View Full Version : Small semi vs. small revolver
I am considering a trade or selling my Ruger LCP and obtaining a smith 637. I like the size only a bit larger than the lcp and it has a much more powerful round.
I am going to post it up on the local county message board and see what happens. What would be a fair price for almost perfect used lcp. With extra mag and cheap tula 100rds ammo and iwb Galaco holster.
I would like to have both but I want to limit myself to only 2 pistol calibers and I already have 9mm. So if it were you which would it be? Keep the lcp or take the loss and buy a 637.
I’ve carried J-frames off and on for 30-odd years. They’re classic deep-cover guns, but there are better choices today. A J-frame may be the same length and height as an LCP, but it’s almost as thick as a G26, which affects concealment more than length and height. The G26 holds twice as many shots, has infinitely better sights, and is far easier to reload under stress, which is no small matter…
The J-frame is idiot-simple and utterly proven, which are never bad things, and there are a million good holsters for it. It's never wrong as a deep-cover piece, but you could do better. If you get one, consider a shrouded-hammer model like the 442 or 642 over a 637.
Okie John
you are right about the width. I just left the gun shop and tried it with a couple of different holsters to get a feel for it and it was a little unwieldy i think that i will just be stuck with both if the lcp doesnt sell.
I am considering a trade or selling my Ruger LCP and obtaining a smith 637. I like the size only a bit larger than the lcp and it has a much more powerful round.
I am going to post it up on the local county message board and see what happens. What would be a fair price for almost perfect used lcp. With extra mag and cheap tula 100rds ammo and iwb Galaco holster.
I would like to have both but I want to limit myself to only 2 pistol calibers and I already have 9mm. So if it were you which would it be? Keep the lcp or take the loss and buy a 637.
Since you already stock 9mm ammo, why not consider a small single stack 9mm gun instead of the j-frame? There is a variety of them available now. The Walther PPS (at least in 9mm)is a very good proven gun, IMO/IME. My Kahr PM9 finally seems reliable. The PM9 and its less expensive twin, the CM9, are very small, almost as small as an LCP, and smaller in most dimensions than a j-frame.
Before I retired I had carried a Mod 36 S&W as a primary (way back) and then a secondary in an Alessi ankle rig, eventually I switched to a semi for a backup, a Walther P99c. Roughly the same size of the "J" frame and carried 11 rounds of 9mm vs the 5 of the 36. Also had a Keltec P3AT as a 3rd gun. While the wheelguns do have a place and serve a valid role, the small semis are IMO the way to go as they can carry more of and better defensive round and are easier to conceal. The 380 serves a purpose but I would never consider using one as my primary weapon.
Nephrology
09-28-11, 15:25
How are you going to carry it? I went to buy a summer pistol a few months ago and considered a 5 shot J frame but realized that, all other things equal, I was so proficient and invested in Glocks that a G26 was a better compromise. I had ruled out pocket carry as it simply is not method that I thought could work for me, so with IWB being the only real way to go, the G26 was an easy choice.
TriviaMonster
09-28-11, 15:37
Yeah j frames are great, simple, and reliable. However, a single stack 9mm is hard to beat, and there are several good ones on the market. Reloading is an important factor missed by a lot of people in the ccw world. Never overestimate a hand gun round, as history has shown us, even 17+ hits center mass from a .40 may not be enough. That is one reason I prefer the semi auto over a revolver. The pm9 or cheaper cm9 are great guns, and have proven themselves reliable if maintained properly. Or go double stack if you can carry it.
Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk
warpedcamshaft
09-28-11, 16:31
This is a tough one. I would like to hear other peoples input on the subject. This is a classic argument.
For small weapons (jframe size revolvers and Kahr/Keltec size auto in 380 or 9mm):
Revolvers offer some distinct advantages:
Contact shots.
Will not fail to load a new round during physical altercations or limp wristing. (con: Grabbing the weapon around the cylinder will prevent trigger from being pulled)
Feed all types of ammunition.
Ammunition does not get seriously damaged from loading/unloading.
Leaving gun loaded for years will not cause magazine issues.
Very reliable
Autos:
Generally more rounds available.
Slimmer/flatter profile.
Faster reloads.
Lighter DA triggers or SA triggers (pending on design)
This is a tough one. I would like to hear other peoples input on the subject. This is a classic argument.
For small weapons (jframe size revolvers and Kahr/Keltec size auto in 380 or 9mm):
Revolvers offer some distinct advantages:
Contact shots.
Will not fail to load a new round during physical altercations or limp wristing. (con: Grabbing the weapon around the cylinder will prevent trigger from being pulled)
Feed all types of ammunition.
Ammunition does not get seriously damaged from loading/unloading.
Leaving gun loaded for years will not cause magazine issues.
Very reliable
Autos:
Generally more rounds available.
Slimmer/flatter profile.
Faster reloads.
Lighter DA triggers or SA triggers (pending on design)
That is kinda what my predicament is now. my local gun shop has the smith 637 on sale for $329 but if i run across a good used smith36 or 38 for the same price it would be hard to turn up.
I know that I will make a compromise either way. I do not own a revolver so becoming proficient will take practice but so did my Glock and the Ruger.
the j-frame is just over half the weight of a g26. this has a huge effect on comfort. It's also an easier to conceal shape. The 26 is basically a no go in a pocket, the j-frame is a great pocket gun.
that said, the g26 is a hell of a lot easier to shoot and holds twice as many (more potent) rounds. However, it still requires a traditional IWB or OWB holster, and is basically as big as a glock 19 when it really comes down to it.
So you have to ask yourself how important concealability/comfort is vs firepower. if your answer is on the side of firepower get a g19, if it's comfort/concealability, get a j-frame.
