View Full Version : M16 Still in Service
Today my department participated in a large training scenario hosted by DHS in several locations around the Denver metro area. There were several SWAT teams from across the front range. Most teams carried the AR platform of some type or another. I saw a few Commandos and mostly M4's.
While on break, a Denver S.O. team member walked by and I asked to see his rifle. He and his team were all carrying M16's. A1 flash hiders, tri-angle handguards and no forward assists. They looked great - almost new in fact. The bolts looked like they were chrome plated. The deputy told me the S.O. got them on loan from the government recently. Despite the 20" barrel, he said they've been really happy with them, and said they all shot great. In a sea of MP5's, M4's and whatnot today, it was pretty cool seeing these old guns being carried and still protecting the community.
Belmont31R
09-23-11, 19:09
Yes they have a program for LE dept's to get older M16's. I think it is through DRMO. Actually putting them to use sounds a lot better than meeting a chopping block.
deadlyfire
09-23-11, 19:11
Agreed there's plenty of better uses for historical/neat weapons than destroying them.
Must have been a fun contrast from the picatinny rails on most ARs to their smooth sided handguards.
Are any of these training sessions open to the public as casual observers?
I remember a few yrs ago seeing a documentary on the north Hollywood shoot out, the bank robbery gone awry and towards the end they made mention of the PD acquiring and requiring M16's for patrol cars, they cut to a scene of officers taking out of and putting in trunks old M16 A1's
Belmont31R
11-07-11, 09:39
LAPD had some long guns. Watch some videos of the SLA shootout in the 1970's and they did have quite a few long guns at their disposal.
Heres one: http://youtu.be/Ofbvgjl6MhA
I just think that robbery cemented in the idea that patrol officers need more than pistols and occasional shotguns.
Agreed, I'm sure the departments had them at their disposal(no doubt swat teams had them at their disposal)but probably not a requirement on board patrol cars until this incident as you said proved the necessity. Like '20s and '30s era law enforcement having to better arm themselves to keep up with the likes of Bonnie & Clyde and Machine Gun Kelly!;)
CarlosDJackal
11-07-11, 12:05
You should see what my Army Reserve unit has in its armory. We received a bunch of Colt AR-15s about 6-months ago and they were in pretty bad shape. These guns are honest-to-goodness AR-15s that were converted to M-16A1s (full-auto) and then subsequently converted to M16A2s (burst).
All they did was stamp 'M16A1' onto the receivers. Then they ground out the '1s' from the 'M16A1' and the 'AUTO' and stamped in '2s' and 'BURST' over top. Overall, a sorry state of affairs for a unit that tends to deploy quite a bit.
The Missouri State Highway Patrol issues A1's from the federal gov that were leased for a dollar a piece. Though S.W.A.T. gets 10.5 Bushmasters.
We have a bunch of A1's with selector blocks.
QuietShootr
11-07-11, 14:45
You should see what my Army Reserve unit has in its armory. We received a bunch of Colt AR-15s about 6-months ago and they were in pretty bad shape. These guns are honest-to-goodness AR-15s that were converted to M-16A1s (full-auto) and then subsequently converted to M16A2s (burst).
All they did was stamp 'M16A1' onto the receivers. Then they ground out the '1s' from the 'M16A1' and the 'AUTO' and stamped in '2s' and 'BURST' over top. Overall, a sorry state of affairs for a unit that tends to deploy quite a bit.
They aren't converted semi-autos, they're just old receivers. The original M16 and many M16A1s were marked "AR-15".
M16s have been available to law enforcement agencies through the DOD 1208/1033/LESO program for many years. Variants include the earliest variants to the more modern. Some agencies have been shipped guns that should have been placed in museums rather than shipped.
Some put the guns to good use as shipped. They are GI quality, built in spec, reliable, and perform well. Others convert them into different forms or "improve" them, buggering them all up.
A nearby agency received a batch of unissued early guns rollmarked XM16E1. On the training range, their BCGs were sprayed with CLP, and they fired several hundred rounds each.
I carried a 20" A1 type as a patrol rifle for awhile. Not as handy as my current gun, but still serviceable. There are plenty still around.
decodeddiesel
11-07-11, 21:43
They aren't converted semi-autos, they're just old receivers. The original M16 and many M16A1s were marked "AR-15".
Yup. The first M16 I ever fired was an M16A1 with A2 hand guards that was stamped "Colt AR-15" when I was a Cadet at Norwich University. I used to have a Polaroid (remember those lol) of it somewhere.
Traveshamockery
11-07-11, 21:46
Too bad Clinton prevented those old M-16s from being made available through the CMP.
It was not Clinton that prevented the release of F/A guns through CMP. It was done long before he took office.
The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office received M-16s, mostly A1's, through this program. Almost every Deputy on patrol and many detectives carry them and yes they are still F/A. Several have had the uppers changed to flat top with shorter barrels (10.3 to 16 inches). This changes were made after the agency received them.
