View Full Version : The "KISS Carbine" is a Hoax
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 15:04
Yeah, you heard me. Go over to TOS and you'll see pic threads of bare-bones stripped down, superlight retro-clones. They are KISS carbines, and by virtue of their utter simplicity they are supposed to be good.
Well, if something is so simple that it's capability is marginal, is it still a good thing? Because it is simple? I think not.
I bought into this like a lot of others, I tried a Colt Sporter lightweight and put tritium sights and a carry strap and the usual. I bought into the idea that the carbine needed to be KISS, instead of understanding that one needs to adhere to the principle of KISS rather than make the rifle the physical embodiment of it.
An Aimpoint optic is superior to iron sights (even night sights) in every area that matters. They are extremely reliable and rugged. They are, in fact, KISS.
A 2 point adjustable sling, such as the Vickers model, is essentially just as simple as a parade carry strap but gives much enhanced functionality. It is, in fact, KISS.
Picatinny rails are an incredibly easy and versatile way to attach things to your long gun. They stay put and don't break. They are, in fact, KISS.
A white light on your gun is absolutely essential for locating and identifying potential threats in low-light. SF lights and some others are super-rugged and have long battery lives. They are, in fact, KISS.
Guys looking to have the ultimate lightweight 5.5 lb AR are deluding themselves because they are probably sacrificing capability. While lightweight is nice, I would rather tote a few extra ounces or lbs. if that means my carbine is a more effective weapon.
Keep It Elegant Stupid.
:eek:
Not everyone is going to be clearing houses in the dead of night. If it is just a range rifle then why add 30 pounds to a superbly lightweight platform. The flashlight is the only addition I'd put on a Patrol rifle, dont need a rail system for that. The Aimpoint is superior to iron sights untill a battery fails or it takes a heavy impact and breaks. I know unlikely but even Scandinavian tech fails every now and then. We tend to rely too hevily on Technology and when it fails we dont have the basic skills to continue the fight.
Nathan_Bell
11-13-07, 15:21
I made that point on TOS and was slammed, these guys want their barebones rigs and will not admit that they are sacrificing utility. Heck, I have had people argue with me the need for lights and slings. :rolleyes:
Jack_Stroker
11-13-07, 15:26
I have to agree with the original poster. Anything that works well, or makes usage of the weapon easier, is a welcome addition. The fact is that the technology now available to us makes these weapons far better than they were originally designed to be.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 15:28
Not everyone is going to be clearing houses in the dead of night. If it is just a range rifle then why add 30 pounds to a superbly lightweight platform. The flashlight is the only addition I'd put on a Patrol rifle, dont need a rail system for that. The Aimpoint is superior to iron sights untill a battery fails or it takes a heavy impact and breaks. I know unlikely but even Scandinavian tech fails every now and then. We tend to rely too hevily on Technology and when it fails we dont have the basic skills to continue the fight.
I am not talking about range rifles. If you do need to clear a structure I hope you aren't grabbing your Oly plinker.
Wasn't this the post you were threatening to put up several weeks ago? I came here then looking for it an couldn't find it. ;)
I have a so-called KISS rifle. It's a Colt 6520 that is basically stock. As you said, it has a duckbill grip, a front side sling attachment point, and a tritium front post. I was looking at ways to attach a light to the M4 handguards I put on it but lost interest as other things gained my attention for now.
Ultimately KISS for me is about three things; weight, cost, and simplicity (in terms of less things to break). For me it's not about "instead of" but "in conjunction with." I think there's a place for the accessorized gun and a place for the KISS. If forced to choose, I'd always take the optioned-up model, but I still think the streamlined model has merit as well.
Weight:
Yes, we all know that a DD 7.0 rail weighs less than a set of M4 handguards, but not when you start bolting things to it. There is alot to be said for a lightweight rifle when you're toting it alot a shooting it a little. Scenarios like post-hurricane protection come to mind, but you can imagine your own I'm sure.
Cost:
When optioned up with lights an whiz-bangs, even the most miserly of ARs of acceptable quality are over $2k. Compare that to a mostly stock 6520 for $1k plus maybe $100 in accessories and that's a big deal. Whether you're concerned with theft or confiscation, there's something to be said for giving up $1k vs. $2k+.
Simplicity:
Optics fail. Batteries die. Rails come loose. Yes, my tritium dot may burn out, but the sight itself continues to work. Yes, the handguards may crack, but the barrel doesn't come loose in the process.
This is all amplified in the context of where you and I first discussed this; akforums.net. Especially so from the cost aspect. If I can choose to have a $500 AK as a "trunk gun" rather than a $3k AR, I'll take it. As the probability that I'll need a firearm increases, my willingness to risk the financial investment increases as well. This is how I justify a $2k semi-custom 1911 on my belt BTW. ;)
Ultimately though, I think that most people that are into KISS have different motivations than the majority of users on this site. From what I remember on TOS the majority of the KISS and retro forum posters just seemed to want to have something cool to post pictures of on the web, and to enjoy just plinking away with. Why begrudge them that? If they wander into the "bolt 10k things to your gun" section and belittle your choice in tactical accessories why not just ignore them and be secure in knowing that your firearm setup meets your needs?
For me, there's all of the rationales and such, but ultimately there's just something fun about running a basically stock 6520 in a match or a class and beating people with $3k worth of gun hanging from their sling. In a carbine class I took last year, I was shooting a $3k optioned-up Colt, and there was a guy next to me with a $800 20" A2 Bushmaster making better and faster hits than me at every single drill.
I disagree. There's just as many gear Queers over on TOS as there are here or anywhere else.
Most of those guys build an Ultra KISS as one of MANY ARs they own.
On the other hand I agree with you in that I view my Carbeans as KISS, and they are outfitted with White lights and Israeli slings.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 15:30
I disagree. There's just as many gear Queers over on TOS as there are here or anywhere else.
