View Full Version : USA Ammo AR-15
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:42
This is going to be a long post due to having some email conversation listed, so if you do not care enough about USA Ammo or High Standard firearms, it may be a waste of your time to read through all of this.
I got an email at around 0945 this morning from sales@usaammo.com stating that they are selling an AR-15 called an AR-Lite (Item # USAARLITE) for $695.00 with a listed retail of $1155.00 "while supplies last." I called the number listed on the website and spoke with a lady to see if she could ask a few of my questions. I asked her if the rifle was made by ArmaLite with some cheaper parts to bring it down to that price point. She told me to hold on for a minute, put me on hold and a gentleman picked up the phone and asked how he could help me. I let him know that I was on hold with a lady that was trying to find out the answer to a question that I had and he said that's why he picked up the phone. I asked him if he knew who manufactured the rifle they had on their website and he said that he did and said that it is the same company that manufactures the ARs for the military. Now, I have been issued both an FN and a Colt while I've been in, so I asked if it was one of those companies. I'm not sure why this made him feel the way it did, but fairly sternly, he asked if I was a retailer. I let him know that I was not a retailer, rather just a customer who also happened to have had a Colt and FN rifle issued to me, so when he said it was the company that makes the military rifles, I felt that was the next question I should ask. He quickly said that he can't disclose who builds their rifles, but that they are made specifically for USA Ammo to their specifications. At this point, I was no longer interested in continuing the conversation, so I thanked him for his time and started checking on the internet to see if I could find the answer I was seeking.
Before I go any further, I would like to clarify why I was interested if it isn't already clear. With a name like AR-Lite, I though perhaps it was a misprint and was intended to be ArmaLite. With a "retail price of $1155.00, this made me wonder even further. At this point, I am thinking that this rifle is made by ArmaLite or another manufacturer with just cheaper (easily upgradable) parts that could turn out to be a decent rifle for really cheap at this price.
I ended up back on usaammo.com and noticed that there was a 5-star review by a gentleman on 16SEP2011 that said "Wow this AR is half price I just got mine last week....it took a week. Great gun best price, hight quality. Comes ready to shoot with nice steel sights." I thought that this might be my best opportunity to find out who made it by posting a review right after his. I do not remember exactly what I asked, and I would copy and paste it here but it seems to have disappeared from the website. The gist of what I posted was asking the guy that bought it to let me know who manufactured the rifle. I went on to explain that if it was a premium rifle with a few cheap parts such as the bolt and buffer, that I think it would be a good project gun. I did not check back to the website for the rest of the day as I got fairly busy.
I went to run at around 1600 and when I got back to my phone, I had a few emails, one of which was sent by a company representative at 1623. From here on out, I will open a new post for each correspondence. Each post will be an exact copy and paste of the email that I received or sent (with the usernames X'd out). If anything that I say in the emails back and forth, feel free to correct me as I do not claim to be all knowing, and I just felt that this may a good place to post this.
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:44
Shane,
I would like to clarify the information you apparently received earlier this morning. We were waiting on clearance from the manufacturer to release their information.
The AR-Lite is our introductory M4 for first-owner Carbiners. It is manufactured by High Standard who manufacturers for the DOD, DPMS, Armor Lite and many other well-known brands/retailers.
But wait, we are coming out next week with 2 other rifles that are for more experience shooters. Our AR-Operator is one BAD A** rifle, and although I cannot release too many details today, I can tell you it is a retail value of over $2500 and we will offer it for $1195. It will have many hyper-upgrades our fine service men and women are used to using in combat. Just be a little patient and await the AR-Operators release next week.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:44
Shane,
Sorry, things are crazy here today. In the earlier e-mail I misspelled ArmaLite and my assistant caught it. I apologize.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:45
High Standard does not have a DoD contact nor do they manufacture parts for any high end retailers.
Also the "retail" price of $1200 is what an LMT, BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense etc costs, not an entry level rifle for first time "Carbiners" (lol) so I am highly skeptical of your $2500 rifle that is coming out next week that is probably made by another hack company such like Bushmaster, DPMS, Doublestar etc.
I was hopeful that since the retail price was listed in the range of respectable rifles, that it might have been something decent with cheaper moving parts that I could upgrade with stuff that I have taken off of other ARs that I've had. Having found out that it is manufactured by a company like HS, but having a completely false retail listing on the website completely removes my interest in this rifle and your future offerings.
Thank you for the reply.
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:45
Shane,
I won’t argue with you about High Standards contracts. I am privy to their business and know that they are who they are represented to be.
Furthermore, our rifle exceeds the quality of LMT, BCM , Colt and Daniel Defense’s entry level carbines. In fact, it has the blessing of many police departments throughout the world.
Best of luck to you!
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:46
Lol, alright. Have a nice day.
By the way, I would like your permission to post this conversation on my unit's webpage as well as a few AR-15 forums that I and most of the guys that I've deployed with over the years frequent from time to time.
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:46
Shane,
I can see that you are a prolific blogger, but you do not have my permission or the permission of USA Ammo, LLC to broadcast or reprint the contents of this conversation.
