View Full Version : S&W 637 vs. 642
I've not seen much discussion on S&W J-Frames here and I had a question for the experts. I am looking into buying either a 637 or a 642, but can't make up my mind which would be better for my uses. I currently have a Ruger LCP which I use for pocket carry and would like to use the J-frame to rotate in during the winter time and maybe even as a full time carry gun. My question is on the topic of exposed vs. internal hammer. I really like the idea of being able to shoot single action if I want, but I figure if I ever needed to use the gun it would be used in double action, so I may as well practice in double action anyways. My concern with the exposed hammer is with pocket carry and the possibility of something snagging the hammer and the possibility of a ND. Is this even a feasible concern? I have a manager at work who would like to sell a 642 which she bought about a year and a half ago (lock version), and she said she would sell it for $100 less than the going rate for a new one, which I have found to be in the $350-$370 range. Do you all think it would be fair to start at an offer of $250? Or should try to find one without the lock?
ETA: She bought the pistol new and she says it is in like-new condition.
Thanks guys,
Mark
i was looking at the 638 and 642, went with the 642. Assuming you're using it as a defensive gun, i'd say the ability to use single action is of no help. Could potentially be a safety or legal liability, but i'll leave that judgement up to you.
other cool thing about the 642 is how high up the back strap you can get your hand, it makes for a very low effective bore axis. Totally snag free in the pocket too.
GrandPooba
09-26-11, 15:08
IMO, go for the 642. Snag free. No channel to get lint into the gun. I think you can get your firing hand higher up on the 642 as well.
Add an apex trigger upgrade (its only $25) and the DA becomes very shootable.
titsonritz
09-26-11, 15:36
I have a manager at work who would like to sell a 642 which she bought about a year and a half ago (lock version), and she said she would sell it for $100 less than the going rate for a new one, which I have found to be in the $350-$370 range. Do you all think it would be fair to start at an offer of $250? Or should try to find one without the lock?
I would not want a model with an internal lock; however they can be removed and a good deal is a good deal.
S&W Internal Lock Removal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPYgohVCNM)
+1 on the 642 for all the reasons mentioned above.
PA PATRIOT
09-26-11, 16:14
If your serious about a true pocket J-Frame try to find a S&W Model-337 and have the hammer bobbed and rounded to were you can still shoot single action but it greatly reduces the snag factor. This is one light weight revolver and the wife loves to borrow it for bike riding and running. I most times forget thats its in my pocket when using it as a BUG.
Here is a pre-lock version at a good price,
http://www.budsbuysguns.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/72
I have the 442, which is the blue brother of the 642.
I bought it specifically for pocket carry and it does that perfectly.
These guns are so light that I doubt you are going to shoot pop cans all afternoon, playing with single action mode.
If the lady is giving you a good deal, take it. You could always sell it later if you find something more to your liking.
As a side note, I have pocket carried a Ruger SP101, and have found that the hammer doesn't interfere at all. But as always, ymmv.
I prefer the 442/642 series - it is perfect IMHO.
If you do go hammered it absolutely must be bobbed for loose pocket carry. Yes, you will have an ND, otherwise. You really should have a pocket holster anyway, for safety.
If the 642 is not a double action only version you can still fire the gun in single action mode. All non-DAO guns have the ability to stack the trigger before the SA break, all it takes is practice. SA really is only for range use so there is no reason not to learn how to stack it. They are damn accurate guns. I'd suggest you get a good trigger job on it anyway to improve trigger control. A good job there will also improve your ability to feel the single action mode and control the break as it stacks in DA. Sometimes you get lucky with a factory gun.
You will want to disable the trigger lock as well for trigger smoothness and PEACE OF MIND, justified or not, but of course, that will get you in trouble in court, but we don't really care about that after the fact.
Why not make a good offer for you - you can always go up!
You will want to disable the trigger lock as well for trigger smoothness and PEACE OF MIND, justified or not, but of course, that will get you in trouble in court, but we don't really care about that after the fact.
a little FYI for the original poster- these guns ARE available with no lock. smith and wesson has been making them with AND without the lock fora couple years now. it's not just a limited run or whatever your dealer with only lock versions says.
