View Full Version : S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-11, 21:06
Hear me out.
I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:
1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.
2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revovler is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.
3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.
4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.
5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.
6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.
All great points, especially this one.
But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.
I can't count the times when I've been out with a bunch of gun guys, and when I ask where their gun is, it's "in the car".
Anyone who makes the effort to carry a bigger gun, extra mag, etc., all the time, is to be commended and respected. But if that's not you, then find something you will carry, all the time. For most people, a J frame is one that you easily can.
Rule 1 of gunfighting. Have a gun.
Greg:
You should do a "break my J frame test". :)
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-11, 21:57
Agreed. Absolutely no disrespect intended to those guys who slog it out with a combat autoloader. For years I tried carrying P7s, P2000s, G19s. G17s, 1911s, etc. I even lugged a P229 for a few years. All were much better combat handguns than the J-frame...absolutely no contest. The problem is, I can't justify carrying like that all day. I am a professional who has to wear slacks and button-ups all day, and I have a 2 year old. So threading belt-slides or even IWB holsters on and off all day, while lugging a heavy autoloader just doesn't happen. But I AM going to carry a gun. Given my line of work, I am probably more likely to get in a serious physical confrontation than anyone other than a cop or bouncher (LOL). I WILL have a gun, unfortunately, "5 for sure" may have to do.
SAM,
I would be suprised if a J-frame would hold out like the P2000 and HK45. LOL.
I carry a 342 when carrying a Glock 23 is either impractical or I just don't want to go to the hassle of concealing a larger auto. They are great for what they are but I quite honestly feel much more confident with a more substantial firearm. However, it beats the hell out of a fork of pocket knife.
I have carried J-frames before. What I like about them is that they carry nice in a jacket pocket. It is comforting in a situation when just putting your hand in your pocket makes you ready for anything and no one around is the wiser. A revolver will also function in your pocket if necessary.
I have carried J-frames before. What I like about them is that they carry nice in a jacket pocket. It is comforting in a situation when just putting your hand in your pocket makes you ready for anything and no one around is the wiser. A revolver will also function in your pocket if necessary.
As long as it's a hammerless or shrouded hammer gun.
Working graveyards in a bad neighborhood, the only place to get coffee was the all night convenience stores. Standing off to the side of the front counter at 3 in the morning, with coffee in my left hand, and my right hand in my Tuffy jacket pocket, I probably looked like a doofus lazy cop to the gangstas. They had no idea they had a gun pointed at them as they walked up towards me.
SeriousStudent
10-02-11, 01:07
I have two J-frames: an all-stainless Model 60 in .357, and a 642 with Crimson Trace laser grips.
Greg, I do have one caveat for your list. These two are arguably the most difficult guns to shoot well that I own. An airweight 642 has sights as an afterthought. And recoil management can be problematic.
The .357 rides in a parka or topcoat outer pocket in the winter, so I can do exactly what CoryCop25 and Jake'sDad does: Have my hand on it when needed.
I know it's possible to obtain a decent group. Grip and proper load selection got a long way. A wise gentleman once said "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final." I'm very fond of a pistol that is easy to shoot well under stress. It's hard to do that with a J-frame.
I did end up purchasing a steel 2" Model 60, just to have something easier to practice with. I got extremely lucky, and the used pistol I bought is freakishly accurate. But that's a rare thing.
I have the 642 in my pocket as I type this. But I carry a G19 with a X300 when I am out and about most days.
I think that the 642 should be everyone's second pistol, but I tend to lean towards the G19 for the first, by a narrow margin.
It's interesting food for thought. The tone of my post is meant to be thoughtful and polite, and not argumentative.
One of the differences in today and 30 years ago, is that today, easier to shoot autos are the norm. We were stuck with our revolvers, and consequently, we shot the piss out of them.
When I had 25 year old eyes, making head shots double action, at 50 yards with an Airweight Smith, was boringly easy. But they gave me all the .38 reloads I could shoot, and I took full advantage.
The hot rock shots today can do the same with their Glocks. It's just a matter of what you practice............a lot....