I agree with the previous posts. Personally I will not go with a round less effective than 9mm for any use. What ever you do, even if you go with a revolver, use the 9 as a benchmark.
If you don't already have a revolver, get one. The J-frame is a great gun.
I already have the 19 but have to carry it sob. I can appendix carry the lcp and that is what i would plan to do with the 637.
MeanStreaker
09-28-11, 20:50
If you pocket carry, the JFrame is the clear winner.
If I'm awake, I have my 642 in my pocket in either a Mika or Desantis Nemesis holster. It's usually a BUG to my regular IWB handgun when I leave the house. But for those few places where a gun on my hip is not desirable and I want deeper concealment, the 642 becomes the primary in my pocket.
Years ago I carried a proven reliable KelTec PF-9 in that role, but I grew very concerned very fast of all the lint and gunk that coated the gun. I realized I didn't want to have to clean it every two days, so I switched to the JFrame and haven't looked back.
warpedcamshaft
09-28-11, 21:44
That is kinda what my predicament is now. my local gun shop has the smith 637 on sale for $329 but if i run across a good used smith36 or 38 for the same price it would be hard to turn up.
I know that I will make a compromise either way. I do not own a revolver so becoming proficient will take practice but so did my Glock and the Ruger.
I would consider the J-frame/sub-compact auto (LC9/PF9 or smaller sized auto) to be a "*rule-1" gun or a backup gun.
*Rule 1 of a fight against an escalated criminal: have a gun.
Meaning, if you find that you constantly leave your Glock 19 or similarly sized pistol at home. A rule 1 gun is a gun on your person, instead of at home because your larger pistol was uncomfortable.
I wouldn't want to take on a determined attacker who is armed with a full sized high capacity pistol with a "Rule 1" gun in my hand unless there was no other way out or my family was about to be harmed. However, a knife armed thug would likely scurry after seeing a glimpse of a firearm. There are many situations where a couple of hits from a J-frame has saved peoples lives against unsuspecting and well armed assailants.
That is why I think it is important to recognize the differences between a Rule-1 gun and a true combat handgun. As the saying goes: "a gun on your person is better than a gun at home."
What I am trying to say is: If we look at the most likely scenarios, capacity and reload speed may take a back seat to reliability/firing flexibility (contact shots, odd hand grips, etc).
Just food for thought. Let me know what you think.
Nephrology
09-28-11, 22:55
that said, the g26 is a hell of a lot easier to shoot and holds twice as many (more potent) rounds. However, it still requires a traditional IWB or OWB holster, and is basically as big as a glock 19 when it really comes down to it.
Disagree. Everyone keeps saying this online, but when it comes down to it, there was a LOT I could not do with a G19 IWB in the summer time. The g26 allowed me to wear t-shirts with no worries at all. I am a slim guy, so YMMV, but I find the difference between the g19 and g26 to be night and day when it gets to be above 80 degrees F. Below that, the 19 is the better choice.
Nephrology
09-28-11, 23:01
that said, the g26 is a hell of a lot easier to shoot and holds twice as many (more potent) rounds. However, it still requires a traditional IWB or OWB holster, and is basically as big as a glock 19 when it really comes down to it.
Disagree. Everyone keeps saying this online, but when it comes down to it, there was a LOT I could not do with a G19 IWB in the summer time. The g26 allowed me to wear t-shirts with no worries at all. I am a slim guy, so YMMV, but I find the difference between the g19 and g26 to be night and day when it gets to be above 80 degrees F. Below that, the 19 is the better choice.
Hogsgunwild
09-29-11, 00:02
I had a S&W 340PD for my front pocket carry and / or BUG gun for six years. Great gun but I replaced it with a Rohrbaugh R9 and never looked back. 6+1 of (non +P) 9MM with a faster reload in a very accurate and reliable gun. The R9 doesn't annoy my leg like the revolver's bulging cylinder did. The Smith was a great gun. The R9 suited my needs substantially better.
My next chioce was the Kahr PM9. I like the gun and it shoots great but the tiny size difference between the R9 and the PM9 was well worth the much larger price tag of the R9 for me.
I also bought the LCP right before I purchased the R9. Once I had the R9, I never took the LCP out of the safe again. The LCP never had a hick-up, either.
Alaskapopo
09-29-11, 00:18
I’ve carried J-frames off and on for 30-odd years. They’re classic deep-cover guns, but there are better choices today. A J-frame may be the same length and height as an LCP, but it’s almost as thick as a G26, which affects concealment more than length and height. The G26 holds twice as many shots, has infinitely better sights, and is far easier to reload under stress, which is no small matter…
Okie John
The J-frame is idiot-simple and utterly proven, which are never bad things, and there are a million good holsters for it. It's never wrong as a deep-cover piece, but you could do better. If you get one, consider a shrouded-hammer model like the 442 or 642 over a 637.
At only its widest point is the J frame nearly as thick at the 26. I have the 26 and its my BUG at work and my off duty gun. My new 340 M&P is my gun for those times when the 26 is too big. The 26 does not lend itself to pocket carry while J frames do. You can put them in a pocket holster and they look just like a wallet in your pants.
In my opinion the Scandium J frames are much better than the various .380 and .32 auto pocket guns. As these guns at least the ones I have had are generally not that reliable and hit with far less authority. I won't go smaller than a J frame.
Pat
Disagree. Everyone keeps saying this online, but when it comes down to it, there was a LOT I could not do with a G19 IWB in the summer time. The g26 allowed me to wear t-shirts with no worries at all. I am a slim guy, so YMMV, but I find the difference between the g19 and g26 to be night and day when it gets to be above 80 degrees F. Below that, the 19 is the better choice.
i used to own a g26 as well as my g19. I didn't carry my g19 much at all until i got an atomic dog holster custom made. it sits the grip about a finger above my belt. works in a fitted t-shirt...
so... ok, i will admit the g26 is a little better for concealment. it's also quite a bit slower to draw, especially if you have it riding as low as my 19 holster. obviously a full grip is always welcome on a handgun, especially when bad things happen.
