AAR: Hackathorn/Vickers Low Light Intensive Course II [Archive]

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VA_Dinger

11-11-07, 20:30

The class went well.

Lets use this new thread for all reviews & discussions about Low Light Class #2.

dubb-1

11-11-07, 22:56

Make it snappy, will ya?! I hate that I had to miss this...again...:( :mad:

Paul, great sig line!:cool:

John_Wayne777

11-11-07, 23:48

I'm writing this having just arrived home about 15 minutes ago, so forgive me if this writeup sucks....

Anyway, overall I would rate the class as excellent. This is the first opportunity I've had to train with Ken Hackathorn...I sincerely hope it isn't my last.

The essence of the class was, as Ken put it, to "wean" us off the improper use of the white light. Human beings have a natural fear of the dark and we tend to like lots and lots of light....especially if we think there are bad guys trying to hurt us. The problem is that somebody with a flashlight becomes an instant target at night and thus one must learn to employ light properly if survival is a priority for them.

To that end the vast majority of the class was done in the dark. We did some shooting during daylight hours, mainly rehearsing what we would be doing later on that night without the aid of that big burning ball in the sky.

In the "armpit of Ohio" it gets pretty darn dark.

Personally I didn't find basic manipulation of my weapons to be much of a problem in the dark. I've done enough of these training things both in formal training courses and in my own personal training time that making my weapons function sans-light wasn't much of an issue for me.

Accuracy, on the other hand, went straight to hell. With the LIE method of engaging a target which involves engaging a target without a light on the target you are engaging essentially from memory, I found that my shots with the carbine weren't as good as I would prefer, but still quite doable thanks to the Aimpoint. The pistol was just flat out embarrassing. My M&P's Trijicon night sights went Tango Uniform on me and I was essentially point shooting at a target I could barely see in the pitch friggin' blackness.

The target was UGLY.

Non-tritium iron sights are next to useless in the dark or in low light.

For handguns, people with Crimson Trace grips had the easiest night. After watching the CT grips in use for one relay in the dark, I was sold. I'll be acquiring some for my carry guns ASAP.

Gear In general:

People sometimes get too worked up over gear choices, and still others will tell you that gear choices don't really matter, but the person behind the gear matters. Both of them are wrong.

Gear does not make the man, that is for absolute certain...but at the same time improper gear choices can cornhole you something fierce and can make the task of surviving something nasty HARDER.

For instance: During the daylight run on defensive clearing yours truly did just fine. Even the knife wielding target that claimed several members of the group I was in didn't get me because I put his friggin' lights out.

Easy day, especially since it wasn't my first trip through a shoot house doing room clearing.

Now fast forward to the night. I'm going through the same shoothouse with the same targets and the same layout and with the same equipment as before...only now I can barely see my hand in front of my face. I've finally confirmed that my night sights are indeed completely FUBAR and so I'm attempting to go through the shoothouse with my M&P just using my Surefire X200B and any flash sight picture I can glean using it.

That didn't turn out so good.

I still managed to stop the knife wielding attacker...but the rest of the bad guys killed me....all because I was trying to get my f**king light on and off. I was so damn busy trying to make my light work using the standard pain in the ass switch that I got stupid and did things like stand in the middle of a doorway and engage bad guys.

That's a no-no.

When my weapon ran dry I flipped off my X200 and began to reload...except that I didn't manage to actually turn off the X200. I managed to turn the switch all the way to the OTHER on position leaving a huge friggin' SHOOT ME beacon in the night and I didn't realize it until mid-reload, shortly before Ken started hollering at me to get the light off.

I finally managed to get the damn thing turned off and then switched to a hand held light which worked much better. The hits on my targets were all good, but my focus on trying to make that friggin' light work took enough clock cycles of brain power to make me do stupid stuff like stand in a doorway and shoot it out with two bad guy targets...both armed with SMGs.

Lesson learned:

1. Gear choices really can f**k you up.
2. Momentary switches are put onto "tactical" lights for a reason.
3. Multiple sighting systems on a handgun (lasers/night sights) = good idea.

Corrective action(s) taken:

1. Grant is getting an order for a pressure switch for that X200 very soon. While the pressure switch has a higher risk of light AD's than the standard Surefire switch, I'd rather risk that than the complete and utter melt-down experienced here.

2. CT grips will be acquired very soon.

Handgun Weapon lights:

I thought I would be at a significant disadvantage (in this course and in real life) if I didn't have a weapon light for my handgun. That turned out not to be true. I only used the X200 on my handgun on a couple of brief and as it turns out disastrous occasions, relying instead on my standard Surefire combat lights as my primary lights with the handgun. Turns out that my performance wasn't hindered in the slightest...and in fact, I performed significantly BETTER using the standard lights both in terms of using the light in a tactically correct fashion and in terms of where my bullets went. I've done low light training (albeit nowhere near this extensive) with the handgun before and always with standard hand held lights, and my performance with them showed it.

Are weapon mounted lights on a handgun a bad thing? No, but my personal experience shows that you need to spend some dedicated training time to figuring out the best way to run one if you intend to run one. You will not simply be able to slap one on your blaster and be good to go....well, at least not if you're at my skill level. (Which is admittedly pretty low...)

Crimson Trace Laser Grips:

Yes, they really do work and yes, they are to the handgun what the Aimpoint is for the carbine. The next revolution in handgunning is going to be the standard integration of some sort of laser/red dot style system into the handgun as a basic configuration for defensive purposes.

ARMS Throw Lever Mount for the Surefire M96 Weapon Light:

Blows goats. Seriously. The damn thing FELL OFF MY WEAPON in the middle of a friggin drill. I go to illuminate a target and there's nothing friggin' there to illuminate with. The lever was in the "locked" position and everything. That's going to be replaced ASAP, even if I have to resort to hose clamps.

Aimpoints:

They rock. Period.

Vickers BFG sling:

Best sling I've ever used. I've never been as happy with any sling arrangement as I am with this one.

AMMO:

A lot of folks don't consider the importance of muzzle flash when selecting ammo for serious social purposes. That used to include me. After doing this much low light shooting at once, however, and after attempting to use the LIE system taught by Larry and Ken, and after experiencing a COMPLETE loss of vision for brief periods of time (because of the flashbulb effect) after shooting flame-throwing rounds, I'm changing that. It's not the primary factor in choosing ammo, but it ought to be something people put into the mix of factors involved in selecting a carry load for a weapon. (Handgun or carbine)

Night Vision:

If there's a significant chance you're going to be using weapons to stop bad guys at night, or if you've just got a spare 3-4 grand laying around and you want something good to spend it on, night vision is a good choice. It's cheating, and cheating is always a good thing in a fight.

ASSORTED:

1. When a certain Carolina cop starts a sentence with the phrase "Interesting jail story..." you should plug your ears and run in the opposite direction as fast as you can. You don't really want to hear what's coming next. Seriously.

2. Canadians don't say "eh" as much as I thought they did. Kind of odd, eh? So now I have to wonder "aboot" the stuff I've heard regarding hockey and the perverted nonsense they refer to as "bacon".

3. If there is ever a version of Jeopardy in the gun world and if Templar is one of the contestants, just forfeit and save yourself the humiliation. How in the hell he knows all that stuff is beyond me.

4. Don't ask if Larry Vickers owns a particular weapon. The answer is almost certain to be yes. It would probably be easier to list the guns he DOESN'T own.

5. It takes guts to announce to a group of 2nd amendment loving guys that' you're from the UN and you are going to need registration information on all the weapons being used at this course....which leads me to:

6. There are places in Ohio where nobody can hear you scream...and if somebody does happen to hear it, they probably won't give a damn anyway.

7. I found a really neat blue helmet in Ohio. It's in great shape. It has a small bullet hole in it, and the inside of the helmet is kind of sticky, but other than that...

8. Apparently all flash-bangs are not created equal.

9. Chrome plated pizza pistols are the ultimate CQB weapon.

10. Freddie Blish is the man. He was handing out Aimpoints for folks to try, and even hooked my Bushmaster up with night vision and a DBAL...in one fell swoop mounting hardware on my weapon that was more valuable than my weapon AND my car put together.

I'm sure that later when I have some sleep I'll think of more, but that ought to be good enough to get the thread going.

EDIT --

MOST IMPORTANTLY I want to say flat out that if there is a low light course offered in 2008, I'M IN. I know this class is a pain in the neck logistically and that the teaching demands of the subject matter on the instructors is significant...but this is valuable info and experience that people just aren't going to be able to get any other way.

I appreciate Ken and Larry offering the course, and I appreciate the hospitality shown to us by the facilities we trained at.

We need MORE of this sort of class. Lots more.

VA_Dinger

11-12-07, 09:16

Thanks John, that is a great review.

Business_Casual

11-12-07, 10:15

Class photo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/photo.jpg

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 10:26

Now that I've had some sleep, a few more things:

1. Anyone who gets their panties in a twist because of any of Ken Hackathorn's drills is either ignorant of what is involved with them, or is a complete idiot.

2. This won't be a revelation to many people, but threat-focused shooting is a viable and valid method of engaging a target, especially at night. I used it to great effect both day and night in this course. You don't need the traditional bullseye sight picture (front sight clear, rear sight and target fuzzy) to make accurate shots. You can be focused on the threat, superimpose your sights on the threat and make a GOOD TRIGGER PULL and make head shots all day long at shorter ranges.

3. Again, this won't be a revelation to many people but it should be said for the benefit of those who haven't examined the question for themselves: Anyone who tells you about X lumens from a flashlight "blinding" an opponent and rendering them unable to shoot/stab/whatever you is a fool. Even with a light blazing in your eyes you can still put rounds on a target.