Thanks for all the replies and info guys. I went ahead and hammered out a deal with her on the 642. We ended up at $280 out the door. I don't think that is too bad of a deal since the gun only has about 200 rounds through it. I will be ordering the Apex kit which should bring the trigger down to 9 lbs, as well as a set of rosewood grips from http://altamontco.com/products/pistol/smith_and_wesson/J-Frame/index.php
I had no idea that it was possible to disable the locking mechanism. That is good info, but I may hold off on doing that due to possible legal concerns. With the little reading I have done, lock failures seem prone to only the 329 and other large-bore guns and while firing hot ammunition. I may be wrong though. Either way, for $280 I don't feel like I am getting hurt. I appreciate all the info everyone!
Awesome deal! You'll be really happy with that gun. If you want to train for fun with it you can load up full wadcutters really cheap with very little powder and no recoil. You can load them backwards as well - expanding base side out - for insane expansion at low velocities on those poor little varmints :D
If you do go hammered it absolutely must be bobbed for loose pocket carry. Yes, you will have an ND, otherwise.
How would not bobbing the hammer cause an ND in pocket carry?
I prefer the 442/642 series - it is perfect IMHO.
If the 642 is not a double action only version you can still fire the gun in single action mode.
You may "prefer" the 442/642 series, but apparently you've never held one in your hand.
All 442/642 series guns are DAO. The hammer is concealed in the frame. There's no way to cock it.
You will want to disable the trigger lock as well for trigger smoothness and PEACE OF MIND, justified or not, but of course, that will get you in trouble in court, but we don't really care about that after the fact.
Do you have some information about someone being "in trouble" just for disabling the trigger lock in a carry gun?
How would not bobbing the hammer cause an ND in pocket carry?
People have! Figure it out
You may "prefer" the 442/642 series, but apparently you've never held one in your hand.
WTF is wrong with you? I have shot them for 30 years.
All 442/642 series guns are DAO. The hammer is concealed in the frame. There's no way to cock it.
Any S&W can be fire in SA mode without touching the hammer - concealed or not. There is a difference between a double action S&W and a double action only S&W. If YOU had been around them longer perhaps you would know what I am talking about - go ask someone else - really not in the mood to explain it to you.
Do you have some information about someone being "in trouble" just for disabling the trigger lock in a carry gun?
AGAIN, you need to educate yourself on the modern problems that develop in the court room after a self-defense discharge.
... I will be ordering the Apex kit which should bring the trigger down to 9 lbs, as well as a set of rosewood grips from http://altamontco.com/products/pistol/smith_and_wesson/J-Frame/index.php
It's your gun, so by all means do what you want with it.
With that said, unless the trigger pull is absolutely unacceptable I'd leave the mainspring alone. I carry a J-frame because I want my carry gun to go "bang" every single time. Putting a lighter mainspring on a carry gun with a hammer of relatively low mass just doesn't make sense to me.
You got a good deal, bTW.
People have! Figure it out
Gosh, i'm trying to. Can you help? Please...explain to me how a non bobbed hammer on a S&W J frame can cause an ND in pocket carry.
WTF is wrong with you? I have shot them for 30 years.
Well then, you must have a large level of experience. Please, educate the rest of us.
Any S&W can be fire in SA mode without touching the hammer - concealed or not.
There is a difference between a double action S&W and a double action only S&W.
If YOU had been around them longer perhaps you would know what I am talking
about - go ask someone else - really not in the mood to explain it to you.
Oh please...please.... tell me how you can fire a 442/642 in single action mode?
When I went through the S&W armorer's course in the 80's they failed to cover that.
AGAIN, you need to educate yourself on the modern problems that develop in the court room after a self-defense discharge.
Again, you refuse to impart your wisdom.
C'mon, how can guys like me learn?
Tell us about how folks have gotten in trouble in court for removing the trigger lock from S&W revolver for carry use.
just be advised that getting grips based on looks dosen't always work out. i have a beautiful set of black ebony checkered secret service grips that are a pain to shoot. i'll be selling them eventually.
hogues are nice in that they are comfortable to shoot, don't interfere with a pocket or ankle draw, and do not have a screw to rust during non-winter carry.
Hogue Bantam (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=842242), midwayusa.com/, $18.49
If the 642 is not a double action only version you can still fire the gun in single action mode.
Heck, I'm still looking for the non double action only version of a 642.