Most of those guys build an Ultra KISS as one of MANY ARs they own.
On the other hand I agree with you in that I view my Carbeans as KISS, and they are outfitted with White lights and Israeli slings.
Having an Ultra KISS as one of many for fun purposes or for a collection is ok in my book. But that's not what I'm talking about in this instance.
For me, there's all of the rationales and such, but ultimately there's just something fun about running a basically stock 6520 in a match or a class and beating people with $3k worth of gun hanging from their sling. In a carbine class I took last year, I was shooting a $3k optioned-up Colt, and there was a guy next to me with a $800 20" A2 Bushmaster making better and faster hits than me at every single drill.
That's what I love. I take my basic bean (by basic, I mean light and sling) out to class, and am NO worse off than anyone else out there with an overbred gizmo gun.
Having an Ultra KISS as one of many for fun purposes or for a collection is ok in my book. But that's not what I'm talking about in this instance.
Gotcha.
It's like alot of other things in life. What matters is how are you using whatever item and whether or not you even need it or what you need to add to make it more effective for you.
Yes it's great to have collector's/display, etc. piece to reflect back on simple times or to just have fun at the range. It doesn't mean that it won't work in certain settings, but that's where it ends.
It's like a Police duty belt 30 years ago and look at one now.
Mark
I think a bare bones iron sighted gun has it's place. It's nice to break out my very basic 20" A2 just to shoot and to play with iron sights once in a while. They are good for going over the gun's basics with new shooters. So the place they have isn't really practical, just basic and nostalgic.
I just don't really get the KISS concept either for a practical gun. If all my fancy stuff breaks, I'm reduced to a bare bones level but still left with a working gun.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 16:32
I think a bare bones iron sighted gun has it's place. It's nice to break out my very basic 20" A2 just to shoot and to play with iron sights once in a while. They are good for going over the gun's basics with new shooters.
Agreed.
KISS has a legitimate place
They are good for informal shooting when you just want to go out and enjoy yourself.
They cost less and are more effective as a "hand out" gun.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 17:50
KISS has a legitimate place
They are good for informal shooting when you just want to go out and enjoy yourself.
They cost less and are more effective as a "hand out" gun.
All guns have "their place."
I am only referring to carbines intended for serious purposes.
I like the other name, "Truck/ Trunk/ Accord Wagon Gun", which isn't used as often anymore. The main idea behind it's build is so you can keep it in your vehicle and if stolen, it won't sting as much.
I base my two AR's based on my skill and experiences and needs and what I come up with is what works for me... if it falls into a kiss category or not.. I could give to shits....
I used Irons long before an Aimpoint and would never go back to Irons after experiencing the utility, speed and reliability of a red dot.
A white light is a must
for me I like VFG's, they make operating and employing my guns more natural and help me to control them better
Since Uncle Sam has been issuing rails and they help make the gun more modular.. I use them.. I never met a handgaurd I liked on a AR anyhow... and since when has a rail caused a failure. Hell, if anything, rails help to dissipate barrel heat way better then a plastic/aluminum hand guard that surounds the barrel.
If all your ever going to do is have a range toy/plinker.... then it really does not matter what you have or what it is...... and those ar the last guys in the world that I would listen to anyhow.......
Most need a KISS gun cause there lack of training or anything remotely considered to be skill does not allow them to enjoy some of the better add ons anyhow.
KintlaLake
11-13-07, 18:24
KISS is an attitude, not a tool.
KISS means choosing what's necessary to perform the task at hand -- and "what's necessary" depends both on the task and on the person doing the choosing.
KISS has been hijacked by anti-technology and anti-pimping types trying to convince the the rest of the world that less is always better -- which it isn't, of course.
KISS, in the context of motor vehicles, has nothing to do with carburetors and radial tires and luggage racks -- so it might follow that KISS, in the context of defensive weapons, has nothing necessarily to do with iron sights and lights and rails...
Carbines with A1 sights, no mounted lights, no VFGs, etc. have been getting it done in
"social settings" for years.
Give me a Maglite and an A1 style carbine and I will get the job done because it's more about mindset and the will to come out on top. Mindset will separate a person from 90% of the people out there.
There are less things that can go wrong equipment-wise with a so-called KISS setup. There can be no denying that.
That said, my primary gun has a piston upper, Aimpoint, Surefire light, and an Aimpoint magnifier with a LaRue mount.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 18:52
KISS is an attitude, not a tool.
KISS means choosing what's necessary to perform the task at hand -- and "what's necessary" depends both on the task and on the person doing the choosing.
KISS has been hijacked by anti-technology and anti-pimping types trying to convince the the rest of the world that less is always better -- which it isn't, of course.
KISS, in the context of motor vehicles, has nothing to do with carburetors and radial tires and luggage racks -- so it might follow that KISS, in the context of defensive weapons, has nothing necessarily to do with iron sights and lights and rails...
We are tracking the same.
Which is simpler to use, an Aimpoint or iron sights? The Aimpoint is simpler.
Which is simpler to use, the carry strap or an adjustable 2 point sling? The carry strap sucks for both carrying the rifle and especially for transitioning. The adjustable two point is simpler.
Is shooting a long gun with a hand held light simpler than shooting with a mounted light? The weapon light is simpler.
See, the KISS principle works.
Which is simpler to use...
Which is simpler to use...
There are two KISS concepts. Mechanical and operational. You're talking about operational, which usually means more complicated mechanics.
Give me a Maglite and an A1 style carbine and I will get the job done because it's more about mindset and the will to come out on top. Mindset will separate a person from 90% of the people out there.
I agree. For the sake of this thread, the goodies are going to help make things easier/ more simple for the shooter. It isn't as much about what a person can do with a basic set up, it is about how much easier it is to do the same task with a better set up.