The demonstration using M4C's own KevinB (which is one of several I have seen) demonstrated pretty conclusively that a guy with a big honkin' light into his eyes can still pull a 1911 and put seven rounds center mass of a target. I've seen demonstrations using simunitions and even when moving you still see guys holding the lights getting hit...including being hit directly in the flashlight.

4. If you want to spark Ken's interest, pull out a Smith & Wesson 442 and start shooting with it. "Ah...now there's a man with a real gun!"

5. PRACTICE HAND HELD LIGHT TECHNIQUES!!! Operating a light AND a weapon in the dark under stress is a lot more difficult than you think it will be if you've never done it before. You need to get to the point that you naturally index the light and the weapon in the same place without thought or adjustment.

6. Learn and PRACTICE multiple hand held light techniques. You need an "inside" and an "outside" technique. Personally I find the Rogers and Harries techniques to be the most useful.

7. When you go to a class like this, listen to experienced students in the class. You often learn as much from fellow students as you do from the instructors. In this class, for instance, I picked up a lanyard technique for the combat lights from our German friend that I'd never seen before and that turned out to be the heat. It's so simple I don't know why I didn't think of it, but it's the best use of the lanyard I've ever seen. I used it for the rest of the course with very happy results.

Let the guys who have more experience do most of the talking and be prepared to soak up every little last tidbit of useful information you possibly can.

Notice I said "useful" information, which is not the same thing as jail stories from Carolina.

8. I'm glad I got rid of my P220s.

9. I almost fell over when I heard Ken Hackathorn call the M&P the pistol of the future.

10. G36es and UMPs SUCK.

11. There is no weapon or piece of gear in the world that can help you if you don't exercise proper trigger control. If you can develop your trigger control to the point where you can properly manipulate a trigger without conscious thought, you've assured that in a bad situation you'll be able to hit the threat.

12. The jerky at Abel's is pretty good...but not as good as the deer jerky we make around here in my opinion.

13. What is it about gun people and jerky anyway?

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 10:27

Class photo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/photo.jpg

I'm third from the left.

Sam

11-12-07, 10:46

Now that I've had some sleep, a few more things:

1. Anyone who gets their panties in a twist because of any of Ken Hackathorn's drills is either ignorant of what is involved with them, or is a complete idiot.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

On your item #1, I told an editor of a handgun magazine basically what you said verbatim after he and his henchman attacked Ken publicly, I cancelled my subscription immediately. He didn't care what I had to say.

markm

11-12-07, 11:12

Wow!

I need to get my sorry ass out to the range at night and practice.

Good write up.

cfrazier

11-12-07, 11:28

JOHNWAYNE ,

I'LL STILL CARRY MY P220. ONLY ONE MALFUNCTION AND THAT WAS MAG. RELATED. HAD A GREAT TIME LEARNING FROM KEN AND LARRY AND GLAD TO MEET ALL OF YOU FACE TO FACE. YES EVEN YOU UN.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 12:02

JOHNWAYNE ,

I'LL STILL CARRY MY P220.

Hey, it's your funeral.....:D

Dport

11-12-07, 12:13

John,
Thanks for sharing the experience with the X200 switch. For some reason, that style of switch gave me pause.

I've got two separate "tactical problems" to think about. The first is a barricade scenario for my wife when I'm at sea. I can see a weapon mounted light as being useful here. The second is when she wakes me up in the middle of the night when the damn cat jumps onto the counter. For the second, I've been more comfortable with a hand held light. But I hedge my bets. My nightstand has a WML on the Browning Pro-9 and a nine year old Surefire 6Z. I think I'll drop the WML.

Hawkeye

11-12-07, 12:46

3. Again, this won't be a revelation to many people but it should be said for the benefit of those who haven't examined the question for themselves: Anyone who tells you about X lumens from a flashlight "blinding" an opponent and rendering them unable to shoot/stab/whatever you is a fool. Even with a light blazing in your eyes you can still put rounds on a target.

The demonstration using M4C's own KevinB (which is one of several I have seen) demonstrated pretty conclusively that a guy with a big honkin' light into his eyes can still pull a 1911 and put seven rounds center mass of a target. I've seen demonstrations using simunitions and even when moving you still see guys holding the lights getting hit...including being hit directly in the flashlight.

Sadly, I know many people who will read this and then site it as 100% proof positive that you shouldnt use any kind of light at all.

I have had to personally rethink some of my low light positions though, based on some recent info similar to yours. That doesnt mean that I'm abondoning using a light though.

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 13:07

As I was suspecting, this class was awesome. Ken and Larry are the two best instructors I've had the oppertunity to train with and to have the chance to train with both at the same time made this a class I couldnt miss.

The material covered was a greatly expanded version of the material Larry and Ken teach in their respective classes with added material put in. For me, a lot of the material wasn't new but there were a few twists on things that I found to be worth their weight in goal. One of these was the LIE/VDA concept. It is something I do daily, but I had never been able to phrase it in such an articulate way as Ken did. I also enjoyed the runs in the shoothouse. Of course, how my agency does hits caused me to screw up one of the runs through, but we still managed to knock out the clear without any incident.

On the equipment front, my AK ran like a champ. It is a shame my I cant say the same for my Aimpoint. After talking with Freddie, it is waiting to be packaged up and sent off for repairs. If nothing else, it helped to reconfirm why it pays to have some ability to use your irons in the event of a failure of your primary optic.

My MP9/TLR1 combo worked great and was of huge help during the work inside the various shoothouses we used.

On a differing note, it was great to see former classesmates again and to finally out faces with screennames from here and other forums.

I'll be sure to add some more thoughts as they come to me.

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 13:12

That doesnt mean that I'm abondoning using a light though.

ANd you shouldnt be ditching the light. I use a mixture of the weapon-mounted light along with a handheld to solve lowlight problems. For me, the weaponlight permits the easiest way to engage threats. The handheld allows me to use varying angles to illuminate shadow areas and to mix things up a bit.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 14:33

Sadly, I know many people who will read this and then site it as 100% proof positive that you shouldnt use any kind of light at all.

The only way to avoid using light at all is to use night vision....not really an option for most people. Lights are necessary, and anyone claiming otherwise isn't really considering the question properly. Yes, they can give someone something to shoot at, but if one takes the time to learn to employ them correctly you can limit that. If one does the LIE drills shown by Ken and Larry properly, they will be doing them at full speed while moving, and should allow you to get within the ODA loop of a hostile that needs to be shot.

If someone uses the demonstration I cited as the reason why they won't carry/employ a light then frankly they are beyond help. Then again, this *is* the internet, and there are LOTS of people who are beyond help. The point of the demo was to kill the idea that is being put out there by silly people that the flashlight is a *weapon* to be used to stop the hostile actions of an opponent.

I have had to personally rethink some of my low light positions though, based on some recent info similar to yours. That doesnt mean that I'm abondoning using a light though.

Lights are like anything else...a tool. Learning how to use one properly is the key. The low light course was an eye opener in that department. I've done low light before and I've been taught to move after using the light before...but I've never been taught to actually drop the hammer sans-light before. That was a new one on me.

The most difficult thing for me to get used to in this course was using the white light mounted on the rifle in conjunction with the pistol. In a maneuver that I dubbed the "click, kick, bang" drill when I was doing it, Vickers taught that if you get a click instead of a bang with your rifle:

1. Get the rifle unslung (assuming you are using a two point...a single point sling may enable you to skip this step and just shift the rifle...)
2. Get the rifle tucked under your support arm in such a way that you can still activate the white light
3. While doing number 2 with the support hand, the strong hand should be drawing the pistol
4. Use the same LIE principles with the light mounted on the rifle but while shooting the handgun

Most of my time on the short bus was because of that drill. Practically all of my low-light training before this had been with handguns, so using the rifle mounted light with the handgun was a new one on me.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 14:47

ANd you shouldnt be ditching the light. I use a mixture of the weapon-mounted light along with a handheld to solve lowlight problems. For me, the weaponlight permits the easiest way to engage threats. The handheld allows me to use varying angles to illuminate shadow areas and to mix things up a bit.

I never thought to ask you this at the course, but is your weapon light equipped with a rocker switch or a tape/pressure switch?

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 14:48

I never thought to ask you this at the course, but is your weapon light equipped with a rocker switch or a tape/pressure switch?

Pistol or rifle?

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 14:55

Pistol or rifle?

Pistol.

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 14:58

Just the standard rocker switch found on the TLR-1. I used to run a DG-11 on an X200, but didnt like having to change grip pressure to prevent the light from activating.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 15:09

Some other optics related stuff:

The Aimpoint micro was VERY well received. It seems to be as rugged as its bigger brothers and those using them at the course (Either provided by Mr. Blish or personally owned) seemed to like them a great deal.

Also look for a new version of the Comp M4 with the battery box moved down to the lower part of the sight.

Doctor Optics red dots mounted on ACOGs are difficult to run well.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 15:21

John,
Thanks for sharing the experience with the X200 switch. For some reason, that style of switch gave me pause.

It's something you should play with a while to see if it fits you. I took it on faith that the rocker switch would work best for me, but it really didn't. I'm blessed with large hands but rather short fingers....my palm is actually longer than my social finger. As a result I find manipulating the rocker switches on handgun lights to be difficult.

Someone with different physiology might find it much easier than I do.

I'm not about to ditch my X200 and give up on the concept of weapon lights on handguns....far from it. I'm just going to find a way to run them that works best for my particular needs.

SHIVAN

11-12-07, 15:37

Wasn't at the class, but here's my take so far on tape switch/pressure pads on my pistol:

I run a Warrior with the X200 and DG-18 switch. I can not, for the life of me balance the use of both a correct firing grip and the DG switch.

If I maintain a firm grip to manage recoil on fast shots, I end up having white light discharges. :(

So, now I have the X300 on one Warrior and the X200 with DG switch is sitting idly by....

