View Full Version : Most durable finish for corrosion and wear...
So I am getting my Kimber Warrior frontstrap textured, and MSH done to match. This will obviously require a refinish of the lower frame.
So I need to get a highly durable finish that holds up to repeated draws from a 6004 or Sidearmor kydex since I will be getting the entire pistol re-done to match.
The LTW raffle pistol had been hard chromed under a layer of Ion Bond top coat...
Finish I am considering:
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/02112007/20687857043.jpg
From what I understand, Ion Bond is some hard, hard, durable stuff.
Lastly, I'd appreciate pics of your pistols with the finish you recommend, and a quick rundown of how hard it's been used.
rubberneck
11-12-07, 16:31
Ion bond seems to be all the rage nowadays. I am toying with having one of my guns done by them. Till now I have usually gone with matte chrome on my competition guns. I have a single stack Caspian that has seen 30,000+ rounds and more draw strokes than I care to remember and it still looks good.
I prefer a black gun but there wasn't as tough as hard chrome until now. I am impressed with the looks and quality of Ionbond. One of the guys I shoot IDPA and USPSA with has his limited/ESP gun Ion Bonded and after a full season of shooting and thousands of draw strokes it looks the way it did the day he got it back from the gunsmith.
Yeah, just to be clear. Finish must be dark, even if that limits my choices...
Or even if it means I need to go the route of the hard chrome base with colored top coat.
Ion bond or E-Treat by EGW. The look dark, similar to matte blued finishes. Ion bond is too new and I haven't seen enough usage of one. My 'smith had a bunch of his customers' guns Ion bonded and they look very good. A friend who shoot IDPA and uses kydex holster has a 1911 with the E Treatment process. After a year, the gun looks brand new.
Both processes are not cheap.
One of our latest LTW guns is ion bond over hardchrome. Should be as resilient as could be...
The ion bond over hard chrome looks very promising. Another option you may want to consider is Melonite from Coal Creek Armory. Just like/ Is tenifer a la Glock.
This is after a very hard use summer as I was lucky to be able to shoot often. It was carried in either a HSGI drop leg rig or a 6004. It was drawn 100's if not low thousands of times.
Additionally, someone who wanted to check it out dropped it on a concrete floor and THEN kicked it across the floor as he bent down to get it.:eek: It was also dropped once at a gravel pit where we shoot. Add that my sweat is stronger than an Alien creature's blood and it was a rough few months.
Nonetheless, outside of a little zinger on the Heinie rear sight, there is ZERO visible wear. The pistol ate a little less than 12 cases of ammo without a hiccup. The barrel is Melonized inside as well.
I highly recommend it. CCAs site is down right now but the phone number is there. Ask for Tony. Cost last Dec. was $200 with a 4 week wait. I hear the wait has grown considerably but it's worth it. Just another option for you.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/DSCN0006-4.jpg
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http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/DSCN0004-4.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/DSCN0003-4.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/DSCN0002-5.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/DSCN0001-6.jpg
Chuck Rogers built me a full house gun, and I left the finish, and a lot of other things, up to him. I told him about my physical characteristics and environment. He chose Cerakote as a finish. Something to think about.
For the record, I have rusted parkerization, bluing, Armory Kote, and hardchrome. I have never been able to get my Diamond Black, or Black-T guns to rust--even under the grips. Something else to think about.
Who offers ion bon
Ion Bond.
http://www.ionbond.com/
I'm having my gun hardchromed by Metaloy and then DLC coated by Ion Bond. It should be a very tough gun, but I'm wondering about corrosion resistance.
rubberneck
11-13-07, 10:04
The ion bond over hard chrome looks very promising. Another option you may want to consider is Melonite from Coal Creek Armory. Just like/ Is tenifer a la Glock.
Nice looking gun. Melonite is similar in many regards to Tenifer but it isn't the same thing. Tenifer can not be applied here in the states due to EPA regulations. Melonite is the process used by Smith & Wesson on the M&P slides. One of the things that has kept me away from Melonite thus far is that fact that the parts are subjected to a great deal of heat during the plating process. So much so that most folks who do Melonite won't touch the small parts for fear that they will fail prematurely. If done correctly it is a really nice finish for the slide, frame and MSH.
edited: I corrected the last sentence to make sense.
