View Full Version : LAV and the carbine length system
I know the consensus from the vets/experts here is that unless it is shorter than 14.5", the gun 'should be' a mid-length system.
I just wanted to know MORE about why Larry Vickers had his "signature" carbine made a carbine system. The mid/carbine length debate is done, but anyone with more info on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
ForTehNguyen
09-24-11, 09:45
i think one reason was he liked to have the 12oclock rail in front of the FST so he can mount a light in the 12oclock position
I know the consensus from the vets/experts here is that unless it is shorter than 14.5", the gun 'should be' a mid-length system.
I don't believe that is the consensus.
I run carbine length so I can mount stuff at 12 oclock. I find this to be more important than any theoretical gain from having a mid length gas system.
Dos Cylindros
09-24-11, 15:52
My work carbine is 7" gas, and my personal is 9" (middy) gas. Not really much of a difference between the two other than rail length for me. I would not feel slighted if I only had a carbine gas system, they work and have worked well for a long time.
I would not feel slighted if I only had a carbine gas system, they work and have worked well for a long time.
+1 On this.
I have NEVER had any desire what so ever to own a mid length system.
Im not bashing on anyones rifle, but the benefits are not that great.
Marginal recoil reduction and a little bit of reduced wear is not everything to.
ForTehNguyen
09-24-11, 16:05
Marginal recoil reduction and a little bit of reduced wear is not everything to.
even ignoring these two benefits, 2" of extra handguard helps a lot. I have to extend carbine stocks (center of mass further out) just to shoulder one comfortably
even ignoring these two benefits, 2" of extra handguard helps a lot. I have to extend carbine stocks (center of mass further out) just to shoulder one comfortably
Okay. Thats something that can be fixed with a FF handguard and low pro gas block.
The longer sight radius of the mid-length can also be fixed with a FF and gas block.
Besides the use of extractor and heavy buffer, what does the mid length offer that you cannot convert the CAR length to?
I just never got it. Its personal preference I know and I respect others decisions.
jonconsiglio
09-24-11, 17:26
For a time, I really thought the mid lenth gas system was the answer, but I've started to rethink that a bit. I do believe it's probably the better choice on a 16" barrel, but on the 14.5", I think the mid length can be pushing it a bit. Cold weather, a dirty/dusty environment and a not-so-clean rifle can start to get a bit finicky when compared to a carbine gassed 14.5" from the same company.
It's also very company dependent.. A Colt with a proper spec carbine gas port compared to maybe a DPMS or Bushmaster, there will be a considerable difference.
As for Larry Vickers… I can't speak for him, but if you look at the equipment he uses, it's somewhat inline with what our military uses in the way of style. Also, he seems to choose his gear based on quality and reliability - and most likely something that has a long proven track record.
justin_247
09-24-11, 17:35
Send him an e-mail and ask him.
I can think of a few reasons. He's probably used carbine-length systems for most of his life and is more familiar as a result. Most M-4 style carbines out there still use a carbine-length gas system, so it would make sense for the instructor to be using the same system.
I think reliability is probably an important factor, as well. I have ZERO experience with 14.5" middys, but they do seem to be a bit finicky with ammo based upon what I've read. I'm sure that, given time, those issues will be worked out just like how the issues with the MK18 were.
I guess that he wanted an fsp for the ruggedness of the sights, and the fsp rail for space. I have an fsp rail and can get my hand out pretty far for leverage and get things mounted also farther out. Just wondered if he/others may have reason to believe that reliability is improved in poor conditions with a carbine system.
I have a mid-length--a BCM EAG 14.5" hammer forger barrel with a fixed flashhider.
Side by side it has a tad less recoil than a carbine length, but since we are talking 5.56 that is hardly a deal killer unless you are 3-gunning and trying to squeeze every tenth of a second out of your gear. I am running the midlength on a Colt 6940 lower with the standard H buffer and so far have had no issues in over 3000 rounds including one day of a Pat Rogers class and 3 days of a Jason Falla class. I've seen BCM midlengths in Pat's & other classes and I don't remember any issues with them.
I do believe it's probably the better choice on a 16" barrel, but on the 14.5", I think the mid length can be pushing it a bit. Cold weather, a dirty/dusty environment and a not-so-clean rifle can start to get a bit finicky when compared to a carbine gassed 14.5" from the same company.
I still wonder about this myself--how the gun performs when dirty or in cold environments since it doesn't have the gas impulse of a standard length. During the Jason Falla class last December in Oklahoma it got into the teens and I was running Black Hills .223--not 5.56mm. And had no issues. I realize my experience is just a sample of one.
I look at it this way, a midlength from a quality company is nice if you can afford it, but if not I would not worry about it at all as long as you have a decent carbine length like a Colt/BCM/Daniel Defense/etc. I had the opportunity to buy the BCM midlength upper and sell some other stuff so it really did not cut into my cash or credit cards to pick one up.
