Back up light for your kit???

[toddackerman]

I was playing around in the "Man Cave" tonight with my Eagle M4 Chest Rig doing reload drills, and transition drills to the secondary.

Something that has plagued me since getting rid of my SA 1911 with a SF X200 on it is that when you transition from your rifle to the pistol...you'd better have another light available to you. Without going into details, I don't want another pistol mounted light. The tactical options are too limited IMO and I don't like the fact that the BG just needs to shoot at your pistol light and he hits you.

So...I am thinking about a new hand held light like the SF M3. It seems to fit the bill, and can be used as a SF technique weapon light. I also like that it is a 3 cell light like my M962 was (before I switched to a Scout Light from Grant).

This will be used for indoor and outdoor applications, and I want to mount it in a MOLLE holster on my M4 Chest Rig.

This being said...I really need a lot of advice on what to consider and most impotantly...WHY?

Thanks in advance for your replies!

Tack

[Jay Cunningham]

The tactical options are too limited IMO and I don't like the fact that the BG just needs to shoot at your pistol light and he hits you.

You need to MOVE after you illuminate.

[subzero]

It's hard to say no to the Surefire G2. Economical and reliable. You could easily buy two or three with the money you'd spend on a light with a higher CDI factor. They're so cheap, one could easily rationalize just getting a new G2 instead of replacing bulbs.

That having been said, I really like Grant's WG series lights that have the Executive bodies but take a standard incandescent bulb. I get the lumens of a G2 with a slimmer body that makes it easier (for me) to attempt the Wilson-Rogers technique. And the slim body makes it easier to slide into extra space wherever you happen to find it on you rig instead of making space for it, like a 9P or M3.

Failing that, a SF Aviator has a really cool trick in that it has a dual stage light. The geek in me (the one that had to paste targets at night) likes that a lot. And the pocket clip means you can clip it to an unused bit of MOLLE webbing for instant access.

Those are the ones I'm considering to back up the WG lights on my rifles and the G2s I have in my kit. YMMV.

[toddackerman]

You need to MOVE after you illuminate.

Agreed, but there is a reason that experts like Ken Good use a hand held with their pistols to facilitate the "Various" methods of light deployment. I.e. the Harries method, FBI and Modified FBI techniques, Neck Technique etc.

For example...There is no way you can "Move Effectively" in a low (squat) position while "Slicing the Pie" to negotiate a corner with a pistol mounted light and not take your eyes off the sight plane. Unless you can "Duck Walk" very quickly, but then you wouldn't want to to move in very fast after "Illuminating" without "Slicing" all of the pie, and probably falling over.

At least with a hand held you can minimize over exposing yourself to incoming fire by keeping the light away from your body while negotiating corners. Just one of many applications where a hand held is superior, and taught by Mr. Good in his excellent videos. I hope to someday train with him.

To me, the greatest advantage of a pistol mounted light is in a "Stand and Defend" mode while hunkering down in your bedroom behind cover while calling 911.

Back on track...what Hand Held light do you guys recommend?

[LSP972]

The tactical options are too limited IMO and I don't like the fact that the BG just needs to shoot at your pistol light and he hits you.


Well, the same could be said for your RIFLE light; yes?

Not sure what the "tactical limitations" of a pistol mounted light are, but we'll skip that.

To answer your question, is this a dedicated fighting light, with all other tasks secondary?

If so, I'd go with a 123-powered hot wire (incandescent); hard to go wrong with a 6P or 9P. I know LEDs are "the schitz", but there are some environments where they just don't cut it; one being outside with substantial ambient side light (streetlights, etc.), outside with heavy mist/fog, and so on. Some folks, like Don McLeish and SureFire, have solved the "throw" problem via advanced reflector theory. But most "tactical" LED lights will let you down under certain circumstances. The hot wire works in all conditions; just for not as long...;)

Me, I'd have one of these at the ready, and a small LED like an Inova X-5 or similar, with a red filter, for admin stuff.

And I'd avoid a rechargeable like the plague, for obvious reasons. Spare 123As can be tucked anywhere. That spare NiMH for your M3, Stinger, whatever... when was the last time it was charged??? You get the picture.

.