Bolt_Overide
11-13-07, 19:15
I guess Im sort of in the middle on this. I like a good optic, I like a free float rail so I can get the improved accuracy, and the option of adding things I might want/need. But I look at some folks weapons that have everything but a spork on it and wonder if they have ever toted a weapon on a 30k ruck march...
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 19:42
There are two KISS concepts. Mechanical and operational. You're talking about operational, which usually means more complicated mechanics.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. To quote myself:
...the idea that the carbine needed to be KISS, instead of understanding that one needs to adhere to the principle of KISS rather than make the rifle the physical embodiment of it.
Functional elegance.
There is alot to be said for a lightweight rifle when you're toting it alot a shooting it a little. Scenarios like post-hurricane protection come to mind, but you can imagine your own I'm sure.
There it is. Clint Smith is fond of pointing out how, in every rifle class he teaches, the "optioned-up" rifles begin shedding things as the week progresses, and their owners get tired of humping the extra weight.
I did the SWAT thing for many years, actually before such goodies as vertical foregrips, laser aimers, et. al. We got by just fine with a white light and an AimPoint 5000 on our issue 6520s. Over half the of the three platoons are still using those rifles, with newer AimPoints on the A2 uppers. After a heart attack side-lined me in 2001, I turned in my state issue gear and foolishly sold my personal SP1 carbine.
Katrina showed me the idiocy of that move. So I picked up another carbine (BM with an A2 upper) and kept it simple; white light and sling. I stumbled across one hell of a deal on a NIB 6520 not long ago, and it too has a white light and sling; nada mas.
I'm no longer an "operator"; the purpose of my rifle/s is to repel boarders, at end-of-the-driveway distances or just beyond. Irons work just fine for that, even with my failing eyes. And I can carry it all day with little fatigue factor, despite being in my mid-fifties and without nearly the stamina I once had. KISS.
We hosted the LETC here last week. I attended one of Ben Kurota's one-day rifle classes, with my KISS 6520. There were perhaps a half-dozen TOTALLY ninja'd-out carbines (one, being dragged around by a female from some New York corrections agency, must have weighed twelve pounds at least) with the rest of us ranging from bone-stock A2s to a few goodies like my rifle. Several of the "optioned-up" rifles' owners were definitely slowing down at the end of the day, particularly during the malf drills. Maybe they were out of shape; or maybe the extra weight was kicking their asses.
Whatever. As some have said, its your rifle; do with it what suits you. Don't belittle those who make different choices, though. The fellow to my immediate left was in his late fifties, with a bone-stock A2 upper Bushmaster; and I for damn sure wouldn't want to face off against him.
.
I have a 16" A1 sighted "KISS" carbine that resides in my truck. I do not consider it an optimal fighting configuration, and its not even my choice for my go-to M4.
I want to have an AR with me where ever I go, and the one thats in my truck is not going to be one of my expensive HS/LD tools for a very simple reason. Vehicle theft as well as vehicle burglary are very popular in Arizona. If despite all my precautions Im out a rifle Id rather be out the relatively inexpensive carbine I have in my truck. Unlike people that pick AKs, SKSs or lever guns for their truck gun, I still have the excellent ergonomics of the AR platform as well as the muscle memory.
Once again, I dont think the "KISS" concept is optimal for any application, but it is function and is another tool the box for me. Ive tested it both in daylight and dark, at close range and out to 250yds and feel confident I can make effective use of it.
That said, many of the proponents of this format of gun either like them for nostalgia purposes or because they either fear or dont understand technological advances or the ability to use them efficiently. Unfortunately they tend to lay that personal deficiency on the rest of us that can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I find it odd for any of us to be totally biased against the concept when so many of us have told beginners that have ernestly asked "what should I get?" to start out simple, learn your gun, learn your irons and go from there.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 20:20
If any of you think that I am saying that a "jocked up" rifle will compensate for something then you have missed my point or I haven't communicated it clearly.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-07, 20:21
That said, many of the proponents of this format of gun either like them for nostalgia purposes or because they either fear or dont understand technological advances or the ability to use them efficiently. Unfortunately they tend to lay personal that deficiency on the rest of us that can walk and chew gum at the same time.
+1
That's what I'm talking about.
CarlosDJackal
11-13-07, 20:37
I agree with you guys. A parallax-free red dot scope like the Aimpoints ARE simpler to use than iron sights. This, by its very nature, makes it a lot more "KISS". It is also a lot more "KISS" to teach someone how to use the Aimpoint than the iron sights.
I did not realize this until I thaught a former co-worker how to shoot for the first time. I had her shoot my carbine first because of the availability limitation of the rifle range (until sundown). By accident, it turns out that doing this was a very huge help to teaching her how to shoot period. The transition to the handgun was surprisingly a lot easier.
ADDED: I do still believe in the importance of learning how to use the iron sights along with any optics.
As for the fallacy of the iron-sighted rifle being superior; all you have to do is to try and shoot in complete darkness to understand the superiority of a decent red dot optic. YMMV.
If it has a dedicated light (if thats still a KISS rifle) I don't see a problem. Good skill sets and ability to use your irons effectively I would feel very well protected in most situations as far as SHTF senarios w/ a KISS rifle.
I am not talking about range rifles. If you do need to clear a structure I hope you aren't grabbing your Oly plinker. No I wouldnt own a Oly at all. If I need to clear a house it would be my Armalite Middy A-4 with a EO Tech but even then I wouldnt feel under gunned with a A2 or A1, Its what I trained with in the service and I think I could do as well with either. In fact the next rifle I order is probably going to be a standard A2 20" rifle.
Matt Edwards
11-13-07, 22:39
It would depend on your defineitions of KISS.