It was not Clinton that prevented the release of F/A guns through CMP. It was done long before he took office.
What can we do to fix the problem?
A good start would be to repeal the 68 Gun Control Act and the May 19, 1986 ban on transferable automatic weapons.
I don't think either is going to happen, at least anytime soon.
Do you see a pattern? Beware of years that have a 6 and 8 together in the last two digits, they are bad for gun owners and the 2nd amendment.
Yup. The first M16 I ever fired was an M16A1 with A2 hand guards that was stamped "Colt AR-15" when I was a Cadet at Norwich University. I used to have a Polaroid (remember those lol) of it somewhere.
Decodeddies I went to the Wick too. Did you ever get to see the Singer 1911! That gun made me salavate we even got to shoot it :D.
Guys check out this thread for some old warriors still in action.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58837
Here is the rollmark of the the gun we received last year. It now has a BCM 11.5" upper on it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1433
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1433
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1434
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1431
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1426
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1430
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1428
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1427
decodeddiesel
11-09-11, 10:38
Decodeddies I went to the Wick too. Did you ever get to see the Singer 1911! That gun made me salavate we even got to shoot it :D.
I did, though I never got to shoot it. I was happy though to get to shoot an M14 on FA on a couple of occasions and M16s and M16A1s quite a bit. The M60s they had were also in great shape, and are great shooters. There's actually a ton of very cool old weapons there. I think the one that took the cake was the 45-70 Colt Gatling Gun they had rebuilt, and was finished my 2nd (and final lol) year there.
NorthDakota
11-09-11, 13:37
LAPD had some long guns. Watch some videos of the SLA shootout in the 1970's and they did have quite a few long guns at their disposal.
Heres one: http://youtu.be/Ofbvgjl6MhA
What is that rifle at 1:10?
AR-18?
They aren't converted semi-autos, they're just old receivers. The original M16 and many M16A1s were marked "AR-15".
yep
It was the AR-15 BEFORE it was the M-16 IIRC. The DoD bought 1000 and sent them to Vietnam as part of a special project. Later they bought a metric buttload for the Army (XM16E1 with For Assist) and the Air Force (M16 -- just the AR-15 stamped M16).
yep
It was the AR-15 BEFORE it was the M-16 IIRC. The DoD bought 1000 and sent them to Vietnam as part of a special project. Later they bought a metric buttload for the Army (XM16E1 with For Assist) and the Air Force (M16 -- just the AR-15 stamped M16).
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Old%20School/model%20601%201%20Stick.jpg
A good start would be to repeal the 68 Gun Control Act and the May 19, 1986 ban on transferable automatic weapons.
I don't think either is going to happen, at least anytime soon.
Do you see a pattern? Beware of years that have a 6 and 8 together in the last two digits, they are bad for gun owners and the 2nd amendment.
so you're saying we're good to for another 57 years? :)
so you're saying we're good to for another 57 years? :)
Also have the 34 to worry about.
I'm all for training, but the very phrase "DHS" makes me uneasy.
Full disclosure--I'm a retired federal LEO. Power corrupts, IMHO.
TriumphRat675
11-11-11, 13:24
What is that rifle at 1:10?
AR-18?
LAPD did use AR-18's in that shootout.
Decodeddies I went to the Wick too. Did you ever get to see the Singer 1911! That gun made me salavate we even got to shoot it :D.
Guys check out this thread for some old warriors still in action.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58837
Here is the rollmark of the the gun we received last year. It now has a BCM 11.5" upper on it.
I was issued an M16 with the exact same roll mark last week during an Air Force exercise. Still being used and in pretty good shape too. A2 upper with an Auto lower receiver still present. I was about to tear it apart to look at the guts but Air Force people aren't supposed to get excited about guns...
Spooky
I was issued an M16 with the exact same roll mark last week during an Air Force exercise. Still being used and in pretty good shape too. A2 upper with an Auto lower receiver still present. I was about to tear it apart to look at the guts but Air Force people aren't supposed to get excited about guns... Spooky
The AF gets a lot out of its rifles. M16s become GAUs, become M4s, become...
The poor receivers, though. Last model # gets scratched out, new one gets stamped in. Some almost seem to run out of room, given enough travel or service life.
I was issued an M16 with the exact same roll mark last week during an Air Force exercise. Still being used and in pretty good shape too. A2 upper with an Auto lower receiver still present. I was about to tear it apart to look at the guts but Air Force people aren't supposed to get excited about guns...
SpookyWasn't it the Air Force that got us the M16 to begin with because Curtis LeMay liked the AR15 personally?
trackstar55
02-20-12, 13:16
Yes they have a program for LE dept's to get older M16's. I think it is through DRMO. Actually putting them to use sounds a lot better than meeting a chopping block.