[Don Robison]

Just as a matter of practice I always(24/7/365) have a light source on my person. I currently use an E2D. As has been pointed out move after illuminating and you have the same tactical issues whether it's on your pistol of long gun. Practice using both hand held and weapon lights both have their uses and purpose.


Just my $.02 YMMV

[Jay Cunningham]

I learned from my recent experience that I want a light on my long gun, on my pistol, and a hand held. The G2 Nitrolon is the best bang for the buck for the hand held and the long gun. One of the SF X series lights will be GTG for the pistola.

Also, you specifically referred to transitioning. There is a method of transitioning where you use the light on your long gun to illuminate the threat while you engage it one-handed with the pistol.

[PALADIN-hgwt]

xxxxx

[John_Wayne777]

Something that has plagued me since getting rid of my SA 1911 with a SF X200 on it is that when you transition from your rifle to the pistol...you'd better have another light available to you.


This can be accomplished via three methods:

1. Use a light mounted on the pistol.
2. Simultaneously draw a hand-held light with the pistol.
3. Use the white light mounted on the rifle.

At the low light course this weekend Larry Vickers taught a drill I refer to as the click, kick, bang drill.

Click: Your rifle goes click instead of bang.

Kick: Pull your support arm through your sling (to essentially unsling the rifle) and kick the weapon into your support side tucking the stock under your arm and using your support side hand to activate the white light.

Bang: While kicking the rifle with your support hand, your strong hand should be drawing your pistol.

With a single-point sling you can just switch without unslinging. I've also been playing with it and if you use the quick adjust feature of the Vickers 2 point sling you can kick the weapon to the support side without unslinging.



Without going into details, I don't want another pistol mounted light. The tactical options are too limited IMO and I don't like the fact that the BG just needs to shoot at your pistol light and he hits you.


Thus the application of the LIE method:

Locate -- brief flash to locate a potential threat
MOVE
Identify -- Longer burst of light to identify whether or not there is a threat to engage
MOVE
Engage -- If you determine there's a threat, shoot the bastard
MOVE

Done at speed that continual movement will keep you inside the ODA loop of the bad guy.

As far as the light you should get, nitrolon lights are a deal. Personally I prefer the "combat" lights because they are best suited for the Rogers technique, which is my preferred "inside" light technique.

[NCPatrolAR]

Ultimately you want to have alight on your pistol in additon to a handheld light. The weaponlight allows you to maintain a more natural grip on the pistol and you'll enjoy the benefits that having two hands on the gun provide. The handheld light can be useful for putting light into tight places at odd angles. One shouldnt be forsaken one for the other. At the very least, with a pistol and handheld light; you always have a backup light in case the other fails.


Whwn it comes to specific lights, I'm impressed with the G2LED. If you like to do the Rogers/Surefire method; get the G2ZLED. This will give you 80 lumens of output in a non-bulky package. It might just be me; but carrying a 9volt light system on something other than a longgun is too bulky. For a pistol mounted light the Surefire X series isnt bad; but I'm a big fan of the Streamlight TLR-1 right now.

[John_Wayne777]

Ultimately you want to have alight on your pistol in additon to a handheld light.


I have to heartily second that suggestion if for no other reason than the light mounted on the handgun will always be there. Even if you drop a handheld light and your carbine light pukes on you there's still one mounted on your weapon that will likely still be working.

[NCPatrolAR]

I have to heartily second that suggestion if for no other reason than the light mounted on the handgun will always be there. Even if you drop a handheld light and your carbine light pukes on you there's still one mounted on your weapon that will likely still be working.

Another aspect to look at is the running of the light with an injured limb. Having the mounted light givens you the option of providing illumination even with a single functioning arm.

[rob_s]

I've thought of adding an open-top light carrier to the strong side of my chest rig (there I go, cluttering it up again!) such that it could, in theory, be drawn at the same time as the pistol when performing a transition.

Anyone know of a kydex open-top that attaches to molle and holds the light bezel-down? I'd like to spring for one to give it a try.

re: light on the handgun, for me it's unlikely to happen. I work everything I do with the carbine around the assumption that I'm either CCW with the handgun in a VMII or that I have no handgun at all. This means no drop holsters, no mounted lights, etc. That's what fits MY situation, YMMV.

[NCPatrolAR]

Anyone know of a kydex open-top that attaches to molle and holds the light bezel-down? I'd like to spring for one to give it a try.