Some people bitch about carbine length guns when compared to midlengths, but carbine lengths have been thoroughly proven.
DeltaSierra
09-24-11, 21:25
I still wonder about this myself--how the gun performs when dirty or in cold environments since it doesn't have the gas impulse of a standard length. During the Jason Falla class last December in Oklahoma it got into the teens and I was running Black Hills .223--not 5.56mm. And had no issues. I realize my experience is just a sample of one.
I'll have a chance to test this out this winter...
I'm planning on picking up a BCM 14.5" middy with a permed BC 1.5 as soon as I sell a rifle that I don't use anymore...
Since we get some pretty cold winters up here, it should be a good time to do some tests.
I'll be using PMC 55 grain ammunition and a VLTOR A5 buffer system for the tests.
I'll post results if I remember...
Not much to add, but this last January or February I went to the range about put about 100-150 rounds through my BCM EAG and it ran in the teens just as well as it does in the 90's. I was using the standard H buffer and the Hornady training ammo.
Jay Cunningham
09-24-11, 22:38
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63961
Possibly some answers.
I think I have built at least 5 or 6 midlengths and no one of them has had an issue. Sometimes I wonder of it was the chef in the kitchen that is the problem.
Jay Cunningham
09-25-11, 01:34
I know the consensus from the vets/experts here is that unless it is shorter than 14.5", the gun 'should be' a mid-length system.
I just wanted to know MORE about why Larry Vickers had his "signature" carbine made a carbine system. The mid/carbine length debate is done, but anyone with more info on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
Not Larry (nor do I speak for him) but I think the simple answer is that Larry strongly prefers a fixed FSB and also an x300 in front of it. The easy way to do that is with a cutout rail, and that combination of pieces parts winds up being a carbine gas system.
The End.
I just watched a video on the DD web site where LAV was announcing the release of the DD MFR (modular float rail). Click on the MFR pic under rail systems. Says he's putting one on his gun. He won't be able to use the standard FSB with the 12.0 MFR so he would probably use the DD clamp on FSB set back on the rail to still have room for the X300 out front. I see where Noveske has stopped selling their carbine length gas system N4 CHF barrels in 14.5 and 16 inch lengths. IMHO rifles properly setup and lubed using either length gas system and using quality ammo will work just fine in all conditions on 14.5 or 16 inch barreled guns.
ForTehNguyen
09-25-11, 08:17
Okay. Thats something that can be fixed with a FF handguard and low pro gas block.
The longer sight radius of the mid-length can also be fixed with a FF and gas block.
Besides the use of extractor and heavy buffer, what does the mid length offer that you cannot convert the CAR length to?
why would someone spend extra money to do a 9" rail conversion on a on a carbine upper when you dont have to do it for a midlength, and when both uppers are the same price even.
Sometimes I wonder of it was the chef in the kitchen that is the problem.
I was going to say the same thing. When people start having problems with 14.5" mid's, its usually followed by "It won't work with my Spike's buffer or my H3".
There is a balance you have to strike with gas systems.
I would agree the LAV gun seems to be more of an equipment setup (X300/FSB) choice than a length of gas system choice.
Why can't people just buy a gun based on what works best to create their desired configuration?
CaptainDooley
09-25-11, 09:18
My wonder is why no one has done an extended rail with a cut out for a middy FSB and rail at 12 o'clock in font of it. Isn't there room on a 13" rail?
Jay Cunningham
09-25-11, 09:23
Why can't people just buy a gun based on what works best to create their desired configuration?
I hope that was intended to be rhetorical.
My wonder is why no one has done an extended rail with a cut out for a middy FSB and rail at 12 o'clock in font of it. Isn't there room on a 13" rail?
A 12" rail with a cut out, like this (https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/ar15-lite-railtm-12-0-fspm-mid-length.html), would need to be around 14" to accomplish the same feel. Not sure about you, but I think that pushes things to near excessive.
jonconsiglio
09-25-11, 12:35
I should probably clarify that I didn't mean the 14.5" Middy was unreliable. All I meant to say was that we hear complaints now and then and it's usually when someone is dicking with it. My experience with the BCM 16" Middy and my SR15's is that they would run reliably with any ammo I ran and a few different lower configurations like the standard A5, a carbine or an H buffer. I've never seen one choke unless there was a bad mag or some other outside cause.
My limited experience with the 14.5" Middy is the same, but I hear a lot more issues here on this forum with it than I do the 16" Middy or 14.5" carbine.
For me, I'm sending my SR15 off to have the URX II replaced. Ice started thinking about selling the barrel and bolt and replacing the barrel with a 14.5". So, I've been thinking a lot about which gas system to go with if I do. Purely from a reliability aspect, I think the carbine is my first choice though I'm still debating.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there's no milspec on the 14.5" gas port, each manufacturing may do it differently. I know Noveske uses larger ports than BCM and LMT, so that will affect my decision as well.