Honestly if money were no issue i'd have a 19, a 26 and a j-frame. I just feel like the 19 and the j-frame occupy a wider spectrum than a 19 and a 26.
I had a S&W 340PD for my front pocket carry and / or BUG gun for six years. Great gun but I replaced it with a Rohrbaugh R9 and never looked back. 6+1 of (non +P) 9MM with a faster reload in a very accurate and reliable gun. The R9 doesn't annoy my leg like the revolver's bulging cylinder did. The Smith was a great gun. The R9 suited my needs substantially better.
My next chioce was the Kahr PM9. I like the gun and it shoots great but the tiny size difference between the R9 and the PM9 was well worth the much larger price tag of the R9 for me.
I also bought the LCP right before I purchased the R9. Once I had the R9, I never took the LCP out of the safe again. The LCP never had a hick-up, either.
so those rohrbaughs run good eh?
I've always been fascinated by them, but kind of figured they were maybe too close to the bleeding edge of reliability.... what's your round count on the rohr?
Hogsgunwild
09-29-11, 13:07
so those rohrbaughs run good eh?
I've always been fascinated by them, but kind of figured they were maybe too close to the bleeding edge of reliability.... what's your round count on the rohr?
Hi Skyugo, my little R9 has been some of the absolute best gun money I have ever spent. When I bought it several years ago, I was so impressed with it's 100% reliability over (I would guess) about 900rounds or more, that I came close to buying a second gun; one for the range and one for carry. I absolutly loved shooting it as the accuracy I got out of it was so much better that I was able to do with any of the nine or ten snub nosed revolvers that I have owned over the years.
The gun is not designed to be shot a lot. When I took it to the range, I would shoot about three magazines and then swap it out with another pistol for awhile to let it cool off. I really liked shooting it so much that I figured I would just plan on wearing the gun out and having more of them. I do not shoot it so much anymore as I like to keep it clean and lubed-up so it is ready to go when I need a pocket gun. I still may pick up a second one as it is a bitch to field strip for cleaning.
It is my first pick for big projects on the house or yard where I may or may not wear a shirt or do not want to sweat all over my larger IWB carried guns. Pocket carry rarely if ever gets the gun sweaty, even in the summer here.
I shot about 240 to 300 rounds of the manufacturer recommended non+P 115 and 124 gr. Gold Dots and the rest of my ammo was all ball Georgia Arm, Winchester White Box etc. generic ball ammo.
My two spare six round magazines carry in my other front pocket in a chopped nylon Uncle Mike's double mag pouch that works for 1911 mags as well in my front pocket.
I have owned several short barreled pistols and to keep a reliable one reliable, magazine and recoil springs need to be replaced on a generous basis. When I bought the R9 (used, like new), I just ordered new mag springs and bought half a dozen extra recoil springs right off the bat.
I have been searching and found some model 10-7 2" that i think i will buy anyway if the price is right. what would be a good price?
I have been searching and found some model 10-7 2" that i think i will buy anyway if the price is right. what would be a good price?
$350-ish is the low end for a clean M-10. But it's a K-frame, and they're substantially bigger than J-frames.
Okie John
Nephrology
09-29-11, 21:18
i used to own a g26 as well as my g19. I didn't carry my g19 much at all until i got an atomic dog holster custom made. it sits the grip about a finger above my belt. works in a fitted t-shirt...
so... ok, i will admit the g26 is a little better for concealment. it's also quite a bit slower to draw, especially if you have it riding as low as my 19 holster. obviously a full grip is always welcome on a handgun, especially when bad things happen.
Honestly if money were no issue i'd have a 19, a 26 and a j-frame. I just feel like the 19 and the j-frame occupy a wider spectrum than a 19 and a 26.
I don't disagree ,the j frame is certainly easier to carry, but I had a hard time talking myself into anything but belt carry myself. I also had reservations about buying a gun that I would have to feed different ammo, train with differently, and most importantly learn to reload in a way entirely different from what I had been accustomed to.
I also already had a pair of Hackathorn sights from Ameriglo that I got as part of a trade-in, and a holster that fit the 26, and a buttload of 9mm...
it ended up being more economical in my particular shoes that day I went to the gun show, but I could see myself buying a j frame later on in my life.
j frame vs small auto breakdown in my experience:
mechanical accuracy- wheel gun better
practical accuracy shooter can get -auto better
concealability -edge to the auto
reliability edge to the revolver
quick relaod- edge to the auto
ease of maintaining/lieklihood of parts breakage-edge to revolver
so as you can see it is still a coin toss-my true "deep cover" gun is a seecamp-as you can see -auto
my next step up is a J-frame revolver.
Most people can shoot a small auto much better than a j frame. I grew up with wheel guns and can shoot a clean (300- 30x score on a b27 target) when our club does a police qual shoot with a smith 36.
I have also done the same with a glock 27.
The key to small guns working is practice. way too many people grab a j frame but only practice with full size guns, don't practice ankle or pocket draws and that won't make you effective with the snubby.
It was common in wheel gun days for detectives to show up on qual day with a 4 inch k or l frame qual then carry a snubby -they did this because the snubbies are harder to shoot well. practice with the snubby is the key
I have practiced dry and on the range well over one thousand presentations from my ankle holster with my j frame and once you get the system down it is pretty quick- nearly as quick as drawing a belt gun from true concealment.
Psalms144.1
09-30-11, 10:24
I went through this decision loop myself recently, as related to my backup gun. For the last two years or so, I've been carrying a Kahr PM9 as a daily BUG, and have frequently extolled it's superiority to the J-frame vis-a-vis sights, trigger, recoil, capacity, reload speed, etc.
