View Full Version : What downsides are there to reducing barrel length?
I've been researching this issue a bit on my .308 rifle, which currently has a 24" barrel and is a half MOA rifle. From what I've seen, there's really no loss in accuracy to cut your barrel down to 20", even 18" or less. In fact, sometimes reducing barrel length IMPROVES accuracy. Apparently what you lose is mainly velocity, plus you get greater muzzle blast.
Any other downsides to shortening a barrel to 20" or less? If it doesn't affect accuracy or lethality within say 800 yards, the weight savings and improved handling would make it worthwhile to me.
Couple of articles on this subject:
http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/
http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length
elephantrider
09-23-11, 16:59
You pretty much summed it up.
Pros:
- increased barrel rigidity
- potential increase in accuracy because of the rigidity increase
- less weight/easier handling
Cons:
- marginal velocity loss
- increased muzzle blast
I hear you. But I am still wondering more about the muzzle blast factor. When people talk about "increased muzzle blast" when you cut a barrel say from 24" to 20", how much difference are we talking about? Has some test been done that has measured this?
I only ask because, until yesterday (when I sold my SPS Tactical), I had two .308 rifles, one a 20", the other a 24", and I could not really tell a huge difference with ear pro on (and I sure ain't gonna test with it OFF). If there is a difference, it must not be huge. To me, any large centerfire caliber rifle is just plain LOUD, and any discussion about "degrees of loudness" and the like seems mainly theoretical.
Gutshot John
09-23-11, 18:49
Much of the "muzzle blast" complaint has more to do with the "blast" being closer to your face than any real significance to increased unburnt powder.
It's really a relative concern, i.e. the difference between an 18" and 16" barrel is pretty marginal, the difference between a 24" and 22" barrel is marginal but you'll notice a huge difference between a 24" and 16".
Muzzle velocity loss is going to vary from 15 to 25 fps between 24" and 16" but this is only a functional accuracy concern when shooting beyond 600 yards. Inside of that distance, it's pretty much irrelevant, beyond that distance the increased muzzle velocity is going to pay dividends when the bullet loses velocity at a slower rate.
Why not test without ear pro. Millions of large game animals are shot annually by hunters with no ear pro with no hearing damage.
Gutshot John
09-23-11, 19:20
Why not test without ear pro. Millions of large game animals are shot annually by hunters with no ear pro with no hearing damage.
Really? Based on what? :rolleyes:
Sure and lots of shooters have gone to hearing doctors to have hearing tests done and have had their doctors look at their results and say "oh I guess you're a shooter aren't you?"
Ask me how I know.
You might as well test the effectiveness of glasses by pouring sand into your eye.
I'm with John here.
After a lifetime of shooting, I have constant ringing in my ears. I didn't start long strings of fire and long(all day) sessions until about 5 years ago, and my ears were damaged long before that and I'm certain it was due to hunting without ear protection.
I love that I can hunt suppressed in South Dakota. My unsuppressed rifles rarely see action these days. Thus, I won't really be able to help you much with the specifics on how much louder shorter barrels are... but I can tell you that you can tell... even when suppressed.
Barrel length should be determined by the mission at hand.
If you intend to shoot as far as possible, you'll need as much barrel as possible.
If you intend to shoot as far as possible, but must have a light and portable package, then your barrel may need to be shorter.
If you intend to run suppressors, you'll clearly find how a 26" barrel with an 8" suppressor hanging off the end is very cumbersome.
Questions and threads like these are what lead to the development of the Desert Tactical Arms SRS, and what continues to lead to advancements in bullpup style rifles.
Ok dont take two shots outdoors without ear pro if you are so inclined.
Alaskapopo
09-24-11, 20:28
Why not test without ear pro. Millions of large game animals are shot annually by hunters with no ear pro with no hearing damage.
As one who has had to shoot plenty of bears without ear protection I can tell you it sucks and each time my ears were ringing for the rest of the shift. I also don't hear as well as I used to. Its not a good idea.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-24-11, 20:29
Really? Based on what? :rolleyes:
Sure and lots of shooters have gone to hearing doctors to have hearing tests done and have had their doctors look at their results and say "oh I guess you're a shooter aren't you?"
