View Full Version : Vltor A5 System
No Bananas
09-17-11, 22:05
Used to have an H Buffer in my 12.5" SBR. Had a new 12.5" upper built by ADCO, and installed a Vltor A5 buffer system. Came with standard A5 buffer. My understanding is that it's 5.3 ounces. Fail zero auto BCG, Fail Zero upper, Centurion Arms 12.5" light barrel.
I've put about 300 rounds through it. A wide variety of rounds and no malfunctions. However, I've shot a lot of XM193F throughitlately. Lots of it around and it's cheap. It ejects at 1-2 o'clock. I expected the A5 through them out at 3 o'clock or so. My H buffer had practically the same ejection pattern. I wonder, a little bit, what I got the A5 for.
PMC .223, Honrady .223 match, and Hornady TAP .223 are all about 4 o'clock, 5.56mm ammo (Q3131A1 & SSA) are 2 to 3 o'clock. Most at 3. I know that the XM139F is supposed to be really hot so maybe it's no thing. Like I said,no malfuctions and I've done some rapid fire.
BYW: Have the vittono-ring in, BCM extractor spring, and CS ejector spring.
Any thoughts?
An Undocumented Worker
09-17-11, 22:22
Did the A5 slow the cyclic rate down for you compared to the H buffer?
Does the A5 feel any better compared to the H buffer?
If the answer to both questions is yes, I wouldn't worry about it.
You may also try removing the extractor O-Ring and see what difference that makes.
Failure2Stop
09-17-11, 23:31
Ejection pattern is not worth your time, as long as it is functioning properly, and the A5 system isn't just about the weight of the buffer, but the spring as well.
So if ejection pattern is a red herring, what is important?
What does your dot bounce look like?
What does recoil feel like?
That's where the system really pays.
When I tried out my first A5 I felt like I put on a decent brake as far as direct to rear recoil was concerned.
ETA: You can pop that O ring out and set it aside in case of emergency.
BufordTJustice
09-17-11, 23:34
Maybe look at the heavier A5 buffers (H3/H4 if i remember)?
F2S makes very valid points. Too many people are getting wrapped up in shit like ejection patterns. I can tell the difference when I went from an H3/ Springco spring to the A5.
Everyone who shot my set up and then shot it with the A5 said the same thing.
Ejection pattern is not worth your time, as long as it is functioning properly, and the A5 system isn't just about the weight of the buffer, but the spring as well.
So if ejection pattern is a red herring, what is important?
What does your dot bounce look like?
What does recoil feel like?
That's where the system really pays.
When I tried out my first A5 I felt like I put on a decent brake as far as direct to rear recoil was concerned.
ETA: You can pop that O ring out and set it aside in case of emergency.
Ejection pattern is not worth your time, as long as it is functioning properly, and the A5 system isn't just about the weight of the buffer, but the spring as well.
So if ejection pattern is a red herring, what is important?
What does your dot bounce look like?
What does recoil feel like?
That's where the system really pays.
When I tried out my first A5 I felt like I put on a decent brake as far as direct to rear recoil was concerned.
I agree. I'm not sure where the "ejection pattern means something" rumor got started, but too many people pay too much attention to where their brass is falling and less attention to more important things.
When I used the A5, it was great. I only went away from it because I now use a UBR on my AR. If I were to build another AR, it will get an A5.
BufordTJustice
09-18-11, 01:51
F2S and IG, I agree completely.
I should clarify that I tune my guns based on feel once reliable operation has been established. The point is not go have 'perfect ejection'....as we saw that the BCG's rearward speed varies greatly using cheaper buffer springs (basically, non CS buffer springs) per the write-up by Andrew over at Vuurwapen Blog.
If you gun runs perfectly with an H2 buffer and a std strength spring...rock on. If you need to go to an A5-H4 to get that smooth shooting setup, then do it.
I personally have found that the distance of ejected cases is a much more reliable indicator of reliability than the angle of ejection in AR's. The guns I have issues with are always the ones that either fling the brass into the next county or have it dribbling off my knuckles (there's a lot more of the former than the latter).