During the low light portion of the 10-8 course in South Hill (Dave, Simon and Tom), I used an X200 with standard rocker switch. I use my support thumb, out front a hair, to flash illuminate the target.

I have thought about getting the CT grips, but the Gunner grips are way too good from a grip standpoint to trade over.

If Strider could get CT to incorporate a laser in their grip panels. They would rule the world of tactical 1911 grips, IMO.

Rmplstlskn

11-12-07, 15:44

AMMO:

A lot of folks don't consider the importance of muzzle flash when selecting ammo for serious social purposes.

True... I've been fragged many times on TOS by the "just use a flash suppressor" and the "A2 flash suppressor is fine" crowds...

Any ammo recommendations given that use "flash suppressants" in the powder, especially in a PISTOL round?

I don't know of any pistol ammo that is "low flash." Maybe CORBON?

As for 5.56mm, the XM193 is definetly NOT low flash, nor are many others. I know my IMI ammo is, as well as some military WCC ammo, but have not tested others (Guat, Malaysian, etc...) BH MK262 and TAP I think are low flash as well.

So any recommendations given?

Rmpl

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 15:47

Your best bet for low flash pistol "duty" ammo is the Winchester Ranger loads. They have the lowest flash I have seen of all duty rounds.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-07, 15:52

True... I've been fragged many times on TOS by the "just use a flash suppressor" and the "A2 flash suppressor is fine" crowds...

Any ammo recommendations given that use "flash suppressants" in the powder, especially in a PISTOL round?

I don't know of any pistol ammo that is "low flash." Maybe CORBON?

As for 5.56mm, the XM193 is definetly NOT low flash, nor are many others. I know my IMI ammo is, as well as some military WCC ammo, but have not tested others (Guat, Malaysian, etc...) BH MK262 and TAP I think are low flash as well.

So any recommendations given?

Rmpl

Actually, it was clearly demonstrated that the A2 flash suppressor is in fact, fine. It does a good job.

Great class and great to meet some more guys - more thoughts to come in a bit.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-07, 15:54

I'm blessed with large hands but rather short fingers....my palm is actually longer than my social finger.

Didn't NCPatrolAR suggest you getting a job working in the evidence room?

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 15:55

Didn't NCPatrolAR suggest you getting a job working in the evidence room?

We both know a hole he could fill with those clubhands of his ;)

SHIVAN

11-12-07, 16:01

A lot of folks don't consider the importance of muzzle flash when selecting ammo for serious social purposes. That used to include me.

No one ran a suppressor full time?? It's one of the reasons I have them...:D

Rmplstlskn

11-12-07, 16:25

Actually, it was clearly demonstrated that the A2 flash suppressor is in fact, fine. It does a good job.

Until SBR's come into play... Even the 14.5" is pushing the A2 past its engineering. Plenty of good FS's out there though (Vortex, Phantom, etc...)...

Rmpl

VA_Dinger

11-12-07, 17:03

I took it on faith that the rocker switch would work best for me, but it really didn't. I'm blessed with large hands but rather short fingers....my palm is actually longer than my social finger. As a result I find manipulating the rocker switches on handgun lights to be difficult.

Instead of trying to rock the X200 switch to activate just push it in or bump it with your support hand thumb. It activates both ways. I found it's a lot easier to use the flash bulb technique bumping the switch instead of trying to rock it side to side. LAV / Dave P. taught me this when I was fumbling around with the X200 rocker switch one day.

I have never been able to totally alleviate white light ND's when using a DG switch. That’s why the only one I still own sits permanently on my wife’s nightstand G19. For her it’s perfect because I don’t have to worry about her NOT having the light turned on.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 17:06

Didn't NCPatrolAR suggest you getting a job working in the evidence room?

Yes....and I've had nightmares ever since.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-07, 17:22

This was a rare opportunity - two world-class instructors providing training in a critical aspect of fighting; so much bad stuff occurs in low light...

Handguns:
I wasn't so sure about weapon mounted lights on handguns; I am a believer now. Have a weapon light on the long gun and the handgun and also have a handheld. Having your support hand free to open doors, tap your partner on the shoulder, grab your mag for a reload etc. is much nicer than sticking the handheld under your arm or in your mouth.

The CT laser is extremely effective in low light.

I had the opportunity to do low light pistol training earlier this year with Farnam. One theme stands out: movement is critically important. Don't stand there like a retard with your light on.

"Point shooting" is widely misunderstood. It is not a quick draw and shoot from the hip Wild West thing. It means focus on the threat, superimpose the pistol sights and press. This is a 10 meter and inside way to do things.

Sometimes we get caught up in denouncing the importance of gear over tactics and mindset - but brother, if your weapon has no night fighting capability then you are well and truly f'd if the situation arises. Gear IS important, and where you place it on your body. Can you get to it in the dark?

Snake drills and shoothouse at night - after reading the 1st class AAR on this I was apprehensive. Thinking back on it now, I just did what Ken told us to do and everything went fine. I partnered up with John_Wayne777, we briefly discussed some tactics and then we cleared like we had both been doing it for a while - nice and smooth. Really, I thought this part of the training went very well. The snake drills didn't even get my blood pressure up. This may also be an indicator that I'm a sociopath - unsure but possible.

Longguns:
Sometimes certain things seem easier in the dark. It is weird and I can't put my finger on it, but my group seemed to go through rifle malfunction clearance very smoothly in the dark. During the daylight LAV was running out of names to call us.

A carbine intended for serious purposes had better have the following:
one point or adjusting 2 point sling
reflex optic, preferably Aimpoint
coaxial white light

An aggressive stance is important for recoil mitigation while shooting the carbine, less so for the pistol but still applicable.

Misc:
German cops have no problem drinking Ballistol - seriously.

MP5's are very fast in close quarters.

It was rewarding to be able to provide feedback directly to guys that matter - I let LAV know about his gloves and Glock mag release, and Freddie Blish know about the Aimpoint Micro on an AK with an UltiMAK rail.

Ken Hackathorn is a Kalashnikov enthusiast.

Thanks Dinger for helping to set this up - you were missed brother.

Hawkeye

11-12-07, 17:58

Didn't NCPatrolAR suggest you getting a job working in the evidence room?Yes....and I've had nightmares ever since.

I am detecting that I am seriously missing something regarding evidence room personel......

C4IGrant

11-12-07, 19:01

No one ran a suppressor full time?? It's one of the reasons I have them...:D

I did, but most of the guys posting in this thread were in the window licker string, errr I mean the other string so they never saw me. :D

C4

C4IGrant

11-12-07, 19:03

Instead of trying to rock the X200 switch to activate just push it in or bump it with your support hand thumb. It activates both ways. I found it's a lot easier to use the flash bulb technique bumping the switch instead of trying to rock it side to side. LAV / Dave P. taught me this when I was fumbling around with the X200 rocker switch one day.

I have never been able to totally alleviate white light ND's when using a DG switch. That’s why the only one I still own sits permanently on my wife’s nightstand G19. For her it’s perfect because I don’t have to worry about her NOT having the light turned on.

This is how I use my SF X200/X300 as well. No issues with light ND's all class (or the previous class I was in).

C4

C4IGrant

11-12-07, 19:07

SHIVAN

11-12-07, 19:09

I did, but most of the guys posting in this thread were in the window licker string, errr I mean the other string so they never saw me. :D

I bet you had no issues with flash, right? What can did you run? SBR?

TOrrock

11-12-07, 19:10

Question I have to ask. Those of us that were in the holiday inn bar (and got kicked out) and then went to Hoser B's room for more adult beverages, how did you do on Sunday????? Was it a little bright outside for ya? Guns a little loud??? :D

C4

I did just fine, winning two of the drills (with the Colt 6920), but I left at 4am, leaving you guys to do whatever it was that you guys were doing.........:cool:

TOrrock

11-12-07, 19:40

This was an outstanding class taught by world class instructors that challenged everyone who took it.

I'm definitely a better shooter for taking it.

I'll retake the class next year if it's offered. I sincerely hope it is, although I understand what a monumental pita is it to run one.

I started out the first day with my Arsenal SLR-106FR AK in 5.56mm, it ran fine, and Freddie Blish got the Aimpoint up and running, but the site finally died on the second day of night shooting. I broke out my backup, a Colt 6520 with a 6920 upper on it and a Compact ACOG TA-44R. I have mixed feelings about the optic. It worked "ok" for night shooting, but not as well as an Aimpoint. I'll probably keep it.

No issues with my SIG P226.

I can't really over emphasize how much I took away from this class.

Highly recommended for experienced shooters. It was a pleasure watching some of the more high speed/low drag members of my group go through the shoot house.

Thanks to Larry and Ken for doing this, and to the AI's (Joe R especially). The quality of instruction was outstanding.

Lumpy196

11-12-07, 20:29

BH MK262 and TAP I think are low flash as well.

All Black Hills .223 loads have a very low flash signature.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-07, 20:57

Question I have to ask. Those of us that were in the holiday inn bar (and got kicked out) and then went to Hoser B's room for more adult beverages, how did you do on Sunday????? Was it a little bright outside for ya? Guns a little loud??? :D

C4

I won the transition drill in my group.

Of course, I was shooting a Glock and an AK, fully exploiting their laser-like accuracy.

:cool:

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 21:10

I am detecting that I am seriously missing something regarding evidence room personel......

It was a story by NCPatrolAR that involved suspect searches, places to hide narcotics, and a "blooming onion"......

Be thankful you are missing it.

Really.

John_Wayne777

11-12-07, 21:12

I did, but most of the guys posting in this thread were in the window licker string, errr I mean the other string so they never saw me. :D

Hey, now......get it right.

