View Full Version : .300 Blackout on deer
High Tower
09-17-11, 14:51
Sorry guys - no pictures.
Our gunsmith just took two does with his .300 Blackout this past Thursday during the early doe season.
He was using the 110 grain Hornady .300 Whisper load and he said they both dropped on the spot. This is a barrel that I gave him that was from Model 1 Sales and was the old .300 Fireball. He bought a Pacific T&D reamer and made everything right. Now its all he will hunt with.
I cannot wait to get out with mine during the regular deer season!
SpaceWrangler
09-17-11, 16:53
At what distance?
High Tower
09-20-11, 10:12
One was at 50 yards from a stand. The second was at 75 from the ground.
With all due respect, dropping does at 50 and 75 yards doesn't prove a whole lot. Where did he hit them?
other than subsonic/suppressed options what does this cartridge offer over 6.8 for hunting medium game?
6.8 is better for longer range hunting. Some advantages of 300 BLK:
Cheaper reloading (brass about 1/2 the price).
Much factory practice ammo (starting in November).
30 round capacity - not useful for hunting, but great for other uses.
Uses normal magazines.
Uses normal bolt.
Works with 30 caliber bullets that are so common.
Less muzzle blast due to higher efficiency.
As much power from short SBRs, and almost as much from long barrels.
Longer barrel life.
With all due respect, dropping does at 50 and 75 yards doesn't prove a whole lot.
Proves that it'll kill deer, in addition to being a useful cartridge for other uses.
That being said, and with all due respect, it didn't sound like he set out to "prove" anything with this post. Seemed an anecdotal discussion on a discussion forum.
I find it interesting that some people hunt deer with handguns, some hunt bear with arrows, and when my non-gun friend wanted his first hunting rifle, his father told him he needed a 7mm Magnum.
300 AAC BLACKOUT has as much energy at 300 yards as a 357 Magnum revolver does at the muzzle. So, if you would shoot a deer with a 357 from up close, then you can shoot one with 300 AAC BLACKOUT at 300 yards.
I have not hunting much at all, but my longest shot was 180 yards. This chart shows that when you use longer-range weapons, you limit versatility.
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/999/300blkslide.jpg
6.8 is better for longer range hunting. Some advantages of 300 BLK:
Cheaper reloading (brass about 1/2 the price).
Much factory practice ammo (starting in November).
30 round capacity - not useful for hunting, but great for other uses.
Uses normal magazines.
Uses normal bolt.
Works with 30 caliber bullets that are so common.
Less muzzle blast due to higher efficiency.
As much power from short SBRs, and almost as much from long barrels.
Longer barrel life.
i do not reload. what will be the cost of 300BLK factory practice ammo? lack of practice ammo for my 6.8 leads to my not shooting it as much as i would like. also, can you overlay 6.8 in your versatility chart along with the listed ammo?
I find it intresting that Remington can make cheap 300 Blackout but not 6.8!
I find it intresting that Remington can make cheap 300 Blackout but not 6.8!
6.8 has more brass in the shell so it can never be as cheap. Also the 300 BLK is planned to sell on volume.
i do not reload. what will be the cost of 300BLK factory practice ammo? lack of practice ammo for my 6.8 leads to my not shooting it as much as i would like. also, can you overlay 6.8 in your versatility chart along with the listed ammo?
$12.99 MSRP.
No, I can't add 6.8 to the chart. I did not make the chart.
300 AAC BLACKOUT has as much energy at 300 yards as a 357 Magnum revolver does at the muzzle. So, if you would shoot a deer with a 357 from up close, then you can shoot one with 300 AAC BLACKOUT at 300 yards.
That may be true, but energy has never killed anybody.
A more fair comparison may be the maximum performance range, where the projectile will expand properly, nominally 1900 fps for many rifle bullets.
What is the muzzle velocity and min expansion velocity for a popular 300blk projo like the 125 vmax?
That is exactly true - and that is why the 300 AAC BLACKOUT 125 grain AccuTip ammo does not use the same bullet from the 30 RAR 125 grain AccuTip.
"Minimum Expansion Velocity" always struck me as a meaningless metric as there is no way to say what "minimum" means. I found that when working with bullet companies, I had to run the bullet a few hundred fps faster than their minimum to attain what I considered my minimum.
So rather than tell them to make it expand down to 1600 fps, I said it must penetrate 12-18 inches of 10% gel at 1950-2000 fps - which is at a short range for a 7.5 inch barrel, but about 100 yards for a 16 inch barrel. The result is controlled penetration even at lower velocities.
