Accurate, Barrier Blind .223/5.56mm?

[DRT]

I love the accuracy of 75gr T2 5.56mm TAP. It regularly shoots 1.25- 1.5MOA in my free-floated 16" and 20" Colt barrels (1:7).

I'm having trouble finding factory barrier blind ammo that provides similar accuracy. The 70gr TSX by SSA is the closest at around 2MOA. The remington 62gr is 3MOA and the 62gr XM223SP1 around 2-2.25MOA. Reports I've read indicate that mk318 accuracy is also mediocre. OK for relatively close range but I'd like to be able to accurately shoot to extended ranges.

I suspect that the 5.56mm TBBC load (currently unobtainium) won't be very accurate since the .223 version was a 2.5-3MOA round. I'm curious about the accuracy of the new 5.56 64gr winchester bonded offering. I'm wondering it is uses a bullet similar to the accubond. If so, then it might be the ticket.

Has anyone else found a good barrier blind round that's accurate out to 300M?

[Ironman8]

Have you tried any of the lighter weight TSX rounds?

[DRT]

No I have not. Have you any experience and/or seen any reports involving the BH 50gr tsx 5.56mm?

[Ironman8]

No I have not. Have you any experience and/or seen any reports involving the BH 50gr tsx 5.56mm?

No personal experience, but I remember hearing they were pretty accurate. Whether they are sub 2 moa, I have no idea. This topic was actually something I was thinking about earlier since I'm planning a "semi-precision" recce build.

Btw, are you sure all you're getting is 1.25-1.5" groups with the TAP? I've heard of much better in the accuracy department from them...

[DRT]

I have on a couple of occasions gotten just over an inch at 100 yards out of my 20" rifle, but 1.25-1.5" is much more the norm. These are A2 profile, gov't barrels w/legit 556 chamber, albeit free-floated, so I'm sure a tighter, more precision-oriented barrel (e.g. noveske) would do better. A better shooter behind the trigger might do better too.

By the way, I have the privilege of having property to be able to shoot at 'extended' ranges out to 400M. Judging the wind accurately, particularly with a .224 bullet, is a critical skill that I'm working on. I good laser ranger is helpful for longer ranges too. I'm having a lot of fun shooting steel swinging targets at longer ranges. I love the feedback vs shooting at paper.

[Ironman8]

I have on a couple of occasions gotten just over an inch at 100 yards out of my 20" rifle, but 1.25-1.5" is much more the norm. These are A2 profile, gov't barrels w/legit 556 chamber, albeit free-floated, so I'm sure a tighter, more precision-oriented barrel (e.g. noveske) would do better. A better shooter behind the trigger might do better too.

By the way, I have the privilege of having property to be able to shoot at 'extended' ranges out to 400M. Judging the wind accurately, particularly with a .224 bullet, is a critical skill that I'm working on. I good laser ranger is helpful for longer ranges too. I'm having a lot of fun shooting steel swinging targets at longer ranges. I love the feedback vs shooting at paper.

Yeah with that barrel, you're getting pretty decent groups.

Now as far as your land....you wouldn't happen to be in TX would you? ;)

[Ironman8]

Another round that I have heard had pretty decent accuracy is the Speer 24448 (.223)...have you tried that one yet?

Aside from rebarreling your rifle, you might not see much better accuracy than you're seeing from the TAP.

[Turnkey11]

The 64 gr speer load is what Im duplicating this fall as soon as I run out of 75gr Hornady OTMs. Im going to work up a load with the 64 gr powerpoint and 65 gr gameking to see which groups tighter with my rifles. Im picking up a couple boxes from GT Distributors this month to compare with the chrono.

[DocGKR]

USG Mk318 Mod0 has a 2 MOA lot acceptance accuracy requirement; it is quite accurate for a combat cartridge--much more so than many recent lots of M855 which can be up to 6 MOA.

I am curious why you think 2-3 MOA is an issue out of a standard Colt USG chrome lined barrel with non-match grade ammo. 2-3 MOA is not atypical for USG M4/M16's. There is a reason why precision rifles use a match grade barrel, shooting match grade OTM ammo...

[CarlosDJackal]

USG Mk318 Mod0 has a 2 MOA lot acceptance accuracy requirement; it is quite accurate for a combat cartridge--much more so than many recent lots of M855 which can be up to 6 MOA...

FWIW, I printed a 1/2", 3-shot group at 50-yards (1 MOA) out of my LWRCI M6A2 PSD Carbine (8.5" bbl) using an Aimpoint H-1 micro (4 MOA RDS) with the Mk318. IMHO, if this doesn't fit your accuracy needs, nothing will.

[DocGKR]

When we are discussing group sizes, lets use 10 rd grps as our baseline...

[DRT]

2-3MOA would work but I guess I'm spoiled with the accuracy that I achieve with 5.56mm 75gr TAP, even with a gov't profile, 5.56mm barrel.

DocGKR, any feedback on the accuracy potential of the new 5.56mm 64gr Winchester ammo? I'm hoping for a projectile similar to an accubond, both in terminal performance and accuracy.

[Turnkey11]

Anyone have the 64gr Speer Gold Dot ammo on hand that can take a quick measurement of the OAL of the cartridge?

[RioGrandeGreen]

Gentlemen,

What is the difference between Speer 24448 .223 and CS24450 .223. I can't find anything on the WWW. That's what we are issued and I'm just trying to find some specs.

Thanks,
RGG

[KhanRad]

Here's some more good info on the Speer load:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/491888__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Speer_LE_64_Grain_Gold_Dot_Range_Report.html&page=1

Shot a few deer with this load. Works pretty good.