We were the SHORT BUS group. And through extraordinary effort on the part of some of the group A guys we managed to get off the short bus list....at least for a little while. Everybody has window licking moments, but some of us seem to have made it a lifestyle.

Our group made Larry pray.

Seriously.

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 22:12

I'd like to take the class again, but next time I'll do it with an AR.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-07, 22:25

I'd like to take the class again, but next time I'll do it with an AR.

I would have no problem taking it again with my AK. It's night-fighting capability was solid. Accuracy-wise it was close to the AR's and I could run it just as fast, with one exception:

On TD3, one of the last competitive drills was one where you started with 5 rounds in the long gun. You shot 5 standing, then went to the knee while performing an emergency reload, 5 more kneeling then 5 prone. Well, on a canned drill like this, the AR guys have it all over an AK user. I had the option of using a "Pat Rogers" emergency reload a.k.a. activate the mag latch and sweep out the empty with the fresh mag, but LAV did not train me that way. He teaches reload with retention for the AK and I agree with him, so that's what I did. It affected my time but big deal.

This goes to show, if you desire to run an AK for serious purposes, you must become a master of the admin/tactical reload. Ammo management is crucial, because you want to avoid that emergency reload if you can. You must also master transitions to the sidearm inside 25m. This applies to AR users, of course, but moreso with the AK. An AR is simply easier to reload quickly.

NCPatrolAR

11-12-07, 22:37

The speed of reloads is the only advantage I saw the AR shooters had over those of us using AKs.The setup I have on my AK is just fine and I have no problems with it (other than the non-functional Aimpoint); I'd just like to do the course with an AR since that is what I'm more likely to fight with.

Jay Cunningham

11-12-07, 22:42

shooter521

11-12-07, 22:56

My M&P's Trijicon night sights went Tango Uniform on me

How does THAT happen? I mean, I know Mr. Murphy is a shooter and all, but damn. :eek:

Heavy Metal

11-12-07, 22:57

I can see I am going to have to take this class next year.

I would like to get a LAV pistol/carbine under my belt first.

I spent this weekend having real fun getting over a series of Albenza and Flagyl. I hope any of you never have to go thru that experience.

KevinB

11-12-07, 23:22

I use the offhand thumb to push my X200 pressure switch - I never use the rocker.
I'm a bit luckier than some as I was not fighting my gear - seeing it was my work rig and I've had a bit of time to sort it (well other than the one time the doorhandle grabbed me)

I had my X200 go out on an entry when I was the #1 - I immediately went to the G2 on my chest and ID'd and engaged the bad guy.
(seems the pin that holds the switch on was working out under recoil and the switch would not work -- then a few more rounds and it went constant on -- I'd never seen that happen before -- anyway I will be ensuring I correct that somehow)

I wore a set of ANVIS9G's the second nigth for a few drills -- and using it with my Attila-200 IR laser pointer/aimer -- Larry thought I was shooting a bit fast - but I was cheating (the only fair fight being the fight you win...) and saw the tgt quite well -and the laser was on when I was squeezing the trigger.
I was hoping Ken would let Freddie, Grant and I do a no vis light hit on the house --- but the window licker relay was whining they wanted to shutterdown already and apparently Larry was in prayer mode. Grant ran his can -- and Larry had Grant and I demo our guns at nigth (his 10.5 suppressed with my 11.5 unsuppressed)

It is hard to run non vis light setups when others are illuminating the countryside with their Surefires.

I was surprised at the vegetarians - I had figured more meat eaters (as Ken would say)

I broke out the 10.5 Hk416 for day 3 after a round of Frang got stuck in my 11.5 SR16/URX gun

Larry ran an informative LWRC versus Hk416 compare and contrast with my 416's and Zef's LWRC. A few people took me up on shooting the 10.5 (no one seemed to want to shoot the 14.5)

Speer Lawman 230gr .45ACP is NOT low flash

Lastly don't buy Nigthhawk 1911 mags -- they are ass.

Most importantly I was great to meet you guys
Erik
Freddie
Tim
Jay
John
Charlie
and the others who names I have forgotten in the fog of beer from Saturday night (okay Sunday morning)

I am sold on another -- and of course I need a pistol class to sit down and refinish my techniques as there where times "el super snatcho" came to play

Sunday hurt -- do not drink until after 0500 when you need to be at the range at noon (yes common sense for most...)

BigRed

11-13-07, 00:49

Hoser A here.

Overall, I thought the course was excellent. I don't think anyone who attended would be able to say they didn't pick up on some new techniques they can apply to their job/self defence. It was also great to meet everyone on the course; Erik, John, Freddy, Jay, Grant, Tim, and everyone else's name I can't recall.

Gear selection
I didn't have any problems with my gear or flashlights. I ran a x200 with DG pressure switch on my Glock (thanks Grant) and a Scout on my rifle. For gear I ran a simple plate carrier with magazine pouches and a handheld pouch (z2). No problems with any of the lights.

We stopped at Grant's shop on the way to the course and he managed to get us everything we needed. I've never been to a gunstore where I've had a list of 20 items and every one is in stock. If you have any M4ish type needs, Grant's shop is the place to order from.

Weapons/ammo
Due to Hoser A & B's circumstances (coming from overseas), we didn't have a chance to test or zero prior to the course. Right off the bat we confirmed the suspicion that an HK416 upper will not run on a lower with a semi auto hammer. I switched over to a 16" Colt abortion upper with an Aimpoint in a American Defense (thanks Grant) throwlever mount. The upper had a set screwed vltor flipup front sight/gasblock that wouldnt stay up. On my guns overseas I run either a fixed front sight or staked gasblock wtih flipup...for a reason.

We ran US mil frangible ammo. The ammo worked most of the time but I had about 4 or 5 stoppages in the approx 500 rounds max that I fired. Out of the 1:9 barrel the rounds were also keyholing at distances over 10m.

Freddy was showing off the new Aimpoint hardware and I was very impressed. I'll be picking up a micro and Comp m4B as soon as it's available. I'm not a diehard Aimpoint or Eotech guy as I own several of each, but Aimpoint is making some real advances, especially in the models designed for belt feds.

Instructors
Larry and Ken were great instructors with a shitload of experience to backup their teachings. I've read reviews online about Larry's coruses that mention him being abrasive or mean but I didn't see that. Plenty of 'short bus' comments though.

Partying
Marietta is not a place to go if you want to have a good time at night (aside from the range) Apparantly the hotel bar is the most happening place in this bustling metropolis and on a Saturday night it had about 5 patrons besides barstaff and M4Carbiners.

Suprisingly nobody complained about the get together in the Hoser's room that went past 5am.

Lessons learned

My pistol shooting was deplorable and the course was a wakeup call. Being overseas the last 3 years I've let my handgun training slip horribly. I'll be hitting the range for some handgun work a few more times this leave and try to slip in on a tactical pistol type course next leave to brush up. Erik L. took me aside at the end of the course and gave me some advice which instantly improved my accuracy.

I won't go into detail of the various flashlight techniques, but I picked up several new techniques and will be practicing them on the range. Ken made a great point that you can still practice your low light techniques like using a handheld with a pistol during daylight hours.

All in all, a great experience and a good excuse to escape Canada on leave.

TOrrock

11-13-07, 00:52

I'll say it here publicly so that I won't catch crap from Kevin......yes, AR's have it all over AK's when it comes to mag changes. :o :D

But......AK mag changes can be done very smoothly if you train for it.

Again, it was a hell of a learning experience and it was great to meet up with guys I've shot and trained with before, and to make new friends as well.

ErikL

11-13-07, 01:52

Here is my two sheckles worth of opinion so take it for what its worth.

Class was largely a mixture of people that you would find in any town in America, with a few exceptions. I am always amazed at the lack of LEO's at these things, but what can you do. Overall a good group of guys.

Ken and Larry are true professionals; even keeled delivery of material and concepts broken down into an easily digested format. This is important for guys like me, who talk in four letter words and have to remember to not drag their knuckles on the ground. Any questions were generally asked and answered on the spot, with confirmation to make sure the question was explained satisfactory.

With the Pre-req's prior to class, you were expected to have a working knowledge of your weapons and marksmanship, and if you didn't no time was spent correcting you. Something I totally agree with.

The drills we ran are repeatable at just about any range, and allow you to measure your improvement with the use of a shot timer and where your hits are. If you were looking for your ego to get stroked about your ability this wasn't the class for. However there was positive reenforcement along with a razing when you screwed the pooch.

The ranges were great, Kudos to those that allowed us to have access to them. It's not easy to find training locations in these times.

As far as gear goes I learned a few things. CTC grips rock, I ran a set on my 1911. I installed them them the night prior to the class and sighted them in prior to leaving town for the drive there. I fired just enough rounds to ensure they were on target, and where my hold overs were out to 100 yards ~20 rounds. Other than that i had never used them before.

I'm sold, not going to go into detail why. Buy set and see for yourself. I think everyone that seen them used will end up buying them. They Aren't without issue The grips are pretty slick, and could use some texture added. With gloves on I didn't feel connected to my pistol at all. Yes you can add texture with a soldering iron, but for the cost of them you shouldn't have to. The battery cross over can also interfere with the pressure switch for your light if you have one.
Even with all that, I'm sold and will add them to every gun I can.

Weapons maintenance, I was using XD7 grease on my pistol and didn't wipe enough of it off. Cold mornings and nights left the gun sluggish even after oiling. It caused one malfunction because the pistol failed to go into battery on the 3rd morning. I know all about selecting the proper lube for varying temps and conditions. Just didn't think it was that cold out.

Overall class was great, and I would not hesitate to take another class from either Ken and/or Larry again.
Got some great training, met some great folks, drank a few adult beverages and had some hard laughs. I can't think of many better ways to spend the Marine Corps Birthday and Veterans/ Remembrance day.