Both my guns are Colt 6920s. They both have BUISs, KAC rails, SF 6Ps with mounts, a red dot optic and a 2 point adjustable sling. I consider them bare bones "Joe" guns. To me, they are KISS compatible.
If you have an AR with out anything on it, I call it a "Sgt Barns" gun.
Just to play devil's advocate, you have to admit that KISS rifles have been getting the job done for many many many years.;)
Failure2Stop
11-14-07, 05:19
The KISS principle is about being streamlined and simple. It's not about relinquishing capability.
The concept, to me, manifests itself in choosing the best item that performs multiple tasks. It is about balance and usability. I look at it as a performance/execution methodology versus a gear selection concept (as Kinta said).
Why aren't these "KISS Rifle" builders also buying KISS computers or KISS vehicles? The KISS equivalent of my computer is a typewriter. I am far more proficient with my computer than I am with a typewriter, and I have far greater capability. The KISS vehicle is a bicycle, or a pair of boots. I am pretty good at walking and running, but I would much rather drive 50 miles than hump it.
In darkness, I can perform well with just a white light and iron sights, as long as the target is within 50m. I can perform much better with PVS15s and an IR laser/flood at much greater distances. My capability is expanded, thus my mission is easier to accomplish. Being simpler in my gear selection would not benefit me in this circumstance.
Simple fear of batteries is no reason to aviod or adore a certain sighting system. Batteries are a way of life, and when the Chinese zombie hordes begin their assault on small towns throughout America, I am sure that even the most pathetic TOS mall ninja will be able to locate some cr123s, AAs, or a DL1/3N somewhere. If not, you should still have a BUIS, right?
Robb Jensen
11-14-07, 05:23
Just to play devil's advocate, you have to admit that KISS rifles have been getting the job done for many many many years.;)
For many years people rode horses which are still decent transportation...................wisely many have moved on and use horseless carriages now.
KISS is a relative term, one persons KISS is one thing...............and isn't necessarily another persons version of KISS. KISS is what works for you...............you can't speak for me.
One thing is for sure.............if you aren't running a red dot optic, then you're living in the dark ages.
One thing is for sure.............if you aren't running a red dot optic, then you're living in the dark ages.
Perhaps.
Does that make me helpless?
I don't think so...:rolleyes:
.
Robb Jensen
11-14-07, 05:49
Perhaps.
Does that make me helpless?
I don't think so...:rolleyes:
.
Helpless? Not at all. As long as you understand that a red dot optic (like an Aimpoint) is better than sights, sights are surely simple but you'll be hard pressed to 'take out/break' an Aimpoint M4. The purpose of the Aimpoint is purely speed not shooting 1" groups or qualifying at 500yds. More on speed.....I think it was Clint Smith who said something to this effect. "The amount of time you have in a gunfight is the rest of your life!". You may not get anything from that quote. What I get is 'you need to be fast and you need to be accurate'. With sights I am actually more accurate than Aimpoints. With Aimpoints I can get 'acceptable accuracy' meaning COM hits but I can do it twice (sometimes even faster) as fast.
"Time is life!"--Travis Haley (aka Simplydynamic and owner of SDI Tactical (www.sditactical.com))
"We need to get over the romance of aligning sights and get to the business of shooting smelly bearded men in the face more efficiently."--Pat Rogers
Using iron sights in an optic world is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
I know a few people who don't have computers, cell phones or email.............simple yes, helpless no. They simply refuse to adapt to the times.
Failure2Stop
11-14-07, 05:51
Maybe they should rename their "KISS" carbines something more appropriate. . .
Amish Carbines :rolleyes:
Robb Jensen
11-14-07, 05:59
Maybe they should rename their "KISS" carbines something more appropriate. . .
Amish Carbines :rolleyes:
I like it ! :D
Keep it simple? Here’s a simple question.
If 2 guns are leaning up against the wall, both say 6920’s.
One has no add ons at all, dead stock. The KISS gun.
The other has a Comp M4, good sling, and maybe a light on it.
Which one do you think 99.9% of the people would grab when the shit hits the fan?
;)
Which is simpler to use, an Aimpoint or iron sights? The Aimpoint is simpler..
No question. When I let some unexperienced shooter try on of my ARs, I often wish I just had an aimpoint for simplicity... knowing that they're not too serious about it... just get some rounds on target.
It's easy to hand someone my 10/22 with an RDS and let them go to it.
All guns have "their place."
I am only referring to carbines intended for serious purposes.
How is a "hand out" gun not a serious purpose?
What do you think would be more effective in a pinch, handing out 10 stock carbines at $1000 each and have 10 people armed or handing out 5 tricked out carbines at $2000 each and have 5 people armed.
LE agencies have to deal with this delema every day.
KintlaLake
11-14-07, 10:10
Using iron sights in an optic world is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
I just traded my knife for a gun yesterday, gotm4, ok? ;) I've seen the light -- or the LED, as it were. :D
I know a few people who don't have computers, cell phones or email...simple yes, helpless no. They simply refuse to adapt to the times.
That's usually a sign of technophobia, often masquerading as rebellion or distrust. The whole "KISS carbine" thang sounds like some of both.
(I mean, I'll bet there's someone out there who refuses still to buy a vehicle that's equipped with electric windows. :rolleyes: )
To each his own. The KISS attitude manifests itself in different ways.
I do get a kick out of the I-have-an-Amish-carbine-just-for-SHTF philosophy. To me, that's kinda like living in one house while the electricity is working, then evacuating to a different house when there's a power outage. :rolleyes:
In another thread, I humbly offered my approach that "My SHTF gun is the gun I have when the SHTF." There's little dispute in these forums that using an optic gives the shooter advantages over iron sights; likewise a weaponlight. Acknowledging my relatively limited experience, I want those advantages when the SHTF. But if my optic or light goes down in the middle of a SHTF scenario, that gun is still my SHTF gun, and I'd better be prepared to use the irons in the dark.