Best of luck to you man.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:47
Okay. If you noticed in the previous email, I said that I would like your permission to post this conversation. I appreciate your reply, but I would like you to party special attention to how I did not ask for it. That is significant because I am still going to post this conversation in it's entirety, I just felt I should give you the opportunity to stand by what you said by agreeing to have this conversation reveled to the public.
As I see it, this conversation had come to an end and no further correspondence is needed.
If you do reply to this email with something that you would like to have posted along with this email, let me know and I will be happy to add amend what I post.
Have a nice day.
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 17:56
I know that I made a typing errors throughout the emails that I sent the USA Ammo representative, and he made a few typing errors also. I am not going to correct the spelling errors as I feel that this type of thread should be exact replications of the correspondence between the representative and I.
So basically we have yet another company marketing a sub-par AR, trying to use the "the government uses it, so it must be good" approach.
No thanks.
jklaughrey
09-20-11, 18:15
Thanks Shane. I know that a while back USAAmmo had some bad ammo that ended up in the hands of some end users. It would seem to me that they are jumping on the "el cheapo" bandwagon to garner sales from the uninformed. Spot on and thanks for the query with this guy. Are we sure it isn't Vulcan/Hesse re-branded?
PS saw the little video they had showcasing it on their website. Lower receiver had Interarms stamped on it. That should say enough to anyone with even a scrap of shooting/firearms background that these guys should be steered clear from.
Failure2Stop
09-20-11, 18:17
Hmmm...
Something in Denmark smells of old seafood.
DeltaSierra
09-20-11, 18:22
Yet another sub-standard company trying to pass off their junk as top-tier.
Gotta laugh at where he says that their rifles are better than "LMT, BCM , Colt and Daniel Defense..."
I guess if you are going to lie about your product, might as well lie big!
In fact, it has the blessing of many police departments throughout the world.
Even if this were true, Police Departments are notorious for selecting sub-standard weapons.
One local PD even uses Ruger P95s! That doesn't mean that P95s are high quality weapons...
Absolutely ridiculous. These people must have shit spewing from their mouths every time they open them
In fact, it has the blessing of many police departments throughout the world.
So does DPMS.....
jklaughrey
09-20-11, 18:27
I guess if you are going to lie about your product, might as well lie big!
9804
GO BIG OR GO HOME!
Wow.
I bet their customer service is top notch too?
No thanks.
TriviaMonster
09-20-11, 18:40
Yeah, it is what it is. Not really a big deal. Lots of companies claim outrageous msrp's. I'll give the rep the benefit of the doubt and just say that he isn't trying to flat out lie, but rather he may just be misinformed. Oh well. At the end of the day its just another sub $700 rifle that delta force swears by. There are a trillion of those already. That would have been cool if it was a decent starting point builder though.
Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk
I wonder if it costs extra to put the rear sight on right. It's backwards in the picture on their website.
Traveshamockery
09-20-11, 18:53
These guys weird me out. I bought into their $50 off $100 ammo deal from Gearhog and now I'm afraid to shoot the ammo due to sporadic reports of kabooms, especially in ARs.
Notice that on their website, they refer to loaded ammunition as "bullets".
I want one, especially since they use a "Mil Spec Park Rise" finish on steel.:rolleyes:
Traveshamockery
09-20-11, 19:16
I wonder if it costs extra to put the rear sight on right. It's backwards in the picture on their website.
Obviously you don't know mil-spec when you see it. It's optimized for use in the southern hemisphere, where left is right and up is down.
:secret:
And its listed under "guns". Well, I guess it is just meant for fun...
shane_huskey
09-20-11, 19:56
Wow, I am really surprised this many people have read this and responded to it so quickly. I was kindof under the impression that people were going to say something along the lines of "Shane, I know you are new and all, but don't post long posts" or "Who cares?" or something like that.
I am still trying to decide for myself if the typos on the webpage are genuine typos or if they are designed a little more covertly, perhaps to be able to tell people that they never said the rifle had a "parkerized" finish and whatnot. But on the other hand, the gentleman that I was talking to in the emails referred to users as "Carbiners" and said "Armor Lite" not to mention they use "Aperature" and "Aperture" on the webpage. Are they really that crooked, or are they trying to sell these rifles for High Standard or Interarms or whoever without ever even having seen them? I mean, perhaps the guys at USA Ammo really don't know anything about the AR platform and are just selling them. Sortof like what some small companies do when they never have their own stock. They run the storefront website, but all the stock is held at the main distributor and shipped from there. I am not saying that is what USA Ammo is doing, just wondering if something like that could be the case. Either way, the ignorance is humorous.
DeltaSierra
09-20-11, 20:05
Wow, I am really surprised this many people have read this and responded to it so quickly. I was kindof under the impression that people were going to say something along the lines of "Shane, I know you are new and all, but don't post long posts" or "Who cares?" or something like that.