YOu could try modding one of the Surefire holsters to do this. I've found thier holsters ot be the best out there for retaining lights.


re: light on the handgun, for me it's unlikely to happen. I work everything I do with the carbine around the assumption that I'm either CCW with the handgun in a VMII or that I have no handgun at all. This means no drop holsters, no mounted lights, etc. That's what fits MY situation, YMMV.

I'd switch holsters. ;) I'm now running one of the Raven holsters for a full size M&P with attached TLR-1 and it is one of the most comfortable holsters I've worn.

[rob_s]

I'd switch holsters. ;) I'm now running one of the Raven holsters for a full size M&P with attached TLR-1 and it is one of the most comfortable holsters I've worn.
That's not going to happen anytime soon. A 5" 1911 in a VMII is about the only holster I can wear all day long. I'm not messing with perfection. :D

[rob_s]

hmm, just found this
Surefire light holder (http://blade-tech.com/Light-Pouch-Vertical-w-Belt-Clip-pr-965.html)
http://www.blade-tech.com/product_images/d_212.jpg


molle-lock straps (http://blade-tech.com/Molle-Lok-Small-Set-of-2-pr-1027.html)
http://www.blade-tech.com/product_images/d_326.jpg

[toddackerman]

But Rob,

The MOLLE straps on your Chest Rig run horizontal, as does the belt clip on this light holder. You'd have to mount the light at a 90 degree angle to get this to work wouldn't you?

Do you feel you need a "Speed Holster" for you application, or would a simple MOLLE Light pouch with a flap work on your M4 Chest Rig?. I looked at Eagle for you in the MOLLE Pouch section and couldn't find one there.

[rob_s]

But Rob,

The MOLLE straps on your Chest Rig run horizontal, as does the belt clip on this light holder. You'd have to mount the light at a 90 degree angle to get this to work wouldn't you?

Do you feel you need a "Speed Holster" for you application, or would a simple MOLLE Light pouch with a flap work on your M4 Chest Rig?. I looked at Eagle for you in the MOLLE Pouch section and couldn't find one there.

The molle straps from Blade-Tech replace that clip and should be able to be run vertical. I emailed them for clarification.

[toddackerman]

The molle straps from Blade-Tech replace that clip and should be able to be run vertical. I emailed them for clarification.

Roger that.

I have loved Blade Tech products for over 15 years. Truly a great and innovative company to deal with.

[RD62]

Rob,

I was gonna suggest the new Blade-tech Molle strips when I read your post, but it looks like you already found them. I'd like to know how they work out for you, casue I may be interested in doing similar.

Todd,

I have a Surefire L2 , a dual ouput LED with about 15lumens in low and 100lumens in high. I got it when I was with the Sheriff's Dept to use for building clearing and vehicle searches. At 15lumens I found it good for looking through cars and searching and has a rated 18hour battery life, and then just depress the button harder and it goes to the 100lumen for really lighting up something or someone with a rated runtime of an hour. It's realitively thin and light and I find at high it throws pretty well. I got mine from Brightflashlights over on TOS for about $125 and had very fast delivery. You may want to check it out for a handheld. I also ran/run a G2 for back-up (as two is one and one is none and all) with either a P61 lamp or converted to 9V and a P90 or P91 lamp.

Good luck in your search!

-RD62

[rob_s]

Got the response from Blade-Tech

Yes it will just a matter of screwing it on.



Best regards,
Howard Schultz
R&D Product Development
Design Engineer
Blade-Tech Inds.
2506 104th Street Court So.
Lakewood Wa. 98499
Ph# 253-581-4347 Ext. 105
PH# 877-331-5793
Fax# 253-589-0282

E-mail
www.Blade-Tech.com



-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 8:56 AM
To: Bobby McGee
Subject: Blade-Tech Industries: User filled in Contact Us form!


You have received this notification from Blade-Tech Industries because
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First Name: Rob


Subject: Molle Surefire carrier
Message:
I'm looking for a way to attach a kydex open-top carrier for a Surefire
light to my Molle chest rig, and was wondering if your molle-lock straps
are compatible with your Surefire light holder.

[GLOCKMASTER]

Nice find Rob. I'm going to have to order a couple of these.

[toddackerman]

Got the response from Blade-Tech

Let us know how this works out Rob. I may be interested as well.

Todd