Ask me how I know.
You might as well test the effectiveness of glasses by pouring sand into your eye.
Now that was funny. You bastard I almost spit my drink up on the computer screen.
I shoot multiple large game animals yearly with a 12 gauge shotgun and a 308 bolt gun and never have any ear ringing. Hearing tests are all well.
Gut Shot you can disagree without being sarcastic.
billybronco
09-24-11, 21:22
Sarcasm is necessary for nonsensical postings.
If you can rock even one round through a 12 gauge or ESPECIALLY a .308 w/o your ears ringing then it's too late for you. You're already deaf.
"Hearing tests..??" Really?
Come on.........
I'm sure you're doctor is telling you it's perfectly fine to shoot w/o earpro.
Alaskapopo
09-24-11, 22:09
I shoot multiple large game animals yearly with a 12 gauge shotgun and a 308 bolt gun and never have any ear ringing. Hearing tests are all well.
Gut Shot you can disagree without being sarcastic.
I am sorry but if your ears are not ringing then you have already done too much damage. What you are saying is impossible. I know from experience having had to shoot multiple bears with 12 gauge slugs. Unless your not human you will have hearing loss and your ears will be ringing. Your statement is in line with telling people to shoot themselves to test the effectiveness of their rifles.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-24-11, 22:26
Now that was funny. You bastard I almost spit my drink up on the computer screen.
I'm glad I could oblige. :)
I shoot multiple large game animals yearly with a 12 gauge shotgun and a 308 bolt gun and never have any ear ringing. Hearing tests are all well.
Gut Shot you can disagree without being sarcastic.
I was going for ironic but full on sarcasm is something I try to avoid.
Seriously lighten up a bit and recognize that your statement was perhaps a bit flawed. There are ways of testing decibel levels without subjecting yourself to potential harm without real reason.
I will say that having lost hearing over years of shooting (not to mention being in an artillery battalion) and having a doctor tell me at 36 that I needed hearing aids was no joke (without sarcasm). I don't wear them but I'm a bit obsessive about protecting what remains of my hearing and when I hear someone make a misinformed statement that can do the uninformed actual harm I get a bit annoyed.
.
I'm speaking of deer rifles...
I've been shooting a very accurate factory 18" Remington in 308 for 20+ years and I cut a Remington in 7mm-08 down to 16" 4-5 years ago that turned out to be as accurate as well.
Shooting them, I've never noticed any extra loudness but I have had more than one person at the range ask me, "what kind of magnum was I shooting?".
So, I guess the short barrels are loud to bystanders??
I read years ago, that you lose/gain (depending on the cartridge) an average of 25-35 fps per inch varying from a 22" rifle barrel. Never proved it but figured it had some merit.
I have found short barrels to be as accurate as longer barrels and won't hesitate a second to cut one down.
To me, I carry a rifle a whole lot more than I shoot it, so maneuverability far out weighs loudness.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Gut Shot you can disagree without being sarcastic.
Yes, and you can be WRONG without getting upset about it. ;)
You summed up the Pro/Cons pretty succinctly, the only other one to add is that on shorter barrels, which are common with suppressors, the lifetime of the cans isn't quite as long. In practical terms, any good 30cal suppressor is so overbuilt I wouldn't be concerned, but it's another item.
I hear you. But I am still wondering more about the muzzle blast factor.
We shoot the .308 in 20", 20" with brake, and 16" with Battlecomp. Neither of the 20 inchers are noteworthy in muzzle blast.
The Battle comp will rattle you if you're off to the side when it's being fired.
And shooting without ear pro unless abolutely necessary is absurd.
I swear, the internet and peoples comments, never ceases to amaze me.
mkmckinley
10-18-11, 20:12
I shoot multiple large game animals yearly with a 12 gauge shotgun and a 308 bolt gun and never have any ear ringing. Hearing tests are all well.
Gut Shot you can disagree without being sarcastic.