This should give great medium-range hunting results.
Proves that it'll kill deer, in addition to being a useful cartridge for other uses.
That being said, and with all due respect, it didn't sound like he set out to "prove" anything with this post. Seemed an anecdotal discussion on a discussion forum.
A .22wmr will drop a doe at those distances, if shot in the head, which is why I asked for more information to further the discussion. I am really anxious to hear more about the .300BLK and it's efficiency on animals, both thin- and thick-skinned. I'm seriously considering one for hog hunting.
High Tower
09-21-11, 00:34
The shots were to the vitals - lung and heart.
I started this thread because when the round first came out, I spoke with a few folk who doubted it would work on deer. I would assume that there are people who read these threads that would ask the same question. So I give example of 2 deer taken by the .300 BLK in a very ethical, humane way.
And yes, a .22 may be capable of the same, but that just isn't legal in most states. As for the range, that's a fairly average shot for around here.
I hunt in Arizona around areas that do not require much range, in fact an AR-15 style carbine has many advantages with it's weight and speed.
Dropping at 50-75 yards with a .30 cal? that's pretty nice. Not gonna shun.
Out of a 16" barrel with 123 gr bullets the .300 BLK basically replicates the 7.62x39 but with popular American .308" bullets. So anything the 7.62x39 can do in the field, the .300 BLK can do with better 110-125 gr bullets. Won't have more range or energy but probably better accuracy and terminal performance.
I'm looking at the chart and the range comparison is obvious, but I'm not sure exactly how versatility is defined. Maybe, if it's a complicated answer, you could post the information that went with the chart.
This chart shows that when you use longer-range weapons, you limit versatility.http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/999/300blkslide.jpg
Belmont31R
09-21-11, 02:06
I think this round fits the brush gun type description, and while its no LR elk smacker can be loaded to a variety of different purposes.
I once shot a 100LB doe at about 40 yards with a 30-06 ballistic tip, and the exit wound was huge. I don't think you need all that much bullet or velocity in the types of ranges this round was designed for. I certainly don't think exit wound blow outs are 100% needed to put a deer down. The main thing with humane kills is shot placement. I would certainly feel comfortable hunting with a 243 in inside 300 yards even with the biggest deer our country has to offer, and I would do 223 with our dog size deer down here.
Of course bullet selection is also important but being the caliber this round is you really can't imagine a more diverse selection.
Is that chart realistic to show the .300 BLK being effective to 300 yds? Isn't there quite a bit of bullet drop pass 200 yds with that low BC bullet and low velocity?
Seems kind of subjective SWAG what with the undefined "versatility".
Is 0.320 considered a low BC? I am just asking - not sure what the answer is - but it is higher than a 69 grain 224 MatchKing.
Sorry guys - no pictures.
Our gunsmith just took two does with his .300 Blackout this past Thursday during the early doe season.
He was using the 110 grain Hornady .300 Whisper load and he said they both dropped on the spot. This is a barrel that I gave him that was from Model 1 Sales and was the old .300 Fireball. He bought a Pacific T&D reamer and made everything right. Now its all he will hunt with.
I cannot wait to get out with mine during the regular deer season!
What State was that in and how large were the does?
The shots were to the vitals - lung and heart.
And yes, a .22 may be capable of the same, but that just isn't legal in most states. As for the range, that's a fairly average shot for around here.
thanks for the add'l info. My point about the .22wmr obviously didn't make its mark. I only used it to make the point that merely killing animals at short range does not speak enough to its effectiveness. Knowing that the shots were placed in the vital area says quite a bit more, so again, thanks.
I'm looking at the chart and the range comparison is obvious, but I'm not sure exactly how versatility is defined. Maybe, if it's a complicated answer, you could post the information that went with the chart.
I'd like to know that as well.
Very interested in this caliber, considering picking up a 5.56 rifle to convert to 300BLK as soon as cost/availability are no longer issues.
...which is why I asked for more information to further the discussion.
Fair enough. With all due respect, a tip I've found useful on internet gun forums, is to try not to be so abrasive when genuinely seeking more information.
I'm sure by now, you're getting my point. Least I would hope.
Versatility is the number of jobs it can do, number of rolls it can fulfill, and the number of other weapons it can replace.
For example, it can replace the MP5-SD as a quiet suppressed platform, but unlike the MP5-SD, it can also shoot out to 300 meters and do the role that the Mk18 is supposed to do. And the Mk18 cannot be quiet suppressed - hence it is more versatile than either. It can also handle the role that is sometimes filled by a subsonic 308 bolt action rifle.