A couple of months back, though, I decided that I'd better go ahead and actually do some training with my PM9, beyond the twice a year required qual. What I found was that, for ME, while the PM9 still shoots better, I simply can't find a way to hold the pistol while running it at speed without occasionally hitting the magazine release inadvertently, which, of course, makes a disappointing "click" occur when you want a "bang." The real problem is, when combining my big hands with the PM9's small grip, and the relatively "soft" magazine release button, it's very easy to release the mag JUST ENOUGH that it drops out of lock, without falling free - causing a FTF (slide forward on an empty chamber).
This never happened to me during our relatively sedate qualification course, when I have time to get a careful grip on the pistol and make sure all the fundamentals are right. When doing fast draws from concealment under time pressure, and trying to engage multiple targets while moving (read death grip on the pistol from adrenalin dump), I found the above "failure" happened with distressing regularity.
So, after years of saying the PM9 is the best thing since sliced bread, I've gone back to the 642 for a BUG (the fact that Bud's LE had no-locks for a RIDICULOUS price helped the decision). Yes, I lost capacity, and shootability, and reload speed - but, I figure if I ever have to really pull my BUG, I HAVE TO have complete reliability - regardless of how I'm grabbing the pistol.
Now, if you're looking for a deep concealment PRIMARY handgun, and you honestly can't carry a real gun (think G19 size), the single stack 9mms make a lot more sense than a J-frame, if you can find one that works for you.
WRT the G26, I've owned several, and, honestly, never kept one more than a couple of months. In a good IWB holster, there's functionally no difference in concealability between it and a G19 - which happens to be my primary carry gun. The G26 is way too large for pocket carry, and, for me, too heavy to carry comfortably on the ankle all day, so it simply fills no role in my system.
Regards,
Kevin
Alaskapopo
09-30-11, 12:22
j frame vs small auto breakdown in my experience:
mechanical accuracy- wheel gun better
practical accuracy shooter can get -auto better
concealability -edge to the auto
reliability edge to the revolver
quick relaod- edge to the auto
ease of maintaining/lieklihood of parts breakage-edge to revolver
so as you can see it is still a coin toss-my true "deep cover" gun is a seecamp-as you can see -auto
my next step up is a J-frame revolver.
Most people can shoot a small auto much better than a j frame. I grew up with wheel guns and can shoot a clean (300- 30x score on a b27 target) when our club does a police qual shoot with a smith 36.
I have also done the same with a glock 27.
The key to small guns working is practice. way too many people grab a j frame but only practice with full size guns, don't practice ankle or pocket draws and that won't make you effective with the snubby.
It was common in wheel gun days for detectives to show up on qual day with a 4 inch k or l frame qual then carry a snubby -they did this because the snubbies are harder to shoot well. practice with the snubby is the key
I have practiced dry and on the range well over one thousand presentations from my ankle holster with my j frame and once you get the system down it is pretty quick- nearly as quick as drawing a belt gun from true concealment.
You forgot a huge issue when it comes to pocket guns. Ballisitics. The 38 and 357 are much better than the .380 and .32 auto.
pat
Thanks Kevin - I think you hit on a big factor with small autos that many overlook. That comfort/confidence in using a J-frame has always been my impression with them, as well. I have discussed this time and again with others and it seems to fall on deaf ears. Although, I used to train a lot with a 442, others assume their small auto bug will handle the same under stress as the duty weapon - can't imagine a greater miscalculation. Yet, most find it difficult enough to get time in on the main gun. My choice has always been a j-frame for that reason. I personally don't like the way the single stack short grip frames feel and I never could develop a memory for that stress grab. Just not for me.
I would consider the J-frame/sub-compact auto (LC9/PF9 or smaller sized auto) to be a "*rule-1" gun or a backup gun.
*Rule 1 of a fight against an escalated criminal: have a gun.
Meaning, if you find that you constantly leave your Glock 19 or similarly sized pistol at home. A rule 1 gun is a gun on your person, instead of at home because your larger pistol was uncomfortable.
I wouldn't want to take on a determined attacker who is armed with a full sized high capacity pistol with a "Rule 1" gun in my hand unless there was no other way out or my family was about to be harmed. However, a knife armed thug would likely scurry after seeing a glimpse of a firearm. There are many situations where a couple of hits from a J-frame has saved peoples lives against unsuspecting and well armed assailants.
That is why I think it is important to recognize the differences between a Rule-1 gun and a true combat handgun. As the saying goes: "a gun on your person is better than a gun at home."
What I am trying to say is: If we look at the most likely scenarios, capacity and reload speed may take a back seat to reliability/firing flexibility (contact shots, odd hand grips, etc).
Just food for thought. Let me know what you think.
This x 1000. I have a little SP101 that can be clipped on to any pair of shorts here in TX IWB or pocket carry. When its 110 degrees a larger auto is tough to conceal. Yes the slim single stack high caps would be better--but they require "garb". those little revolvers are grab and go. Mine is even a bit larger than nessecary as I wanted to shoot .357 and still have wrists. An Airlite with 38+p would be even more portable.
I'm not usually an ammo snob either but no one (NO ONE!) recommends 380/9mm Mak. 38+p is where it starts.
Nothing against the little 9mm semi-autos either. If you find a good one that works, make it your carry piece.
