I want a M&P9...but this??!!

[wha-tah-hey]

From thread:
M&P jamming while chambering a round
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86491

(quote)
nickdrak
Senior Member

My own experience is based on 10+ different (including 3 of my own) M&P9's (4.25" fullsize) with 15 of my own magazines and every other magazine from the other owners/officers pistols over the past 4 years.

Additionally, I have replicated the "Auto forwarding"/failure to feed issue with several different defensive loads. I have also replicated it with a KKM match barrel and the different defensive loads. It is not specific to my 3 pistols, or the several other M&P9's that I have handled. I am confident I can replicate the same with ANY M&P9 fullsize that is handed to me.

I have done the testing based off of my training experience with the platform, and I am comfortable carrying the platform and use either the slide stop or the over the top method to send the slide into battery during loading, emergency reloads etc. I avoid employing the "auto forward" technique for all of my pistol platforms.

I could make the ftf issue occur at-will with any of the pistols I have handled. The failure to chamber issue shown in the video I posted is a new issue reserved for that specific pistol and all of its new style mags.

I believe KhanRad is spot-on regarding the need for an extended feedramp on the 9mm M&P's.
(endquote)
--------------------------------

Hi all -

I've researched for months to decide on my best CCW option, decided to go w/M&P due primarily to info on this forum (ergonomics, accuracy, reliability, on and on), decided to go w/9mm (after years of "bigger is better") for many reasons (shooting cost, hi-cap, essentially same effectiveness, less recoil, on and on) espoused on several forums - and then I read the above thread/post.

This seems a big problem, given the emphasis on reliability as, perhaps arguably, Item 1 on most everyone's what-to-buy checklist.

Right now, I don't want (having to decide on) another make or caliber, so I ask all to refrain from such suggestions at this point.

So what's the "rest of the story" on this issue?
Is this only when "auto-forwarding" or have I made a bad decision?

Thanks.

regards,

[jwperry]

I agree with member nickdrak that I can replicate a failure to feed consistently with the new square base plate magazines. My circle base plate magazines are still 100%(when tested with FMJ and Winchester Ranger T RA9TA).
To be honest, I'd bet it is ammo specific and if I could get my hands on some Federal HST or Speer Gold Dots I'd like to test it a bit more.

[wha-tah-hey]

I think I read in the "M&P Problems" thread that the 9mm has probs feeding mid-weight HPs, which is what I understand to be most recommended and what I'd want to shoot.

Another [U]big[U] prob for me if it's endemic.

[wha-tah-hey]

I agree with member nickdrak that I can replicate a failure to feed consistently with the new square base plate magazines. My circle base plate magazines are still 100%(when tested with FMJ and Winchester Ranger T RA9TA).

JW -Not getting any info so far, but I'm not familiar w/the mags.
If it's better feeding, is the circular style available separately?

Thanks.

[snackgunner]

Well, shit. This is the first Ive heard of this problem.

[wha-tah-hey]

Well, shit. This is the first Ive heard of this problem.

Check this thread also:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86491

Apparently it's not just from auto-forwarding, but it's sure a deal-breaker for me if it's common to the 9mms.

regards,

[wahoo95]

Mine alway auto forwards when I 45 Degree Bump it......I like that feature and have never had a problem with either style of mag.

[F-Trooper05]

Mine alway auto forwards when I 45 Degree Bump it......I like that design flaw and have never had a problem with either style of mag.

Fixed it for you.

[wahoo95]

Fixed it for you.

Not a design flaw.....especially when you consider the same can be done with Glocks, Berettas, and some Sigs.

[mtdawg169]

Not a design flaw.....especially when you consider the same can be done with Glocks, Berettas, and some Sigs.

... and HKs.

[wha-tah-hey]

The question is:
Should one trust one's life to a SD handgun that may or may not feed SD HP ammo during loading (and even emergency (tactical?) reloading, as one poster reported)?

Yes, any machine can fail, but seems the M&P9 is fine for folks willing to make it right (as the .45 Gov't-style is often characterized these days).