I get it a little more now. I'm interested in reading up on this topic, so how can I access the source that used the chart?
Is 0.320 considered a low BC? I am just asking - not sure what the answer is - but it is higher than a 69 grain 224 MatchKing.
Sierra MK 69 gr .224" has a BC of .305 between 2800 and 2200 fps, so it is slightly less but also going 2,700 fps compared to 2,300 fps for the the 123 gr .300 BLK.
Compared to similar construction .308" bullets of 150-180 gr it is on the low end for BC. And it is low velocity compared to similar BC .224" bullets.
The reason I am questioning the effective range of 300 yds is that no other .308" - .311" bullet launched at 2,300 fps is considered effective at 300 yd due to bullet drop and the greratly reduced velocity at that range. Maybe the .330 BLK is different, but I can't find terminal performance information for a 123 gr at 2,300 fps out to 300 yds.
For the 69 gr .224" bullet launched at 2,700 fp, it will have velocity at 100 yds of 2,400 fps, at 200 yds will be 2,150 fps, and at 3000 yds it will be 1,886 fps. Bullet drop is about 27" at 300 yds.
From what I can calculate, the .300 BLK 123 gr would have a muzzle velocity of about 2,300 fps, 2,050 fps at 100 yds, 1,800 fps at 200 yds and 1,600 fps at 300 yds. It appears bullet drop is about 38" at 300 yds.
In an earlier post you said:
So rather than tell them to make it expand down to 1600 fps, I said it must penetrate 12-18 inches of 10% gel at 1950-2000 fps - which is at a short range for a 7.5 inch barrel, but about 100 yards for a 16 inch barrel. The result is controlled penetration even at lower velocities.
So at 300 yds we have 38" drop, 1,600 fps and what appears to be either below or at the lower edge of performance range of the bullet. Most .308" bullets are not going to perform well at 1,600 fps but if this is a custom designed bullet for the .300 LK, what is the expansion and penetration at 1,600 fps?
Yes, it is a custom bullet, so what we know about 308 bullets at that velocity does not apply.
Drop at 300 yards is 15 inches from a 200 yard zero.
I'm looking at the chart and the range comparison is obvious, but I'm not sure exactly how versatility is defined. Maybe, if it's a complicated answer, you could post the information that went with the chart.
Agreed. While I get the gist of what the chart is saying, I think there's some handwaving going on over what "versatility" really means.
Looking at that chart, would you let yourself get shot with XM2010 as long as it was closer than 300 meters? Viewgraphs are great for conveying ideas quickly, but they suck at technical details.
If you limit yourself to a certain range, what's more "versatile"? I would suggest that it includes:
- the ability to be suppressed (subsonic a bonus)
- good terminal energy for a given amount of recoil
- large selection of projo's to meet mission needs (e.g. controlled expansion, AP, varmint rounds, frangibles, and so on)
Would you let yourself get shot with 300 AAC BLACKOUT as long as it was over 300 meters?
You would not pick an XM2010 for a close range role because it is longer/heavier than needed and has lower capacity and slower firing.
Yes, it is a custom bullet, so what we know about 308 bullets at that velocity does not apply.
Drop at 300 yards is 15 inches from a 200 yard zero.
Thanks. With a 200 yd zero what is the raise at 100 yds? What is the terminal performance at 1,600 fps?
If all this performance is dependent on custom designed bullets (not normal .308") then it sounds like there won't be much selection and handloaders may be left with subpar components. Supposedly one of the advantages of the .300 BLK over the 7.62x39 is the broader selection and availability of .308" bullets over .311". But if we need special .308" to perform at lower velocities are we not right back to limited selection and availability?
It just seems that two contrary things are being claimed:
1) Better than 7.62x39 because you can use widely available, large variety of .308" bullets
2) Performance is better than expected at low velocities because a special .308" bullet is used
I have no doubt the subsonic version is superior to other comparable cartridges. But the claims of the .300 BLK being effective to 300 yds while maintaining the other advantages does not seem to stack up.
I guess "effective range" is subjective and what one person considers effective for this discussion of deer hunting another person may say it is not so effective. I've never heard anyone claim the 5.56 or 7.62x39 (or .30-30 for that matter) is an effective deer cartridge at 300 yds. Perhaps the .300 BLK has broken that paradigm, but field results will be the proof. Like the Army claims the 5.56 is "effective" to 400 or 500 meters but most people consider it "effective" especially for hunting to 200 yds.