I recently replaced my SW 642 with a Walther PPS 9mm as my always gun. The PPS is thinner than the Jframe and only slight taller. You could probably pocket carry it, but I am carrying it IWB, where it's thinness makes it much easier to conceal in the summer in shorts and tshirt versus my G19 which needs a button up shirt or sweatshirt to help conceal. The PPS is much easier to shoot due to trigger feeling very close to a stock Glock trigger. It also carries more rounds and I can reload it much faster than a revolver. The only thing stopping it from being perfect is the magazine release being the HK/Walther lever style instead of the more familiar push button on my Glock. Not too concerned about that becoming an issue (due to how different each gun feels in my hands due to thickness of the grips), but I am looking for it in drills.
I tried my grandfathers 26 and it felt about the same as my 19. It was still difficult to conceal. I was thinking a 36 in was more narrow than the glock.
Also several have mentioned ballisitics. when the .380 is compared to .38 the .38 wins. But how does it perform when compared to a 9?
I also like the exposed hammer. I just think it is the way a revolver should look but i will have it cut down.
I tried my grandfathers 26 and it felt about the same as my 19. It was still difficult to conceal. I was thinking a 36 in was more narrow than the glock.
Also several have mentioned ballisitics. when the .380 is compared to .38 the .38 wins. But how does it perform when compared to a 9?
I also like the exposed hammer. I just think it is the way a revolver should look but i will have it cut down.
I've been carrying J frames forever, and if you're going to buy one, imho, get a Scandium or alloy model. On an ankle, or in the pocket of shorts, it makes a world of difference. The steel gun will feel like a brick in comparison.
And just cutting off the hammer spur doesn't allow for one of the best features of the concealed hammer models. The ability to fire all 5 shots, from inside a pocket.
The_War_Wagon
10-01-11, 08:24
Well... I'm with you fellers!
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/COMPACT.jpg
Kimber Ultra Covert II for winter (works great in a coat pocket, & loaded with Cor-Bon flying ashtrays) - Taurus 605 (I normally keep it stoked with 125gr. .38 +P JHP's for controllability) .357 for sumer carry in a pair of shorts. :cool:
just curious but how does your 605 perform. How many rounds. I only ask b/c Taurus has some spotty QC.
I couldn't get my LCP to function 100%. So I fixed it with a 442.
It pocket carries just as well, has two less rounds than the LCP, but I have 5 for sure instead of 6 maybe.
This thread is all over the place. On the surface, the question is small auto vs small revolver. But, the comparison given is a small .380 VS a small 38. Apples and oranges to me.
9 mm or 38 is as small as I care to go, so the LC9 is a more legitimate comparison IMO. For pocket carry, a J frame works well. A Glock 26 or 27 does not. I own an LC9 but have not shot it yet. Once I prove it is reliable, it will be a pocket gun that will get carried when I don't want to carry on the belt.
For belt carry, it is my Glock 23, which I have no trouble concealing OWB in a Phantom holster. I live in Miami and nobody has more summer weather than we do.
The_War_Wagon
10-01-11, 14:44
just curious but how does your 605 perform. How many rounds. I only ask b/c Taurus has some spotty QC.
I JUST picked that up a couple weeks ago - I had a Titanium 605 before that I sold because my wife needed dental work a couple years ago; been kicking myself over THAT ever since. :(
Only put a box through it so far at the indoor range. Accuracy is acceptable, cylinder locks up fine - no issues so far.
This is my second 605, and I've owned a couple of Model 85's as well. Seeng as how they took over the S&W tooling on these J-frames, I've found they're pretty solid little pieces. I owned a PT-101 about 20 years ago that was quite smooth, but that's my only semi-auto experience with Taurus. I'm no fanboy, but either I've been REALLY lucky to date, or really blessed.
Seeng as how they took over the S&W tooling on these J-frames, I've found they're pretty solid little pieces.
What "tooling" did Taurus take over from Smith and Wesson?
Alaskapopo
10-01-11, 15:17
I JUST picked that up a couple weeks ago - I had a Titanium 605 before that I sold because my wife needed dental work a couple years ago; been kicking myself over THAT ever since. :(
Only put a box through it so far at the indoor range. Accuracy is acceptable, cylinder locks up fine - no issues so far.
This is my second 605, and I've owned a couple of Model 85's as well. Seeng as how they took over the S&W tooling on these J-frames, I've found they're pretty solid little pieces. I owned a PT-101 about 20 years ago that was quite smooth, but that's my only semi-auto experience with Taurus. I'm no fanboy, but either I've been REALLY lucky to date, or really blessed.
Wrong Taurus took over tooling from Beretta to make their 92 series of auto loaders way back when. They got nothing from Smith and Wesson.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-11, 20:56
The J-frame is ridiculously better than the G26 for pocket carry. The autoloader than I have ever considered a real competitor is the Kahr Pm-9. But I finally sold off my Kahr and just carry my 442 with laser grips.
I know several guys who have gone back to the J frame after trying small pistols, including the LCPs and the Kahr PM9.
A real issue for some was that when the gun was carried in a pocket and then deployed as it had been carried for several weeks they would get a first round stoppage. Tap-Roll/Rack/Bang would fix the problme, but it was a consistent issue.
I have found that the J frames are far easier to get a shooting grip on when you are trying to draw from the pocket at speed.
The J frames also make, IMHO, the best "get off me gun" in that they don't choke if you have a hard muzzle contact, and there is no slide to foul when clothing, arms and hands may be in the way.
I know several guys who have gone back to the J frame after trying small pistols, including the LCPs and the Kahr PM9.
A real issue for some was that when the gun was carried in a pocket and then deployed as it had been carried for several weeks they would get a first round stoppage. Tap-Roll/Rack/Bang would fix the problme, but it was a consistent issue.
I have found that the J frames are far easier to get a shooting grip on when you are trying to draw from the pocket at speed.
The J frames also make, IMHO, the best "get off me gun" in that they don't choke if you have a hard muzzle contact, and there is no slide to foul when clothing, arms and hands may be in the way. AMEN!