You posted facts. That is what we like around here... ;)
I am still trying to decide for myself if the typos on the webpage are genuine typos or if they are designed a little more covertly, perhaps to be able to tell people that they never said the rifle had a "parkerized" finish and whatnot. But on the other hand, the gentleman that I was talking to in the emails referred to users as "Carbiners" and said "Armor Lite" not to mention they use "Aperature" and "Aperture" on the webpage. Are they really that crooked, or are they trying to sell these rifles for High Standard or Interarms or whoever without ever even having seen them? I mean, perhaps the guys at USA Ammo really don't know anything about the AR platform and are just selling them. Sort of like what some small companies do when they never have their own stock. They run the storefront website, but all the stock is held at the main distributor and shipped from there. I am not saying that is what USA Ammo is doing, just wondering if something like that could be the case. Either way, the ignorance is humorous.
I don't know what to make of their spelling issues, but this, combined with their fairly recent reloading issues (numerous documented KBs, etc) leads me to believe that it is a "Bubba Fudd" operation that hasn't got a clue about firearms in general...
I appreciate you posting you conversation here. Yet another reminder why buying a product based solely on price is a BAD idea...
DeltaSierra
PA PATRIOT
09-20-11, 20:40
I have been trying to get information from USAammo in reference to the 62gr PSP in new Lake City brass they sell for the past two weeks and their customer service has been lacking. Four phone calls and two e-mails with USAammo employees with promises to get right back to me which they never do.
I was trying to make an order with USAammo and need information on the construction of the bullet they use in the 62gr PSP loading.
I have edited this post to add the USAammo has contacted me with information that I requested after they were notified of this post. I now believe that USAammo is a young company trying to enter the Internet market to sell a broad line of inventory and customer service employees are learning the ropes so to say. I will give USAammo a Mulligan (aka A do Over) this time and continue to research their products for possible use.
Shane, I know you are new here but...:D
This is a low end no-name gun being sold by a company that is either lying, doesn't have a clue or probably a mix of both. While their claims are funny, I wouldn't even waste my time with the back and forth you are doing. Anyone who has spent at least an hour of quality time researching the stickies on this site would not even consider that AR.
I do await the release of their AR Operator model next week though:)
only 192 units left! act now :smile:
Another 192 customers will learn things the hard way :(
uh oh.......when I first looked earlier today it was 193
I have made a couple orders for 9mm in the past (stayed away from the .223 bc of the KBs recently) for a very good price and can honestly say that their CS was very good for me. HOWEVER...after reading this thread, I'm not sure I want to do business with them anymore...makes you wonder...
Mark82ndABN
09-20-11, 21:36
Shane, I know you are new here but...:D
This is a low end no-name gun being sold by a company that is either lying, doesn't have a clue or probably a mix of both. While their claims are funny, I wouldn't even waste my time with the back and forth you are doing. Anyone who has spent at least an hour of quality time researching the stickies on this site would not even consider that AR.
I do await the release of their AR Operator model next week though:)
This pretty much says it all. Why are you even wasting your time with all the "detective work" on a no-name company? :confused:
Mr. Goodtimes
09-21-11, 00:18
AR manufacturers are a dime a dozen these days. When I look at old school gun advertisements, though, the stupidity was just as bad then as it is now. IMO there aren't any more snake oil guns/gun products now than there was sixty years ago. There are companies that make quality rifles, know their stuff and sell them to quality folks and then there are companies that make cheap shit and sell their products to the simple minded masses.
Belmont31R
09-21-11, 02:00
AR manufacturers are a dime a dozen these days. When I look at old school gun advertisements, though, the stupidity was just as bad then as it is now. IMO there aren't any more snake oil guns/gun products now than there was sixty years ago. There are companies that make quality rifles, know their stuff and sell them to quality folks and then there are companies that make cheap shit and sell their products to the simple minded masses.
Which is why 3/4th of the AR world is still in business.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 08:52
Shane,
I cannot stop you from attempting to provide false information to the public. The information to dispute your claims is in the public domain and easily accessible to the masses. I stand firmly behind everything I said in the e-mail string and most importantly, I stand behind the quality of High Standard who has a storied history of providing the finest quality armaments to the DOD and other government entities.
Also, please pardon our graphic arts departments glaring misspellings and descriptive terms. We will correct those this morning.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 08:53
I appreciate your enthusiasm of the High Standard product line. I still have to disagree on all the points that we've touched on.
By the way, I meant to ask you yesterday if you would like a link to the forum that this is posted on. I'm sure that seeing a more public opinion of the product that you are offering may help future endevours for your company. I guess it is sortof like free market research. If you would like a link, feel free to send me an email back and I will respond with the link.
While he stands by what he said, he failed to provide any empirical proof and facts to support his claims. If High Standard does provide to the DOD, then what do they provide? Springs, screws, and little parts could qualify that statement just as well as receivers, barrels and other larger and more important parts.
If that information is so easily accessible, why couldn't he copy and paste the URLs, instead of making a blanket and unsupported statement?
They got caught in their marketing scheme that unfortunately works on the uninformed, but when confronted, cannot provide proof in any manner, of any sort.
Are they based in FL? If so, I remember a friend of mine bought 100K of .223, I still have some I use as MG fodder but have to remember to remove the muzzle device (brake or flash suppressor) because the bullets are so badly formed, the rounds couldn't even leave the barrel without striking the flash suppressor, sometimes pieces would fly out of the barrel, sometimes key holing on a new barrel. I'll take some pics if this is the same company.