We have 20 of them at our department. All but one are issued to deputies are are serving the public everyday. The only change we made was to make them semi-auto only.
They work great still!!!
I have 28 M16A1's in the safe at work, 2-3 without forward assists I think. I carried one for 6 years and it ran like a scalded cat.
We now issue Colt M4's. No problems with those either.
I have been to many different areas in the Philippines, the AFP (army) and the PHP (police) both still carry the early styles of M16a1 rifles & often the finish is completely worn off.
Stevebitt300
03-29-12, 08:46
With Ca's 10rd mag restriction, what 10rd mag is legal for nra/cmp competition? Are we restricted to steel/aluminum usgi-type mags? Who makes a 20rd length mag that's restricted/modded for 10rd if an "as issued" profile is needed for the mags?
CProducts at least used to sell blocked 20 rounders. Check 44mag.com
I carry a Colt XM16E1 in my squad cars rifle rack. The SN.# is 559xxx I put short barrels and collapsible stocks on them and stored the original A1 hand guards,barrels and stocks. If we ever have to turn them back in they have to be in the issued configuration. We paid 25.00 a piece for the guns 10 years ago. They even came US Mail! We got 24 of them.
Yup ours came in the mail too. Just paid shipping about $42, inflation!
When I deployed to Baghdad in 2004, I was issued what I could only describe as a museum piece. Now, this was the Air Force mind you, but it was an old A-1 with the 3-prong flash hider. Came with 3 20-rd mags and no cleaning kit. At the time, I was "in" to guns but not nearly as much as now since I retired. I wish I'd have taken pics of that thing, It was pretty neat. As others have noticed, the AF will use it till it breaks, then move the remaining pieces around. Funny part, I wasen't allowed to forward deploy to Afganistan on account of my rifle was full auto, not 3-rd burst....was even stated on my orders.
Too bad Clinton prevented those old M-16s from being made available through the CMP.
Yup. What a shame. Perhaps this will happen one day.
What is that rifle at 1:10?
AR-18?
I think the Colt 9mm AR has that twist ratio.
When I deployed to Baghdad in 2004, I was issued what I could only describe as a museum piece. Now, this was the Air Force mind you, but it was an old A-1 with the 3-prong flash hider. Came with 3 20-rd mags and no cleaning kit. At the time, I was "in" to guns but not nearly as much as now since I retired. I wish I'd have taken pics of that thing, It was pretty neat. As others have noticed, the AF will use it till it breaks, then move the remaining pieces around. Funny part, I wasen't allowed to forward deploy to Afganistan on account of my rifle was full auto, not 3-rd burst....was even stated on my orders.
What? My M4 was auto. About half the platoons was.
ffhounddog
05-21-12, 10:36
Must be an Air Force thing Steve. There are odd rules for some.
I think the Colt 9mm AR has that twist ratio.
Hes asking about the video, and yes it's an AR-18.
Decodeddies I went to the Wick too. Did you ever get to see the Singer 1911! That gun made me salavate we even got to shoot it :D.
Guys check out this thread for some old warriors still in action.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58837
Here is the rollmark of the the gun we received last year. It now has a BCM 11.5" upper on it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1433
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1433
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1434
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1431
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1426
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1430
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1428
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1427
Absolutely amazing what Uncle Sugar has stashed away in bunkers all over the states. That Rifle looks factory fresh.
I agree. The only thing that threw me was the BCG with grooves for a forward assist.
Magic_Salad0892
12-30-12, 10:13
I really wish that the government would sell these old M16 guns as pre-'86 transferable guns.
If they released a shitload of 'em at the same time I'd be able to score one at a decent price.
I really wish that the government would sell these old M16 guns as pre-'86 transferable guns.
If they released a shitload of 'em at the same time I'd be able to score one at a decent price.
I agree! The paperwork on that gun has a big red stamp stating it is not transferable. Bummer! It has a 322,000 serial number!:confused:
What? My M4 was auto. About half the platoons was.
Could be an AF specific issue/order.
bigredneck61088
01-10-13, 18:08
We have a few of the a1s at my dept... sweet shooters and fun for sure with the fun switch! Trying to get detective to issue me one so i can tinker...
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Anniston Al. where AR's go to die. I was unfortunate enough to be given a demonstration on how they are destroyed. The handguards and buttstock are removed and the rest of the rifle is dropped into a hopper, underneath is a machine called "Capt. Crunch" which has a set of cams similar to an automotive cam which the rifle is fed through. At the bottom of the machine is a large trough that collects all the scrap metal, any part bigger than 1" is tossed back in. Truly a disgusting waste of fine firearms and my tax $$$.
A few months after my visit I heard they had fed "Capt.Crunch" some M14's, having a receiver that is a lot tougher than an AR caused some serious damage to the evil Capt. which took many months to repair, further reinforcing my belief in "karma".
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