I know several guys who have gone back to the J frame after trying small pistols, including the LCPs and the Kahr PM9.
A real issue for some was that when the gun was carried in a pocket and then deployed as it had been carried for several weeks they would get a first round stoppage. Tap-Roll/Rack/Bang would fix the problme, but it was a consistent issue.
I have found that the J frames are far easier to get a shooting grip on when you are trying to draw from the pocket at speed.
The J frames also make, IMHO, the best "get off me gun" in that they don't choke if you have a hard muzzle contact, and there is no slide to foul when clothing, arms and hands may be in the way.
Best thing about this site is the amount of real life experience opinions that are expressed here.
There is nothing nicer than a small frame revolver. A small frame frvolver is handy to have with you and are you trying to tell me guys that a 38 sp is not an effective round? How many of you guys been in a gun fight lately that you needed the more rounds of a semi auto?
Alaskapopo
11-03-11, 18:01
There is nothing nicer than a small frame revolver. A small frame frvolver is handy to have with you and are you trying to tell me guys that a 38 sp is not an effective round? How many of you guys been in a gun fight lately that you needed the more rounds of a semi auto?
It is not hard to list gun fights where the greater capacity and faster reloads of a semi auto made the difference.
Pat
It is not hard to list gun fights where the greater capacity and faster reloads of a semi auto made the difference.
Pat
So start listing...
Alaskapopo
11-03-11, 19:41
So start listing...
The 1986 Miami shoot out (FBI vs Platt Maddox) for starters. Two agents were killed while trying to reloading their empty revolvers. Their are hundreds of examples, I will leave it to you to find the rest. Your a big boy you should be able to find at least a few on your own with a little bit of google foo.
Pat
So start listing...
Go back and read Mas Ayoob's column in American Handgunner over the last two years. He has documented several recent shootings that involved lots of rounds or a reload to resolve the situation in favor of the good guy.
Go back and read Mas Ayoob's column in American Handgunner over the last two years. He has documented several recent shootings that involved lots of rounds or a reload to resolve the situation in favor of the good guy.
IMHO none of those would have been handled by a pocket pistol, be it a revolver or an auto.
Seriously, 7 rounds of .380 isn't a huge capacity/capability difference between 5 rounds of .38special
This is why we should carry real guns as often as we can. Pocket guns are for BUGs, or when we have to dress in sissy clothes and go to stuff like weddings and such.
Alaskapopo
11-04-11, 00:30
IMHO none of those would have been handled by a pocket pistol, be it a revolver or an auto.
Seriously, 7 rounds of .380 isn't a huge capacity/capability difference between 5 rounds of .38special
This is why we should carry real guns as often as we can. Pocket guns are for BUGs, or when we have to dress in sissy clothes and go to stuff like weddings and such.
I agree if you are forced to carry a pocket gun due to certain circumstances a 5 shot .38 or 357 beats a .380 in my opinion. But I would much rather carry my Glock 26 on my belt given the choice.
Pat
The 1986 Miami shoot out (FBI vs Platt Maddox) for starters. Two agents were killed while trying to reloading their empty revolvers.
No. The two agents who were killed were armed with S&W 459 9mm semi-autos. It was six rounds from a .357 Mag revolver that finished the fight.
Their are hundreds of examples, I will leave it to you to find the rest. Your a big boy you should be able to find at least a few on your own with a little bit of google foo.
You say hundreds, I ask for examples, and your reply is to find them on my own? Given that the one you provided was factually inaccurate, would you care to sharpen your own "Google-fu" and try again?
Go back and read Mas Ayoob's column in American Handgunner over the last two years. He has documented several recent shootings that involved lots of rounds or a reload to resolve the situation in favor of the good guy.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to American Handgunner and so, don't have two years worth of magazines to go back through.
The 1986 Miami shoot out (FBI vs Platt Maddox) for starters. Two agents were killed while trying to reloading their empty revolvers. Their are hundreds of examples, I will leave it to you to find the rest. Your a big boy you should be able to find at least a few on your own with a little bit of google foo.
Pat
Uhhhhh..............no.......
The two Agent's killed, Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove, (along with a third Agent who wasn't killed, were SWAT trained, and armed with S&W Model 459 high capacity 9mm's with extra magazines. Platt and Matix were finally killed by a wounded Agent armed with a 6 shot revolver.
IMHO none of those would have been handled by a pocket pistol, be it a revolver or an auto.
Seriously, 7 rounds of .380 isn't a huge capacity/capability difference between 5 rounds of .38special
This is why we should carry real guns as often as we can. Pocket guns are for BUGs, or when we have to dress in sissy clothes and go to stuff like weddings and such.
Exactly.
Just as the Miami shootout wasn't best handled by service handguns.
I often choose to carry a J frame .38 alone. I do it with the knowledge it's not the best gun to get in a gunfight with. I should know, I've been in a gunfight with one.
Go back and read Mas Ayoob's column in American Handgunner over the last two years. He has documented several recent shootings that involved lots of rounds or a reload to resolve the situation in favor of the good guy.
Well, I don't know if documented is the right word in that example, but nonetheless, of course there have been shootings where high capacity guns were an asset.
But some of those shootings involved lots of misses as well. Just sayin'....
In a perfect world, I'd always rather have more bullets. But in a perfect world, you'd also always wear body armor, carry multiple extra mags, handcuffs, (what do you do when you take a guy down at gunpoint, and there's no one else around, or on the way...........been there....), and have an M4 under your seat of your car. Some guys do. I can't fault them, but I make other choices.
As I've said before, in the circles I've worked and traveled in, there's been a number of times where in a social group of stone cold killer tactical wizards, I was the only guy in the room with a gun on my person, (even if it was a lowly 5 shot J ). Their highly customized (and heavy) 1911's, were outside, guarding their cars. Several times in my police career, having a gun off duty in a place where a lot of guys wouldn't bother, turned out to be a very good thing.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to American Handgunner and so, don't have two years worth of magazines to go back through.