[Dozer]

Stan Chen from Asym Precision developed a nice barrier blind load in which he uses a 70gr. copper projectile. More info can be found here (http://store.chencustom.com/223_SOLID_DEFENSE_X_70_gr_Barnes_Copper_TSX_s/92.htm).

[DocGKR]

A 5.56 mm 70 gr TSX is a good load for hunting medium game and at longer ranges, however for most LE use, the 5.56 mm pressure 50 gr TSX loaded by BH offers optimal penetration and expansion. In addition, keep in mind that while the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off--this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Barnes70TSX_InAutoGlass.jpg

[Dozer]

A 5.56 mm 70 gr TSX is a good load for hunting medium game and at longer ranges, however for most LE use, the 5.56 mm pressure 50 gr TSX loaded by BH offers optimal penetration and expansion. In addition, keep in mind that while the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off--this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Barnes70TSX_InAutoGlass.jpg


Thanks for the info Doc.

[vicious_cb]

The Mk318 white box and brown box stuff shoots around 3 MOA as per Molons testing using several different barrels.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/5qc36vzi87.jpg

[WS6]

In my experience good M855 is 2 MOA ammo or better (10 shot groups). I have not yet tested my MK318. I will be very disappointed if it only shoots 3MOA.

[DocGKR]

Real USG Mk318 has a 2 MOA lot acceptance standard--what civilians are most likely purchasing are lots that did NOT meet the USG requirements. Likewise, it is not uncommon to find M855 lots that are pushing up to 6 MOA, as the lot acceptance standard has gotten very slack over the past decade...

[rob_s]

So distilled down, and driving at what I assume the Op is asking...

In the realm of commercially, readily available ammunition to non-LE civilians for private purchase, what offers the best combination of accuracy and terminal performance?

Does that answer change if the caveat of use in SBRs is added?

[DocGKR]

I'd pick a cost effective load, readily available in your area that offers the requisite reliability, accuracy, and terminal performance requirements out of your carbine, as noted here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881.

[C4IGrant]

I love the accuracy of 75gr T2 5.56mm TAP. It regularly shoots 1.25- 1.5MOA in my free-floated 16" and 20" Colt barrels (1:7).

I'm having trouble finding factory barrier blind ammo that provides similar accuracy. The 70gr TSX by SSA is the closest at around 2MOA. The remington 62gr is 3MOA and the 62gr XM223SP1 around 2-2.25MOA. Reports I've read indicate that mk318 accuracy is also mediocre. OK for relatively close range but I'd like to be able to accurately shoot to extended ranges.

I suspect that the 5.56mm TBBC load (currently unobtainium) won't be very accurate since the .223 version was a 2.5-3MOA round. I'm curious about the accuracy of the new 5.56 64gr winchester bonded offering. I'm wondering it is uses a bullet similar to the accubond. If so, then it might be the ticket.

Has anyone else found a good barrier blind round that's accurate out to 300M?

Have you looked at the SPEER 24448/24455 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=SPEE) and the Hornady 8125N (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8125N)??

The SPEER is my favorite based on capability, cost and accuracy.


C4

[rob_s]

The SPEER is my favorite based on capability, cost and accuracy.

What size groups are you getting? #/of rounds/group, distance, rifle setup, etc.?

[C4IGrant]

What size groups are you getting? #/of rounds/group, distance, rifle setup, etc.?

I got 1.5" out of my 10.5 Noveske N4 (10rd groups) at 100yds.



C4

[RioGrandeGreen]

We are getting with the Speer .223 64 grain 1-2 inch groups with 3.5x Acogs at 100 yards with some good shooters . With Matech BUIS we are getting about 2 inch groups also at 100 yds. This is an M4A1 with 14.5 inch barrel. This is not scientific or anything this are just my observations at the range.

This is just a 3-round group for sight in purposes from the prone. Sorry Doc.

Khanrad thanks for the info.

[GD4]

Im pretty new to the long range AR game but I was very happy with the performance of some of the Asym Precision 68 grain stuff out of my 18.5 inch SPR build.

I was actually going to get some of the 70 tsx loads from Asym to see how well those shoot for this up coming deer season.

The ammo and rifle are way more accurate then the shooter. Here is a link to my Youtube where Im putting a few rounds down range.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ssggfield?feature=mhee

[vicious_cb]

The Speer GD .223 does indeed have excellent accuracy. Again from Molon's testing:


Prior to testing the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loaded 69 grain Sierra MatchKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.86”. Three 10-shot groups of the Speer LE 64 grain Gold Dots fired in a row had extreme spreads that measured:

1.11”
0.91”
1.30”

for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.12”! I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.33”.

For comparison, previous testing of the Black Hills blue box 75 grain MHP load fired from the same set-up as above produced three 10-shot groups at 100 yards that had an average extreme spread of 1.14” and a mean radius of 0.37” for the 30-shot composite group.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/cc2filnjxh.jpg

[Nemecsek]

I have been disappointed with the accuracy of the 50gr TSX by Black Hills. Maybe I am spoiled by the accuracy of the 77gr OTM. From my Noveske 18", at 100 yards, 5 shot groups, I'm getting .75-1.00 from BH 77gr .223 load. The 556 (Mk262) version using the same 77gr gives me around 1-1.25". The same rifle only gave me 2.50" at best with the 50gr TSX. And the POI was about 2" off from the other rounds. I consider it a short range round... The Hornady 75 T2 gives me 1.5-1.75" which is nothing spectacular either. Maybe other barrels give better results.

[Swatdude1]

What twist is your barrel?