New Build, your thoughts? [Archive]

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Jack_Stroker

11-13-07, 11:05

I'm new to the forum and somewhat new to AR's. I've had one now for about six months, and like many others I started with a Bushmaster, and now I know better. My Bushmaster will be set aside, and eventually I'll get a new upper for it and reconfigure it. I plan on making a long range rifle out of it.

My next AR Build is going to be built on a Colt 6920. I'm going to go with the Daniel Defense Omega 7.0 rails. I'll be getting a Tango Down Ergo pistol grip, and verticle grip. I've already got H&K, Beta C Mags, and a ton of G.I. contract mags. So I'm all set there. What I do have questions about are backup iron sights, and optics in general.

I already have an EOTech 553.A65 on my Bushmaster. I like it, but I've been reading all kinds of information on the Aimpoint and ACOG optics. The weapon is obviously going to be built for CQB more than anything else, and many feel the EOTech excels over the Aimpoint in this regard. So I want to hear everyones thoughts on it. If I decide not to use my EOTech 553 on my Colt, then I'll go for an Aimpoint or a ACOG. If I grab an Aimpoint, what will I need to mount it? I hear the stock mount sucks, and I like the look of the Larue mount. So if anyone has a link or part numbers that would be appreciated.

One thing that is unclear in regard to the ACOG is it's CQB performance. I hear this is the unit's primary weak spot. I know the ACOG is a magnified optic, but can it be used without magnification? Is it adjustable in that way? I've got no problems sticking with my EOTech, but I want to be sure that's the best way to go.

For the backup Iron sights, I was thinking about the ARMS 40L or the Troy. Which do you guys prefer and why? I am not interested in recommendations for fixed backup iron sights. I'm only interested in the folding ones. If there is something better than the Troy or ARMS units, I'd like to hear about them. I won't be changing the standard stock as I actually like the standard M4 style stock just fine.

Cost is not really much of a concern, so that won't have much bearing on the choices I make. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments on this.

markm

11-13-07, 11:24

Bushmaster upper halves aren't too bad.... The main problem that I've seen/read about is in the assembly, not the components. (i.e. the shooter will have to dial out all of his windage one way or another to zero)

The barrels are good. I use them all the time for my practice/training guns. The FSBs are Taper pinned on, but they aren't parked under the FSB.. not a big deal.

I'd be more concerned about the bolt group.

But anyway, buying a 6920 is not a bad idea regardless of what you already have.

Failure2Stop

11-13-07, 11:48

I have used the Aimpoint, ACOG and EoTech. Initially I thought that the Eo was the best thing running. Then I became painfully aware of it's limitations.

The EoTech automatically shuts off after 8 hours. This is not a problem if you are only going to use the optic on range-guns or for limited, known-time employment. However, you can't just leave it on and expect the reticle to be there when you need it. The 553 is the best one right now, as many of the durability issues have been rectified. Still, the battery life is not one of it's strong points, and the mount interface is not topping my list for things I want to hug.

The ACOGs are not adjustable. They suck at close range in variable light conditions. Most people will never employ the optic in these environments, so this may be a non-issue. It can be used at close range, but nowhere nearly as efficiently as a non-magnified optic. Big problems when used in conjunction with white-light indoors. This is why everyone (including Trijicon) started putting Dr Optics on top of them. Its pretty much an admission by the company that the sight sucks at close range. The optic is one of the best 50 to 300 yard daylight optics, though mainly due to durability. They are durable, but just as with any other optic, they too have issues and QC variability. If they were half the price and came with the Dr Optic standard they would be an ok buy in my opinion.

The Aimpoints are the best in my book. 99/100ths as fast as the EoTech (for me), with much better durability and battery life. I just leave mine on 8 all the time. In a LaRue cantilever the dot sits above my fixed sights (lower 1/3 cowitness). With the addition of a 3x magnifier, the optic is just as capable of hits out to 300, or target ID as the ACOG. I recommend either the standard or cantilever LaRue mounts. You can get a package deal from lots of places, including site sponsors G&R Tactical (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APM2CM)(who I like to support as Grant supports this site and provides constant information flow without trying to sell you anything).

By having a fixed BUIS I don't ever have to think about flipping up my BUIS, as it's already up but out of my sight picture. I like it that way, though you apparently do not. I like the Troy flip-up, but many of my friends swear by the ARMS. You could definately do worse.

It's not THE way, just A way.

rob_s

11-13-07, 11:55

Take a look at the Compact ACOGs. I've been running the 1.5x and 3x quite happily for some time now.

losbronces

11-13-07, 12:03

I already have an EOTech 553.A65 on my Bushmaster. I like it, but I've been reading all kinds of information on the Aimpoint and ACOG optics. The weapon is obviously going to be built for CQB more than anything else, and many feel the EOTech excels over the Aimpoint in this regard. So I want to hear everyones thoughts on it. If I decide not to use my EOTech 553 on my Colt, then I'll go for an Aimpoint or a ACOG. If I grab an Aimpoint, what will I need to mount it? I hear the stock mount sucks, and I like the look of the Larue mount. So if anyone has a link or part numbers that would be appreciated.