Oh and I almost forgot the feast of Smoked chicken halves, pork lion, potatoes ect. That Ken and Larry had "catered" in. There is something magical about eating a perfectly smoked half chicken with your hands...did I mention i have to try hard to not drag my knuckles.

Hope this class is a go again.

Cheers

C4IGrant

11-13-07, 08:01

I bet you had no issues with flash, right? What can did you run? SBR?

I ran a 10.5, SF 556K-B, PVS-14 and had not flash issues.

C4

C4IGrant

11-13-07, 08:04

Hey, now......get it right.

We were the SHORT BUS group. And through extraordinary effort on the part of some of the group A guys we managed to get off the short bus list....at least for a little while. Everybody has window licking moments, but some of us seem to have made it a lifestyle.

Our group made Larry pray.

Seriously.

Did LAV attempt to cut his own wrist? That's when you know its real bad. ;)

C4

C4IGrant

11-13-07, 08:13

Jay Cunningham

11-13-07, 08:16

Did LAV attempt to cut his own wrist? That's when you know its real bad. ;)

C4

No, but he did get take a knee at one point and pray to "dear, sweet Jesus up above..."

:D

Kevin, John, Eric great to meet you fellas and I hope to see you in class again.

Grant, always a pleasure. Everytime you tell me a Super Dave story I cry for 10 minutes.

John_Wayne777 & NCPatrolAR (MILFMaster) - I will be happy to shoot on the short bus crew with you dudes anytime.

Jay Cunningham

11-13-07, 08:17

Good to finally meet you Eric and thanks for all the "hugs." :mad:

We should have a contest - I think I got hugged by Eric 4 times. Can anybody top that?

C4IGrant

11-13-07, 08:19

No, but he did get take a knee at one point and pray to "dear, sweet Jesus up above..."

:D

Kevin, John, Eric great to meet you fellas and I hope to see you in class again.

Grant, always a pleasure. Everytime you tell me a Super Dave story I cry for 10 minutes.

John_Wayne777 & NCPatrolAR (MILFMaster) - I will be happy to shoot on the short bus crew with you dudes anytime.

Roger on praying on his knees. You were getting close to wristing cutting then. Maybe one or two more drills and he would have broke out the knife. :D

C4

C4IGrant

11-13-07, 08:20

We should have a contest - I think I got hugged by Eric 4 times. Can anybody top that?

Hmmm, I am not sure as I had too many beers and stopped counting. I know that I got at least 3 hugs (which was 3 too many).

C4

John_Wayne777

11-13-07, 08:27

How does THAT happen? I mean, I know Mr. Murphy is a shooter and all, but damn. :eek:

Because they were defective from the get-go....

I installed the sights a couple of weeks ago and they seemed fine...but at the course my front sight was so dim I couldn't see it. I have no idea what happened, but Trijicon is getting a phone call soon...

And the lesson learned here is: If you are putting low light equipment on your weapon, perhaps you should (DUH!!!) check it out in the friggin' dark so you aren't standing against the berm before your run in the pitch black shoothouse staring at your sights in comparison to other guys sights (which are putting out enough light to READ by) going:

[Gomer Pyle]
Well gooolleee! Them glowin' sights ain't glowin' at all!
[/Gomer Pyle]

I don't know what it is about me, but if something can break I seem to be the guy who manages to break it. At every training course I go to I always have some piece of gear puke on me at some point...and typically it will puke on me at the worst time like the Cproducts mag that screwed me on one of our competition drills. I had it in the bag until round number 10 fed to slow and got rammed into the feed ramps sideways.

John_Wayne777

11-13-07, 08:31

I was hoping Ken would let Freddie, Grant and I do a no vis light hit on the house --- but the window licker relay was whining they wanted to shutterdown already and apparently Larry was in prayer mode.

Guys in your group wanted to quit???

Hell, I wanted to keep going. I was good until 3 or 4 am easy.

Hawkeye

11-13-07, 08:37

It was a story by NCPatrolAR that involved suspect searches, places to hide narcotics, and a "blooming onion"......

Be thankful you are missing it.

Really.

As a former Property & Evidence guy myself, just curious.......... ;)

Sounds like this was a great class. I hate missing these.

NCPatrolAR

11-13-07, 08:38

Hell, I was getting cold on day 2, but I wasnt going to quit until the lessons were over. I was hoping to break out the 9mm AR I had brought in order to do some runs through the house.

John_Wayne777

11-13-07, 08:45

Hmmm, I am not sure as I had too many beers and stopped counting. I know that I got at least 3 hugs (which was 3 too many).

Between the hugging and the guy with the tongue I'm sort of glad I missed the after party....

John_Wayne777

11-13-07, 08:48

As a former Property & Evidence guy myself, just curious.......... ;)

Chris related a story about a gentleman who had a severely distended rectum which had apparently been used contrary to manufacturer's instructions in quite hideous ways who had to be searched before going into jail.

Apparently when he bent over you could see what he was thinking.

I told him that while I was thoroughly repulsed at the tale, he did get points for making the first joke about fisting I'd ever heard at a training course.

John_Wayne777

11-13-07, 08:49

Hell, I was getting cold on day 2, but I wasnt going to quit until the lessons were over. I was hoping to break out the 9mm AR I had brought in order to do some runs through the house.

Yup. Larry pulled the plug on us either because we were starting to really suck as a group (personally I didn't think we sucked any more than usual) or because his patience was exhausted.

I dunno. Jay, Chris, Charlie and me were having too much fun to notice.

BigRed

11-13-07, 09:00

After reading some of the other posts I remembered a few other points about weapons accessories for night fighting:

XS Big Dot sights- My borrowed Glock 19 was equipped with these. They would take some getting used to from normal 3 dots, and this class wasn;t enough time with them to say whether they are good to go or not. I found them distracting as I'm used to handguns with 3 dots of some variety.

Crimson Trace - the equivalent of an aimpoint on your handgun. The guys with these were FAST at night (Eric L). Lasers are NOT a gimmick.

Muzzle brakes are for daytime use. Especially the Noveske dragon pig can thing.

NCPatrolAR

11-13-07, 09:10

Muzzle brakes are for daytime use. Especially the Noveske dragon pig can thing.

I dont think the KX3 was as bad as Zef's Surefire muzzle break. That thing was punishing, but he had some serious split times.

Sam

11-13-07, 13:28

Yup. Larry pulled the plug on us either because we were starting to really suck as a group (personally I didn't think we sucked any more than usual) or because his patience was exhausted.

I dunno. Jay, Chris, Charlie and me were having too much fun to notice.

Did LAV use the term "freelancing" ? :)

C4IGrant

11-13-07, 13:41

Did LAV use the term "freelancing" ? :)

Of course! And "your testing my skills!"

C4

Nathan_Bell

11-13-07, 13:54

Of course! And "your testing my skills!"

C4

I might have heard that before

Jay Cunningham

11-13-07, 13:56

Yes, there was much freelancing and skill testing going on. I heard a couple of new ones, though. He told one guy that he looked like "f'g Pee-Wee Herman" on his pistol transition and he called me "Spongebob" when I transitioned and got real square to the target.

Before this dies out, I want to give a shout out to the dudes at Raven Concealment Systems:

http://www.ravenconcealment.com/

These guys not only had representative examples of kydex gear but they custom made stuff at the range! Pretty f'ing cool! I purchased a Glock 19 holster and had them make up a custom mag carrier for a 5.56mm Bulgarian AK magazine... turned out great.

EricL deserves a permanent head-of-the-line pass from them for his future dealings.

boyanzhu

11-13-07, 14:52

It was a great humbling experience, very healthy for one's ego; the instructors were world class and all students real studs. Thanks a lot Ken and Larry!

I have 3 stories of my own:
1. I was eating some #1 breakfast in a local McDonalds on Sun, and these 3 characters come in and walk straight at me. I greet them, here's what they do:
- Ken smiles, says "Heeey, look who's here (slaps my shoulder) eating the good American food!"
- LAV says "Makes you Fat!" with a very serious look.
- Frank from Frankfurt just looks thru me and says nothing.
Did this story capture their personalities correctly?

2. 2 instructors who were helping Ken told me independently I was a lousy dancer. A year ago Jeff Gonzales made fun of me and told me I was a horrible dancer. 2 years ago Jacob Bynum told me - "thank God you're not a dancer"
I do suck at movement because someone taught me different style of movement 28 years ago and I have trouble letting go of the old habits. I'm also having difficulty finding a range where I can practice movement.
Back to the dancing subject, I dance pretty well and I won some dancing competitions. I just never had a dancing competition while shooting. Does anybody know if any of these instructors were actually teaching dancing in the past?

3. Before one of the carbine competitions LAV told me: "Don't let me go Joseph Stalin on you". I did not win this comp, but I shot my personal best time by far. Was this a positive reinforcement or a negative reinfocement?

2 things were not clear to me, I meant to ask LAV, but the chance never materialized, maybe one of you can answer:

1. In the LIE cycle, after the LI parts, why not illuminate the target for the 3rd time for another 1/4 sec just prior to the ignition? The muzzle flash is coming out in 20msec anyway... I admit procrastinating the engagement and pulling the trigger only at the times of other peoples muzzle flashes or light spills...

2. In the rectangle and figure 8 movement with the carbine (where I did very poorly), I was bringing the carbine down to high ready and engaging safety after every shot to orient, transition to new target and move better/safer. I ended up fumbling safety many times. That was my biggest problem. My question is: What's was the proper safety operation per LAV? Keep it off for the duration of the drill?