I don't know what the big deal is guys...why would you need to see anything other than the AR Lite (so light it floats apparently) spinning in midair for 0:56 seconds. That's all I need to see...sign me up :sarcastic:
http://www.usaammo.com/AR-Lite-P869.aspx
Shit. Another 192 new threads in general..."is my rear sight backwards?!"
only 192 units left! act now :smile:
"hyper"-upgrades!!??!!
sign me up!!!
justin_247
09-21-11, 11:34
To the OP:
It's a good thing to call these folks out and then inform everybody to their responses, but you're in a losing battle by default.
Look at all of the YouTube videos with people praising their Olympic, DPMS, Blackthorne, etc. rifle. Look at all of the forum postings - even forums such as this have difficulty sorting through all of the nonsense. Even worse is the fact that the gun industry tolerates this and doesn't call out other companies on their crap, because they're more concerned about the ATF than they are about their competitors.
The vast majority of people are ignorant on these issues and, quite frankly, have little interest in learning the truth. Companies such as this one, Olympic, DPMS, etc. prey upon them. It's just a sad fact of life, and it's never going to go away.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 11:50
Shane,
Expert analysis is exactly that. The information to dispel your information is in the public domain and it will be exposed naturally. I am not going to become embroiled in a battle of wit with you.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
This document may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are on notice that any unauthorized disclosure, copying,
distribution, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the
electronically transmitted materials is prohibited.
This document may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are on notice that any unauthorized disclosure, copying,
distribution, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the
electronically transmitted materials is prohibited.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 11:51
I find the blurb he is now adding to his emails somewhat interesting.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 11:51
I was not trying to start a battle with you at all. I disagreed with some of the things that you said concerning the quality of High Standard. I disagree that High Standard builds rifles for the military because I know which rifles I have been issued. I disagree that anything High Standard makes could come close to comparing with offerings, much less exceeding said offerings, from respectable companies. I also disagree that anything that I have said in these emails or posted on the forum from these emails is false. That being said, I am human, am not all-knowing and can make mistakes so if anything that I have said is wrong, I apologize. On that note, I do not need you to correct me because I know that many of the things that you have said throughout this conversation are completely wrong. Your opinion of High Standard is very high and that is fine, but it is an opinion and a misguided one at that. Build quality is based on facts. Better materials, workmanship and quality control lead to better products, regardless of the product in question.
By the way, the posts that I have made on the forums are exact "copy and paste" from these emails and I feel that it would be beneficial for you and your superiors to have a look at the posts along with replies from actual users, so once again, just let me know if you want the link and I would be more than happy to give it to you.
One last thing, I am not going to buy the "AR-Lite" or "AR-Operator" so if these emails are keeping you from speaking with potential customers, you don't have to worry about continuing to try to convince me of the quality of your rifles. As I said early in our conversation, if your rifles were made by a company that I had some respect for, I was planning on picking one up and upgrading it with some spare parts that I have, but since it is manufactured by who it is, I am not interested in taking the chance of ordering one and be dissatisfied.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 11:52
Shane,
Once again you are incorrect in your assertions regarding High Standard and the information that you are claiming is false. It is easily dispelled through public information put forth by the US Government. Our rifle exceeds the quality of any entry level AR on the market today.
Also, we are a young company that employs 150 small town Americans working hard every day to manufacture quality products right here in the USA. That speaks volume to our commitment to quality. Certainly we have had our issues but those are growing pains any company goes through and our customers would dispel many of the postings that exist in the forum you are a part of. We are very proud to represent what is right in America and we are even more proud of putting Americans back to work and once again setting the world standard in craftsmanship.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
This document may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are on notice that any unauthorized disclosure, copying,
distribution, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the
electronically transmitted materials is prohibited.
This document may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are on notice that any unauthorized disclosure, copying,
distribution, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the
electronically transmitted materials is prohibited.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 11:52
I never said anything about the products that your company makes as I haven't used them and I don't ever gain an opinion, good or bad, about something until I have had experience with it. I never said that you worked for a bad company, nor did I say that your company does anything that I disagree with. The partnership that your company has made with High Standard, in my opinion, is a poor choice of partnership. You mentioned in a previous email that the rifle that High Standard built for USA Ammo is better than entry level rifles from BCM, Colt, LMT and Daniel Defense (the industry leaders). There are 2 problems with that statement. Those companies only offer high end rifles, so their "entry-level" is bounds ahead of other companies "top of the line" offerings. And the other problem with that statement is an entry level Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, Doublestar, Panther Arms etc (not the industry leaders) are still decent rifles for a particular niche. That niche is the weekend shooter that may only put a few hundred rounds into a paper target a year. When you start beating on those rifles using it as a tool, they fail and have to be upgraded. From my experience with High Standard (which is far from extensive, but I've had a little) tells me that an HS rifle won't even serve it's user as well as the entry-level midrange manufacturers. Now, you are dead-set on insisting that HS has a government contract. I can assure you that they do not make AR pattern rifles for the military. If they have any contract with any part of the DoD, it is a very small contract making insignificant parts. So once again, you are not going to sell me on an HS rifle.