I have several buddies who's guns run perfectly, despite NONE of them having a similar ejection angle. They are mostly Colt 6920's. Same buffers (H buffers) and Brownells CS buffer springs with roughly the same round count. Some throw it at 5, others at 1, and the rest in between. All 100% reliable.
I agree. I'm not sure where the "ejection pattern means something" rumor got started, but too many people pay too much attention to where their brass is falling and less attention to more important things.
Some Douche Nozzle made an MS paint chart showing the clock and where ejection patterns "should" be. I hope to find that idiot some day and punch him in the balls.
If you don't mind, then, what should one look for regarding ejection?
Rather than direction... just good positive ejection. And how the gun recoils compared to other ARs.
Ejection direction CAN be a part of the equation.... but too many guys start installing shit they don't need based on direction alone.... brass ejection at 2 o'clock or some such.
From what I understand, the ejection chart is used for setting up finely tuned competition rifles and has little to do with fighting carbines
From what I understand, the ejection chart is used for setting up finely tuned competition rifles and has little to do with fighting carbines
The chart I've seen posted is anything but professional enough to set up a finely tuned anything. :rolleyes:
Magic_Salad0892
09-19-11, 13:36
Some Douche Nozzle made an MS paint chart showing the clock and where ejection patterns "should" be. I hope to find that idiot some day and punch him in the balls.
I love this quote so much.
Some Douche Nozzle made an MS paint chart showing the clock and where ejection patterns "should" be. I hope to find that idiot some day and punch him in the balls.
That could certainly alter his ejection pattern.
Ha ha... yeah it would. ;)
I'm looking to put an A5 with standard buffer in my Noveske Light Recce (midlength gas, 16 inch barrel). I'm shooting PMC Bronze. I see a lot of info on other rifles with carbine gas systems, or info on 14.5 midlengths, but I've been looking for A5 experience on my particular setup. I'm certainly not averse to experimenting with buffers but I have a course coming up and don't have a lot of time to tinker beforehand. I can wait til after the course, but if experience indicates that it's a reliable drop-in, I'd go ahead. The rifle functions perfectly as is, although I confess I'm not sure where the shells eject to. ;)
Any experience? A5 on 16 inch midlength with relatively low-power ammo, Noveske gas port?
Any experience? A5 on 16 inch midlength with relatively low-power ammo, Noveske gas port?
I recently installed an A5 on my BCM 16" midlength, and I've shot everything from M193 and M855, to Remington and Federal 223 loads, down to my handloads, some of which are really low-powered, and I haven't had any issues reliability wise; such as short stroking or a sluggish BCG.
That could certainly alter his ejection pattern.
Ha!
Any experience? A5 on 16 inch midlength with relatively low-power ammo, Noveske gas port?
Yes to everything but the Noveske gas port. DD 16" midlength cycled just fine on everything with the A5.
I emailed Noveske, they responded promptly and reassured me that all Noveske uppers are designed to work with rifle stocked lowers including the A5.
So, I just installed a standard A5 in my Noveske Light Recce...straightforward RE install as expected. The Hammerhead wrench is a great tool - broke that Noveske 2-point staking no problem and I was interested to see that the staking dimples lined back up on the notches on re-tightening the castle nut. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that, but I was. I'm a little inhibited about going out to shoot it since bow season is open, gonna wait until I can get to the range.
As expected from a longer RE, a standard VLTOR iMod on the A5 doesn't close all the way to the endplate, which is no big deal since I never shoot it with that short a length of pull anyway. Like all the VLTOR receiver extensions, the A5 extension has numbers on the top that indicate stock position through the little window on top of the iMod. Silly little thing, I suppose, but I like that.
I emailed Noveske, they responded promptly and reassured me that all Noveske uppers are designed to work with rifle stocked lowers including the A5.
So, I just installed a standard A5 in my Noveske Light Recce...straightforward RE install as expected. The Hammerhead wrench is a great tool - broke that Noveske 2-point staking no problem and I was interested to see that the staking dimples lined back up on the notches on re-tightening the castle nut. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that, but I was. I'm a little inhibited about going out to shoot it since bow season is open, gonna wait until I can get to the range.