Didn't meant imply they were horribly unreliable and get people worked up! ;)
I started this based on thinking of a new build, and then was reminded by Grant that LAV preferred the carbine setup. I have the basic DD M4 with FSP rail, and the next I was considering a middy. But, having a 14.5" lightweight barrel with FSP rail sounds like a very nice setup. My son has a 16" middy, which feels pretty good, but with a manual light/switch, you cannot get your hand as far fwd as I might like. I am starting to realize that the basic FSP carbine setup MAY be a good thing, still ready for prime time. Right now I have a light on a DD off-set mount and that is fine, but not very ambi. Also, I would like to have a sling mount more fwd, so slinging over the back is easier. But, an X300 gives a few more options. Thus, I can see the reasoning behind the LAV setup. BCM has a LW 14.5" upper that is about perfect albeit without CHF barrel - maybe not a big deal.
I also suppose that DD and BCM use a well thought-out gas port to keep wear to a minimum?
If you pick up a tad bit in reliability, then that might be icing on the cake. Again, seems like the majority like the 'tad more' in less wear than 'tad more' in supposed reliability these days - hence, the popularity of the middy.
I do think (from reading) that the right carbine gas port also makes a difference. Wonder how these stack up with BCM, DD, LMT, PSA, etc.
BTW - thanks all. Glad this didn't really turn into a carbine/middy war.
There isn't anything wrong with a carbine gas system on a 14.5" barrel. Not too much different from running a mid-length on a 16".
But guys take a 14.5" mid-length, and want to start dicking with buffer weights and can't grasp why it doesn't lock back on every mag on PMC Bronze.
The only thing I have against a 14.5" barrel is having to deal with a pinned/welded muzzle device. Heck, if it wasn't for NFA, I'd probably be running a 12.5" Noveske.
even ignoring these two benefits, 2" of extra handguard helps a lot. I have to extend carbine stocks (center of mass further out) just to shoulder one comfortably
I think that I understand what you are saying, but still, isn't the center of mass further forward on a middie and not a carbine?
I'm not the tallest guy (5'9") so it seemed that the only reason that I needed the extra length of a 9" handguard was to support the weight that was balanced further out front.
why would someone spend extra money to do a 9" rail conversion on a on a carbine upper when you dont have to do it for a midlength, and when both uppers are the same price even.
I dont know. The same reason someone would buy an upper based almost entirely on hype I guess???
Not to mention, those SAME PRICE uppers come with NO handguard. Taking the FSB off only takes a minute
Doc Safari
09-25-11, 21:47
I was originally attracted to the mid-length M4 as a way to extend the life of the bolt and gas port due to the mid-length gas system being less punishing to them. The trouble is, it's an improvement but not a solution. Remember even Filthy 14 eventually broke a bolt. Maybe it went a few thousand rounds longer than a carbine would have; maybe not.
It seems the only way to really extend component life is to go rifle length.
So that leaves milder perceived recoil and extra rail area as reasons to own the middies.
I certainly can appreciate the extra real estate for hand placement on the mid-length, but recoil of the M4 is already pretty mild compared to some of the bruisers I've fired.
Maybe LAV simply prefers the carbine length, and doesn't see that much of an advantage to the mid-length. He seems to be a "keep it simple, stupid" kind of guy (I've never met him), so maybe he just errs on the side of his extensive experience with the carbine.
It seems the only way to really extend component life is to go rifle length.
I don't think thats really true. I'm sure in the history of M16s, there have been more than a few broken bolts on full size rifles. Any mechanical device is subject to failure. Guns are built around certian specs, such as MPI/HPT to reduce unexpected failures.
IIRC, 14 made it way past the expected service life of the parts. If you replace parts on a PM basis based on round count and inspection, I doubt you would ever see any serious issues.
This is also a reason why I may consider a 16" "dissipator" build, which provides PLENTY of rail/handguard space, a middy system, and FSP. In this mode, I can mount a cheaper but good light on the right side and operate it well with either hand, AND still have plenty of room for the support hand in various positions, and sling mount.
Otherwise, the FSP rail and X300 setup is pretty good.
It would be nice to know how a properly ported carbine really fairs against a middy in terms of longevity.
This thread inspired me to go shoot an old Colt 16" that I had Robb Jensen put a Daniel Defense Omega X FSP rail on. Irons only. With an H3 buffer and Sprinco "red" spring it was very enjoyable to shoot. No failures to lock back with XM193, PMC, or IMI.
I had just cleaned the barrel prior to this outing, and its accuracy certainly hasn't degraded.
Failure2Stop
09-26-11, 13:57
There have been many improvements to the system since overgassed and underbuilt M4esque carbines first flooded the market: heavier buffers, better action springs, better extractor springs, duty quality compensators, better bolts, improved recoil systems, better knowledge on proper porting and assembly, etc.
If I got a free carbine gas upper I would merrily stick it on one of my lowers and shoot the hell out of it. When it comes to 16" guns, I prefer mid-length gas system, but I don't think it's a necessity any more than an A5 recoil system is.
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