I am assuming that since I have offered a link to the thread that lists this conversation in it's entirety along with plenty of replies from people who buy and use AR platform rifles (not trying to say they are experts, but these are the people buying things that you are trying to sell, you might want to pay attention to their thoughts/needs/wants etc.) that you are not interested in anything other than making the sell to someone that is uninformed. If you were really as sure about your product as you say you are, it would seem that you would be interested in what the buying public thinks. Then again, the business that I am in has nothing to do with sales or making customers happy so I could be completely wrong.
OK, OK. We get it. He thinks he has a good product but you don't. Let the guy get back to his job. You don't have to "prove yourself" on here by finding a company making non-spec ARs and beating them to the ground.
I think the point has been made.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 13:19
OK, OK. We get it. He thinks he has a good product but you don't. Let the guy get back to his job. You don't have to "prove yourself" on here by finding a company making non-spec ARs and beating them to the ground.
I think the point has been made.
I wasn't trying to prove myself to you. I was simply putting out some information that I thought was significant. If you don't think it is, or if it has changed your day in some way, you don't have to open this thread. Also, I wasn't beating the guy or the company to the ground. As far as I can tell by going back and reading through everything, neither him nor I have said anything in bad taste to each other, we have simply had a debate.
Guys I've watched this thread develop and quite honestly it is embarrassing to me as an American. Shane, have you held this rifle? You claim a lot of stuff in your posts and they are wrong man. Just go to this link: http://www.highstandard.com/customers.html#law
This company you are bashing has been around longer than your grand father dude and done some pretty amazing stuff. I am a member of the US military and my fellow soldiers don't run around beating up on American businesses dude. This is really disgraceful.
I bought some bad ammo from USA Ammo this summer and they stepped right up to the plate and took very good care of me, no bs or questions asked.
Did you check the urls yourself man? If you had you would be eating crow bro. The guy didn't say this rifle was the machine we carry in the desert. The e-mails posted on here clearly say it is an entry level rifle, for the beginner.
Would I buy one, probably not typically, but I want to buy one now just because of all the foolishness in this thread. Have all the facts before you start beating up on people.
The real facts are none of you guys have seen the rifle, none of you have owned a HS rifle and none of you can speak from an intelligent view point. Let's be real and stop dishing on our fellow Americans.
Leonidas24
09-21-11, 15:21
Guys I've watched this thread develop and quite honestly it is embarrassing to me as an American. Shane, have you held this rifle? You claim a lot of stuff in your posts and they are wrong man. Just go to this link: http://www.highstandard.com/customers.html#law
This company you are bashing has been around longer than your grand father dude and done some pretty amazing stuff. I am a member of the US military and my fellow soldiers don't run around beating up on American businesses dude. This is really disgraceful.
I bought some bad ammo from USA Ammo this summer and they stepped right up to the plate and took very good care of me, no bs or questions asked.
Welcome to M4C.net.
I have owned a High Standard rifle and it was NOT milspec in any way shape or form, other than the barrel contour perhaps. While the lower receiver was machined very nicely and was in spec, in the end it was, along with the rest of the rifle, sold to fund improvements being made to my SBR.
The barrel was 4140 steel, w/ M4 feed ramps. The upper was an A3 flat top w/ no feed ramps. The bolt carrier was semi-auto, and the bolt itself was not MPI/HPT. The receiver extension was commercial diameter. The FSB was not F marked. The barrel was neither MPI or HPT. The barrel was not chrome lined.
Thus High Standard's claims of adhering to the military specifications of the M4 Carbine are false as are USA Ammo's rep claiming that this rifle is used by the military and/or DOD.
Thus High Standard's claims of adhering to the military specifications of the M4 Carbine are false as are USA Ammo's rep claiming that this rifle is used by the military and/or DOD.
fwiw i dont think he actually claimed that this rifle was used by the military and/or DOD.
he only claimed that the manufacturer provides or has provided some (unspecified) goods to them.
Leonidas24
09-21-11, 15:32
fwiw i dont think he actually claimed that this rifle was used by the military and/or DOD.
he only claimed that the manufacturer provides or has provided some (unspecified) goods to them.
I stand corrected; however, supply of a .22 pistol to the OSS over 60 years ago does not give HSA a pass in this case. I believe DPMS even provided charging handles to the DOD at one point in time but that does not mean that the rest of the products measure up to the standard.
Where did the USA Ammo dude say the rifle was used by the US military? Not in any of the posts Shane put up here. Get the facts straight dude.
I've owned a HS AR in the past and it has some components that are mil spec. Is it a rifle used in combat, no. Let's face it, COLT and many other supposed superior brands advertise the same thing but they aren't mil spec if they are sold to a civilian. I liked the rifle but I've started started a family and those sort of toys are out of reach due to other obligations.
The company did not provide the URLs, and the one you posted doesn't say which components they make for the military.
I didn't bash High Standard, I do question the claims made (not by High Standard). If I say that our products are used by LE and the military, I can prove it, and will provide evidence. It's on the company that makes these statements to provide proof, and I still haven't seen any yet. Not that they do not exist, I just haven't seen them.