I'm still reading thru 34 pages of the "Problem" thread and feel more and more that the M&P9 is not the right choice for me.
Guess I need to decide between Glock 9mm or M&P40.

regards,

[F-Trooper05]

Not a design flaw.....especially when you consider the same can be done with Glocks, Berettas, and some Sigs.


Here's what Jason Falla says on the topic...



I have never heard of a training scare like this being given a title?

Auto Forwarding??

This has never been taught as a method of reliably sending the slide back into battery and neither should it be! This is a training scare that has developed over the years due to poor instruction technique during initial training. Unfortunately some model handguns are more prone to this unfortunate event than others. Eg. Beretta M9.

I have seen so many students use this 'technique' as the preferred option during a reload and when the slide fails to release they look at the gun as if it has cauliflower growing out of it!

The other reason that I don't like it is because I have seen all too frequently the slide going into battery prior to the magazine being fully seated and hey presto, you have yourself and failure to fire!

So please people, lets stop giving training scares names and encouraging poor weapons handling.

The only recommended methods of releasing the slide from the locked position is either:

(1) Using the Slide Release/stop.
(2) Sling-shoting the slide.

Relying on 'auto forwarding' will never beat using the slide release for speed or accuracy of the drill. But it will get you killed faster!

I'll leave it up to you!!

[PdxMotoxer]

Sorry if i missed it but could this be a NEW M&P??

I know over at the M&P pistol forum (hope i didn't break any rules)
it is commonly talked about that there is a small "break-in" to these pistols before Hollow Points load 100%

shoot a few hundred FMJ's and even put a little polish to the feed ramp
then move to JHP or other Hollow Points.

(if it is a new mag issue sorry I've been out of the loop as i have 7 rounded gray followers mags and had ZERO issue after the "FMJ Break-In")

[Nephrology]

Uh oh guys, M&Ps are totally worthless! And now so are Glocks too! and SIGs!! and any 1911 that didnt cost 8,000 dollars!!

I'm going to give up shooting all together and practice my kung-fu...

[wha-tah-hey]

I'll restate my concern:

I want one, but it seems there may be a design flaw in the 9mm M&Ps, possibly caused by a short feedramp, which causes 9mm JHPs, including the +P loads recommended by S&W for these models, to not feed reliably.
It is appparently not a magazine issue (beyond the fact that mags are not designed secifically for the tapered 9mm case), but likely due to the original .40 cal. feedramp design being used for the 9mm, which, due to tapered-case design, does not have the same feed characteristics/mechanics as either .40 or .45 straight-walled cases.

nickdrak noted: "I could make the ftf issue occur at-will with any of the pistols I have handled."
If true, this disqualifies the 9mms as a self-defense handgun for me, no matter how well they shoot FMJ practice ammo.

And I'll ask 2 simple questions:

If you have shot JHP in your M&P9, has jamming been a problem with them?
If so, does power-stroking cure the problem?

Personal experience input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[DJK]

If you have shot JHP in your M&P9, has jamming been a problem with them?
If so, does power-stroking cure the problem?

Personal experience input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Over 5K with my 9FS all with 124gr HPs and I have not not had one problem. Never any ball ammo. No break in period. No FTF & no FTE. Ammo is mostly my reloads and Speer 124+P. I never auto-forward. It will if I try, but I consider it a unsafe practice. Of course, now it will go all to hell on my next trip to the range.:D

[St.Michael]

... and HKs.

I have never tried this with an HK. This happens all the time with my Glock. I'm not sure how to feel about it. I would hate to rely on it though and have it NOT happen in a moment when you expect it to.


As far as the 9mm mp being messed up. This is also the first time I have read this and it makes me wonder since I was planning on picking one up.:D

[wha-tah-hey]

I think most any semi-auto, light-framed maybe easier than heavy, will autoforward if slapped hard enough with a full mag - just the physics of mag inertia overcoming tension on the slide stop/release and of no real concern to me, tho' I'd also much rather have it one or the other.

But a pistol for SD possibly not feeding SD ammo is a biggie.

