View Full Version : What do you *wish* your CCW class would've taught you?
Stonebridge
09-28-11, 17:58
Just what the title says. Granted, most of you merely needed a CCW class for certification- not necessarily instruction. But if there were obvious short-comings in your certification classes please share them; this is an effort to continuously improve what students are receiving.
Best regards,
-'bridge
Okay:
- Safe Weapons Handling
- Basic weapon manipulation: Load, Clear, Reload, Immediate/Remedial action
- How to draw from concealment
- Basic use of a handheld light
- What to do after an incident
Stonebridge
09-28-11, 18:28
Redhat: thanks so much for your input.
So far, everything on that list will be taught; low-light training is the most recent addition to the class material and it's gotten good reviews so far.
A hurdle I've had a hard time clearing is holster work; often students have sub-par holsters or no holster at all. Without requiring specific makes and models it makes it difficult as you can well imagine. I do have a handful of holsters including some of the "universal" (which "universally suck") holsters so people at least have something to work with. I'd appreciate anyone with suggestions on this particular topic as well.
-'b
Here is my .02 worth.
How to unholster your firearm while keeping the holster in your pants.
How to rapidly reload if necessary.
How to swivel your eyes to keep yourself out of danger and avoid it instead of confronting it.
When and where you can expect danger and how to recognize it.
What is the minimal round count you should carry.
How many times do you squeeze the trigger before it is to much.Like is 15 rounds of Hollow point to the chest to much. Or not enough.
Maybe even a day at a local range to help facilitate what was learned.
Local laws on what I can do and cant do to a person.
My class consisted of a few hours of ass time. Now don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the class and learned a few things but most of it I already knew. Maybe I just need to go take a Magpul class the next time there in my area.
Our CCW instructor literally had a trunk full of kydex holsters to fit most common makes/models if you had a need to borrow one. I don't see how that's feasible though?
Talking about a class teaching CCW or the bare minimal class that is the mandatory to get certified for CCW? I suppose this should be one in the same but the certification course I had to do was really a Handgun: 101 class with showing of types of handguns, storage, ammunition overview, safety, cleaning, legal overview of CC (laws relating to conceal carry), legal aftermath of a shooting, what to do during a confrontation (which largely is just the mentioning of yelling "stop, I've called the police, I have a gun, I will shoot" or something like that, geared more for home invasion), different things to skim the surface with a mere 50 rounds live fire with safety out the ass, something like 6 at 9 yards, 6 at 15, 6 at 21, 5 around barrier strong arm, 5 around barrier weak, 6 from picking gun off stool/loading mag/going next to barrier/yelling the "stop" line/shooting, don't remember the exacts of the rest but there was one with advancing targets, and couple others. Lot of things like carrying a light were not held and even mocked by instructors, Taurus Judge was triumphed as some super weapon, and other aspects could easily be removed.
For a comprehensive CC course I would like to see holster/carrying methods and selection, drawing/drills for it, more live fire at targets in general as well as greater variety of drills, going over printing and how to avoid it, and basically just about everything basic about CC that is needed to be effective in any scenario its used and not a class to be a slightly better gun layman.
Kind of brings up the question of whether certification should teach the lowest entry into handguns or should it be how to effectively conceal carry and require certain level of pre exhisting knowledge. There are obviously classes that do teach how to conceal carry and require a CHL for entry (in other words certification has been passed).
I think if you make it more thorough, many will complain that it is too restrictive.
In the state of Kentucky, I wish the shooting standards were a bit more strict. 11/20 rounds into a man size silhouette at 7 yards. At least some par times, reloads and draws. But that's just me
What to do with your pistol when you take a shit in a public bathroom with stalls.
Oh wait, he DID teach us that! :D
Post defensive shooting guidelines.
Stonebridge
09-28-11, 23:20
@BCmJUnKie.... so what's his/your SOP for a deucey? I seriously considered making business cards that read "Are you about to get mugged from behind?" And leaving them on the tops of urinals...
In Ohio, the CCW course is merely the NRA Basic Pistol: heavy on safety and conventional flat-range target shooting. About a single page is dedicated to the defensive aspect. As an instructor, I feel like I'm doing students a tremendous disservice by saying "there, you passed NRA Basic Pistol; you're good to carry a gun." But that's what a lot of instructors do.
I keep class sizes small, no more than six or I get an extra instructor to help. I teach the NRA material but I also offer pretty much everything already mentioned. Barriers, reloads, malfunction drills, moving targets, drawing from concealment, discussions on legal issues, role-play, ammunition selection, low-light... you get the idea.
One idea I'm toying with, instead of just reading the material on ammunition, I thought of giving the students each the opportunity to make a reloaded round themselves -under very(!) careful supervision- and shoot it. Thoughts? More trouble than it's worth?
But I've got two things working against me: a) I have to make sure I give the NRA materiel its due diligence and b) I constantly hear "you charge X-dollars for your classes?? I can go to such-and-such instructor and he only charges 1/2, 1/3, 1/128th that price!" Well... um... yeah. I bet he does.