When asked about details of our own products, we happily answer them, we don't think it's unusual for folks to want to know what it is they may be buying, they're doing their due diligence and we typically provide more information than necessary. Personally (not as a company rep on m4c), I think it's kind of passive aggressive to say the info is out there, go find it, when the company can, and should provide it.
NoveskeFan
09-21-11, 15:32
High Standards list from the link calisgt supplied:
"A few highlights for the Military and Law enforcement throughout the past 80 years:
•WWII servicemen and beyond were trained on the High Standard 22.
•High Standard 22 pistol with slincer to the Department of Defense Office Of Strategic Studies(OSS)
•WWII Pimary contractor for 50 cal browning
•Viet-Nam war manufacture of M2 carbine slide
•One of the biggest suppliers of riot shotguns"
Please don't start this nonsense with Colt again. Colt's reputation and the sum of the parts is well known.
Where did the USA Ammo dude say the rifle was used by the US military? Not in any of the posts Shane put up here. Get the facts straight dude.
I've owned a HS AR in the past and it has some components that are mil spec. Is it a rifle used in combat, no. Let's face it, COLT and many other supposed superior brands advertise the same thing but they aren't mil spec if they are sold to a civilian. I liked the rifle but I've started started a family and those sort of toys are out of reach due to other obligations.
I stand corrected; however, supply of a .22 pistol to the OSS over 60 years ago does not give HSA a pass in this case. I believe DPMS even provided charging handles to the DOD at one point in time but that does not mean that the rest of the products measure up to the standard.
definitely agree.
Where did the USA Ammo dude say the rifle was used by the US military? Not in any of the posts Shane put up here. Get the facts straight dude.
He did not say it in so many words, but when a representative insinuates and throws out words like military, DOD, police, etc. without substantiating the claims...it gets shady. I feel like the 'burden of proof' is a lot heavier on a manufacturer, retailer, when throwing those words around.
Shane,
It is manufactured by High Standard who manufacturers for the DOD, DPMS, Armor Lite and many other well-known brands/retailers.
It will have many hyper-upgrades our fine service men and women are used to using in combat.
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
Shane,
I won’t argue with you about High Standards contracts. I am privy to their business and know that they are who they are represented to be.
Furthermore, our rifle exceeds the quality of LMT, BCM , Colt and Daniel Defense’s entry level carbines. In fact, it has the blessing of many police departments throughout the world.
Best of luck to you!
Have a great day!
XXXXX X XXXXXXXX
PA PATRIOT
09-21-11, 15:59
Maybe we should just place this into "We don't know" until someone respected by the forum reviews this rifle for what it is or is not. Could this rifle be a good buy for someone just wanting a AR for casual plinking a few times a year maybe. But on the other side the serious shooter or operator may find flaws which may make it unsuitable to their needs.
Personally I would possibly own a rifle like this to place it at a BUG out location were it only see's a few magazines of ammo a year. Would it be a primary rifle for my income bracket I doubt it but for the guy or gal making minimum wage maybe so.
The information on their AR is on the website. They have provided the same amount of information that any other manufacturer provides. Where in the e-mails did the dude refuse to provide information? More crap.
When are we as Americans going to unite and stop tearing each other apart? No wonder the Koreans are providing ammo and the Taiwanese are making guns. Let's give this a rest.
Thanks for the logical post man. These dudes in here make suckatash out of red meat. The purveyor of this gun never represented it as a machine used in the field. I know for a fact that HS makes some pretty decent rifles for bumming around with rec use. This is probably perfect for the newly crowned weekend warrior wanting to go out to the range to hang with the fellas.
The information on their AR is on the website. They have provided the same amount of information that any other manufacturer provides. Where in the e-mails did the dude refuse to provide information? More crap.
When are we as Americans going to unite and stop tearing each other apart? No wonder the Koreans are providing ammo and the Taiwanese are making guns. Let's give this a rest.
Without getting all political in terms of manufacturing, the guy didn't refuse information in the email, but again...as a rep when questioned I would offer that information without having to be asked for it...
Leonidas24
09-21-11, 16:18
The information on their AR is on the website. They have provided the same amount of information that any other manufacturer provides. Where in the e-mails did the dude refuse to provide information? More crap.
When are we as Americans going to unite and stop tearing each other apart? No wonder the Koreans are providing ammo and the Taiwanese are making guns. Let's give this a rest.
When questioned about HSA's DOD contracts, this was USA Ammo's reply:
I won’t argue with you about High Standards contracts. I am privy to their business and know that they are who they are represented to be.
and this:
The information to dispute your claims is in the public domain and easily accessible to the masses. I stand firmly behind everything I said in the e-mail string and most importantly, I stand behind the quality of High Standard who has a storied history of providing the finest quality armaments to the DOD and other government entities.
and this:
Expert analysis is exactly that. The information to dispel your information is in the public domain and it will be exposed naturally. I am not going to become embroiled in a battle of wit with you.
Essentially he has said "I know, and the information is out there, but I'm not going to tell you what it is or how to find it." And to a degree your claim that HSA provides all information on their website is correct; however, to examine such manufacturers websites such as Daniel Defense, or BCM, one discovers that the qualities of previously vetted manufacturers far exceed the manufacturing qualities of HSA or any company similar to it.