Did they recently discontinue it?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764961_-1_757912_757910_757787_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_(firearms)
Double-action
A double-action, also known as double action only (DAO) to prevent confusion with DA/SA designs, is similar to a DA revolver trigger mechanism; however, there is no single action function. A good example of this action is the Sig Sauer DAK trigger. For semi-automatic pistols with a traditional hammer (that employ only the double action function of the trigger), the hammer will return to its decocked position after each shot. Subsequent shots require the double action trigger firing sequence. For striker-fired pistols such as the Taurus 24/7, the striker will remain in the rest position through the entire reloading cycle. This term applies mostly to semi-automatic handguns; however, the term can also apply to some revolvers such as the Smith & Wesson Centennial, the Type 26 Revolver, and the Enfield No. 2 Mk I revolvers, in which there is no external hammer spur. Glock and Kahr semi-automatic pistols are not DA (or DAO) pistols because the striker is "cocked" to an intermediate position by the operation of the slide and they cannot be re-activated by pulling the trigger a second time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Centennial
S&W Centennial is a family of 5-shot revolvers made by Smith & Wesson on the "J-Frame". Centennial's feature a fully enclosed hammer, which makes them Double Action Only (DAO) firearms. Like nearly all other "J-frame" Smith & Wesson revolvers, they have a swing-out cylinder. Smith & Wesson manufactures "Centennial" revolvers in .38 Special +P (Models 40, 442 and 642), 9mm Luger (Model 940) and .357 Magnum (Models 340 and 640). Centennial models have been made in different versions like PD "Personal Defense", LS "Lady Smith", and M&P "Military & Police"
Alaskapopo
10-01-11, 19:36
AGAIN, you need to educate yourself on the modern problems that develop in the court room after a self-defense discharge.
If I am not mistaken Jake'sDad is a retired LEO and I am sure he knows a thing or two about the aftermath of self defense shootings in court. I am also a LEO and I can tell you in a good shoot it does not matter that much what you used or how you modified the gun. When that stuff matters is in a bad shoot. Meaning you missed the target (badguy) and hit an innocent. People make a lot out of what can happen in court. The only time I saw a DA try to make an issue of it was when the defendant owned a lot of firearms. She looked over to me (I was the case officer sitting next to her) and asked about making a big deal about him owning an arsenal. I told her I own far more firearms than the defendant did and it would not go well to use that line of attack. I also know of another case where a preacher shot two burglars in the back as they ran away. (bad shoot) The DA tried to make a issue of the defendant upping his CCW permit from a .38 revolver to a .44 mag revolver. That argument did not fly and the defendant was aquitted. The reason he was aquitted in my opinion was people in the area were tired of the two suspects burglarizing their homes. I have never seen or heard of a case where handloads were an issue, or removing a safety feature etc.
Pat
Zackly....
If you remove the lock, and your five year old takes it and shoots a neighbor kid with it, you might have something to worry about. After a good shooting and you removed it to preclude it locking up when you need it? Not gonna be a problem.
S&W Centennial is a family of 5-shot revolvers made by Smith & Wesson on the "J-Frame". Centennial's feature a fully enclosed hammer, which makes them Double Action Only (DAO) firearms.
Crap.
You mean there isn't a way to shoot it in single action?
Damn..... thought I was gonna learn something new.....
Guess I can cancel that Gunbroker search for a non DAO 642/442 now too.....
Usually I don't mind a good poke at my expense, but since you're so cocksure of yourself Jack'sAss, I had a pre-1 model matte nickle stainless/aluminum 442 (before the 642 existed) that I carried for years and it was NOT DAO, I know this because I tore it down and smoothed up the frame. The hammer had a single action notch on it. Many S&W without access to the hammer were, in fact, not DAO because they still had single action notches. The fact that you can't get TO THE HAMMER doesn't mean they are DAO. When the SA notch is gone then they are DAO and usually would have a completely different sear. Otherwise, you can easily pull through the DA stroke and feel it hit the notch and wait until you feel like pulling further to complete the break.
BUT my initial reply was concerning staging/stacking any S&W DA trigger to fire as if in SA mode by trigger control BECAUSE THE OP WAS WANTING THAT ABILITY IN A DA! Nice that my intent is so wonderfully received Jack.
I believe Keith first coined the term "staging the trigger." I guess it is just a lost art on those of you who aren't into revolvers. It works just like a SA stage, but isn't cocked per se and it functions nearly as well for fine ranged shots. It is easier to feel on DAs with coil mainspring rather than leaf, but all it takes familiarity and practice with the S&W to feel where and when the DA mode is going to break.