One thing that is unclear in regard to the ACOG is it's CQB performance. I hear this is the unit's primary weak spot. I know the ACOG is a magnified optic, but can it be used without magnification? Is it adjustable in that way? I've got no problems sticking with my EOTech, but I want to be sure that's the best way to go.

For the backup Iron sights, I was thinking about the ARMS 40L or the Troy. Which do you guys prefer and why? I am not interested in recommendations for fixed backup iron sights. I'm only interested in the folding ones. If there is something better than the Troy or ARMS units, I'd like to hear about them. I won't be changing the standard stock as I actually like the standard M4 style stock just fine.

Cost is not really much of a concern, so that won't have much bearing on the choices I make. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments on this.

Well, I have an EOTech 512, an ACOG and an Aimpoint M4C. I bought the Aimpoint after an extensive amount of reading here. You should do a search on Aimpoint and then EOTech and you will see there are many comments regarding the relative merits of each. I have a 4x ACOG and it is absolutely not suitable for close work. I bought the Aimpoint recently after reading here. The Aimpoint can be left on all the time and has an amazing battery life. The EOTech will shut off automatically (after 4 or 8 hours) and that could be a problem for some people.

I ordered my Aimpoint directly from Larue Tactical because it came with a Larue mount for the same price that everyone else is offerring the M4 with the Aimpoint mount. I also have a Larue mount for the ACOG. The Larue mounts offer quick release with a very good return to zero on reinstallation. If you do the searches you will see where an Aimpoint rep was doing some testing by throwing the Aimpoint downrange. I have ordered a lot from G&R Tactical as well, Grant generally gives you something extra with your purchase.

Larue is: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Categories.bok?category=Optic+and+Mount+Combos%3AAimpoint

G&R is:http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&keywords=optic+not+mount

I use the Tango Down folding sights. I don't have any issues with them and they will cowitness with either the EOTech or the Aimpoint sights. But again there are other people with a lot more experience with these than me, so again I recommend a search of this site.

I really recommend that you do the searches though. You will find advice from very knowledgeable people who have seen the various sights in action through classes, competiion, etc.

Jack_Stroker

11-13-07, 12:19

Well I've definitely been reading here and other forums as well on the subject of optics. That's why I'm leaning toward getting an Aimpoint. I've been thinking about adding a magnifier with one of those flip to the side mounts for the best of both worlds as well.

mpardun

11-13-07, 12:46

I have been using a LaRue Aimoint M4 for 3 weeks after 5 years of using EOTech product (pre-L3).

While the EOTech's never let me down personally, I am finding the M4 extremely well built, easy to acquire the sight picture and more accurate than my EOTech's generally speaking.

The electronics side of things cinches it for me, hard to argue with an 8 year battery life and no "time out" feature!

IMHO, the EO & Aimpoint magnifiers are like looking through a toiletpaper roll...FOV sucks! If you want magnification, go for a S&B, Swaro or Meopta 1 - n type scope.

I am personally using a Swaro Z6i 1 - 6x on by 18' SPR and love it - it is a true 1x, very bright and FOV is awesome. The M4 lives happily on a 10.5 SBR.

Mike

Jack_Stroker

11-13-07, 12:58

Well as I said, CQB performance is of the most concern to me. I'll be building a seperate longer range AR out of the Bushmaster I have now.

rayray

11-13-07, 13:03

mpardun

11-13-07, 13:06

It's not even close IMHO. Too many ARMS products have fallen apart over the years to give them any new business. Not sure I understand why they are a preferred route for DOD contracts - must be next to free, because they are not the best of the vreed by any measure.

Troy BUIS' are the best in my opinion...but then we all know what people say about opinions :-)

I'm waiting (impatiently now for 2 months) on a set of Flat Dark Earth Troy's for my SBR...now made even better that they take AR sight posts instead of AK!

Jack_Stroker

11-13-07, 14:48

My Bushmaster has given me years of reliable service, best AR i have ever owned. I'm not saying that it's the best brand out there. I'm just saying that for the price, I'm really happy with my Bushmaster.

Mine has been great too for the most part. I've had a few failures to feed on occasion but nothing serious. However, I am wanting to get a Colt because I want something that I can surely count on for self-defense as well as something I can take to the training classes and put $1,000+ rounds through in a short period of time without fail. Basically it boils down to this: I can afford a Colt, so why not have one?

toddackerman

11-17-07, 00:54

Well as I said, CQB performance is of the most concern to me. I'll be building a seperate longer range AR out of the Bushmaster I have now.