Shoulderthinggoesup
09-21-11, 16:46
[qoute%
When are we as Americans going to unite and stop tearing each other apart? No wonder the Koreans are providing ammo and the Taiwanese are making guns. Let's give this a rest.[/QUOTE]
Why the hell do you keep talking about uniting as americans? what does anything you said have to do with anything in this thread?
If a company is being disingenious I am not supporting it just because their american.....
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
The information on their AR is on the website. They have provided the same amount of information that any other manufacturer provides. Where in the e-mails did the dude refuse to provide information? More crap.
When are we as Americans going to unite and stop tearing each other apart? No wonder the Koreans are providing ammo and the Taiwanese are making guns. Let's give this a rest.
Calisgt, perhaps you should read this thread. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88634)
In a quick summary, Colt and FN are the ONLY ones who supply M4 rifles to the military (not counting some SF guys who get to use what they want)...they are also the ONLY ones who have to adhere to the TDP due to their contracts with the gov. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, thats for the end user to decide. Noveske, BCM, DD, LMT all have SOME parts that are "mil-spec", but that doesn't make them any "better" or "worse" than Colt or FN who follow the TDP....just "different". Technically, since the above four manufacturers do not follow the TDP, they can not be called "mil-spec" either...just the parts that are in "spec".
I'm sure that High Standard has SOME parts that are "mil-spec", but I would wager that QC, materials used, # of parts that are "in spec", and the craftmanship is not even close to on par with the above manufacturers. For USA Ammo to insinuate that HS is a supplier of M4 rifles to the mil (which they did whether you like it or not), is misleading, if not a lie. OR it could be that the rep that spoke with Shane just doesn't know his a$$ from a hole in the ground, is mis-lead himself, and was just defending his company while spewing misguided info. I have had good experiences with USA Ammo, but this does make one question the integrity of the people who run the company. Personally, I hope this was just a mistake on their part and they correct them soon. I WANT to see an American company succeed! God knows we need them to, but if there are those who will mislead to make a buck, then I don't want any part of them.
Being that your post count consists only what you have posted specifically in this thread, I assume you have some sort of allegiance to USA Ammo and this is the reason you are defending them so much. Fine, whatever, but don't try to play the card that we Americans are trying to tear down an American company. That won't fly and won't get you very far.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-21-11, 17:10
Calisgt is a known agent of USA AMMO. He finds negative reviews of their products, joins the forum in question, and fights with lies and "patriotism".
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk/184229-ar-lite-ar15.html
Same tones at xdtalk too :D It just made their case worse.
I suspected as much, but didn't want to say anything. I saw efforts at redirecting the focus from HSA and USA Ammo to us being unpatriotic and generally uninformed.
Calisgt is a known agent of USA AMMO. He finds negative reviews of their products, joins the forum in question, and fights with lies and "patriotism".
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk/184229-ar-lite-ar15.html
Sniffed that one on his first post...
DeltaSierra
09-21-11, 17:17
Calisgt is a known agent of USA AMMO. He finds negative reviews of their products, joins the forum in question, and fights with lies and "patriotism".
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk/184229-ar-lite-ar15.html
Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we have a winner....
Who gives a tinkers damn about whether USA Ammo is an American company or not?
I'd rather buy a high quality Chinese product rather than a poor quality American product.
Leave "patriotism" out of this discussion. The issue is whether or not USA AMMO lied about their product (they did) not what Calisgt's weird definition of patriotism is.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 17:54
Guys I've watched this thread develop and quite honestly it is embarrassing to me as an American. Shane, have you held this rifle? You claim a lot of stuff in your posts and they are wrong man. Just go to this link: http://www.highstandard.com/customers.html#law
This company you are bashing has been around longer than your grand father dude and done some pretty amazing stuff. I am a member of the US military and my fellow soldiers don't run around beating up on American businesses dude. This is really disgraceful.
I bought some bad ammo from USA Ammo this summer and they stepped right up to the plate and took very good care of me, no bs or questions asked.
Alright, so let me go buy a Ford Pinto, get rid of my Sony TV and Onkyo surround sound. While I'm at it, I'll get rid of both of my Glocks. Noone bashed USA Ammo or High Standard, and if you would have read half of the posts, you would have noticed that. I told the USA Ammo representative that I disagreed with some of the stuff he was saying, no bashing.
Did you check the urls yourself man? If you had you would be eating crow bro. The guy didn't say this rifle was the machine we carry in the desert. The e-mails posted on here clearly say it is an entry level rifle, for the beginner.
Would I buy one, probably not typically, but I want to buy one now just because of all the foolishness in this thread. Have all the facts before you start beating up on people.
The real facts are none of you guys have seen the rifle, none of you have owned a HS rifle and none of you can speak from an intelligent view point. Let's be real and stop dishing on our fellow Americans.
fwiw i dont think he actually claimed that this rifle was used by the military and/or DOD.
he only claimed that the manufacturer provides or has provided some (unspecified) goods to them.
Where did the USA Ammo dude say the rifle was used by the US military? Not in any of the posts Shane put up here. Get the facts straight dude.