DJK - glad to hear your positive experience and best of luck next time out. ;)

[C4IGrant]

You concern isn't warranted. Remember that we are talking about a IMPROPER emergency reload. No, auto-forwarding is NOT the proper way to load the gun and is why it is NOT a valid technique or something that should EVER be taught or practiced.



C4

[C4IGrant]

I think most any semi-auto, light-framed maybe easier than heavy, will autoforward if slapped hard enough with a full mag - just the physics of mag inertia overcoming tension on the slide stop/release and of no real concern to me, tho' I'd also much rather have it one or the other.

But a pistol for SD possibly not feeding SD ammo is a biggie.

DJK - glad to hear your positive experience and best of luck next time out. ;)

The M&P DOES feed SD ammo (when the weapon is properly fed).



C4

[wha-tah-hey]

Re: feeding, see especially KahnRad's and chilic82's posts here -
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86491

Yes, I know, a sample of 2 - that's why I'm asking for more samples.
I read of many who shoot '00s/'000s of WWB, Tula and other FMJ, which is fine but doesn't relate to JHPs.

But if proper feeding obviates any problem, what's the procedure?
I'd really like to feel confident about buying the mid-size.

Thanks.

regards,

[C4IGrant]

Re: feeding, see especially KahnRad's and chilic82's posts here -
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86491

Yes, I know, a sample of 2 - that's why I'm asking for more samples.
I read of many who shoot '00s/'000s of WWB, Tula and other FMJ, which is fine but doesn't relate to JHPs.

But if proper feeding obviates any problem, what's the procedure?
I'd really like to feel confident about buying the mid-size.

Thanks.

regards,


For the record, I loaded mags up with Speer GD (147gr and 124gr) and slammed my hand into the rear of the grip (inducing an auto-forward). They chambered the rounds with no issue.

With the above said, there is a right way and a WRONG way to load a weapon and slamming the mag in OR hitting the rear of the frame at the same time that the mag enters the magwell is INCORRECT.

If you are not sure how to properly load a pistol, I would suggest that you attend some pistol training classes (Vickers Tactical, Hackathorn, etc).



C4

[wha-tah-hey]

Ah, wow c4 - I apologize if I still haven't made it clear.
I admit my original post was not well-directed.
I encourage you to please reread my subsequent posts.

I'm not concerned about autoforwarding; also I don't use/recommend it, and I do know how to properly load/reload a semiauto.
I've been doing it for years.

Again, my concern is whether the M&P9 has a design-induced problem due to it's .40 cal.-design origin causing jams when feeding JHPs in both normal/tactical loading as reported by some (as well as possibly when autoforwarding), 'cause I'd like to feel confident about buying one for SD/CCW.
Thank you for your test report, and I'm hoping other reports will result from asking about this subject.

regards,

[C4IGrant]

Ah, wow c4 - I apologize if I still haven't made it clear.
I encourage you to please reread my posts.

I'm not concerned about autoforwarding, also I don't use/recommend it, and I [U]do[U] know how to properly load/reload a semiauto.
I've been doing it for years.

Again, my concern is whether the M&P9 has a design-induced problem due to it's .40 cal.-design origin causing jams when feeding JHPs in both normal/tactical loading as reported by some (as well as possibly when autoforwarding), 'cause I'd like to feel confident about buying one for SD/CCW.
Thank you for your test report, and I'm hoping other reports will result from asking about this subject.

regards,

There is no issue with feeding JHP and really never has been.


C4

[wha-tah-hey]

At this point, all I can say is that the post last cited above indicates otherwise, and I do want to hear from other owners.

Thanks.

regards,

[saddlerocker]

My M&P9 full size has had no issues feeding JHP's.
Although ive only shot about 150rds (Hey, their expensive)

It would be talked about everywhere and no one would be using the M&P9's if it was a common problem. There are metric ****tons of people/Law Enforcement Agencies using M&P9's with defensive ammo.

It sounds like a believable theory, and an extended feed ramp may give piece of mind, but I have never heard about any common issues feeding JHP's in the M&P

[C4IGrant]

At this point, all I can say is that the post last cited above indicates otherwise, and I do want to hear from other owners.

Thanks.

regards,

Never judge an entire weapon by one report.