I see. Here is a link to one officer's interview - Officer Jared Reston of Jacksonville, Florida: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg5SkuT0 Officer Jared was hit 6 times with a .45 and as quoted in Mas's interview "Jared Reston fired every one of his 14 shots and scored every one of his seven hits one-hand-only from supine, on his side, or half-way-up-off-the-ground positions."
American Handgunner is on-line. The last 16 issues are available here for free: http://www.americanhandgunner.com/digital-editions/ Happy reading.:D
Alaskapopo
11-04-11, 16:54
No. The two agents who were killed were armed with S&W 459 9mm semi-autos. It was six rounds from a .357 Mag revolver that finished the fight.
You say hundreds, I ask for examples, and your reply is to find them on my own? Given that the one you provided was factually inaccurate, would you care to sharpen your own "Google-fu" and try again?
Sorry, I don't subscribe to American Handgunner and so, don't have two years worth of magazines to go back through.
Neither do I. But if you think there are no gun fights in which capacity played a role you are seriously mistaken.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Alaskapopo
11-04-11, 17:02
Uhhhhh..............no.......
The two Agent's killed, Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove, (along with a third Agent who wasn't killed, were SWAT trained, and armed with S&W Model 459 high capacity 9mm's with extra magazines. Platt and Matix were finally killed by a wounded Agent armed with a 6 shot revolver.
I must appologize it appears my memory on this incident was not correct. Here is a report of the actual shooting. Regardless having high capacity autos has been a life saver in many actual shootings. In a perfect world we would not need a gun at all but its not a perfect world.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Alaskapopo
11-04-11, 17:10
Well, I don't know if documented is the right word in that example, but nonetheless, of course there have been shootings where high capacity guns were an asset.
But some of those shootings involved lots of misses as well. Just sayin'....
In a perfect world, I'd always rather have more bullets. But in a perfect world, you'd also always wear body armor, carry multiple extra mags, handcuffs, (what do you do when you take a guy down at gunpoint, and there's no one else around, or on the way...........been there....), and have an M4 under your seat of your car. Some guys do. I can't fault them, but I make other choices.
As I've said before, in the circles I've worked and traveled in, there's been a number of times where in a social group of stone cold killer tactical wizards, I was the only guy in the room with a gun on my person, (even if it was a lowly 5 shot J ). Their highly customized (and heavy) 1911's, were outside, guarding their cars. Several times in my police career, having a gun off duty in a place where a lot of guys wouldn't bother, turned out to be a very good thing.
Thank you for admitting the obvious. I do agree a Jframe on your person beats a AR15 in the trunk. However I have found it easy to carry a full size 1911 off duty most of my career. Only recently have I switched to Glock 17 on duty and started carrying my Glock 26 bug off duty. I am always armed. The only time I carry my j frame is while jogging as its lighter weight is easier on my back. J frames are also nice for those times when carrying a gun is very difficult. Such as at weddings or church. Its hard to conceal a belt holster while wearing a tux. My point is carry as much gun as you can. Many people are simply lazy and carry a pocket gun when they could easily carry a small to mid sized 9mm or larger pistol with relative ease.
Pat
Thank you for admitting the obvious. I do agree a Jframe on your person beats a AR15 in the trunk. However I have found it easy to carry a full size 1911 off duty most of my career. Only recently have I switched to Glock 17 on duty and started carrying my Glock 26 bug off duty. I am always armed. The only time I carry my j frame is while jogging as its lighter weight is easier on my back. J frames are also nice for those times when carrying a gun is very difficult. Such as at weddings or church. Its hard to conceal a belt holster while wearing a tux. My point is carry as much gun as you can. Many people are simply lazy and carry a pocket gun when they could easily carry a small to mid sized 9mm or larger pistol with relative ease.
Pat
While my position may be obvious, what may not be obvious, is how many guys frequently violate rule one, (have a gun), while extolling the virtues of their combat tactical pistols, and dismissing a J frame as "not a real gun".
I have no doubt you mean what you say and go well heeled all the the time. I respect that.
I must appologize it appears my memory on this incident was not correct. Here is a report of the actual shooting. Regardless having high capacity autos has been a life saver in many actual shootings. In a perfect world we would not need a gun at all but its not a perfect world.
Nope. And wearing a helmet in your private vehicle would be more likely to save your life, than would the difference between carrying a high cap pistol or J frame off duty.
But I'm going into the big city for dinner tonight. My Glock 19 will be in my waistband holster, and my J frame will be on my ankle. I'm a little lazy sometimes, but I'm not completely stupid...;)
Well, I don't know if documented is the right word in that example, but nonetheless, of course there have been shootings where high capacity guns were an asset.
But some of those shootings involved lots of misses as well. Just sayin'....
In a perfect world, I'd always rather have more bullets. But in a perfect world, you'd also always wear body armor, carry multiple extra mags, handcuffs, (what do you do when you take a guy down at gunpoint, and there's no one else around, or on the way...........been there....), and have an M4 under your seat of your car. Some guys do. I can't fault them, but I make other choices.
As I've said before, in the circles I've worked and traveled in, there's been a number of times where in a social group of stone cold killer tactical wizards, I was the only guy in the room with a gun on my person, (even if it was a lowly 5 shot J ). Their highly customized (and heavy) 1911's, were outside, guarding their cars. Several times in my police career, having a gun off duty in a place where a lot of guys wouldn't bother, turned out to be a very good thing.
that was my justification for getting a j-frame... i kept finding myself unarmed.. new job where i was doing a lot of piping and conduit work so carrying a glock IWB was just not an option... the j-frame in a pocket could make all the difference.
