when trying to push yourself and the envelope of your rifle.
These rifles are currently backordered big time. You have both the MoD/Brits and the U.S. civy market buying them in quantities that even surpassed LMT's wildest expectations.
Congrats Trident!!! I was typing my last message when you posted. Actually, I am going to buy the standard 16" CL and then add (if needed) an 18" or 20" SS.
Cant wait to see your new rig.
ETA: Completely separate issue but since i have your attention.....What does Geissele (spl?) use for their trigger grease in the little vial??? I want to get a bunch of that shit!
Dirtyboy333
10-20-11, 19:47
When you say these rifles are backordered does that mean i will have to wait to get one? Ive called a few places that ive found on the net and they said they had them. Hopefully they didnt just mean "we can get them".
Dirtyboy,
The MWS recoils way less than a mosin. My friend has one and after 10 rounds or so, the enjoyment is gone.
I have spent several range trips shooting only the mws with no problem. You might have seen in some of my post's I have struggled in the past getting used to the .308 AR, but I am very pleased with the results I am getting now that I have my fundamentals worked out.
I don't know what kind of accuracy requirement you are looking for, but if you are looking for a solid 1moa or slightly sub moa shooter the mws will do that with ease. Like I said above, I bought mine as a precision rifle to shoot in competitions competing against bolt guns for the most part. In the couple of comps I have entered the mws has never let me down when I make the shot count. From my own experience, I am confident it is more the indian than the arrow.
Apricotshot
10-20-11, 20:53
I'm selling my MWS........But for no reason other than I want something else. I've always been very pleased with accuracy.
Congrats Trident!!! I was typing my last message when you posted. Actually, I am going to buy the standard 16" CL and then add (if needed) an 18" or 20" SS.
Cant wait to see your new rig.
ETA: Completely separate issue but since i have your attention.....What does Geissele (spl?) use for their trigger grease in the little vial??? I want to get a bunch of that shit!
Thanks, I'll send your the rated x pics first brother:p I too eagerly await to see yours as well.
In regards to GA grease, the original red colored grease from GA was Mobil aviation grease(shc 100..mobil 28?)
The newest yellow colored grease is Shell Aeroshell 6, and it's awesome stuff for sure.
http://i53.tinypic.com/14yad6t.jpg
bnanaphone
10-20-11, 21:54
I have an FSC30 on my MWS and would compare the recoil to shooting light target loads out of my SBE II. Easy to run 100 rounds in a day without much discomfort.
I have only used the CL barrel and get just under MOA with FGMM 168 at 100, have not shot for groups beyond that. I am quite satisfied with the accuracy, but m1ajunkie has me strongly considering the 16" SS barrel. Too many options and not enough time for me to shoot.
Dirtyboy333
10-21-11, 01:31
Dirtyboy,
The MWS recoils way less than a mosin. My friend has one and after 10 rounds or so, the enjoyment is gone.
I have spent several range trips shooting only the mws with no problem. You might have seen in some of my post's I have struggled in the past getting used to the .308 AR, but I am very pleased with the results I am getting now that I have my fundamentals worked out.
I don't know what kind of accuracy requirement you are looking for, but if you are looking for a solid 1moa or slightly sub moa shooter the mws will do that with ease. Like I said above, I bought mine as a precision rifle to shoot in competitions competing against bolt guns for the most part. In the couple of comps I have entered the mws has never let me down when I make the shot count. From my own experience, I am confident it is more the indian than the arrow.
I would be more than pleased and borderline ecstatic with those accuracy results. Yes, i have seen your posts where you were having a little trouble and its builds my confidence to see that you were able to overcome it. It seems to me (from your posts) like your starting to shoot this thing very well and are starting to tap its potential. I cant wait to do the same.
Trident, that yellow Shell is what i'm talking about....Thanks!!!
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