Is it even really worth worrying about?

[BrigandTwoFour]

Hey guys, this may be close to the custom build arena, but I figure you guys have quite a bit more experience in this topic.

Yes, this will be a 16" vs 18" topic. But I don't care one bit about eh SPR vs RECCE concept. As far as I'm concerned, the two concepts have proven more than accurate enough for me and my purposes.

That said, here's the situation. I already have two ARs, the first one was built around a Centurion CHF 16" light weight and TR24G. I love that gun, and it shoots fantastically. The second build (half-jokingly referred to as my fiancee's gun) is a BCM 16" pencil KISS gun with an XPS.

I have the hankering for a third AR. I have been doing quite a bit of outlaw 2 and 3 gun. While my centurion build has been great, I didn't really build it for precision. I think of it more as a very accurate work horse rifle.

So to be clear, this is NOT a home defense, "SHTF," or something I need to bet my life on. It will pretty much be used for gaming, marksmanship practice, and potentially popping prairie dogs. It will not be getting humped around the mountains or abused. But it will have to be more mobile than a bench rest gun.

That said, here are my needs:

- Accuracy
- Capability to reach out to at least 500 yards, maybe a bit more (our range potentially goes up to 1000, but I have my JAE-100 stocked M1A for that)
- Mobility for a variety of courses of fire
- Ability to use a variety of ammo, to include some of the lighter varmint rounds


I know I'm already heading into stainless territory. I assume that my desire to use the lighter varmint rounds eliminates a 1/7 twist barrel, so out goes the Centurion MK12 or Recon barrels. I'm more than likely going to go with BCM SS410. The real question is what length.

And that's where I come to you guys. I know there is little difference in accuracy between the 16 or the 18, and really minimal velocity difference. This really comes down to a mid or rifle gas system. Do any of you guys who own and run both notice a significant enough difference between them? I know the 18" rifle is supposed to be very soft shooting, but is it really worth the potential penalty in weight and mobility?

Also, on the subject of optics. My initial idea was to run an ACOG, either TA11 or TA31. Do you think a more serious rifle scope would be more beneficial? I know the ACOGS are not really considered precision optics.

The flip side to all of this, of course, is to just skip the SS gun all together and buy another optic for my Centurion.

Thanks for the help, guys!

[Belmont31R]

I think you would be better off with an optic other than an ACOG if you are looking for just an accurate gun. Something with a finer reticle especially with varmint hunting in mind. I just don't think it would offer enough magnification or a fine enough aiming point. Not that you couldn't use it but its not ideal.



I think 16" is a better length because it still feels like a carbine. An 18" feels more like a rifle.



You can reliably shoot pretty light bullets out of a 1-7. Not down to 36 or something like that but mid 40's and up should be ok. Molon did a test on this and was still shooting some impressive groups with bullets below 50 grains. 1-8 would give you a little more buffer room. Also be aware just because a barrel is advertised at 1-7 doesn't mean its actually 1-7 on the dot. Many of them are closer to 1-7.5 to 1-7.7.


There are quite a few barrels out there that would fit the role pretty good. Noveske, BCM, WOA, Lothar-Walther, Centurion, ect. Ive owned quite a few stainless barrels and if I were to get another it would be a Krieger barrel done by WOA.

[maximus83]

Belmont has given the barrel makers that are worth buying from. For the purposes you mentioned ("gaming, marksmanship practice, and potentially popping prairie dogs"), I would go to a 18" stainless since you have no need to keep it compact. For optics, I would suggest something with higher magnification than the ACOG, again keeping your usage scenarios in mind. I'd get a lightweight 2.5-10x scope at least. If you're serious about varmint shooting at longer range, you'll probably want magnification up to 16x.

[BBJones13]

What kind of accuracy are you getting out of your 16" CHF Centurion? Have you tried match ammo or equivalent hand loads? I am getting pretty consistent 1.25" groups now (.25-.5" of that is the shooter) but haven't tuned my handloads and am using a less than ideal optic for load testing.

As for 16" vs 18" SS, I say 16". Only because I don't think you get much performance for those 2" and I prefer a lighter handier rifle. Really not that big of a deal either way. Never hurts to have another AR.

[BrigandTwoFour]

Thanks, guys.

My original idea for this build was more of a DMR/MK12 pattern, hence the ACOG. But, the more I really thought about it, most of those needs were already met by my Centurion build. I have always been attracted to the 18" length and rifle gas because, frankly, I find it looks very pleasing. I'll definitely head into the higher magnification scopre range. I can take the SS 3x9 off my M1A or add a Vortex 4-16.

My marksmanship skills are acceptable, but not great. On a good day, I can keep my groups down to around 1.25" to 1.5" for five shots at 100 yards with SSA 77gr OTM or 75gr TAP (I don't handload...yet).

I have often questioned how well my barrel was mounted, and wondered if I can do better. I don't have the tools to mount barrels, so I had one of the local gunsmiths do it. My experience with them was...lacking (hence the switch towards factory assembled uppers). In an actual run and gun kind of scenario, I do better than most of the guys I shoot with, but still not fantastic by any means.

But, bottom line on that is that any of the barrels Belmont mentioned would well out-perform my abilities for quite some time. So it will probably come down more to cost when choosing a manufacturer.

on the length of the barrel, have any of you used a 16" in a long range plate match?

Nobody mentioned it yet, but what about the recoil impulse difference between the middy and the rifle systems?

[Belmont31R]

The rifle gas shooters a little softer, and I really liked mine but I don't think the extra 2" of barrel is really worth it. If you have your mind set on a 18" they still make for a nice rifle, and mine had a Centurion barrel on it in the Mk12 profile.


However as mentioned I would go with a Krieger if I did it again. The Centurion are button rifled Douglas and the Krieger are cut rifled. I think cut rifled barrels have better potential accuracy. Molon, our resident accuracy guru, has one that shoots amazing groups.


You can definitely not really go wrong with any of those brands, and even though you may be able to find one cheaper its not a huge cost difference. By the time you add up glass, mounts, furniture, ammo, range time, ect...its tiny difference.

[BrigandTwoFour]

You mentioned Krieger done by WOA. Are the stainless barrels that WOA has on their site made by Krieger? Or are you talking about the machine work and mounting?

[Belmont31R]

They can turn on for you to your specifications or if you just want one of the 'house' barrel contours done on a Krieger blank instead.