Alaskapopo
11-04-11, 21:18
While my position may be obvious, what may not be obvious, is how many guys frequently violate rule one, (have a gun), while extolling the virtues of their combat tactical pistols, and dismissing a J frame as "not a real gun".
I have no doubt you mean what you say and go well heeled all the the time. I respect that.
I do have to admit its easier for me to go armed all the time in Alaska than say someone in Florida. In the winter its obviously easy to carry a large gun concealed and in the summer its not that hard because it does not get that hot here. The upper 70's is as hot as it gets in my town. Plus its a fishing town so wearing an IDPA vest fits right in with the fisherman coming back off their charters.
I do agree there are many that argue for their favorate pistol rather it be a 10mm 1911, high cap Glock etc while going unarmed, which in my opinion is lunacy. But then again I am one of three cops out of 10 that carries off duty at my department. Three of us carry BUGs on duty.
I do have to apologize for getting my facts wrong on the 1986 shooting. That is what I get for repeating what I have been told without going over it myself. Bad on me.
Stay safe down there.
Pat
I do agree there are many that argue for their favorate pistol rather it be a 10mm 1911, high cap Glock etc while going unarmed, which in my opinion is lunacy. But then again I am one of three cops out of 10 that carries off duty at my department. Three of us carry BUGs on duty.
Not carrying a backup is almost as looney as not carrying off duty. A lot of the guys on my department didn't carry backups either, despite the fact we had several shootings where a backup gun was used to save the cop's life, and everybody had the same in service training documenting it.
Alaskapopo
11-05-11, 03:34
Not carrying a backup is almost as looney as not carrying off duty. A lot of the guys on my department didn't carry backups either, despite the fact we had several shootings where a backup gun was used to save the cop's life, and everybody had the same in service training documenting it.
I know. Its actually better here than at my last department where out of 18 officers only myself and one other person carried a BUG. Complacency kills.
Pat
Back in the revolver days here I was the first guy on my department, 300 sworn, to ask for permission to carry a BUG.
You wouldn't believe how much negative peer pressure bullshit I had to put up with for carrying two guns.
I then went completely overboard and had THREE speedloaders on my belt. Crazy, I know.
Anyway, having had to carry a 4" .357mag off duty for awhile, having the option of a Glock now makes me feel spoiled. My G19 is the same size envelope and weight as my old Detective Special, and has more ammo on board than many guys I knew had as a basic load-out while on duty.
I used to be all for Small Semi Auto's ...
I've owned (3) P238's, (1) PM9, and (1) P380 ...
I will soon be carrying an S&W 340 ...
IMO, small semi auto's are still in their infancy. The amount of problems I've had, and seen other have, is incredible.
I'd rather trust my life to a pocketable wheel gun, than any pocketable semi auto in .380/9 at this point in time.
I have no doubt that advances in the small semi realm will evolve over the next few years, so I may rethink this in a couple of years. For now - Small J Frames are where its at :)
Back in the revolver days here I was the first guy on my department, 300 sworn, to ask for permission to carry a BUG.
You wouldn't believe how much negative peer pressure bullshit I had to put up with for carrying two guns.
I then went completely overboard and had THREE speedloaders on my belt. Crazy, I know.
Not the first time one of your posts brought back some memories for me. I shot IPSC and PPC, carried a hideout, always carried off duty, and used four speedloaders on duty, when many of the guys I worked with were still using dump pouches, didn't own an off duty gun, and shot only when they had to at qualifications. They used to call me "paranoid", and I'd say, "I used to be, until I got all these guns". (I stole that line from an old cop I worked with, long before Clint was being quoted for a version of it).
anachronism
11-06-11, 21:09
I chose a J frame because I pocket-carry. Mines a 649, chosen because I could drop it in a jacket pocket, and even shoot it repeatedly from there if necessary. They that with a Glock 26!
Not the first time one of your posts brought back some memories for me. I shot IPSC and PPC, carried a hideout, always carried off duty, and used four speedloaders on duty, when many of the guys I worked with were still using dump pouches, didn't own an off duty gun, and shot only when they had to at qualifications. They used to call me "paranoid", and I'd say, "I used to be, until I got all these guns". (I stole that line from an old cop I worked with, long before Clint was being quoted for a version of it).
We still issued dump boxes until like 1990 or so. I said no thanks and bought my own speedloaders and pouches.
We also issued the button on the side style Jordan holster, better known as the "suicide holster" by most guys.
We still issued dump boxes until like 1990 or so. I said no thanks and bought my own speedloaders and pouches.
Holy crap, I was talking about the mid 70's. By 1990 my department had been approving and issuing autos for a couple years.
We also issued the button on the side style Jordan holster, better known as the "suicide holster" by most guys.
My department didn't issue holsters. Some guys bought 20 dollar Hecho in Mexico crap, and some of us spent 80-90 bucks in 1975 dollars for a Hoyt. With what the job paid then, that would be like the new guys spending $300-$350 on a holster today. Yet I hear some of them whine about having to spend $75 on one. Some things never change.
Holy crap, I was talking about the mid 70's. By 1990 my department had been approving and issuing autos for a couple years.
My department didn't issue holsters. Some guys bought 20 dollar Hecho in Mexico crap, and some of us spent 80-90 bucks in 1975 dollars for a Hoyt. With what the job paid then, that would be like the new guys spending $300-$350 on a holster today. Yet I hear some of them whine about having to spend $75 on one. Some things never change.
We were a bit on the slow side when it came to wheelguns, but one of the first agencies in our area to get semi-autos.
I had a 9mm in my holster (paid for myself, and it cost A LOT, as you have noted) before the guys I knew in KCMO were able to even get JHPs for their .38s, they carried SWCs at the time.
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