SAM,
I would be suprised if a J-frame would hold out like the P2000 and HK45. LOL.
true, but i think that makes it more valuable to do a serious endurance test. I know my glock will go longer than i need it to, my j-frame i could potentially wear out. I'd like to know what to watch for failure. I'd be forever grateful if you'd do a 10,000 round challenge on one. :D
A J frame will loosen up with a few thousand rounds. A little endshake, etc. Nothing that a good Smith can't tighten up.
titsonritz
10-02-11, 05:15
My advise to someone packing an S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon is have two of them. A speed-loader is not much smaller than a New York reload and a whole lot slower.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-02-11, 07:54
I have shot my current 442 for the last three weekends. Weekend 1 was a mishmash. 100 rounds of lead, 50 rounds of jacketed, 20 rounds of gold dot, and a bloody thumb. The second week was 150 rounds of Federal Lead, last week 100 round of WWB and today I plan on shooting 10o more rounds of WWB and 50 rounds of Federal Lead. Currently (I am a flake so this is not set in stone) my plan is to change up my shooting routine. I am going to shoot 100 rounds per week from my carry gun (the 442) and 100 rounds from my AR. I will then split a 500 round box of .22 between my AR conversion and my Ruger .22 pistol. I figure that should keep the old muscle memory on about everything. At this rate it would take me a year to shoot 5k through the 442 but I do tend to shoot more than I plan. The trick will be to keep me from flaking out and buying another gun.
GHB
Beat Trash
10-03-11, 13:48
Hear me out.
I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:
5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.
A while ago, there was a thread started by Doc G Roberts about the Glock 19 being the new J-frame. It got me thinking and I looked up about a weeks worth of offense reports. While not scientific, we are seeing a trend to multiple suspects (usually 2-3), all armed.
The biggest disadvantage to a J-frame as your sole self-defense gun is the limitation to 5 shots. For me, this is a deal breaker. Especially with the various options in smaller 9mm's available.
I have no issue carrying a Glock 19 or lately a M&P9c off duty. The vary rare times I need to go smaller, a PM9 works. But that's me.
We all need to do an honest assessment of our needs in a defensive tool, then chose the tool that best serves that need. If you're not actually going to have it with you during your time of need, what's the point?
I'd much rather see an individual carrying a J-frame at all times than having their Glock 19 in the glove box.
Greg, you're obviously making an informed personal decision, after thinking it through. You are also practicing with your J-frame. For your needs, it would seem the J-frame is a valid choice.
While I agree with your line of thought, for my needs, a J-frame is a back up gun.
Too often topics like this lead to blanket statements and assumptions that if it works for me, then it is the best choice for all. You didn't go there. This is to be commended.
If I were to rely on a J-frame (442 or 642) as my sole carry gun, I think the best way to consider carrying a reload may be a second gun. I know one individual who carries a pair of 442's for this reason. Food for thought...
I tend to get wordy in my replies. To sum it up, a J-frame in your pocket at all times does beat a Glock 19 in the glove box.
Alaskapopo
10-03-11, 14:00
Hear me out.
I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:
1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.
2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revovler is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.
3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.
4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.
5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.
6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.
Here is my take.
J frame pro's
1. Extreme concealability (can be pocket carried) Its the gun I carry when I am jogging or on those occaisions when you really don't want people to find out your armed. Such as at weddings, church, first dates before they accept I am a gun nut.
2. Simple to maintain
To sum it up they are the best of the pocket gun class in my opinion. I don't trust the autos that are small enough to be pocket carried. The smallest auto I trust is the Glock 26 and that is my normal off duty carry gun and my BUG at work.
J frame cons.
1. Difficult to shoot. I can make hits out to 25 yards with mine for the qualification but its not easy. You have a light gun with a relatively heavy trigger and a very short sight radius.
2. 5 shot capacity coupled with it being extremely slow to reload. The main problem is spent case ejection. I consider a J frame a close range one threat gun, meaning you start at the threats chest and work your way up to his head with all 5 shots and then hopefully the threat is down and hopefully he does not have any friends with him. The J frame in my opinion is the pistol you carry when nothing else will be able to be concealed and its the least amount of pistol you ever dare carry.
As for the glove box gun I don't have one. I keep an 870 behind my seat.
With respect to Greg I know climate plays a role. Here in Alaska I have found it easy to carry larger handguns. I carried a full size 1911 off duty for the last 7 years or so and only recently went to my Glock 26. When I went to Florida a few years back for training I brought a 442. It was so freaking hot and humid down there that I did not want to leave the hotel wearing anything more than shorts and a T shirt.
Pat
PA PATRIOT
10-03-11, 19:21
Once you get hooked on the size and weight of a S&W Model-337 its hard to carry larger guns during the summer when your wearing Shorts and a T-Shirt and out for a run or bike ride.
I consider the .38spl J-Frame the smallest gun I prefer to carry and have retired my Kel-tec P-32, P3AT and a Seecamp .32acp which used to be my little guns of choice.
My Model-337 is a run and gun and not a stand and fight piece meaning its mission is to help me break contact while on the move. As always situational awareness and scanning your environment will help you avoid most encounters.