Thanks,

Pee-Wee Herman

KevinB

11-13-07, 14:54

SF G2 -- really all the light you need (both handheld and carbine mounted)

Aimpoint Micro -- get one, Freddie got a read on me pretty early and was wanting it back prior to the 416 being put in my trunk. It sits really well on the gun - great preripheral vision - perfect little SBR or beltfed sight.
- we need Mark Larue to get a 416 fixed sight friendly mount for it -- the one was too low (my Attila refused it co-witness ability) and the high was good for Troy/KAC etc BIS's - but the fixed Hk sights where too low.

Blue Force Gear Redi-Mag -- get one, your reloads will be slicker than snot - and very little weight added.

G&R version of the Vickers sling - very cool - KAC push button QD studs built in -- makes the most use of the adjustability of the sling -- I also figured out what ToddAckerman was talking about wrt the transition, LAV managed to show me my errors and makes transitioning either to other shoulder or to a low weak hand on the carbine light position - a lot easier.

PMAGS -- still rock

AA40 Frang -- 700 some odds rounds thru the 11.5 KAC/Noveske gun now issues -- then one poor crimp and a bullet stuck in the throat
ran fine for 200 plus rounds with the 10.5 Hk416.

RavenConcealment guys where very cool -- Ken Hackathorns rigs looked really good - so a number of us bought stuff from them -- very easy to deal with and great guys -- I think Freddie bought stock in their company, or shoudl have with all the stuff he carted away...

NCPatrolAR

11-13-07, 16:42

3. Before one of the carbine competitions LAV told me: "Don't let me go Joseph Stalin on you". I did not win this comp, but I shot my personal best time by far. Was this a positive reinforcement or a negative reinfocement?

It was positive. You shot a personal best, right? You cant ask for a lot more than that.

1. In the LIE cycle, after the LI parts, why not illuminate the target for the 3rd time for another 1/4 sec just prior to the ignition? The muzzle flash is coming out in 20msec anyway... I admit procrastinating the engagement and pulling the trigger only at the times of other peoples muzzle flashes or light spills...

You are basicaly just delaying the inevitable (the shooting of the bad guy). You ID'ed him as a person with yor first flash and your second flash confirms the decision to shoot or not to shoot. A third flash would simply delay the process of putting rounds down range and ending the threat. This is why LAV mention that your second flash is going to be longer than your intial one. It is on the second flash that you are judging the actions of the attacker and determing if you are going to try to take his life. In short, 3rd and 4th bursts of light are typically signs you are second guessing yourself. Also, keep in mind that each time you turn on the light, you give the attacker the address to your new position.

My question is: What's was the proper safety operation per LAV? Keep it off for the duration of the drill?

I keep it off most of the time. I know I am going to be shooting more than one "person" so I dont see the need in continualy engaging the safety. In a FIGHT! I wont be rengaging the safety so why do it there?

If I'm incorrect on anything, someone will be along to correct me.

NCPatrolAR

11-13-07, 17:02

Before this dies out, I want to give a shout out to the dudes at Raven Concealment Systems:

http://www.ravenconcealment.com/

These guys not only had representative examples of kydex gear but they custom made stuff at the range! Pretty f'ing cool! I purchased a Glock 19 holster and had them make up a custom mag carrier for a 5.56mm Bulgarian AK magazine... turned out great.

EricL deserves a permanent head-of-the-line pass from them for his future dealings.

This is some great gear. I tried out my IWB holster for the MP45 w/ TLR-1 and it fit great. I was skeptical that it wouldn't be more comfortable than my CTAC but the holster is barely noticable to me while I'm wearing it. An added plus is the fact that I can run a MP9 or 40 in the holster with the light attached if I want to.

Sam

11-13-07, 17:36

All great reviews.

Another plug for Raven Concealment Systems. I bought a holster for a 1911 from them just before they took off for this class. I've been wearing it a lot, I set it up with the belt loops for IWB configuration and it is very thin and comfortable.

Jay Cunningham

11-13-07, 17:48

My question is: What's was the proper safety operation per LAV? Keep it off for the duration of the drill?

I will tell you how I interpreted it and implemented it:

Like LAV says, engage quickly, disengage slowly. At low ready I am looking over my carbine with the muzzle pointed at the threat's feet or thereabouts. As the carbine is coming up the safety comes off. After engagement I assess with my finger straight, safety off. When I am satisfied that there are no additional threats I return to low ready and only then engage my mechanical safety.

If I am licking the windows on this one, please let me know.

Stretz Tactical Inc

11-13-07, 18:08

What was the comparison between LWRC and the 416? Does he like it? I know LWRC is producing a CSAT carbine for Paul Howe and Paul is from the same background as LAV.

Heavy Metal

11-13-07, 18:21

had them make up a custom mag carrier for a 5.56mm Bulgarian AK magazine... turned out great.

I think I need one of these each in all three AK calibers.

TOrrock

11-13-07, 18:23

What was the comparison between LWRC and the 416? Does he like it? I know LWRC is producing a CSAT carbine for Paul Howe and Paul is from the same background as LAV.

"If I couldn't get my hands on a HK416, then I'd go with the Leitner-Wise."

He stated that several times, that the LW was still not in the same league with the 416.

The LW was developed from the standpoint of a modification to an existing barrelled receiver, basically a modified AR-18 gas system, while the 416 was a new system.

LW --> developed with a limited budget.

416 --> developed with an almost unlimited budget from a major firearms manufacturer with years and years of experience.

He also stated unless you're running a carbine with a barrel less than 14.5", or running a suppressor, you're better off with a Colt 6920 and not screwing with it.

abnartyguy

11-13-07, 20:36

Gent's,
I don't know, but this was THE best HAC/LAV class i've been to! For all the guys i meet in this one, wow, nice to meet and drink too much with you all, lol.

Day 1, Did anyone else like my Comp as much as I did during the night fire, lol. "God i'm blind, please don't shoot back while i'm getting my night vision back!":eek:

Day 2, the house rocked! Clearing a shoot house with a German Swat cop with an MP5 is a story i'll tell for awhile(good thing i had 1911). Oh and can't say Larry called it "early" when i swear it was down to freezing and we had already done the most "demanding" part of clearing the house. Hey, and didn't Larry bet someone his truck that i had set up the targets???:confused: So who won it? Night 2, Geeze, did the Holiday Inn guys really have it in for us, I've never been kicked out of a bar without having broken something! :D

Day 3, Well the good part about the Surefire Comp on my LW upper was that I smoked the small group competitions three in a row! Granted i sucked on the whole class carbine competition. But, i would like to make a small note that 3 of the four guys that placed highest in the class pistol competition were shooting 1911's (including my Wilson CQB). Thanks HAC for the Grips, i'm putting them on right now, later!
-Zef M.:cool:

John_Wayne777

11-13-07, 20:38

I will tell you how I interpreted it and implemented it:

Like LAV says, engage quickly, disengage slowly. At low ready I am looking over my carbine with the muzzle pointed at the threat's feet or thereabouts. As the carbine is coming up the safety comes off. After engagement I assess with my finger straight, safety off. When I am satisfied that there are no additional threats I return to low ready and only then engage my mechanical safety.

If I am licking the windows on this one, please let me know.

You're not...that's the right way to go.

Quick to get the weapon into fighting mode....excruciatingly slow to get it out of fighting mode.

The concept of flipping the safety back on immediately after a shot is more range practice than reality.

If I know I am going to be engaging targets, I keep the safety off. I put the safety back on when in my head I can say "all clear" and I know there are no more threats to be dealt with in the immediate future.

I will also re-engage the safety if I am going to be moving and not shooting on the move in case I trip or get stupid.

ErikL

11-13-07, 21:06

My last update of the class, i should have waited and done it all at once.

- A good flash suppressor will only hide the flash from crappy ammo to a certian extent. I have a Vortex on my 14.5 barrel gun, shooting Wolf ammo the flash was very evident to me. Sparks were flying everywhere, it was enough for Larry to comment on it. On the flip side the .45acp 230gr wolf out of my 5" gun the flash was much less then the most common commercial training rounds. Some of the "better" ammo such as black hills reloaded 5.56 was high flash as well. Need to find the flash hider/ ammo combo that works nothing is for certain.

- Freddie Blish the Military Rep from Aim Point brought stuff to try for any one that wanted. I already own both a M2 and M3 i was already hooked on them. I had been skeptical on the Micro's because i thought the small tube diameter would cause you to see walls of the tube. I played with them on a couple different weapon systems and think they are the ticket for a SBR's. They are light and unobtrusive, and as a right hand shooter i didn't pick up the outside of scope with my left eye. I will be buying one here shortly, unless i can pick one up somewhere else...Freddie when is your next demo?

- Raven concealment, thanks for showing up guys. Their stuff is shit hot, the molding is the best out of any thing else I own. It sits tight to your body, the butt is sucked in close. Its good solid snag free gear.

-Crimson Trace If you read this can you add some texture to your grips? Great product but seriously I shouldn't have to mod them so i can get a good solid grip on the pistol. How about some 5 LPI checkering molded in, or the Gunner grip texture.

RD62

11-13-07, 21:51

JOhn Wayne 777,

What combo of ammo/muzzle device had the flash problems you reported?

I just switched my .45ACP loads from 230gr +p Golden Sabers to 230gr +p Federal HST's. In shooting to test the HST's for reliable function I noticed they had a pretty low flash, especially as opposed to the GS's fire ball!

-RD62

FJB

11-14-07, 06:05

Great posts thus far and not much more for me to add. This was my forth time training with Larry and first time with Ken. I intend to train with both again and a 1911 Operators class with Ken has been on my short list for some time. They are both simply great instructors and great people.

It was finally great to not only meet but train with and even drink more than a few "barley sodas" on the Marine Corps Birthday and Veteran's/Remembrance Day with Kevin, John, Eric, Grant, Tim, and every one else.