I've owned a HS AR in the past and it has some components that are mil spec. Is it a rifle used in combat, no. Let's face it, COLT and many other supposed superior brands advertise the same thing but they aren't mil spec if they are sold to a civilian. I liked the rifle but I've started started a family and those sort of toys are out of reach due to other obligations.
I stated in the first post that the guy I talked to on the phone said it was the company that manufactures ARs for the military. And once again, didn't bash anyone.
calisgt, I suggest taking the opportunity to not post any more until you claw your way into getting past the idea that "made American" automatically means "made better than anybody else ever possibly could." One needs to look only to the automobile industry to see the glaring gaps in that logic.
If you choose to take the wrong decision path in this regard, the choice will be taken from you.
BREAK-BREAK
I think we can dispense with the blow-by-blow correspondence. Summarize where it may be done, especially since everything posted could just as easily been typed out in the post. Screenshots with smartly redacted PerSec info is both easy to do and harder to dispute.
Before that, perhaps we should delve quickly into something that is a bit of a mental hangnail to me at this point: If this topic isn't in regard to an actual purchase that developed into a dispute with the vendor/manufacturer.....then it's just an offshoot of the "mil-spec y/n?" dance that keeps getting done.
Maybe a touch angrier....but nothing that breaks the mold.
As it is, it amounts to somebody that just wants to make an internet argument with somebody else public for no better reason than to make it public. An email donnybrook can be just as easily done without involving M4C, unless the aim is to start a letter-writing campaign, and that ain't gonna happen under the site aegis.
Let's put a point to this. I'm seeing points of heads, but none to this thread.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-21-11, 18:00
Guys I've watched this thread develop and quite honestly it is embarrassing to me as an American. Shane, have you held this rifle? You claim a lot of stuff in your posts and they are wrong man. Just go to this link: http://www.highstandard.com/customers.html#law
This company you are bashing has been around longer than your grand father dude and done some pretty amazing stuff. I am a member of the US military and my fellow soldiers don't run around beating up on American businesses dude. This is really disgraceful.
I bought some bad ammo from USA Ammo this summer and they stepped right up to the plate and took very good care of me, no bs or questions asked.
Calisgt, I am a member of the US Military and I wouldn't let my boys buy a subpar piece of garbage simply because it was made here and not there. Thats bad leadership. Now, leave your service out of this because it doesn't matter in this situation at all and continues to make you look like you hide behind our flag to push a shitty product.
shane_huskey
09-21-11, 18:12
...
I think we can dispense with the blow-by-blow correspondence. Summarize where it may be done, especially since everything posted could just as easily been typed out in the post. Screenshots with smartly redacted PerSec info is both easy to do and harder to dispute.
...
I probably should've done screenshots, as that would've kept the thread a little shorter. Sorry about that.
...
As it is, it amounts to somebody that just wants to make an internet argument with somebody else public for no better reason than to make it public.
...
I wasn't trying to have an internet argument, nor was I making it public just to be public. Part of the reason I joined this forum (and others) was for the wealth of knowledge that is easily obtainable on this type of website. I posted what I did in hopes of other that are more knowledgeable than I am being able to verify whether or not this was a hustle and perhaps keeping someone from wasting $700 or so thinking they are getting something nicer than they are. I have always felt (and always will regardless of other's opinions) that it is the individual purchasers right to know about the product he is spending money on and in this particular case, it seems that the company is trying to mislead people in order to make some money. Yes, people will get deceived into spending too much money on subpar products, but with forums like this, it can be helped kept to a minimum and maybe one day completely abolished.
jklaughrey
09-21-11, 18:21
Thanks for the logical post man. These dudes in here make suckatash out of red meat. The purveyor of this gun never represented it as a machine used in the field. I know for a fact that HS makes some pretty decent rifles for bumming around with rec use. This is probably perfect for the newly crowned weekend warrior wanting to go out to the range to hang with the fellas.
You may find that this board doesn't cater to the backyard dirt shooter nearly as much.If you just want a rifle to show off and shoot watermelons then maybe take your show over to arfcom. Otherwise stick around,listen more, post less. many members here have opinions that should be heeded regarding the implementation and manuf.of the AR/M4/M16 variant.
Cheers
Belmont31R
09-21-11, 18:24
Dang what a goat **** of a thread.
Its pretty simple guys. Buy shit from people who build them the right way, and these types of guns being discussed in this thread come and go. Some get caught up in it, and learn the hard way.
Don't feed the trolls either. :cool:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-21-11, 18:31
Shane Huskey,
I appreciate you posting this info. Uneducated folks around other boards have inquired about this rifle, and I can use this thread to easily educate.
Failure2Stop
09-21-11, 18:39
I think all points have been made.
The truth is pretty obvious.
I am closing this down as it looks like it might be getting ugly.
If anyone has any new information to share, let a Mod know and it might get reopened.
Let me first thank LowSpeed_HighDrag for bringing calisgts' other posts to our attention.
If anyone wants to know why he has earned a temporary ban, it has nothing to with him defending HSA. It's because I did some snooping and found that his IP address comes back to Houston, TX. Which so happens to be where HSA is located. This reeks of a shill and we will not allow that to go unchecked.
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