S&W has tons of US and International LE contracts. If there was an issue with JHP feeding, they wouldn't have won a SINGLE contract.




C4

[mizer67]

I have 3,750 rounds of Montana Gold 124 grain JHP and 100 rounds of Gold Dots through an M&P 9mm FS without any feeding issues, since July '11, with a 2010 mfg. gun, since I switched over from .40 S&W, which M&Ps also fed JHP, to the tune of many more thousands of rounds without issue.

Even during auto-forwarding, it's never missed chambering a round, but I don't intentially practice doing so.

[wha-tah-hey]

Thanks for your report, mizer64.

And to you both, c4 and saddlerocker - that's an aspect I've wondered about.
I know many PDs and spec-ops units use the M&P40/45, but I haven't heard of professional use of the M&P9.

Would you share info on some of them?

regards,

[C4IGrant]

Thanks for your report, mizer64.

And to you both, c4 and saddlerocker - that's an aspect I've wondered about.
I know many PDs and spec-ops units use the M&P40/45, but I haven't heard of professional use of the M&P9.

Would you share info on some of them?

regards,

Tons. Just this year, the M&P (in 9mm) beat Glock (GEN 4), HK P30, Beretta Storm and FNH FNX in a head to head competion for the Belgium and Austrailian State Police. They also won another large contract in Asia, but I don't know if that is public record yet.



C4

[Animal_Mother556]

My MP9 is a few years old now. It has a lot of rounds through it...gotta be pushing 5 or 6 thousand now. I've never had ANY trouble with feeding ANY kind of ammo. Everything from Tulammo, reloads, cheapo silver bear hollow points, PMC, Gold Dots, etc......

She just plain runs, man.

[pennzoil]

At this point, all I can say is that the post last cited above indicates otherwise, and I do want to hear from other owners.

Thanks.

regards,

Listen to Grant he won't stear you wrong.

I have a M&P FS 9mm and compact that have feed HP ammo fine. I've had one stovepipe in 5000rds running a mix of ammo with a good amount being Berrys plated HP, Hornady XTP HP's and Montana gold HP. I don't try to auto forward but have had it happen during drills. One of my 2 pin Glock 19's (used as backup for classes) doesn't like HP ammo unless it has extra strength magazine springs (with or without a WML) but I'd carry one of my main Glock 19's in a heartbeat again as they eat everything fine.
Jam with plated HP with WML
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2337/jam4.jpg

Small sample size from me but any gun can have issues . Buying from a quality manufacture will minimize risk and S&W will take care of the gun if you have issues. I hope I didn't just jinx my M&P right before a 2 day class this weekend:shout:.

[wha-tah-hey]

And thanks again, c4 - that is reassuring.
A quick search verifies the Belgian adoption to replace the FN.
I suppose it's outdated, since no 9mm, but the 3 references I ckd about Australian Police handguns state Glock .40s for Western & Northern Territories standard, tho' 1 noted the M&P40 as newly adopted by Victorian police.

regards,

[mrosamilia]

And thanks again, c4 - that is reassuring.
A quick search verifies the Belgian adoption to replace the FN.
I suppose it's outdated, since no 9mm, but the 3 references I ckd about Australian Police handguns state Glock .40s for Western & Northern Territories standard, tho' 1 noted the M&P40 as newly adopted by Victorian police.

regards,

Not to be smart but with Grant's reputation why do you continue to brush aside his knowledge and try to trudge more BS about a completely proven weapon that he knows more about than probably anyone here??

[wha-tah-hey]

Not to be smart but with Grant's reputation why do you continue to brush aside his knowledge and try to trudge more BS about a completely proven weapon that he knows more about than probably anyone here??

Not to be disrespectful, but I don't know Grant's reputation.
I try to graciously accept everyone's input and do not brush aside anyone's knowledge.
In fact, I went to the trouble to assure myself of his information and shared what I found.