That's a matter of honing skills, not insisting on (or having an aversion to) specific accessories.
A "KISS carbine" is like a "religious bookstore" -- attitude, not equipment. Or, if you prefer, "Singer, not song." ;)
Helpless? Not at all. As long as you understand that a red dot optic (like an Aimpoint) is better than sights, sights are surely simple but you'll be hard pressed to 'take out/break' an Aimpoint M4. The purpose of the Aimpoint is purely speed not shooting 1" groups or qualifying at 500yds. More on speed.....I think it was Clint Smith who said something to this effect. "The amount of time you have in a gunfight is the rest of your life!". You may not get anything from that quote. What I get is 'you need to be fast and you need to be accurate'. With sights I am actually more accurate than Aimpoints. With Aimpoints I can get 'acceptable accuracy' meaning COM hits but I can do it twice (sometimes even faster) as fast.
Here's what I do to enhance the speed of COM contact distance shots. Now I'm willing to be sold on why it's not a good idea, mind you..
At contact (5-15 feet distances), I use the front sight the same way one would use the dot in an aimpoint. Dig?
I raise the weapon to on target and get a flash picture of the front sight while looking just OVER the rear app and let the shot(s) rip. I can peripherally see the sight post coming onto target and time the trigger pull so there's no delay between getting on target and firing the shot.
The assumption in general that people who run irons are getting a conventional sight pic at contact distance is not necessarily accurate.
olds442tyguy
11-14-07, 12:56
Just my opinion, but I think KISS is just another TOS fad. (Retro, Dissy, IDF, etcetera).
If the scenario is simple, the rifle can be simple. But using a KISS rifle as a home defense rifle doesn't make much sense to me. I don't care how good you are, purposefully putting yourself at a disadvantage so you look cool on TOS just doesn't add up.
Let's have a pitch dark night time shoot. You bring your A1 iron sighted plain jane carbine, and I'll bring something with a light and a red dot. Let's see who does better. ;)
I remember when I fell into the ArfCom fads and went along with the TOS worshippings of the brand of the month. I can't speak highly enough of forming your own logical opinion rather than thinking anyone else knows what's best for you in a rifle.
I can't speak highly enough of forming your own logical opinion rather than thinking anyone else knows what's best for you in a rifle.
Well put.
olds442tyguy
11-14-07, 13:08
Well put.
MarkM complimented me?
The Four Horsemen cometh! :D
Since every little option, other than the free float rail (unless you include the DD Omega), has some sort of QD mount, isn't everything essentially a "convertible" KISS carbine? I think that some folks spend too much time thinking about ridiculous BS, typing away--marvelling at their own thoughts in print, and not enough time shooting. But what do I know...:rolleyes:
toddackerman
11-14-07, 15:14
Since every little option, other than the free float rail (unless you include the DD Omega), has some sort of QD mount, isn't everything essentially a "convertible" KISS carbine? I think that some folks spend too much time thinking about ridiculous BS, typing away--marvelling at their own thoughts in print, and not enough time shooting. But what do I know...:rolleyes:
Sorry to be late to this thread Dubb....I just got back from shooting. ;)
Bingo!
I would venture to say that 99% of those who have really spent thoughtful time in setting up their rifle, and training with it, and re-doing the setup to improve or fix the original setup, and training some more have a pretty "Convertible Kit".
I can take off my CompM3, and my Scout Light, flip up my front and rear BUIS, and fit what the TOS definition of KISS is. The only problem is that both are Mission/ Situationally Critical in my mind. Even if you're in broad daylight all day on patrol doesn't mean you won't have to go into a dark house to clear it. Both the RDS and White Light have a dramatic effect facilitating this task more efficiently.
For those who have their AR for primarily a HD weapon where the concern is "Bumps in the Night", the light is a must, and the RDS is far more accurate in the dark with a white light than Ghost Ring BUIS's, although with the short distances in a typical home, you'd probably still make your hits with the BUIS's...but not as quickly.
About the only time that I would be comfortable with a stripped down carbine is on a long nature hike out in the "Boonies", where the threats are more 4 legged than 2 legged........ As long as I'm home before dark! :)
How is a "hand out" gun not a serious purpose?
What do you think would be more effective in a pinch, handing out 10 stock carbines at $1000 each and have 10 people armed or handing out 5 tricked out carbines at $2000 each and have 5 people armed.
LE agencies have to deal with this delema every day.
and lawsuits...
A CCO (red dot - Close Combat Optic for the acronym imparied), a Light and a good sling are really pretty cheap...
I run a G2 in a DD mount - on several of my guns - inc my work guns -- it gets a guy into a robust ligth for around $60.
Add in a Larue mounted Aimpoint - and a decent sling (I prefer the VCAS) - and its a day or two's pay.
I have a few retro guns - but I won them for the fun of building -- not thinking to use it socially. Given that any of the serious trainers recommend the above three one may construe that as a clue.
I've run irons overseas in the dark -- its not something I like but at the time I did nto know better. I also later used to crack a cyalum stick and rub a bit on the front sight post as something to pick out.
Not having the BASIC tools on your weapon is downright foolish.
I can run an iron sighted gun about as fast as I can a CCO'd gun in close under ideal conditions -- start moving, getting shot at, diminished visibility, the tgt moving, and incliminate weather - and you see that the CCO, a light, and a sling are MANDATORY.
I view this the same as Night fighting gear (suppressors, IR laser/aimers, and NODS) -- using them in combat is a force multiplier.
Its like fighting a blind man -- and the only fair fight is the fight you win.
Whats your life worth?
Since every little option, other than the free float rail (unless you include the DD Omega), has some sort of QD mount, isn't everything essentially a "convertible" KISS carbine? I think that some folks spend too much time thinking about ridiculous BS, typing away--marvelling at their own thoughts in print, and not enough time shooting. But what do I know...:rolleyes: Help us :D out with cheap ammo or loading components and I'll be happy to shoot more.