A few random thoughts on J frames
I used to have a S&W 640. I regret selling it 15 years ago, but my final semester of college seemed more important at the time.
I did not like carrying it as a primary, but occasionally did when my mode of dress dictated so. I am now a little older and am more likely to change my mode of dress to accommodate my primary weapon.
I found speed strips to be the most convenient way to carry extra ammo.
I felt very comfortable with that as a backup to my Gen 2 Glock 22 .
I shot it very well. The hammerless design allowed for a high hold with a very natural point with my wrist locked forward.
I have never been a fan of laser sighted pistols, but can see the potential in this platform. Who am I to argue with LAV?
50 rounds per practice session was about all I could comfortably tolerate.
I liked pocket carry with an Uncle Mikes pocket holster. The holster was cheap and performed well for me. It was invisible in the front pocked of pleated khakis. My back pocket on the weak side was used for backup carry.
I also picked up an old inverted shoulder holster from the bargain bin at the gun shop I worked at.
I am a fan of J frames. However, you have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the platform and deploy it accordingly.
"5 for sure" is hard to argue with for a back up. However, the new generation of sub compact autos certainly make a compelling argument. The potential for magazine commonality between back up and primary is a definite bonus.
Currently, I carry an agency issued HK P2000 with Insight M3LED as my primary with a P2000sk as a backup/off duty choice.
I would like an alloy J-frame for use when jogging. I can not seem to carry the P2000sk comfortably while exercising.
I carry my 340M&P every day. On duty backup and off duty primary.
I am huge fan of centennial j frames. I rely on mine as my primary home defense gun (although I do have a few higher capacity guns just in case).
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
my take on j frames after 30 or so years carrying one:
they are hard to shoot well only if you don't practice with them- most people who carry one if they shoot it at all throw a box a year through one- Shoot a box a week of quality practice for 6 months and you'll have no problem getting one hole groups at 10 yards- more than adequate for the purpose. I don't consider myself the ultimate pistol shot but can easily hit a steel target gong(shaped like the old fbi q target) at 100 yards with a snubby.
Mine probably has 20K thru it no problem- they do hold up well (mine is a late 60's all steel gun- alloy guns may be different in this regard)
it is a good general carry gun- FOR ME- maybe not for others- I use an ankle rig daily- it s on me as we speak- and for those of us in jobs/activites where you need to keep the gun very low profile it is an excellent choice.
In a worse case scenario- it will buy me time with its 5 shots and one reload to make my way from my desk to may car- parked about 50 yards away- where my shotgun is.
An interesting story about J frames. Last March I hosted a two days handgun class. The instructor is a nationally known Legend :). I picked him up at his hotel and were heading out to eat. There were five of us that night, myself, another civilian plus three sworn law enforcement officers. The weapon breakdown was:
Lawman 1: 1911 main, J frame back up
Lawman 2: 1911 main, J frame back up
Lawman 3: J frame only
Civilian 1: 1911 only
Civilian 2: 640 J frame .357 main + 642 J frame .38 +P back up
Five people, five J frames. :)
Been looking for a decent M36 for some time. Most I've been seeing since I've been looking have been square butts, I want a round butt. I will get one, hopefully next week if the bonus is big enough.
anatolian B
10-07-11, 21:12
I love carrying my small revolvers. The idea of using one as your primary is fine with me, two is even better!
I have considered carrying two year round and never having my M&P9 on me. I tend to carry my 9 during the winter when concealing is much easier, people wear heavier cloths etc, but those little Js are hard to give up. I often carry two IWB-appendix, one at 10 o’clock, one at 2. It is comfortable, light, and affords an easy draw with either hand. The only concern I really have is the low round count.
Every time I see a used J-frame for sale in a gun shop I feel like I have to rescue it like a lost puppy.
I carry a 442 or 60-15 depending on holster or front pocket carry . They are small,light and powerful. Commando wise are 5 shots enough I would say so as I woudnt carry a larger pistol than I have to . During 100*+ heat the J frame is easy to pack around in mininal clothing. I like J frames!!!
true, but i think that makes it more valuable to do a serious endurance test. I know my glock will go longer than i need it to, my j-frame i could potentially wear out. I'd like to know what to watch for failure. I'd be forever grateful if you'd do a 10,000 round challenge on one. :D
The lightweght J frames aren't the type guns you would want to fire thousands of rounds through. IMO
The lightweght J frames aren't the type guns you would want to fire thousands of rounds through. IMO
I fully intend to put at least a 1000 a year through mine in the name of proficiency. I just want to know when and where i should be looking for failure points. I've done 140 rounds in a session before. it hurts.