The Tritium on my front sight (early Kimber Warrior with real Novak's) had failed prior to the class and due to a heavy travel schedule I had failed to get it replaced, thus putting me at a disadvantage with my "Polish night sight" set up. Ie. instead of a working Tritium front sight and no/dimmed rear Tritium sights, I had the opposite. Not conducive to accurate shooting at night with out a light. Especially when it is "darker than the inside of a goat's arse" as Akmed the interpeter liked to say. However, my Surefire X200 with DG-18 switch worked well for me. NDs with white light is solved like many other problems...training. Not saying there weren't times that I "prematurely illuminated" (its a male thing), but it is largely reduced through training.

CT Laser grips are the heat and I have a set, but failed to install or even bring them with me. I had actually bought them for a Colt Commander that I am building for a carry gun and foolishly forgot to bring them for the class on my Warrior. However, I have to agree with others that CT needs to make some grips with Strider/Simmonich Gunner Grips.

I have been through or taught numerous carbine classes (well over a dozen) over the last four years and have yet to see an Aimpoint fail. I don't say that because I work them, as I have only worked for them for about eight months, but because that is the truth. However, this class started with two Aimpoint sights one CompM2 and one CompML2 that seem to have faulty switches. Both were being used on AKs with Ultimak rails and Springfield Armory Scout Mounts. As both are a few years old, although not used much prior to the class, I think it more of coincidence than a gun/rail issue. We are going to take care of the owners accordingly, but more importantly determine the cause for failure. There might have been a bad solder job on the circuit. Anything made by man can fail. Aimpoint tries its best to keep that failure rate to an absolute minimum as lives count upon it. As an example of the 300,000 CompM2s in use by the Army we see less than 500 per year return for repair. Again, mostly switches. However, this is why BUIS are still essential.

That all said the CompM4 and Micro T-1 are extremely rugged and if I were looking for a new optic either would be my first choice depending upon my mission requirements. The Micro is a great little optic and ideal for SBRs. I will be calling Mark LaRue about building an intermediate riser for the HK416. I have posted previously that the Micro in a LaRue short mount will co-witness with HK416 sights. My bad as I stated this based on my placing them solely on 10.5" upper not attached to a lower and it appeared it would. However, with the upper placed on a lower that is not the case. You can still use the Micro in a short mount on an HK416, but they are about a 1/4" to 3/8" to low thus preventing co-witnessing.

I've been running the CompM4B with Aimpoint Cantilever Spacer and new QLP (Quick Lever Picatinny) now for two LAV classes (700 rnds and 400 rnds) and a Jeff Gonzales class (2300 rnds...3400+ rnds total) has made me a firm believer in this optic and mount. The battery box at the 5 0'clock position really lowers the profile. I am still fond of my range demo CompM4 with either QRPII or LaRue 1.535 mount as I have beaten the snot out of it and ran it through two of Pat Roger's class (1000 rnds and 1500 rnds) and performed several hundred "throw it across the range back and forth then shoot same POA/POI" demos. I will still purchase and keep that CompM4 range demo for sentiment, but I intend to also own a CompM4B for personal use, as well as several Micro T-1s (shotguns and for SBRs).

Yes I did seem to "buy out" Raven Concealment, but they had some holster and mag pouch configurations that I have been looking for in stock or with quick delivery and I really like their quick belt attachment systems. My MP45 and MP9 will be put to great use now. I like what I see thus far and hope to report back favorably after some use.

KevinB and BigRed,
Let me know which Vickers Pistol class you'll be attending and maybe I can make it as well, 'eh'. Thoroughly enjoyed training and drinking with you and hope to do so in the future.

EricL,
I didn't notice you hugging Grant, but maybe it was because he is a former Squid that he mean't to say that he hoped you would hug him 3 times as he loves Marines. Of course even if you "don't tell" nothing compares to Andy licking the top of his nose with his tongue. "That is as wrong as two boys....."

S/F

John_Wayne777

11-14-07, 07:47

What combo of ammo/muzzle device had the flash problems you reported?

I have a permanently affixed Wilson compensator that looks like an A2 bird-cage. It does pretty well with hiding the flash overall...but occasionally the PMC 55 grain ammo I was shooting (I was using a combo of PMC and XM193 ammo...) would put out a flashbulb fireball.

I just switched my .45ACP loads from 230gr +p Golden Sabers to 230gr +p Federal HST's. In shooting to test the HST's for reliable function I noticed they had a pretty low flash, especially as opposed to the GS's fire ball!

Yup....Ken demoed several different types of ammo and for handguns the Golden Saber was by far the worst muzzle flash.

John_Wayne777

11-14-07, 08:03

I have 3 stories of my own:
1. I was eating some #1 breakfast in a local McDonalds on Sun, and these 3 characters come in and walk straight at me. I greet them, here's what they do:
- Ken smiles, says "Heeey, look who's here (slaps my shoulder) eating the good American food!"
- LAV says "Makes you Fat!" with a very serious look.
- Frank from Frankfurt just looks thru me and says nothing.
Did this story capture their personalities correctly?

Frank didn't say much the entire course. He just shot, occasionally smiled and drank ballistol.

Europeans.....go figure.

John_Wayne777

11-14-07, 08:08

One other thing that might prove useful:

If you have a weapon light that sticks out past the muzzle of your weapon (such as the X200 when mounted on an M&P) try using Meguiar's NXT car wax on the lens of your light:

http://www.autobarndeals.com/catalog/MEGG-12718.gif

After about 400 rounds my X200 ends up looking like this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0161.jpg

The carbon welds to the lens almost instantly and it is a bitch on stilts to get off of there. Knowing this, I waxed my X200's lens and the carbon wiped right off last night with absolutely no fuss.

The NXT wax dries clear and leaves the lens slicker than owl snot meaning that nasty carbon buildup has a hard time sticking to the surface of the light.

I've found the NXT wax has a lot of handy uses with firearms.

KevinB

11-14-07, 08:11

FJB -- IM inbound. I also emailed LT to hint for a med./Hk416 Micro mount.
Also the other stuff.

In Frank's honor I had a reunification ceremony with my 416's and my AG/C - its sitting under the 14.5 and ShortDot.

Of course no class review would be complete without mentioning poor Frank's mini meltdown on day three -- when ErikL caught him with his 6004 hood undone - we razzed him abotu cheating and BigRed without missing a beat says "well he needs to win to make up for losing WWII" Frank then gets rattled and throws some poor rounds on the "El Presidente"

TOrrock

11-14-07, 08:18

FJB

11-14-07, 08:37

Bigred's comment was classic and needs to be immortalized. I am glad I wasn't taking a drink of water at the time or I would have drowned.

S/F

NCPatrolAR

11-14-07, 08:47

One other thing that might prove useful:

If you have a weapon light that sticks out past the muzzle of your weapon (such as the X200 when mounted on an M&P) try using Meguiar's NXT car wax on the lens of your light:

The carbon welds to the lens almost instantly and it is a bitch on stilts to get off of there. Knowing this, I waxed my X200's lens and the carbon wiped right off last night with absolutely no fuss.

.

Carbon build-up was something I always dealt with when using the X200 and pistols like the G19. Coming into the class, I figured I'd have the same problem with the MP9 and TLR-1. I was surprised to see it wasnt an issue. The only place where carbon was built up was on the top of the light.

tacmedic425

11-14-07, 10:33

I dont think the KX3 was as bad as Zef's Surefire muzzle break. That thing was punishing, but he had some serious split times.

yeah quick split times, but he also had about a 2 pound trigger pull! I don't think the muzzle brake had much to do with it...

Stretz Tactical Inc

11-14-07, 18:57

Leviathan

11-14-07, 19:14

Yep, I had a Glock 22 with a X200 that ended up being about as good as a rock in the end. I have not had much of an issue up to this point with it, but when Ken H hands you his gun and says move on....you know you have an issue. The few issues that I have had in the past I have attributed to ammo, but I ran fairly decent stuff this weekend. LAV did comment that the Glock 17 (and the 9mm variants) is the only way to go IF you are going to buy a Glock.

The main issue I had was feed related and ejection issues. I had 4-6 stove pipes and the rest were ammo stoppages. KevinB mentioned that Glock has addressed the issue, but I am drawing a blank on the fix. KevinB input would be gladly appreciated, maybe even part numbers. :D

Hey guys I'm in a armorer class this week with a couple of guys from a nieghboring agency who have glock model 22's that have been having malfunction's w/the surefire x220's attached. All 8 of their swat guys have the lights on their guns and all guns function w/o the light and all malfunction w/the light - Glock told the to change to the new mag springs, but they already had them, changed them any way - still malf. They sent them to the factory and they said it only happened once at the factory and sent the guns back to them. So they ditched the lights. Any of you have a problem w/glock and a weapon mounted light?

Jay Cunningham

11-14-07, 19:28

Sam

11-14-07, 20:03

Jay Cunningham

11-14-07, 20:14

I hear that Remington UMC 115gr. 9mm is notoriously weak (even for a 9), a friend said he chronoed some and they were slower than Winchester white box and CCI Blazer.
Remington UMC won't run in my 1911, but will run in my Glock, M&P and Berettas.

I figured as much. I have run nearly 1,000 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P (you know that ain't weak) to make sure my gun liked my choice of carry ammo - no issues with that, obviously.

I also suspect lower pressures with the 55 gr. AE I was shooting in my 12.5" barrel AK - I think mil-spec ammo will eliminate any minor cycling issues.

FJB

11-14-07, 20:33

Hey guys I'm in a armorer class this week with a couple of guys from a nieghboring agency who have glock model 22's that have been having malfunction's w/the surefire x220's attached. All 8 of their swat guys have the lights on their guns and all guns function w/o the light and all malfunction w/the light - Glock told the to change to the new mag springs, but they already had them, changed them any way - still malf. They sent them to the factory and they said it only happened once at the factory and sent the guns back to them. So they ditched the lights. Any of you have a problem w/glock and a weapon mounted light?