Back in the mid to late 80's, I spent alot of time in a densely forrested Mountainous region. Re-supply was non-existant, the weather sucked, batteries corroded and optics failed. A bright light on your weapon would have been suicide.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/jaodom722/10-30-05001-7.jpg
Granted, technology has come a long way since then, but there's still alot to be said about being proficient with iron sights and the use of tactics.
and lawsuits...
A CCO (red dot - Close Combat Optic for the acronym imparied), a Light and a good sling are really pretty cheap...
I run a G2 in a DD mount - on several of my guns - inc my work guns -- it gets a guy into a robust ligth for around $60.
Add in a Larue mounted Aimpoint - and a decent sling (I prefer the VCAS) - and its a day or two's pay.
I have a few retro guns - but I won them for the fun of building -- not thinking to use it socially. Given that any of the serious trainers recommend the above three one may construe that as a clue.
I've run irons overseas in the dark -- its not something I like but at the time I did nto know better. I also later used to crack a cyalum stick and rub a bit on the front sight post as something to pick out.
Not having the BASIC tools on your weapon is downright foolish.
I can run an iron sighted gun about as fast as I can a CCO'd gun in close under ideal conditions -- start moving, getting shot at, diminished visibility, the tgt moving, and incliminate weather - and you see that the CCO, a light, and a sling are MANDATORY.
I view this the same as Night fighting gear (suppressors, IR laser/aimers, and NODS) -- using them in combat is a force multiplier.
Its like fighting a blind man -- and the only fair fight is the fight you win.
Whats your life worth?
You need to realize I'm not defending KISS and I would never use a KISS for SHTF. I'm not a retro douche like you think I am. I'm not into the retro fad on TOS. I enjoy collecting all models and I realize retro guns are obsolete.
I'm just pointing out the fact that many departments don't have the money for accessories.
And that arming the LE department where everyone has a good rifle, as opposed to half having a great rifle while half is unarmed is a delema and realistic situation.
I'm just pointing out the use of a KISS carbine happens in real life, whether we agree that using it is a good thing or not.
Not everyone is going to be clearing houses in the dead of night. If it is just a range rifle then why add 30 pounds to a superbly lightweight platform. The flashlight is the only addition I'd put on a Patrol rifle, dont need a rail system for that. The Aimpoint is superior to iron sights untill a battery fails or it takes a heavy impact and breaks. I know unlikely but even Scandinavian tech fails every now and then. We tend to rely too hevily on Technology and when it fails we dont have the basic skills to continue the fight.
Here is another way to look at it. Everyone could very well be clearing their own house or their neighbors. It is ALWAYS better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it.
All weapons should be viewed as the weapon that will be available to them when things go bad. Do you want it setup to fight or to be a hinderance?
Optics make a world of differance and should be viewed as a must have. The Aimpoint has so much battery life that if your a middle aged man, you will most likely NEVER need a new battery. If you do, then that is why you have your back up iron sights. Aimpoints have been known to fall off the back of cars going down the highway, be run over by a tractor trailer and still work. I wouldn't worry about it breaking.
C4
Let's cover a simple fact before we go any deeper into the discussion. Everyone SHOULD be 100% comfortable (and good) with their irons. Once that skill is acquired, it is time to pick up a good dot optic.
For those of you out there that believe that you can shoot well at night with bone stock irons, how many night fighting courses have you been through? I have been through several night shooting schools and have seen guys running irons. They had a horrible time with it and couldn't hit anything.
I understand about wanting to build vietnam era bone stock replicas for the fun of it, but some people actually think this is a good (or best) fighting tool available. This just isn't the case.
C4
ScottRyan -- I was using your post to make a point -- I dont think your anything but a Colt snob ;) Seriously I was offering the counterpoint to the point.
Johno -- MWS - modular weapon system... I dont want to get offtopic - but since 911 we've learned a shit load about soldier load/ supply and fighting. its studied to a degree it was never really done before.
Roger that, here's my current ride, except the ACOG has been replaced with an Aimpoint ML2.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/jaodom722/10-30-05116.jpg
As long as you understand that a red dot optic (like an Aimpoint) is better than sights.
Thanks for the lecture, but my team was using 6520s and AimPoint 5000s back before such became in vogue, and the MP-5 was considered "Tier 1", in your speak.
I am well aware that a red dot sight is faster and more efficient than irons. If you weren't so busy making your cute little remarks about the dark ages and bringing a knife to a gunfight, you would have read that I'm well past my prime, past offensive operations, past all the HSLD stuff a lot of folks here like to talk about; and if the truth be known, few have done.
IOW, I'm in a defensive posture these days. I don't have the luxury of knowing exactly where and when I'll go into battle. And, I have felt that sick feeling you get when your red dot sight goes tango uniform seconds before the op goes dynamic. Yes, batteries are leagues better these days. But don't tell me it cannot happen; I know better.
The difference between you and me is that I recognize the merits of both "systems". I don't employ an optic because I am scared of, or don't understand, them. I don't employ one simply because I choose not to at this stage of the game.
Sorry if you find that difficult to fathom.
.
Robb Jensen
11-14-07, 21:34
Thanks for the lecture, but my team was using 6520s and AimPoint 5000s back before such became in vogue, and the MP-5 was considered "Tier 1", in your speak.
I am well aware that a red dot sight is faster and more efficient than irons. If you weren't so busy making your cute little remarks about the dark ages and bringing a knife to a gunfight, you would have read that I'm well past my prime, past offensive operations, past all the HSLD stuff a lot of folks here like to talk about; and if the truth be known, few have done.