This is the equivalent of saying "I run a red light every day to save time and I haven't been T-boned". Just because you haven't noticed any consequences yet doesn't mean you won't.
devildog178
12-17-11, 22:24
One disadvantage I have noticed with shorter barrels is due to lighter weight they jump more during recoil. This causes slower followup shots. YMMV though
One disadvantage I have noticed with shorter barrels is due to lighter weight they jump more during recoil. This causes slower followup shots. YMMV though
If your rifle is jumping during recoil... you are doing it wrong. Period.
Alaskapopo
12-18-11, 02:14
If your rifle is jumping during recoil... you are doing it wrong. Period.
BS!
Recoil no matter how good your forum is will be present and will cause the rifle to jump. The better the forum the less the jump but its never gone entirely. Also in real life you often have to fire from less than ideal positions which makes recoil or muzzle jump far more noticiable. There is a reason that muzzle brakes dominate three gun because they allow you to shoot faster because there is less to almost no muzzle jump. Absolute statements are usually wrong.
Pat
If you can't spot your own hits at any distance with an 18" 308... you are doing it wrong. That is not an absolute statement... it's a statement of fact that if your form is that bad you need to go back to the drawing board.
They always say the same thing: Short barrel, reduced weight, increased muzzle hop.
The truth is actually quite different. Longer barrel = full powder column burn = increased recoil.
So if anything, the shorter barrel would offer less hop or at the very least the same. Instead the increased noise and flash leads to shooters yanking on the trigger like a teenager before prom night. I've seen it too many times to count. If your form is correct, you'll not be knocked out of the scope when shooting a 308 of ANY length... least of which one with a shorter barrel.
Sure, I get hop sometimes... when I can't build a correct position due to limitations put on me by a match coordinator. If you are proned out and your rifle is hopping... you have issues to sort out, and its not a rifle issue. It's that simple.
Put any 308 in my hands and I will be able to spot my hits at any range. This is an absolute statement because I've done it countless times. Put a 338LM and bigger in my hands... and things get more difficult.
Rifle hop is a condition of the shooter... not the rifle. That's a statement of fact.
If you can't spot your own hits at any distance with an 18" 308... you are doing it wrong. That is not an absolute statement... it's a statement of fact that if your form is that bad you need to go back to the drawing board.
They always say the same thing: Short barrel, reduced weight, increased muzzle hop.
The truth is actually quite different. Longer barrel = full powder column burn = increased recoil.
So if anything, the shorter barrel would offer less hop or at the very least the same. Instead the increased noise and flash leads to shooters yanking on the trigger like a teenager before prom night. I've seen it too many times to count. If your form is correct, you'll not be knocked out of the scope when shooting a 308 of ANY length... least of which one with a shorter barrel.
Sure, I get hop sometimes... when I can't build a correct position due to limitations put on me by a match coordinator. If you are proned out and your rifle is hopping... you have issues to sort out, and its not a rifle issue. It's that simple.
Put any 308 in my hands and I will be able to spot my hits at any range. This is an absolute statement because I've done it countless times. Put a 338LM and bigger in my hands... and things get more difficult.
Rifle hop is a condition of the shooter... not the rifle. That's a statement of fact.
Does that really need to be said on here...apparently so.
Whether your in the precision bolt or s/a forum....that statement in bold holds true for both types of rifles. That's why I love the art of precision shooting. Technique, technique, and then a little more technique please sir!
I really enjoy your posts in regards to your strict adherence to the fundamentals and the art form behind driving precision rifles(you are kinda abrasive and blunt sometimes though;)). Over the last few years its easily one of my favorite things to do and study. I spent a year or two so damn frustrated...thought I could muscle the gun, thought I could buy my way into better precision/accuracy, but ultimately it took me grasping the fundamentals, applying the techniques of precision shootings, and getting quite frankly religious about it.
One of my first big victories in terms of LR precision shooting was finally having the proper technique like loading the bipod, and staying down in the scope in order to see my own splash....one step further was being able to quite often even pick up my own swirl/trace.
If you apply the fundamentals, there is no reason why you cannot control a .223/.308/6.5/.260 type rifle and keep the rifle from "jumping" on you.
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