As for the rest, I choose not to put my faith in District Attorneys...I live in California where law and logic seem to be mutually exclusive. If someone chose to carry a hammered gun in their pocket that is on them. Nor would I know if someone's pocket bug has any kind of hammer block or transfer bar mechanism. I don't assume safety. If I had to I'd at least bob it or put it in a holster that covered the trigger or not carry anything else in there - especially my keys. I you feel like laughing at caution, go for it. I don't need proof to know something is a bad idea.
Usually I don't mind a good poke at my expense, but since you're so cocksure of yourself Jack'sAss, I had a pre-1 model matte nickle stainless/aluminum 442 (before the 642 existed) that I carried for years and it was NOT DAO, I know this because I tore it down and smoothed up the frame. The hammer had a single action notch on it. Many S&W without access to the hammer were, in fact, not DAO because they still had single action notches. The fact that you can't get TO THE HAMMER doesn't mean they are DAO. .
You post that pile of steaming bullshit, and call me "Jack'sAss"?
Thank God for the internet, where no nothing punks like you, can sound like a tough guy without fear of having your teeth separated from your ass.
What's your handle on GT or the "other site"?
I believe Keith first coined the term "staging the trigger." I guess it is just a lost art on those of you who aren't into revolvers. It works just like a SA stage, but isn't cocked per se and it functions nearly as well for fine ranged shots. It is easier to feel on DAs with coil mainspring rather than leaf, but all it takes familiarity and practice with the S&W to feel where and when the DA mode is going to break.
Wow, staging a double action trigger?
What an amazing concept!!
I wish I had known about that when I was winning PPC matches in the 1970's......
As for the rest, I choose not to put my faith in District Attorneys...I live in California where law and logic seem to be mutually exclusive. If someone chose to carry a hammered gun in their pocket that is on them. Nor would I know if someone's pocket bug has any kind of hammer block or transfer bar mechanism. I don't assume safety. If I had to I'd at least bob it or put it in a holster that covered the trigger or not carry anything else in there - especially my keys. I you feel like laughing at caution, go for it. I don't need proof to know something is a bad idea.
You really have no idea how S&W's work do you?
An S&W J frame can't fire unless the trigger is pulled to the rear, regardless of what catches the unbobbed hammer.
Alaskapopo
10-02-11, 01:50
Usually I don't mind a good poke at my expense, but since you're so cocksure of yourself Jack'sAss, I had a pre-1 model matte nickle stainless/aluminum 442 (before the 642 existed) that I carried for years and it was NOT DAO, I know this because I tore it down and smoothed up the frame. The hammer had a single action notch on it. Many S&W without access to the hammer were, in fact, not DAO because they still had single action notches. The fact that you can't get TO THE HAMMER doesn't mean they are DAO. When the SA notch is gone then they are DAO and usually would have a completely different sear. Otherwise, you can easily pull through the DA stroke and feel it hit the notch and wait until you feel like pulling further to complete the break.
BUT my initial reply was concerning staging/stacking any S&W DA trigger to fire as if in SA mode by trigger control BECAUSE THE OP WAS WANTING THAT ABILITY IN A DA! Nice that my intent is so wonderfully received Jack.
I believe Keith first coined the term "staging the trigger." I guess it is just a lost art on those of you who aren't into revolvers. It works just like a SA stage, but isn't cocked per se and it functions nearly as well for fine ranged shots. It is easier to feel on DAs with coil mainspring rather than leaf, but all it takes familiarity and practice with the S&W to feel where and when the DA mode is going to break.
As for the rest, I choose not to put my faith in District Attorneys...I live in California where law and logic seem to be mutually exclusive. If someone chose to carry a hammered gun in their pocket that is on them. Nor would I know if someone's pocket bug has any kind of hammer block or transfer bar mechanism. I don't assume safety. If I had to I'd at least bob it or put it in a holster that covered the trigger or not carry anything else in there - especially my keys. I you feel like laughing at caution, go for it. I don't need proof to know something is a bad idea.
Its obvious you posted something that was incorrect. Just own up to it and move on. Its much better than digging a deeper hole trying to cover yourself. Staging a DA trigger is no single action nor is the 442 or 642 or any revolver where the hammer is covered and you can not physically cock it.
Pat
Ok, I'm heading out for the day, let's all settle down here.