As expected from a longer RE, a standard VLTOR iMod on the A5 doesn't close all the way to the endplate, which is no big deal since I never shoot it with that short a length of pull anyway. Like all the VLTOR receiver extensions, the A5 extension has numbers on the top that indicate stock position through the little window on top of the iMod. Silly little thing, I suppose, but I like that.
Please update with a range report. I am currently building a Noveske RECCE with midlength gas and am considering an A5 on it as well.
Please update with a range report. I am currently building a Noveske RECCE with midlength gas and am considering an A5 on it as well.
That rifle now has about 3000 rounds through it since I put the A5 on it, including a 3-day 2000-round carbine course which I finished last Thursday. Not a single malfunction of any kind. Recoil impulse was reduced, and in conjunction with the BattleComp I have on that rifle ease of maintaining the target was definitely enhanced for me.
Quick question: How long (actually, how short) is your 12.5" SBR with the Vltor A5 closed as far as it can get? :D
30.5" OAL with it closed and 34.25" with it completely extended
30.5" OAL with it closed and 34.25" with it completely extended
Thanks!
Thanks!
No prob. To clarify, that's with the emod stock. Balances perfectly (no can, FSB, and A2.
That rifle now has about 3000 rounds through it since I put the A5 on it, including a 3-day 2000-round carbine course which I finished last Thursday. Not a single malfunction of any kind. Recoil impulse was reduced, and in conjunction with the BattleComp I have on that rifle ease of maintaining the target was definitely enhanced for me.
Same experience with my 16" Noveske light recce upper; no issues with the A5, with all sorts of ammo, including PMC, Privi, Fiocchi, UMC, and Federal XM193. Probably a couple of hundred rounds of each.
Mark
No Bananas
10-10-11, 14:17
One other question. I'm certain that both the A5 Tube and my CTR are both mil-spec. There's a lot of play with the CTR and it won't lock tight like it does on my other standard mil-spec tubes. ??????
I had a CTR on my A5, and the fit was the same as on a standard Vltor RE and a CMT RE.
Have you tried another buttstock?
Not CTR, but running an ACS, and fit is pretty tight. Just a hair of rocking. Not enough to be of any significance.
As said, would try another butt stock to see if the issue is caused by stock or RE.
MP
One other question. I'm certain that both the A5 Tube and my CTR are both mil-spec. There's a lot of play with the CTR and it won't lock tight like it does on my other standard mil-spec tubes. ??????
Take the lock-lever out and squeeze the metal 'grabber' down a tad with a pair of pliers. Should take the play right out of it.
That rifle now has about 3000 rounds through it since I put the A5 on it, including a 3-day 2000-round carbine course which I finished last Thursday. Not a single malfunction of any kind. Recoil impulse was reduced, and in conjunction with the BattleComp I have on that rifle ease of maintaining the target was definitely enhanced for me.
Hmac,
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks a bunch for the range report. Sounds like this will be the route I go for my Recce.
Just adding this to the thread to show that even with Brown Bear, the A5 functioned in my 16" mid. (BCM). I added a SF break to it to just see how controllable I can get it. Pretty crazy, all my hits were in the 6 inch bulls. I also ran the BSA with PMC, Aguilla, and some IMI m855, no problems either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV8_GEeF1vs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I am set on getting the A5 system for an AR based around a 16-inch mid-length barrel. I know the standard buffer and spring will work very well. Has anyone experimented with the slightly lighter A5H1 4.5oz buffer with an extra power action spring such as from JP Rifles or Springco? I'm thinking a little less reciprocating weight. It may not even be noticeable. Just curious to see if anyone has experimented with this. Thank you.
Has anyone experimented with the slightly lighter A5H1 4.5oz buffer with an extra power action spring such as from JP Rifles or Springco?
I would never put one of those monkey ass springs in my gun. :stop:
I wouldn't mess with it.