IOW, I'm in a defensive posture these days. I don't have the luxury of knowing exactly where and when I'll go into battle. And, I have felt that sick feeling you get when your red dot sight goes tango uniform seconds before the op goes dynamic. Yes, batteries are leagues better these days. But don't tell me it cannot happen; I know better.
The difference between you and me is that I recognize the merits of both "systems". I don't employ an optic because I am scared of, or don't understand, them. I don't employ one simply because I choose not to at this stage of the game.
Sorry if you find that difficult to fathom.
.
Not hard to fathom it's just you've come into the discussion all emotional (at least it came across that way) and you asked if you were helpless. I answered and now you feel all butt hurt and that's fine. Also I've never said that optics and batteries cannot fail, if I did please show me where. If you look around at pics of my training and non-competition guns you'll see that all have FIXED iron sights, they're there for a reason.
"Ordinary people lose sight of the nature of reality and do not know the
basis of mind. Arbitrarily fixating on all sorts of objects, they do not
cultivate accurate awareness; therefore love and hatred arise. Because of
love and hatred, the vessel of the mind cracks and leaks. Because the vessel
of the mind cracks and leaks, there is birth and death. Because there is
birth and death, all miseries naturally appear."--Hongren
BushmasterFanBoy
11-14-07, 23:34
I can't believe we are even debating this :rolleyes: .
Anyone who argues with me about how irons are better than CCOs can take me up for a challenge. I got a pretty good idea who will win.
As for weight, sacrifice something else so that you can carry the accessories on your weapon. Get a lighter barrel, take one less magazine, skimp on something that you are willing to skimp on. Trust me, you're going to need the option to clear a dark room, quickly engage other moving targets with adrenaline rocketing your heart, and making your arms and legs shaky. Try carefully lining up your iron sights on a moving target while your so shaky you can't hold still. It isn't going to happen. Some things are debatable, but a good optic (+BUIS), solid light, and decent sling are not. If you don't agree, then I implore you to carefully explain yourself so that I can better understand why you are saying KISS is better.
Jay Cunningham
11-14-07, 23:37
Not having the BASIC tools on your weapon is downright foolish.
I can run an iron sighted gun about as fast as I can a CCO'd gun in close under ideal conditions -- start moving, getting shot at, diminished visibility, the tgt moving, and incliminate weather - and you see that the CCO, a light, and a sling are MANDATORY.
Sorry I didn't quote this earlier - this statement says it all to me.
For many years people rode horses which are still decent transportation...................wisely many have moved on and use horseless carriages now.
KISS is a relative term, one persons KISS is one thing...............and isn't necessarily another persons version of KISS. KISS is what works for you...............you can't speak for me.
One thing is for sure.............if you aren't running a red dot optic, then you're living in the dark ages.
As proven by the SF folks in Afghanistan, you can't put the horses in the barn yet.;)
Remember I said I am playing devil's advocate.:p
I answered and now you feel all butt hurt...
Hardly; just annoyed at your condescending smug attitude. Nothing wrong with such, of course... IF you're right. But you're not.
I suppose I should not be surprised; those ...
.
Edited by GOTM4; you can sit this one out for a little while and think about being a jackass some more. Take the BS somewhere else.
Most of us are'nt saying KISS is better, but it is what you end up with when your red dot fails, and they do fail sometimes.
Robb Jensen
11-15-07, 06:39
Most of us are'nt saying KISS is better, but it is what you end up with when your red dot fails, and they do fail sometimes.
I totally agree..........irons are good.
But irons and a red dot optic (co-witnessed) IS better.
This is the exact same logic why you have a primary and a secondary weapon. It's not if a primary will fail, it will fail or it'll run out of ammo at which point you may have to go to the secondary. No one including me are saying don't run irons and ONLY run an optic without iron sights. Some are reading WAY too far into this.
My 10" LMT w/irons and a co-witnessed T1 Aimpoint.(if Aimpoint fails I can 'shoot-thru' the Aimpoint because I can still see the sights)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/SBRs001.jpg
My Arsenal SLR106 w/H1 Aimpoint also co-witnessed (if Aimpoint fails I can 'shoot-thru' the Aimpoint because I can still see the sights)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/AKs005.jpg
My Colt 6721/6920 hybrid (w/Aimpoint M2 & LaRue LT150) mount and irons (it's currently getting a PWS piston conversion (www.primaryweapons.com) and it's Aimpoint has been replaced with a M4 model and a LaRue mount.(if Aimpoint fails I can 'shoot-thru' the Aimpoint because I can still see the sights)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/colt028.jpg
Requirements drive the choice. Lumpy brought up a great instance of when a mechanically KISS gun is a good thing.
Is a red dot better? Yep.
Is it better to have a light mounted on a long gun? Yep.
Is a sling necessary? I've heard good arguments both ways. I think it is one of those things that is driven by the requirements of the intended use for the gun. Massad Ayoob brought up a good argument in an article a couple of years back that advocated not using them on a purely home defense gun. (Granted the article is probably 7 or 8 years old now and may be out of date given the current sling technology, which has progressed significantly in the last couple of year. However, the point remains. Doctrine and the equipment that supports it is fluid depending on the technology available and the current thinking.)
But to dismiss a concept out of hand, as the title of this thread seemingly does, without knowing exactly why a gun has been configured that way by its owner, is not wise either.
Who knows why people build a KISS (mechanical) rifle? Is it their primary gun? Or is it a trunk gun? Is it a range shooter? Is it meant as something to teach the fundamentals of marksmanship on? The intended use defines the configuration. Not the other way around.
That said, if someone wants to use a KISS(mechanical) for their primary, I will lose no sleep over it. It doesn't affect my family's safety. If I were in a team environment then perhaps I'd be concerned about what a teammate uses.
Why people get wrapped around the axle over what other people are doing is beyond me.