Then Aimpoint is the way to go. I use the Comp M3 with Troy Front and Rear BUIS. Co-witnesses perfecty.

The Aimpoint will relably hit at 200 yds, which is more than enough for a CQB rifle. The magnifier will only add weight and complexity to your kit. They're nice, but not necessary unless you think you'd need something for past 200 yds., or if you anticipate using it for 3 gun matches that go from 5 - 400 yds.

For dedicated longer ranges, I would not go with the RDS and magnifier. I would stick with a traditional scope setup. I prefer Leupold scopes after having 6 or so, with no problems at all.

Jack_Stroker

11-18-07, 10:01

Then Aimpoint is the way to go. I use the Comp M3 with Troy Front and Rear BUIS. Co-witnesses perfecty.

The Aimpoint will relably hit at 200 yds, which is more than enough for a CQB rifle. The magnifier will only add weight and complexity to your kit. They're nice, but not necessary unless you think you'd need something for past 200 yds., or if you anticipate using it for 3 gun matches that go from 5 - 400 yds.

For dedicated longer ranges, I would not go with the RDS and magnifier. I would stick with a traditional scope setup. I prefer Leupold scopes after having 6 or so, with no problems at all.

Yeah I think you are correct. I like my setup nice and simple. I'll look into the Aimpoint and see if I like it better than the EOTech. There is a gunshow today so I'll just go and check them out. One thing concerning the EOTech is accuracy. My Colt and EOTech are a lethal combination thus far. I went shooting outdoors with it yesterday and I was able to get pretty exact hits at 100 yards or so very easily wherever I put the dot. If I switch out the EOTech for any reason it will be because the Aimpoint's easier to use. The brightness, on/off control on the EOTech can be kind of a pain especially while wearing gloves.

What I want to know is this: What is the real difference between the Comp M3 and Comp M4? Is there any reason to spend the extra $200 or so on the M4? I'm not SWAT, I'm not military, and I'm just an average Joe who wants a rifle that can be counted on for everything, including heavy training sessions.

BushmasterFanBoy

11-18-07, 16:53

rob_s

11-18-07, 16:59

taking you a second to correct your cheek weld and get the dot in view.
You must be using a different Aimpoint than me. You should not need to adjust your cheekweld to get the dot in view. In fact, that's one of the main selling points of red dot optics.

toddackerman

11-18-07, 17:23

I prefer the Eotech for closer work. I have no reason why so many here dislike them. I've never had any issues with mine, and its easier to acquire and shoot than my ML2. I just think the Eotech offers the best of both worlds, a good 1moa dot for precision and a 65moa ring for close shooting. The aimpoint dot sometimes gets "lost" in the tube if you draw the gun up fast enough, sometimes taking you a second to correct your cheek weld and get the dot in view. I think they are good optics and I love mine, not to mention the battery life is great. It's just that the Eotech does everything better. One set of AA batteries (I use the 512) and you have another 1000 hours of life. I also don't think the 8 hour shutoff is a bad feature. Given the Eotech's shorter battery life, I'd rather have it conserved so it isn't wasted, then to have to press a button. (Besides if the situation is that dire, and that rapid, wouldn't you use the Eotech hood and point shoot anyways?) I also have mine mounted on my LaRue rail, so I can almost adjust it without my hand leaving the VFG. IMHO, I'd probably take an Eotech over an Aimpoint any day, give me a second set of batteries and there is no question at all to begin with.

Here's why I don't prefer EOTech's...

After about 2,000 rounds my 512 Rev. F went TU. Just shut off in the middle of a training run. I had to power it back up to get going again. I thought..."OK, this is one of those situations where a "Machine" had a Hiccup. However, it caused me to lose sleep. About 500 rounds later...same thing. OK...now I'm on the verge of paranoia, so.......

I contacted EOTech customer service, which although very helpful...were NOT surprised about my issue. They said that the battery case had an inherant "Flaw" by not having powerful enough springs to absorb "All" of the recoil over time, and that is why the Optic failed. They immediately offered (and did) send me a new battery case with "Upgraded" springs that are suppose to alleviate this issue.

OK...great customer service. What's my issue??? It's the fact that nowhere has EOTech done a recall on the 512F or any other EOTech that uses this same battery cover. And FWIW...I am on their mailing list, and stay very current on the EOTech FAQ's posted here and elsewhere. This is not a responsible position in my mind from a company who knows darn well that these are "Life Saving" devices!

Simple enough. And that is why I went to an Aimpoint Comp M3.

I have about 2000 rounds on my Aimpoint and it's just as fast as the EOTech. And, IMO...it's much easier to hit at distances like 200 yds. because you don't have all that glowing Red in your optic (Meaning...the circle around the dot.) As far as "Cheek Weld"...I couldn't disagree more for my physical build and applications. I bring the weapon up, and the Red Dot is right there. It is also just as fast IMO as the EOTech from 5 - 50 yds. I really don't know why some disagree with this, but as always....YMMV.