The system works very well as is.
vicious_cb
08-13-12, 16:14
I am set on getting the A5 system for an AR based around a 16-inch mid-length barrel. I know the standard buffer and spring will work very well. Has anyone experimented with the slightly lighter A5H1 4.5oz buffer with an extra power action spring such as from JP Rifles or Springco? I'm thinking a little less reciprocating weight. It may not even be noticeable. Just curious to see if anyone has experimented with this. Thank you.
The A5 works fine with the regular buffer and a springco green on a 16" middy. Lighter than normal buffers might be needed when using a 14.5" middy.
ClearedHot
08-13-12, 19:05
Not sure if this has been asked yet, but is there a way to adapt the A5 system to a pistol lower?
mallowpufft
08-13-12, 19:10
Not sure if this has been asked yet, but is there a way to adapt the A5 system to a pistol lower?
Considering there is no difference between a pistol and a rifle lower I would take a guess that it will work fine. Probably wouldn't hurt to make the RE so it won't accept a stock. And you'll have a long RE on a pistol...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2
ClearedHot
08-13-12, 19:23
Considering there is no difference between a pistol and a rifle lower I would take a guess that it will work fine. Probably wouldn't hurt to make the RE so it won't accept a stock. And you'll have a long RE on a pistol...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2
Sorry for not making it clear in my earlier post, but that's what I meant to ask. What would be the best way to modify the A5 receiver extension so that it won't accept a stock?
not to derail,
but I just do not even start to comprehend the notion that ejection pattern doesn't matter. I agree that there is variance in a few shots,particularly the first few, but their mean location once everything is relatively steady state is certainly the most important attribute that an observer can determine the health of the system running. Particularly in this conversation of buffers and springs, If you are purely changing buffers and springs I don't even look at much else,
It should go like Carbine=forward around 2 o'clock with your mid range ammo, if you're ejecting 2 o'clock and bouncing off your handguard with Wolf, and you don't have the sense that the true hot ammo is going to stovepipe on you then fine.
If your gun is doing that with wolf you go heavier in buffer to move the ejection mean location to around 3-4 to be safe.
Same with the rear at say 5 o'clock, if you're doing that with a H3 setup and your hot ammo, you are floating on the edge of problems.
Solve it by a lighter buffer and your ammo ejection pattern will move forward.
Full mags add more force so take that into acct particularly if you're on the rear side of ejecting because any additional drag on the BCG might even further put you onto problems.
I have a great video of this, I'll dig it up and tube it if needed for clarification, is it that people don't believe this or are we talking about 2 different things. I've even modified ejectors strength but ejection pattern with an idea of how it runs is just like a mechanic and a knock in an engine, it may not mean anything to you, but the mechanic can tell if its lifter vs. crank bearing and that is alright or really freaking bad.
yallknowho
08-15-12, 01:05
Not sure if this has been asked yet, but is there a way to adapt the A5 system to a pistol lower?
wouldn't putting an extra long RE defeat the purpose of a pistol lower?
wouldn't putting an extra long RE defeat the purpose of a pistol lower?
That depends on if 3/4" OAL is more important than superb reliability.
IMO, AR pistols are much more an SBR substitute than a sidearm, so the RE sticking out the back is not really a detriment.
wouldn't putting an extra long RE defeat the purpose of a pistol lower?
There is no purpose to the pistol lower.... so you can't really dumb the idea down any more than it already is. :D
mallowpufft
08-15-12, 08:48
There is no purpose to the pistol lower.... so you can't really dumb the idea down any more than it already is. :D
Pistol lowers are handy for folks living in non SBR states or for those who don't want to give the BATF $200 . Still going to be loud as crap without a suppressor, but to each their own.
Tapatalk ate my spelling and grammar.
Pistol lowers are handy for folks living in non SBR states
I know.. I know... I'd really just rather run a 16" gun than a Pistol though.
Pistol lowers are handy for folks living in non SBR states or for those who don't want to give the BATF $200 . Still going to be loud as crap without a suppressor, but to each their own.
I would argue that a bullpup (AUG) is an infinitely better solution than an AR pistol.