I don't consider myself a fantastic shooter. I think I'm a decent teacher. I tell them these are things I've learned... they're "a" way to do it, not "the" way. But even with good response from students and good word of mouth, it's been tough filling classes regularly. But I like doing it and that's worth a lot.
-'b
@BCmJUnKie.... so what's his/your SOP for a deucey? I seriously considered making business cards that read "Are you about to get mugged from behind?" And leaving them on the tops of urinals...-'b
His method is after your pants are around knees or shins, you use the inside of your pants/boxers, as a "Table" if you will.
You simply set your piece on your "table" and take care of business.
I dont #2 in public restrooms generally so I have never used this "Stall table" method.
Are you serious about the cards?
If I found one of those I would
1) Take a pic
2) Pocket the card
3) Tell all my LEO friends about my awesome day
4) Sign up for one of your classes
Lol. You should do it
Stonebridge
09-28-11, 23:30
Another item I think I'm going to add this weekend is a booklet of standard drills -how to set them up and shoot them- for each student to take home. I can burn several hours just running them through repetitive drills over and over but I think sending them home with instructions is the better way and it means more time for other things.
Stonebridge
09-28-11, 23:32
BCmJUnKie... I'm serious. I plan on printing 100 or so of those with my next batch. Urinals and CCW don't mix in my opinion.
BCmJUnKie... I'm serious. I plan on printing 100 or so of those with my next batch. Urinals and CCW don't mix in my opinion.
Well thats pretty cool. I have carried for years. I would definately take one of your classes.
I have driven from Colorado to Florida and vice versa about 7 or 8 times.
Im always by myself and restrooms or gas stations is kind of a must.
I never feel uncomfortable, but I keep my eyes peeled.
It would be nice to hear your method on public restrooms and cross country driving while CCW'ing
Stonebridge
09-28-11, 23:52
Like you said, eyes peeled. Always alert. I avoid the urinals -you're just too compromised- and head to the handicap stall or whichever stall is down on the end. I'm guessing if someone's standing in front of it after passing a handful of empty ones, something's up. Sometimes I stand up facing the commode, if it's an extra sketchy location I stand up facing the door. Highly tactical technique, not for novices.... If I have to undo my belt, I usually set my gun on the paper dispenser if it's close or simply clamp it under my support armpit. The 'table' technique you describe is new to me but has it's merits. Maybe I'm too paranoid, maybe I've seen Zombieland one too many times. Maybe I'm a closet mall-ninja. Oh well, it works for me.
We don't have to take a CCW class in PA but both clubs I belong to teach them. One has an entire night dedicated to legal issues which I think is of major importance. They bring in a lawyer that specializes in it as well as a representative from local LE.
I think it's all about going to a good school and putting in the time. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for in most cases.
@BCmJUnKie.... so what's his/your SOP for a deucey? I seriously considered making business cards that read "Are you about to get mugged from behind?" And leaving them on the tops of urinals...
-'b
This is the nice thing about using a ranger vest to conceal. I unholster and put it in the vest pocket regardless of business. I pee in stalls so that ain't a problem.
Littlelebowski
09-29-11, 12:01
BCmJUnKie... I'm serious. I plan on printing 100 or so of those with my next batch. Urinals and CCW don't mix in my opinion.
Never had a problem with urinals and retention with AIWB. Never take my weapon out of the holster for urinal nor toilet.
Stonebridge
09-29-11, 12:30
I've never seen retention as the problem at urinals (at least not the *gun*). I just feel like it increases the likelihood of being mugged while you're at a disadvantage. Hence, the business cards.
I only use stalls if possible. Never take it out of the holster, just let it rest in the pants. Never been a problem?
How to deal with LE that either don't know the laws or don't like the laws. i.e. Park Rangers
How to deal with LE that either don't know the laws or don't like the laws. i.e. Park Rangers
How do you mean "deal" with LE that doesn't like the law? Not my problem. You can not like it all you want officer, but if I haven't broken a law, I'll be going on my merry way now. sorry.
I've only had contact with one that didn't "approve" of anyone having permission to carry but him. Wasn't an issue other than him expressing his opinion?
I think if you make it more thorough, many will complain that it is too restrictive.
It is an issue, I for one do not want overly restrictive requirements and wonder how much requirement should actually be forced if any at all. Doesn't seem to be to much difference between low and strict regulation of conceal carry, those who half ass knowledge and ability generally have guns that ride the safe, under the pillow, etc with those who actually carry being the ones who are half way decent. Have the obvious horror stories of people doing dumb things and being out there but how many of them are preventable since a lot of people can fake obedience with minimal requirements.
Still I think there could be some hard love yet reasonable test that focuses on different aspects that could replace a lot of the showing up and sitting around for hours to get a certificate. From there class time can be a little more advanced.