That's the problem with simplistic graphs with generalizations like "versatility" and "average infantry engagement range". No real definition but they imply something. The graph may be "accurate" for possible infantry use, however I don't think it is an appropriate yardstick for deer hunting (this thread).
It is exactly like when 6.8 came out - it could use 270 bullets, but people also developed bullets just for 6.8 SPC that are even better. The difference is that there are even more 30 cal bullets.
The high point is at 117 yards and it is +3.6 inches.
As noted, the .300 BLK is very versatile as it can do the same job as well or better than suppressed MP5's, 5.56 mm SBR's, and AK47's. External and terminal ballistics are equal to or better than the well proven 7.62x39mm. With barrier blind projectiles, .300 BLK is an ideal caliber for both Patrol and Tactical LE use, as it offers outstanding terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability in the critical 0-100m range and remains capable out to 300m or so. .300 BLK is not superior to 6.8mm in terminal performance or range; .300 BLK does have an advantage over 6.8mm in terms of cost and parts availability...
I have a 300BLK and a 6.8SPC and I will use them both this year for hunting deer and hogs the 300BLK is a great round and I am having a blast loading it with the large variety of .308 bullets available for it but of course some are more suitable for its velocity's than others. For a cheap plinking round its great I am loading some 147 pulled bullets cheap and accurate.
Why can't we all just get along :sad:
Ed
I have a 10" Noveske 300 BLK and I'm certainly going to purchase a 16-18" Noveske Recon/SPR. Both calibers have much more to offer than 5.56 IMO. Different tools for the toolbox, I don't see why the fighting.
I am still waiting for the 30 goblin or 30 gremlin round the USAMU is using. It makes major power factor, 125gr going 2600+fps and 150gr doing around 2200fps.
I am still waiting for the 30 goblin or 30 gremlin round the USAMU is using. It makes major power factor, 125gr going 2600+fps and 150gr doing around 2200fps.
It is a 30 Grendal. You could also do a 30 caliber 6.8 SPC.
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=647
Versatility is the number of jobs it can do, number of rolls it can fulfill, and the number of other weapons it can replace.
For example, it can replace the MP5-SD as a quiet suppressed platform, but unlike the MP5-SD, it can also shoot out to 300 meters and do the role that the Mk18 is supposed to do. And the Mk18 cannot be quiet suppressed - hence it is more versatile than either. It can also handle the role that is sometimes filled by a subsonic 308 bolt action rifle.
To further clarify this statement, are you using the same ammo? Are you using the heavy 220 grain rounds to beat the MP5-SD and the lighter, faster rounds to achieve the 300 meter shots? Or 220s all around?
What would you consider to be the most versatile projectile for the 300BLK?
Spooky
220 subsonic for sound.
125 grain supersonic for comparison to M4.
The best all around projectile will be something in the 110-125 range. Specifically the Remington UMC, or the Sierra 2120 that AAC is distributing in October. Or for expanding, the Remington AccuTip 125.
Yo have probably posted this before but will Remington be selling the 125 accutips for reloaders.
Ed
I want to, but we don't have enough extra, so all the bullets will be loaded.
I suspect a barrier blind projectile like a 110-125 gr Remington CLUB or ATK TBBC will be the ideal general purpose bullet for the .300 BLK, esp for LE use, as well as hunting medium game.
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2362/model7.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2362/model7.jpg
Looks like you need a beta tester! Got lots of deer around here that would love to offer up their bodies for ballistic science.
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2362/model7.jpg
You guys have been busy with those 700's. :D
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2362/model7.jpg
What's that weird thing sticking out the side of the upper receiver? Is that the charging handle? Where's the ejection port cover? :jester:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2362/model7.jpg
Get those off the bench and shipped! One of them is mine!
Trying to decide if I want get a brake or a flash hider mount... Not sure the 300BLK recoil would warrant a brake or if the muzzle flash is bad enough for a hider...
Spooky
It does not need a brake or a flash suppressor. Given the choice, I would do a flash suppressor because brakes add noise.
These ship this week.
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6109/model7box.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/180/model7pallet.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3687/model7rack.jpg
It does not need a brake or a flash suppressor. Given the choice, I would do a flash suppressor because brakes add noise.
These ship this week.
Thanks for the insight... I need one of the two to work with my older 762SD.
Spooky
Either one - whichever you prefer.
That may be true, but energy has never killed anybody.
A more fair comparison may be the maximum performance range, where the projectile will expand properly, nominally 1900 fps for many rifle bullets.
What is the muzzle velocity and min expansion velocity for a popular 300blk projo like the 125 vmax?