Although I can see no reason not to put the A5 on a new pistol build, it's not going to hurt anything. I've yet to confirm A5 effectiveness on under highspeed camera, but I suspect it's better than carbine.
but I just do not even start to comprehend the notion that ejection pattern doesn't matter.
Just no.
There a million variables that might determine where the brass lands, added up to an o'clock value makes no sense at all.
Deflector shape and location
Buffer spring strength*
Buffer weight*
Bolt/Carrier weight
Brass variance/shape/mfg
Ammo charge/weight
Overall Cyclic rate / bolt velocity*
Dwell time*
Extractor shape
Extractor spring strength
And I'm sure plenty others
* are the ones I suspect the on topic A5 system can alter
Nothing in the world would make a gun that has brass landing at 2 any definitively better or worse than a gun who's brass lands at 5. Those 'rules' are complete made up BS.
Adding the A5 to a gun might make it more reliable while moving it's brass landing location. There is no rule to this.
I'll agree that in an ideal world, all the brass lands at a similar location between shots with few outliers but that specific spot is absolutely irrelevant.
Exactly. A smart person will factor the ejection pattern into the big picture. It's just a small clue in the whole scheme.
I know.. I know... I'd really just rather run a 16" gun than a Pistol though.
Exactly, I don't really understand why most people seem to act like a 16 inch carbine is so long...
Pistol lowers are a waste of time and money. I can all but guarantee that those who think they are SBR substitutes have never dedicated enough time to practicing with them either.
wouldn't putting an extra long RE defeat the purpose of a pistol lower?
It just skirts the stock issue a bit by giving the shooter an extra inch to stick the RE in the shoulder pocket.
Originally Posted by Noodles:
There a million variables that might determine where the brass lands, added up to an o'clock value makes no sense at all.
Deflector shape and location
Buffer spring strength*
Buffer weight*
Bolt/Carrier weight
Brass variance/shape/mfg
Ammo charge/weight
Overall Cyclic rate / bolt velocity*
Dwell time*
[Extractor shape
Extractor spring strength
And I'm sure plenty others
IMO the ejector spring can be added and for the amount in change in tension and rate is likely more than the extractor (the shape of the extractor has a smaller effect.)
The angle while can be used "in part" to assist in seeing the effects of changes made to the system I agree is of minor use and certainly not a end all be all to the gas system setup with a particular load. As an example changing the ejector spring from a standard one to a stronger CS one can change the ejection angle from as an example, 3:30 to 2:30. IMO what is more useful is the consistency of how well the ejected brass groups. Does it throw the brass in the same area. Of course the quality of the ammo load can effect this. But even with this there are variables that have to be accounted for and held somewhat consistent.
To the above quoted list you can add:(assuming a clean and gun broken in gun)
The lube and amount used
How rigid and consistent the AR is held during firing
Ambient temp
Rate of fire and time between shots
Inspection of the brass rim can be helpful for indication of early unlock timing from over gassing or improper system setup.
IMO the ejector spring can be added and for the amount in change in tension and rate is likely more than the extractor (the shape of the extractor has a smaller effect.)
The angle while can be used "in part" to assist in seeing the effects of changes made to the system I agree is of minor use and certainly not a end all be all to the gas system setup with a particular load. As an example changing the ejector spring from a standard one to a stronger CS one can change the ejection angle from as an example, 3:30 to 2:30. IMO what is more useful is the consistency of how well the ejected brass groups. Does it throw the brass in the same area. Of course the quality of the ammo load can effect this. But even with this there are variables that have to be accounted for and held somewhat consistent.
To the above quoted list you can add:(assuming a clean and gun broken in gun)
The lube and amount used
How rigid and consistent the AR is held during firing
Ambient temp
Rate of fire and time between shots
Inspection of the brass rim can be helpful for indication of early unlock timing from over gassing or improper system setup.
I wanted to just follow up on this. I know it's a necro, but it's pertinent. I was doing some T&E the other day when I noticed that ejection was very erratic with a new BCG I had bought. The only difference between the first and second video is the replacement of the ejector spring:
OEM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMX_y5pvEVA
As modified: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckcnPA5aXjw
The "angle of ejection" is a possible portion, consistency is the key.
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