TN has just been determined as the most likely state in the country for someone to be involved in gun violence.
As I've stated, I simply want to feel confidence in my purchase.
Only I can determine that state of mind.
Please forgive me if that offends anyone - that is not my intent.

regards,

[Abraxas]

Not to be smart but with Grant's reputation why do you continue to brush aside his knowledge and try to trudge more BS about a completely proven weapon that he knows more about than probably anyone here??

This.

[St.Michael]

Nothing wrong with lots of opinions! Grant has good deals on those m&ps. Will have to pick one up for sure. Maybe two!

[wha-tah-hey]

Nothing wrong with lots of opinions!

This, then.

I respect all opinions presented, but all opinions are a sample of one, based on varying degrees of fact, with variable verifiability.
I don't think verifying information when possible should be seen as a problem or disrespectful.
If a moderator feels I'm in any way out of line here, simply let me know - I'll end the thread immediately.
OR - if anyone will explain how it costs him something for me to continue, I'll end it immediately.

Otherwise, it starts to feel like I'm being bullied to shut up.
With a nod to Col. Grossman, I'm not a sheep.
I refer all to Abraxas' signature line.
Sound decisions proceed from sufficient information.
Please do me the courtesy to pursue my inquiry on an open forum to my satisfaction.

Thank you.

regards,

[Ironman8]

Ok well here's my opinion:

1) You shouldn't train to "auto-forward" nor should you worry about it. Unless you gorrilla pump the mag into the magwell, you won't have an "auto-forward". If you train to be smooth and precise, it is highly unlikely that a smooth magazine insertion will cause an "AF"

2) IF you DO get an "AF" while in training or in a defensive situation, TAP, RACK, BANG! Works everytime and is pretty darn simple! Yes it will clear the "AF".

3) If there were feeding issues for JHP ammo, then the platform wouldn't have the following that it does...no it doesn't have Glock-like following, but there are plenty that use it (especially here on this forum) and can account for the fact that it is a VERY reliable handgun. In fact, there are many who switched FROM a Glock to the M&P...the ergonomics (IMO) can't be beat.

4) Bottom line is, its your decision, and coming to an online forum asking a question will get you between 2 and 100 different answers. You can't seem to get over this "M&P is unreliable on the 9mm platform" thought regardless of what people tell you, so you need to figure out if its worth the risk to get one and try it for YOURSELF, or just go with a different platform...and trust me, about the only thing that will be disappointing about the M&P will maybe be the trigger. But I find it is very workable for a "combat handgun".

5) FWIW, I own two M&P 9mm FS handguns and carry one of them everyday. No problems whatsoever, and I would trust my life to it.

6) Please start referring to "jams" as "malfunctions" before someone not as nice as me comes along and verbally stomps you. "Jam" is what goes on your toast.

Hope that "satisfies" you....:D

[jwperry]

JW -Not getting any info so far, but I'm not familiar w/the mags.
If it's better feeding, is the circular style available separately?

Thanks.

They are just the newer generation magazine; I'm not entirely sure that the floor plate makes a difference. I haven't had time to check to see if they made any changes to the followers or feed lips. I'd imagine that is where my problems/differences are.

[wha-tah-hey]

Thanks, Ironman8, that's a helpful post, and duly noted.
I'm certainly satisfied with your contribution. :)

regards,

[Ironman8]

Thanks, Ironman8, that's a helpful post, and duly noted.
I'm certainly satisfied with your contribution. :)

regards,

Anytime!

[jaxman7]

They also won another large contract in Asia, but I don't know if that is public record yet.



C4

Off topic and out of curiousity, Grant are you referring to the Pakistani contract or another location?

-Jax

[longball]

6) Please start referring to "jams" as "malfunctions" before someone not as nice as me comes along and verbally stomps you. "Jam" is what goes on your toast.

Hope that "satisfies" you....:D

You beat me to it Ironman.

I honestly do not understand why everybody freaks the heck out about this. My M&P, that has several thousand rounds through, has autoforwarded on occasion. That being said the one and only MALFUNCTION I have had was NOT one of the times when it did autoforward.

Also, I'll admit that 95% of my occurences of autoforwarding was early in my training when I would seat magazines a lot harder than was necessary.