Nice looking gun. Melonite is similar in many regards to Tenifer but it isn't the same thing. Tenifer can not be applied here in the states due to EPA regulations. Melonite is the process used by Smith & Wesson on the M&P slides. One of the things that has kept me away from Melonite thus far is that fact that the parts are subjected to a great deal of heat during the plating process. So much so that small parts that most folks who do Melonite won't touch the small parts for fear that they will fail prematurely. If done correctly it is a really nice finish for the slide, frame and MSH.
Excellent point on the small parts that I failed to mention. Certain small parts, springs, pins were not Melonized because of what you stated. CCA was very careful to make sure that the pistol functioned perfectly before being returned.
We are going to start doing AR bolts, 10/22 SS upper receivers, SS barrels and some other things in Melonite as we have a shop local to us that does excellent work. I will get some pics up when I get them done.
C4
I'm looking at having a future John Harrison 1911 done in IonBond. I've seen pictures on louderthanwords.us and it looked pretty nice. By the way Grant, I sent ya an e-mail.
Cyrus
rubberneck
11-13-07, 11:32
We are going to start doing AR bolts, 10/22 SS upper receivers, SS barrels and some other things in Melonite as we have a shop local to us that does excellent work. I will get some pics up when I get them done.
C4
Grant, doing an AR bolt in Melonite is a really bad idea. The temperature of the process is high enough to cause the part to lose it's tempering.
Melonite is applies at a 580 degrees, pretty sure a AR bolt can handle that.
Grant, doing an AR bolt in Melonite is a really bad idea. The temperature of the process is high enough to cause the part to lose it's tempering.
The guys that do the Melonite have advised me that a bolt will not suffer as it is not hot enough to do any damage.
C4
rubberneck
11-14-07, 08:42
Melonite is applies at a 580 degrees, pretty sure a AR bolt can handle that.
Close but no cigar. Go back and re-read the specs for the process. When you do you will notice that the process is done at 580 degrees centigrade, or 1075 degrees Fahrenheit for 90 minutes. And it will certainly effect the tempering of the part. Think of an M&M. The part will be very hard right at the surface but soft underneath. That is fine for parts that don't flex much but a total disaster on parts that do. I also suspect that there will be issues with the locking lugs over time.
http://www.alandraservices.com/waves.html
Grant, are the guys who you talked to experienced in the application of Melonite in a firearm? I ask because the guys that I have talked to won't apply it to ejectors and extractors on a 1911 because of the issues I mentioned earlier in this thread. While I haven't discussed AR bolts with them I am sure the same principal applies.
Close but no cigar. Go back and re-read the specs for the process. When you do you will notice that the process is done at 580 degrees centigrade, or 1075 degrees Fahrenheit for 90 minutes. And it will certainly effect the tempering of the part. Think of an M&M. The part will be very hard right at the surface but soft underneath. That is fine for parts that don't flex much but a total disaster on parts that do. I also suspect that there will be issues with the locking lugs over time.
http://www.alandraservices.com/waves.html
Grant, are the guys who you talked to experienced in the application of Melonite in a firearm? I ask because the guys that I have talked to won't apply it to ejectors and extractors on a 1911 because of the issues I mentioned earlier in this thread. While I haven't discussed AR bolts with them I am sure the same principal applies.
Smith and Wesson coat the M&P's stainless slides with Melonite?
Close but no cigar. Go back and re-read the specs for the process. When you do you will notice that the process is done at 580 degrees centigrade, or 1075 degrees Fahrenheit for 90 minutes. And it will certainly effect the tempering of the part. Think of an M&M. The part will be very hard right at the surface but soft underneath. That is fine for parts that don't flex much but a total disaster on parts that do. I also suspect that there will be issues with the locking lugs over time.
http://www.alandraservices.com/waves.html
Grant, are the guys who you talked to experienced in the application of Melonite in a firearm? I ask because the guys that I have talked to won't apply it to ejectors and extractors on a 1911 because of the issues I mentioned earlier in this thread. While I haven't discussed AR bolts with them I am sure the same principal applies.
They have their FFL and do a lot of firearms.
C4
Smith and Wesson coat the M&P's stainless slides with Melonite?
Yes.
C4
rubberneck
11-14-07, 08:53
Smith and Wesson coat the M&P's stainless slides with Melonite?
Just the slides.
My point was lost in the title and body - sorry:
Why (& how) does S&W coat their M&P stainless slides with Melonite and for some reason Grant's coater can not coat a BCG?