When I went through the Glock Armorer/Instructor Workshop Course a year ago, our instructor Dennis Tueller of Tueller Drill fame, stated that the reason that Glock came out with their own light was that the polymer Glock frames weren't flexing properly with the aluminum housing mounted lights like the X200 and TLR. Not sure if the M3 lights with their polymer housing causes this same problem.

S/F

Jay Cunningham

11-14-07, 20:37

Interesting info - thanks for the heads-up Freddie.

John_Wayne777

11-14-07, 22:00

Since we're on the topic, I had a couple of malfunctions with my Glock 19. I have never run Remington UMC 115 gr. through it before this class, and I've never had a malf (about 3500 rounds total) until now.

Just think, I got my AK and my Glock to both malfunction this class - oh noes!!111!

I was running Remington UMC 115 grain in my 9mms during the course. It's definitely weaker than other stuff. I had a failure to go into battery with my M&P and even a dud round in my 92fs. Recoil was noticeably mild.

It's dirty as hell too.

Joe R.

11-14-07, 22:57

KCS. this is a known issue with the .40 caliber Glocks especially. Take the lights off and they will run fairly well, with the added weight of the light and the reduction in frame flex they tend to choke and puke on a regular basis.

KevinB

11-14-07, 23:15

Two 1200 man dept's that I know in Canada had issues with the lights on the G22's. Glock initialy did a Hk and simply said they needed new guns - then new mags... One dept's Tac team then went to Sig P226R's (in .40) and was urging the rest of the dept to dump Glock -- Glock turned around and replaced all the dept's guns for free.
From two Glock armorers on those dept's the issue is less with frame flex -- but the springs and followers when used with certain ammo. Glock however seem to have inherited the teutonic arogance and refuses to admit their are potentail problems with this aspect -- which IMHO is endangering officer safety.
(end of Kev's rant on that issue)

I've never had a hickup with my G19 and X200 combo -- but this course had BigRed and several others with G19 and lights having more issues than I have ever seen with Glocks before in my life -- and the roudn count on this course was not large...

FJB

11-16-07, 07:59

FYI. Today is International Disadvantaged People' Day. Please send an encouraging message to a retarded friend or in this case friends... Just as I've done. I don't care if you lick windows, take the short bus, screw farm animals, or occasionally shit on yourself...You hang in there. You're special!

S/F

C4IGrant

11-16-07, 08:04

FJB

11-16-07, 08:13

So which one of the Canadians did you send an e-mail too?? :D

C4

To KevinB.... as his was the only one that I had!

S/F

SHIVAN

11-16-07, 10:35

In my instruction book for the X300, it warned to check the weaponlight on your Glock....

Apparently Surefire has taken the stories seriously.

C4IGrant

11-16-07, 17:29

I almost forgot to thank Templar for not shooting me at the class (as he was my wing man in the shoot house). It is much appreciated my friend. :D

C4

John_Wayne777

11-16-07, 17:36

I've never had a hickup with my G19 and X200 combo -- but this course had BigRed and several others with G19 and lights having more issues than I have ever seen with Glocks before in my life -- and the roudn count on this course was not large...

...and for the record, the M&Ps with X200s and X300s mounted on them didn't have a moment's trouble.

Maybe that's why Ken called them the pistol of the future.....:D

Sam

11-17-07, 08:06

- Raven concealment, thanks for showing up guys. Their stuff is shit hot, the molding is the best out of any thing else I own. It sits tight to your body, the butt is sucked in close. Its good solid snag free gear.

Here is my quick review of the holster and a couple of pics.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=95619#post95619

FJB

11-17-07, 18:02

...and for the record, the M&Ps with X200s and X300s mounted on them didn't have a moment's trouble.

Maybe that's why Ken called them the pistol of the future.....:D

That is because the M&Ps have a steel chassis with polymer modeled around it thus the frames don't flex like a Glock. I haven't tried my Glock 19 with an X200 or TLR, only with an M3. I'll have to compare all three lights with my M&P 9mm and my Glock 19 for reliability. Nothing like a good reason to shoot.

S/F

BigRed

11-18-07, 22:43

To KevinB.... as his was the only one that I had!

S/F

Ahhh, I'm feeling left out.

CarlosDJackal

11-19-07, 06:53

No, but he did get take a knee at one point and pray to "dear, sweet Jesus up above..."

Too much window licking? :p

John_Wayne777

11-19-07, 07:47

Too much window licking? :p

Yup.

Someone asked advice about what they should buy for a carbine to use for serious social purposes.

The essence of the answer was "Buy a Colt and don't f**k with it. Don't mess with the engine of the gun, the stuff that makes it work."

Then questions were asked about titanium firing pins and various other additives...and all this after Mr. Vickers had already said that 90% of the AR stuff on the market was absolute manure. (He used slightly more colorful language...)

After a series of questions like that Mr. Vickers was driven to making appeals to our Savior for relief.

abnartyguy

11-19-07, 20:25

Then questions were asked about titanium firing pins and various other additives...and all this after Mr. Vickers had already said that 90% of the AR stuff on the market was absolute manure. (He used slightly more colorful language...)

After a series of questions like that Mr. Vickers was driven to making appeals to our Savior for relief.
John_Wayne777

Yeah, but most of the dumb questions were just to mess with Frank the UN guy, lol. Day three we got on the German's nerves so much he kept telling us he was caressing his trigger, lol.
-Zef:cool:

John_Wayne777

11-20-07, 07:32

Yeah, but most of the dumb questions were just to mess with Frank the UN guy, lol. Day three we got on the German's nerves so much he kept telling us he was caressing his trigger, lol.
-Zef:cool:

Or it could have been all that Ballistol he was drinking.

[Hank Hill]
That boy ain't right.
[/Hank Hill]

Matt Edwards

11-20-07, 11:31

I've read alot about what worked and what did not. Would any of you care to mention what Larry and Ken were running?

Matt

John_Wayne777

11-20-07, 11:52

I've read alot about what worked and what did not. Would any of you care to mention what Larry and Ken were running?

Matt

Larry ran his 416 with an aimpoint and a Surefire G2 mounted on it as well as a *yuk!!* Glock of some sort.

Ken was running a 1911 one day, and then an M&P in .45 the other days.

Joe R.

11-20-07, 21:55

Actually Ken ran the gamut; a M&P 9 on the first day, Springfield Operator on day 2 and an M&P 45 on day three. Both M&Ps had Crimson Trace grips installed I don't recall for sure if the operator did but I'd bet my next check on it.

As stated Larry had his 416 (14 1/5" variant) w/Aimpoint and a Glock 19.

Matt Edwards

11-20-07, 23:48

Thanks guys.
Hey big Joe.

DocGKR

11-22-07, 21:39

At first I thought lasers on pistols were a gimmick, but after using them the last several years I became a convert, especially on BUG’s and at night.

After trying several options, the CTC Lasergrips appeared to be the best choice—over the last few years, I have personally purchased nearly a dozen sets of Lasergrips.

Without doubt, Lasergrips should be mandatory for all J-frames.

However, Lasergrips on service pistols are not without problems.

About 2 years ago, we first got the CTC LG617 grips for our G17’s-I personally purchased 3 pairs. As I outlined previously, we initially loved them, but the inability to turn the laser off became a vexing issue during routine gun handling, training, and especially when searching. The ability to turn the laser off and on is an IMPORTANT factor with service pistols (less so for off-duty CCW, and not an issue with BUG's). As a result, I’ve taken the Lasergrips off all my G17’s intended for duty use. Despite numerous complaints, the management at CTC has failed to adequately address this issue with the Glock Lasergrips intended for LE and military use.

Lasergrips for 1911's do have an ON-OFF switch, however, for folks with larger hands, when wearing gloves, the fabric frequently obscures the light beam from the Lasergrips—numerous AAR’s coming in from combat zones have been sent to CTC complaining of this issue and the need for a re-design, but the owners at CTC don’t seem to care about input from their military end-users on this and several other problems. In addition, the LG401 Lasergrips are simply not lasting—I need several spare Lasergrips just to keep at least two pistols (training and duty) functioning with lasers, as they keep failing at inopportune times and at relatively low round counts.

I hope the owners of CTC will finally see the light and start listening to their LE and military customers…

VA_Dinger

11-23-07, 13:55

I just sent out the Vickers Tactical / Backyard Outfitters / Woolrich Elite special offer order forms to every student in the class. If you took this class and did not receive it please let me know.

Thank you.

BigRed

12-27-07, 02:45

Did anyone else not recieve their items from Raven?

Neither my nor Kevin's holsters and pouches have arrived here yet and all my emails to Raven have gone unanswered.

Jay Cunningham

12-27-07, 03:11

I bought my holster directly from them that day, but I have tried to contact them several times since and I haven't gotten a reply either.

:confused:

stony275

12-27-07, 05:33

I happen to know them, I will call and give them the heads up on this issue.

Typically, not only do they have the item in the mail, but to the customer within five days of the order.

If you want to send an e-mail or PM to me with your name and what you ordered, it will be easier than me using your screen name on this forum.

FWIW, I've been here in Iraq on my third year doing PSD work since early October and I use the Phantom and double mag pouch for my Glock 19 when I am going low profile. It conceals very well and is very comfortable.

tacmedic425

12-27-07, 11:59

Did anyone else not recieve their items from Raven?

Neither my nor Kevin's holsters and pouches have arrived here yet and all my emails to Raven have gone unanswered.

I got my stuff in fairly short order by post.

Jay Cunningham

06-19-08, 06:50

sorry - please delete