In the end I am not sure there is a perfect system possible due to the masses. Individually I and many others would require more than the certification class to actually learn anything new and really just piss away 12 hours for the most part doing it and then have to dedicate more personal time to learning the rest of conceal carry.
Obviously its an impossible dilemma to 100% satisfactorily address.
Stonebridge
09-29-11, 19:47
As far as requirements, I again have to revert to the NRA's guidelines. However, I do run each student through my "final exam" which incorporates using a door, pie-ing a corner and engaging a moving target from behind a barrier with no-shoots in the background and performing a reload. It's not pass-fail, it's just a culmination of most of the skills taught during our session. I get a great sense of accomplishment watching someone who may have had little firearms knowledge to begin with facing a complex problem and solving it.
Hopefully you can get them to understand that passing the state course is only the beginning and it motivates them to continue their own training.
theblackknight
09-30-11, 12:54
What to do with your pistol when you take a shit in a public bathroom with stalls.
Oh wait, he DID teach us that! :D
If you can, get the LAST stall to the wall. Corners are good!
His method is after your pants are around knees or shins, you use the inside of your pants/boxers, as a "Table" if you will.
You simply set your piece on your "table" and take care of business.
I dont #2 in public restrooms generally so I have never used this "Stall table" method.
Remind me to ask someone if they use the table method before I handle their gun. I don't want to handle something that has been resting on someone's racing stripe. Heck, I wouldn't want to handle my own weapon in that situation.
If you can, get the LAST stall to the wall. Corners are good!
+1. Agreed
Remind me to ask someone if they use the table method before I handle their gun. I don't want to handle something that has been resting on someone's racing stripe. Heck, I wouldn't want to handle my own weapon in that situation.
Lol I dont blame you. Thats nasty.
I really try not to think about what people do with their hands. Im not a germ a phobe but that shit grosses me out
In Ohio, the CCW course is merely the NRA Basic Pistol: heavy on safety and conventional flat-range target shooting. About a single page is dedicated to the defensive aspect. As an instructor, I feel like I'm doing students a tremendous disservice by saying "there, you passed NRA Basic Pistol; you're good to carry a gun." But that's what a lot of instructors do.
We teach our Ohio CHL classes with 14 hours in the classroom and 3 hours of range instruction. On the range, it's 3 or 4:1 ratio of students to instructors. Yes, you can find a class cheaper than ours, but we think the extra material and attention on the range is what sets us apart. We'd honestly like to include even more class material and range time, but are afraid of scaring off folks with any increased costs. Many students comment AFTER class than they wish it were more comprehensive, but I know we couldn't have convinced them of that BEFORE class.
We teach our Ohio CHL classes with 14 hours in the classroom and 3 hours of range instruction. On the range, it's 3 or 4:1 ratio of students to instructors. Yes, you can find a class cheaper than ours, but we think the extra material and attention on the range is what sets us apart. We'd honestly like to include even more class material and range time, but are afraid of scaring off folks with any increased costs. Many students comment AFTER class than they wish it were more comprehensive, but I know we couldn't have convinced them of that BEFORE class.
Maybe you could get some feedback if they would be interested in a more advanced follow-on class.
The "table method" is kind of interesting.... and gross. :D
Maybe you could get some feedback if they would be interested in a more advanced follow-on class.
Yes. We already do that. We bi-annually offer two follow-on Handgun I & II classes that are 8 hours each and can be completed back-to-back on a weekend (Sat. & Sun.). Those are the students I like working with the best. They've recognized they need further training and practice beyond the basic CHL and are willing to do it. These classes are a pleasure to work. We even have a couple students who take these every year to keep up their skills.
Unfortunately, the others just don't get it.
If you can, get the LAST stall to the wall. Corners are good!
I'd prefer to have at least a few feet to retreat and move should somebody attempt to attack me in the head.
Stonebridge
10-05-11, 21:02
@Wicked:
I really think OH has done a disservice to the public by giving that 2-hour range time minimum. Glad to hear you're going above and beyond as well. I've gotten good response from both my advanced ccw class offerings as well as my home defense classes/ccw classes. A good portion of Ohioans want to be able to carry "just in case" but really want someone to teach them basic HD principles. Adding low-light to the course has been really great too.
I get a lot of requests for one-day courses because of students' schedules. I do them but they're brutal. How do you break up your 14+3?
BTW- at the class on Saturday I used a Lee Classic Loader in 9mm to have each student reload a cartridge which I then fired from my 92F. That really helped the section on ammunition sink in. I think it's going to be a permanent addition to the course.
@Wicked:
I get a lot of requests for one-day courses because of students' schedules. I do them but they're brutal. How do you break up your 14+3?
Our CHL class is 14-hours of classroom and a minimum of 3 hours of range time. Classroom time runs Monday through Thursday, 6:00 – 9:30 PM each evening. We are off on Friday, and then everyone goes to the range on Saturday for 3+ hours.
Can't see doing it all in only one day. I'm too ADHD. Twice a year we offer a weekend only class, with everything stuffed into a Saturday and Sunday.
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