I am no expert, but I suspect that the metalurgy for different types of steel used in BCG's has distinct characteristics. I can only guess that this will be taken into consideration.
rubberneck
11-14-07, 09:22
Why (& how) does S&W coat their M&P stainless slides with Melonite and for some reason Grant's coater can not coat a BCG?
The last thing I want to do is put myself forward as an expert on Melonite. I have had several long conversations with guys who are, and work with it on firearms specifically. Unlike an AR bolt, the slide is a low stress part that isn't subjected to the type of pressure and heat that an AR bolt is. If you think about for a second and ask yourself how long does you average AR bolt last?, and what would be your reaction if the slide of one of your handguns failed as quickly as your average bolt does?
I am not telling Grant what to do. If he is comfortable with it and the guys who are applying it are then they should have at it. Personally I would never buy a Melonited bolt but that doesn't mean that it might not make sense for someone else to.
olds442tyguy
11-14-07, 13:05
Hmmm. I wonder if S&W heat treats their slides after the melonite process. They're stainless, so they should be more susceptible to immediate degradation than an AR15 bolt which is made of a harder steel.
I have never seen a Melonite AR bolt so I am curious how it would work out.
Barry in IN
11-16-07, 09:22
Since I saw that Melonite has come up a couple of times, along with the subject of wait times, I thought I'd mention that I just got a Browning HiPower back from being Melonited by Drake's Gun Works.
Total wait, door-to-door, was two weeks exactly. I sent it out on a Friday, which caught the weekend, otherwise it might have been a little quicker.
Also, it had a custom extended thumb safety that was silver soldered and he chose to black oxide and Teflon that part rather than expose it to the heat the Melonite requires. I dont know if that added anything to the time or not.
Obligitory Pics:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/ColtsR4Football/Picture704.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/ColtsR4Football/Picture706.jpg
Link:
http://drakesgunworks.com/
For a durable fininsh I would vote ROBAR's Roguard for black fininsh and NP3 for a lighter gray finish. Roguard is very durable and wear resistant.
The NP3 seems like it would be the best thing going for a BCG being that it's Electroless Nickle w/Teflon......making it self lubricating and resistant to any buildup of carbon residue. Increased reliability and easy cleaning. Cost wise, I belive they'll fininsh your BCG and all AR internals for around $140.
Has Roguard changed? For the longest time, it was well document as NOT durable.
I've never seen any problems with it....plus it has a lifetime guarantee against peeling, flaking, and corrosion. Of course no finish is 100% wear proof, however I think the Roguard finish would be more resistant to typical holster type finish wear than Melonite or Tennifer.
Has Roguard changed? For the longest time, it was well document as NOT durable.
... however I think the Roguard finish would be more resistant to typical holster type finish wear than Melonite or Tennifer.
I could not disagree with you more.
I'm going to get either Cerakote or Permakote on a few guns. Both are Ceramic based coatings, at have excellent corrosion and wear resistance(at least on paper).
Nighthawk Custom uses Permakote on their guns.
I believe Grant uses Cerakote on some of his stuff, maybe he can chime in here.
I could not disagree with you more.
Would have to agree. Melonite or Tennifer are going to be much more durable then just about every other finish out there. This is why Glock and S&W use these finishes.
C4
I'm going to get either Cerakote or Permakote on a few guns. Both are Ceramic based coatings, at have excellent corrosion and wear resistance(at least on paper).
Nighthawk Custom uses Permakote on their guns.
I believe Grant uses Cerakote on some of his stuff, maybe he can chime in here.
Cerakote is fantastic I think, but not as robust as say Melonite IMHO.
C4
I was mainly referring to wear on the "finish" since the OP asked for help in that area. We have to remember that neither Tennifer nor Melonite are the metal finish, however they are a chemical treatment/process the metal undergoes harden and prevent corrosion....not stop basic wear. That's why Glocks and M&P's show early holster wear in my experience. Of course since Tennifer/Melonite are metal treatments, their properties are still present once the actual parkerized "finish" is worn. I admit that the Tennifer/Melonite process makes for some of the most durable & corrosion proof metal, but I still feel that any of the teflon, ceramic, or hard chrome coatings will provide a more wear resistant outer "finish."
I beg to differ. Teflon and other finish coatings do NOT excel in the area of "wear" resistance, but in corrosion resistance. For instance, a gun with Black-T, the leading finish of the teflon type, will still resist corrosion in places that have worn down to bare metal. How do I know this? Because I have caused firearms with such finishes to fail in the area of "wear" resistance. This, just like the failures of Roguard which I alluded to earlier, is well-documented.
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