Jay Cunningham
11-15-07, 07:17
I'm glad to see a majority of the posters understand where I'm coming from. For the guys that disagree for certain reasons... think about what you are saying.
If you are arguing that someone might want a "KISS carbine" for this or that or the other... you missed the point. Like I said before, I'm talking about carbines intended for serious purposes. Any gun that you might want for plinking or fun or whatever is fine by me and probably everybody else.
If you are arguing "well, those stripped down guns have been getting the job done now for xxx years and..." Yeah, back in the day they got the job done. We are no longer back in the day. I'd like to take a time machine back to WW2 and interview an infantry squad that had been involved in house-to house fighting in Bastonge or some other similar built-up area.
I'd like to present them with an M-1 carbine bone stock from the armory, and then present them with an M-1 carbine modified with an UltiMAK rail, an Aimpoint Micro T-1 optic, a SF Scout light and a BFG/Vickers Combat Applications sling.
I suspect everyone in that squad would have a big grin on their ugly mugs after trying the "enhanced" M-1.
If you are arguing that someone might want a "KISS carbine" for this or that or the other... you missed the point. Like I said before, I'm talking about carbines intended for serious purposes. Any gun that you might want for plinking or fun or whatever is fine by me and probably everybody else.
What about the trunk gun argument. It's meant for serious purposes?
It's still amusing to me that a thread like this went on so long, resulted in moderators insulting other posters (and then editing their replies), and all over telling other people what to do. :confused:
Remember too that there's the other extreme as well; those people that think they can buy their way to better shooting ability. Either extreme is actually wrong, but at the end of the day it's up to the individual shooter to decide what works for them, and everyone else to just accept it and leave them alone.
It's still amusing to me that a thread like this went on so long, resulted in moderators insulting other posters (and then editing their replies), and all over telling other people what to do. :confused:
Remember too that there's the other extreme as well; those people that think they can buy their way to better shooting ability. Either extreme is actually wrong, but at the end of the day it's up to the individual shooter to decide what works for them, and everyone else to just accept it and leave them alone.
Well said Rob. I noticed the same things.
Jay Cunningham
11-15-07, 07:49
If any of you think that I am saying that a "jocked up" rifle will compensate for something then you have missed my point or I haven't communicated it clearly.
Sometimes it's easier to quote yourself...
What about the trunk gun argument. It's meant for serious purposes?
On the theory it is easier to quote yourself, I'm still waiting for a response.
Jay Cunningham
11-15-07, 08:30
On the theory it is easier to quote yourself, I'm still waiting for a response.
Tell me about the "trunk gun" then... I'm all ears.
Tell me about the "trunk gun" then... I'm all ears.
I direct your attention to post #26 of your own thread. A KISS gun used for "serious" purposes.
The person in question identified his requirements and selected a gun to match.
Jay Cunningham
11-15-07, 08:41
I have a 16" A1 sighted "KISS" carbine that resides in my truck. I do not consider it an optimal fighting configuration, and its not even my choice for my go-to M4.
I want to have an AR with me where ever I go, and the one thats in my truck is not going to be one of my expensive HS/LD tools for a very simple reason. Vehicle theft as well as vehicle burglary are very popular in Arizona. If despite all my precautions Im out a rifle Id rather be out the relatively inexpensive carbine I have in my truck. Unlike people that pick AKs, SKSs or lever guns for their truck gun, I still have the excellent ergonomics of the AR platform as well as the muscle memory.
Once again, I dont think the "KISS" concept is optimal for any application, but it is function and is another tool the box for me. Ive tested it both in daylight and dark, at close range and out to 250yds and feel confident I can make effective use of it.
That said, many of the proponents of this format of gun either like them for nostalgia purposes or because they either fear or dont understand technological advances or the ability to use them efficiently. Unfortunately they tend to lay that personal deficiency on the rest of us that can walk and chew gum at the same time.
I find it odd for any of us to be totally biased against the concept when so many of us have told beginners that have ernestly asked "what should I get?" to start out simple, learn your gun, learn your irons and go from there.
Lumpy's explanation sounds like it stands on it's own merit...
Don't see the need to get butthurt here.
NCPatrolAR
11-15-07, 08:49
If I'm going to use a long gun for serious purposes, I want it as maxed out as I can get it. While a long gun with just iron sights, no sling, no light, etc might be able to get the job done; why would I willingly go into a fight without trying to stack the deck in my favor?
If one thinks they can get the job done with a plain jane gun, more power to them.
Jay Cunningham
11-15-07, 08:55
If I'm going to use a long gun for serious purposes, I want it as maxed out as I can get it. While a long gun with just iron sights, no sling, no light, etc might be able to get the job done; why would I willingly go into a fight without trying to stack the deck in my favor?
If one thinks they can get the job done with a plain jane gun, more power to them.
Exactly. Fights shouldn't be fair. I am not interested in playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules...
Don't see the need to get butthurt here.
More suitably mature discussion points. :rolleyes:
That was also my reasoning for my Jeep gun,
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/jaodom722/10-30-05001-18.jpg
This one goes with me everywhere, along with my 1911. For the occasional confrontation with the average thug on the street, I'm quite confident with my weapons and my ability.
If I were deliberately putting Myself in a tactical situation, I'd carry my other M4,..................................and a few smoke grenades.
Lumpy's explanation sounds like it stands on it's own merit...
Don't see the need to get butthurt here.
What's up with the use of the term butthurt? Is this some in vogue thing?
My point is and has been let the person decide what they want based on their needs.
It seemed like your thread was asking why someone would go for a KISS gun. That's an admirable thing, if you're asking to truly learn. If you're just asking to solicit responses that agree with your point of view then that is another matter.
The explanation is simple. Simple guns can have serious uses, even if they aren't optimal, depending on the intended purpose. Just because it doesn't fit your needs doesn't meant they don't have their uses.
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