Finally, to reiterate, autoforwarding has NEVER caused a malfunction to me personally and I certainly do not expect it to happen nor do I rely on it to happen and call it a "technique". Every time it has happened I have hit the release before I realized what had happened anyway.

Edit to add: I have seen only one guy (I belive on this site) who's autoforwarding has actually caused an issue. He could make his M&P autoforward and fail to feed a round.

[Nephrology]

This is why too much internet can be a bad thing, folks....


yes, it's true! your handgun, which had millions of dollars thrown into its development and research, which has been vetted and purchased by thousands of law enforcement units worldwide, MIGHT NOT WORK SOME OF THE TIME. kind of like how you also might get struck by lightening, or t-boned at a 4 way intersection on the way to work, or get leukemia and die. All of these things are DEFINITELY POSSIBILITIES.

Unlike leukemia, or a car accident, or a lightening strike, (all of which are much more likely than your handgun failing in the specific context of a defensive encounter, I might add) however, chances are that you can not only test the gun before hand to ensure that such a thing doesn't happen, but if you do find problems, you have probably one of the best warranties money can buy backing you up.

Seriously, people, can we stop losing our heads over the occasional one-off pistol that isnt workings so hot? Certain systemic problems (i.e. the design flaws associated with the Gen 4 Glock 9mms) are certainly regrettable, but keep in mind too that those are being addressed as well.

I know that it sucks to buy a gun and have it not work on you, but if you didn't buy total crap (*cough SIG cough*) odds are they company will do its very best to make it right for you, and in the interim the odds are good that you won't have to clear leather anyway. This is why LAV advocates buying in twos anyway....

Now that said, time to go change my pampers, I think I saw my Glock 17 thinking about stovepiping the last time at the range! It didn't but I was looking at it mighty hard and I swear it had that look on its face like "oh man I'm about to shit the bed during your string"! Better post about it on the internet!

[goldfacade]

I have a full size and have put 20k Montana Gold HP's (124gr and 147gr)down it in the past 2 and a half years. I have also shot many thousands of Lawman and Gold Dots (unsure of weight) thanks to training with local DEA.

Even though it does auto forward occasionally it has never caused a malfunction. To me this platform is as close to bullet proof as early gen Glocks. Proper technique with ongoing training solves a lot of problems. Take a class, learn new things and practice, practice, practice and you will see this platform shine.

Peace

[C4IGrant]

Off topic and out of curiousity, Grant are you referring to the Pakistani contract or another location?

-Jax

Another location.



C4

[C4IGrant]

This is why too much internet can be a bad thing, folks....


yes, it's true! your handgun, which had millions of dollars thrown into its development and research, which has been vetted and purchased by thousands of law enforcement units worldwide, MIGHT NOT WORK SOME OF THE TIME. kind of like how you also might get struck by lightening, or t-boned at a 4 way intersection on the way to work, or get leukemia and die. All of these things are DEFINITELY POSSIBILITIES.

Unlike leukemia, or a car accident, or a lightening strike, (all of which are much more likely than your handgun failing in the specific context of a defensive encounter, I might add) however, chances are that you can not only test the gun before hand to ensure that such a thing doesn't happen, but if you do find problems, you have probably one of the best warranties money can buy backing you up.

Seriously, people, can we stop losing our heads over the occasional one-off pistol that isnt workings so hot? Certain systemic problems (i.e. the design flaws associated with the Gen 4 Glock 9mms) are certainly regrettable, but keep in mind too that those are being addressed as well.

I know that it sucks to buy a gun and have it not work on you, but if you didn't buy total crap (*cough SIG cough*) odds are they company will do its very best to make it right for you, and in the interim the odds are good that you won't have to clear leather anyway. This is why LAV advocates buying in twos anyway....

Now that said, time to go change my pampers, I think I saw my Glock 17 thinking about stovepiping the last time at the range! It didn't but I was looking at it mighty hard and I swear it had that look on its face like "oh man I'm about to shit the bed during your string"! Better post about it on the internet!


Right. Someone reads some random post on the errornet and then comes up with the idea that all 9mm M&P's won't chamber hollow points. :rolleyes:

Total waste of everyones time.



C4