All in all, I am a very happy Aimpoint convert.

Hopefully, you can now understand at least one reason that EOTech gets some "Flack" around here. There are other issues, but this one is mine.

Tack

Jay Cunningham

11-18-07, 17:34

This is why everyone (including Trijicon) started putting Dr Optics on top of them. Its pretty much an admission by the company that the sight sucks at close range.

FYI a guy was running one of these in the Hackathorn/Vickers low light class and it was sucking - LAV commented on its unsuitability several times.

Jack_Stroker

11-18-07, 17:54

I'm new to Aimpoints in general, and I did some longer shooting with my EOTech yesterday than I have ever done in the past. I shot for probably 5 hours or so and I never had it shut down on me.

I was using an Midwest Industries BUIS and currently I'm trying out an A.R.M.S. 40L low profile BUIS. With the MI BUIS I had more trouble reaching the controls on my EOTech 553.A65. Using the A.R.M.S. unit I do not have this problem. Additionally, the EOTech certainly is accurate enough to get the job done. As for durability, I have little insight to offer as I have no intention of smashing or even attempting to damage the EOTech just to find out. I used shooting gloves part of the time yesterday and I found that they can make working with the EOTech more difficult.

Basically I don't care about the EOTech auto shutdown feature or the lack of battery power. What matters to me are the issues with the controls, and reliability, as well as accuracy. So far my only complaint about the EOTech stems from the controls.

I did check out some Aimpoints at the gun show today and they really didn't have the Comp M3 or M4 wich are the ones I'm really interested in, but I did check out an ML2. I liked it, and I checked to make sure I could effectively use it with both eyes open and even though I'm right handed and left eye-dominant, it seemed to work for me. Unfortunately, the demo's batteries were either not present or dead, and I didn't get to check the unit out powered on. So I can't really compare it a whole lot to the EOTech unit. I also did some checking online and compared to the Aimpoints, the EOTech 553.A65 seems to be rated for greater submersible depths in water. (Not that I would actually test either one this way.) Another thing I liked about the EOTech is the field of view. Looking down the tube even with both eyes felt confining. I don't know how else to explain it. I clearly need more time with the Aimpoint.

So far I have it broken down like this:

EOTech Pros:
Already own one.
Fast target aquisition.
Exceptional accuracy.
1 MOA dot (I actually like this, but I probably wouldn't without the 65MOA ring.)
No additional mounting hardware needed or required.
Perfect co-whitnessing.

EOTech Cons:
Terrible battery life. (Two lithium in my case.)
Auto shutdown feature. (Not a huge problem for me at present.)
Somewhat clumsy controls.
Many claim that it is less durable than their Aimpoint competitors.

Aimpoint Pros:
Fast target aquisition. (Though slightly slower than the EOTech from what I hear.)
Exceptional accuracy. (According to everyone I've spoken to on the subject.)
2 or 4 MOA dot options. (This is nice since it doesn't have the 65MOA ring.)
Perfect co-whitnessing.
Extremely durable. (More so than the EOTechs from what others have said.)
Extremely long battery life.

Aimpoint Cons:
Maybe slightly slower than the EOTech for target aquisition.
No 65MOA ring (I've really come to like this feature on the EOTech.)
Additional mounting hardware preffered.
I don't own one and therefore I would need to purchase one, and then add the cost of the mounting hardware.

Not really sure what I'll do yet, but I do know I'll be using the EOTech 553.A65 a little longer while I do more research. Too bad I can't just try one out for a week or so then compare it to the EOTech afterward.

TWR

11-20-07, 15:53

Jack_Stroker

11-20-07, 18:35

When you get to play with a lit aimpoint mounted on a gun, close the front cover and then tell us again about field of view. When used properly, you can close the front cover and make hits using your left eye for taget ID and your mind will place the dot on the target. It sounds odd but that's how it works, field of view is unlimited.

I wouldn't tell anyone to sell what they got and buy something else but I had 3 eo-techs and am a happy aimpoint convert. YMMV

I'll give that a try. I have read similar comments from someone else on another forum so I'll have to test that for myself.

I ended up going with the A.R.M.S BUIS and I like the clearance it provides for messing with the EOTech's controls. I'm not worried about breakage. If ever it does break, then I'll just buy a Troy instead. The build is basically done, I'm just mulling over the decision to switch to an Aimpoint and I'm also trying to decide on a light for this thing.

My Daniel Defense Omeaga rails came in and I couldn't have been more impressed by them. I'm very happy with my purchase. They look great, fit great and feel great with the verticle foregrip attached.

When I'm feeling a little less lazy I'll post some pics of the new AR.