It's also know as camming, it was taught here and there, but generally in self defense arena's not a very useful method of manipulating the trigger. Is it possible that long ago, SW only had DA/SA lock work and that's what went into the initial enclosed models? Under stress, you are more than likely pulling through that stage of the pull and firing the shot. Learning how to correctly work a DAO or a DA through it's cycle and not influence the gun is more important than taking the time to perfect what I feel is a target or maybe hunting practice. I could be well into my second shot by the time another shooter has slowed down to be able to "cam" his shot to be "more accurate" Not sure what they have in the revolver arsenal now, but NYPD once bobbed the hammers and ground off the single action notch in the day. Not that they are the clearing house on all things, but I would call that a clue-an I'm not a detective.
Sun's coming up and you're on two feet so let's have a great day here:cool:
Not sure what they have in the revolver arsenal now, but NYPD once bobbed the hammers and ground off the single action notch in the day. Not that they are the clearing house on all things, but I would call that a clue-an I'm not a detective.
LAPD mandated DAO on their revolvers as well. Mainly to curb the "hey, stop, I'm really serious", cocking of guns, which sometimes led to the "shit, didn't mean to actually shoot that guy, guess I better write a really good report" incidents.
Guys like Jack Weaver and Eldon Carl could make double action hits out to 100 yards and further, faster that most could today with a 1911 and 3 lb trigger, and would do so to demonstrate the accuracy potential of DA to academy classes. Staging the trigger was the way it was done for those kind of shots, but unless you put a bunch of rounds downrange, shooting PPC, etc., you're right, the transition was hard to make under stress.
From the pictures I've seen of Jack Weaver's grip it was the same(?) / similar to Jerry Miculek's J-Frame grip in the sixth panel of this web page:
PRO TIPS with JERRY MICULEK (http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html), Revolver Grip, shootingusa.com/
I believe you're correct.
Here's Jack in his prime.
http://noob.krok.us/weaver.jpg
just be advised that getting grips based on looks dosen't always work out. i have a beautiful set of black ebony checkered secret service grips that are a pain to shoot. i'll be selling them eventually.
hogues are nice in that they are comfortable to shoot, don't interfere with a pocket or ankle draw, and do not have a screw to rust during non-winter carry.
Hogue Bantam (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=842242), midwayusa.com/, $18.49
Thanks for the advice. Maybe I will re-think the wood grips idea. I now have this gun in my hands and I love the size and weight of it. It seems to be in very nice shape. When I got it had not been cleaned, and I looked at the bore and thought to myself, "Man! That rifling is fouled like crazy.". Then I took it home and cleaned it. The bore is very shiny now, but the reason I thought it was fouled was because the rifling in this barrel is extremely shallow. I'll try to get some good pictures of it worth posting, but until then, is this normal? I googled S&W 642 rifling and found two threads on other sites about guys buying brand new 642s and, after the fact, noticing that the crown of their barrel is horrible. For example, one was so bad that there were only 3 out of 6 rifling cuts visible in the crown, and the rifling was cut much deeper in that corresponding hemisphere of the barrel and was non existent in the opposite. Scary stuff there. The other one also complained about the "stippled" laser-etching S&W does now instead of stamping the identification numbers. His looked like a 2nd grader did it with a Dremel tool. Anyways, I don't think mine is that bad, but I'll get some pics up if ya'll would be so kind as to let me know if what I have is acceptable from S&W.
Here are the best pictures I could get with the macro mode on my 4 year old camera, sorry they're not the best but...
http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz29/mhanna91/642rifling005.jpg
http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz29/mhanna91/642rifling002.jpg
And by the way, here is the gun. I know if you've seen one you've seen em' all but there she is.
http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz29/mhanna91/642002.jpg
Thanks for the advice. Maybe I will re-think the wood grips idea.
I'll second f.2's advice about Hogue Bantams. Another is the Pachmayr Professional Compac. If someone is still making the Uncle Mikes Boot grip in rubber, that works well too.
Pretty, sharp wood grips are all the rage these days. They look great in pictures, but for shooting guns that kick, soft spongy materials are a better choice. My Model 329 came with factory Ahrends wood grips that made the gun virtually unshootable with fullhouse .44 mag. Put a set of Hogue's on it, and now it's actually pretty easy to shoot.
I carry a j frame daily and it is a steel older mod 36- the hammer has never been a problem for me but if I had to buy a new snubby today it would likely be a concealed hammer model. while many people buy the alloy or scandiums, I vote for the all stel- not that much difference in everyday carry but much more comfortable to shoot.
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