We now know that the range at which the bullet will expand properly is no less than 300 yards:
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9338/300blk300small.jpg
That is going to be a kick butt hunting load for med game!
That is going to be a kick butt hunting load for med game!
But wait! I regularly take shots out to 600 yards...what now?
JUST KIDDING. I am very excited about this load, this load is what I think just broke straw on the camels back. As soon as the Noveske 10" barrel is back in stock I will be sending it out to get converted to an MRP style barrel....pretty excited about this. That kind of expansion at 300 yards from a 9 inch barrel is really impressive.
Johnny Yuma
01-15-12, 15:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgOF-9fxAyU&feature=related
A You-Tube .300 BLK White Tail video ...
Most .308" bullets are not going to perform well at 1,600 fps but if this is a custom designed bullet for the .300 LK, what is the expansion and penetration at 1,600 fps?
Thanks. [B]...It just seems that two contrary things are being claimed:
1) Better than 7.62x39 because you can use widely available, large variety of .308" bullets
2) Performance is better than expected at low velocities because a special .308" bullet is used...
Not really contrary. There is a larger variety of bullets available in .308 diameter than .311 allowing the reloader plenty to choose from in search of the best bullet for the job. The 300 BLK will be used for more than just deer hunting and a harder hitting substitute for the 5.56.
All calibers perform better than expected using a "special bullet". It's smart business for a company to develop a bullet to give the best performance for the job at hand. On M4carbine, it's known as "The Mission Drives the Gear". One of the most popular hunting calibers of all time relies on the performance of bullets specifically tailored to it for it's success and that's the 30-30 Winchester. Bullets have to expand enough at 30-30 velocities for humane kills and must be flat nosed (or Leverevolution design) to prevent setting off the primers of the cartridges in tubular magazines during recoil. The success of the 223/5.56 is due to bullets specifically tailored to the cartridge and expected mission parameters. The best thing Remington can do for the 300 BLK is to develop a bullet that launched at the velocities of the 300 BLK that will give the best terminal performance on deer inside 300 yards. It's not as a replacement of the 7.62x39 that will ensure the popularity of the 300 BLK but, in a light AR carbine, as the modern successor to the 30-30
Suwannee Tim
01-15-12, 16:21
6.8 has more brass in the shell so it can never be as cheap. Also the 300 BLK is planned to sell on volume.
I think it may have more to do with production costs. To make "basic" brass, that is, brass with a fully formed head, primer pocket, flash hole and rim but not necked down is an expensive, tooling and machinery intensive process. To neck down basic brass, trim it and load it are simple cheap processes, in fact, you can do it at home. 223 and 300 use the same basic brass and given the popularity of 223 the ammo companies will use their most efficient machines. 6.8 uses the oddball 30 Remington basic case, to make this one they will use semi-obsolete machines.
......Works with 30 caliber bullets that are so common......
When I first read about 6.8 I was enthusiastic except for the caliber. .277? Sheesh! There is nothing can be done with .277 that can't be done with 7mm and usually better. And there are a lot more 7mm bullets available.
Is that true? There were a lot more 7mm bullets?
Suwannee Tim
01-15-12, 19:20
Is that true? There were a lot more 7mm bullets?
There are a lot more .277 bullets today than ten years ago plus those made for the 6.8. Even so, there are lot more 7mm bullets around than .277.
How many .277 cartridges are there? 270 Winchester, 270 WSM and 270 Weatherby magnum which is obscure if not obsolete. How many 7mm cartridges are there? From 7-30 Waters to 7mm Remington Ultra Mag and too many in between to count. I think the .277 bore is a true odd ball. At the time Winchester dreamed it up 6.5 mm and 7mm were well established, they could have just as easily used one of these well standardized bores. The .277 bore began life as a marketing gimmick and if not for Jack O'Connor would have faded into obscurity. I just don't care for .277 bore. Until now. I guess since I now have one I have to love it. Fortunately I can call it 6.8.
We now know that the range at which the bullet will expand properly is no less than 300 yards:
This Vortex 110gr loading seems to go a long way toward addressing the primary weak spot of the 300 BLK, low energy and terminal performance at range.
If the gel results match the recovered bullets, it looks like you've got a winner.
My basic plan was to take all of the ammo support and advancements that normally take 10 years and compress it down to 2.
This load is a home-run for sure - as is the UMC, but we have 7 more custom loads coming out in the next year. Each one is going to be exceptional at what it was designed for.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/19623/300-aac-blackout-load/
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