I fully intend to put at least a 1000 a year through mine in the name of proficiency. I just want to know when and where i should be looking for failure points. I've done 140 rounds in a session before. it hurts.
No need to run that much live ammo thru your gun to maintain proficiency. Get some snap caps and do lots of dry firing, this can be done everyday at home. It's the muscle memory of getting into the fight that needs the most practice. Shoot it just enough to keep up the marksmanship side of things which for me is about 50 live rounds a month.
...a bloody thumb.
I use this specific grip for J-frames:
PRO TIPS with JERRY MICULEK (http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html), shootingusa.com/, 6th panel down. I have medium hands, but I'd bet this grip will work with large hands. I'm right handed and it keeps my thumb well away from the cylinder release. With Hogue bantams I can shoot standard wadcutters and SGD +P all day.
Daily 442 carry since 1996. In the past I EDC was either a 1911 variant or a 4" .357, but I live in a fairly quiet rural area and usually am not far from a full sized handgun and a rifle. The 442 shines as an "always" gun and as a "loaner".
I have had rotator cuff surgeries on both sides now, and the 442 was still usable during those times of limited dexterity. I don't have back problems (yet!) but if one does, a 442 is a lot easier to have on you than most handguns.
I wouldn't recommend the 442 for an only gun, but if it's all you have and you're willing to operate within its parameters, it sure beats throwing rocks. And as mentioned, a second 442 should make a nice reload.
I carry my J when hiking, etc. I always pack a speed strip too. However, I can shoot a Glock 26 or M&P 9C so much better ( never mind more than double the capacity) that I'm going to make the effort to carry one of the semi-autos almost all the time.
Dos Cylindros
10-18-11, 12:38
At my first LE agency I carried a J frame airweight on my ankle during patrol duties every day. I was/is a great secondary weapon. I also found it making its way into an apendix rig on my off duty time as it was just so light and handy to carry. After an incident which occurred while working plain clothes and carrying a G27 as my primary, I realized that had I been packing my J frame I would likely have been in a world of hurt. That incident caused me to reserve the J frame for only BUG duties while in plain clothes and on patrol.
Flash forward to my current agency which is a primarily rural sheriff's department where your backup is often more than one hour out and I again found myself reconsidering my needs in a BUG. This agency issues the M&P 40, so I recently purchased an M&P 40c which rides in a Galco ankle glove holster (in my opinion the only choice in an ankle holster for patrol duties). This gun serves as my off duty gun and on duty BUG. Obviously the fact that it takes my larger gun's magazines is a huge plus on patrol.
The J frame is a great weapon, but I think in these "modern times," there are far better choices for a primary defensive gun. The advent of the sub compact service weapon I.E. G27, M&P compact and the like has seriously caught up to the venerable J frame. They offer better shootability, faster reloads, and more capacity and for the most part are just as easily carried as long as you stick to ankle or belt holster.
The J frame is a great weapon, but I think in these "modern times," there are far better choices for a primary defensive gun. The advent of the sub compact service weapon I.E. G27, M&P compact and the like has seriously caught up to the venerable J frame. They offer better shootability, faster reloads, and more capacity and for the most part are just as easily carried as long as you stick to ankle or belt holster.
That summarizes my thoughts.
I am never without a J-frame in some way (642 or 442), but they are almost always a 2nd/3rd gun rather than primary.
Then again, the carry location and its accessibility at the moment of conflict is the true determinant of what is a primary gun, and what is otherwise, isn't it?
Vorpal_weapon
10-19-11, 14:05
Given my vocation, I decided long ago to be armed ALL THE TIME. Its just too important and too easy. I started with autos in the military, and when I subsequently entered civilian LE (toward the end of the protracted transition from revolver to auto) autos were mandatory at my rookie academy. Despite my keen passion for fine S&W wheelguns, I have to concur with a close friend (an IDPA 4-gun master with multiple national titles in SSR) who correctly observed, “Its just not a revolver world out there anymore.”
That said, I own a couple of J-frames - model 38s. I normally carry the nickel one and it’s equipped with CTC’s excellent laser grips. Along with LAV and others, I too have found that laser grips on a J-frame are simply a “must have.” Laser grips enable me to effectively use the svelte snubby at more than CQB distances. The laser really makes unconventional, out-of-form (like flat-on-your-back) positions very feasible. The laser also makes an excellent training tool.
I carry the M38 as a BUG a lot. However, I only carry the M38 as primary when the perceived threat is very low (places like church) or when clothing/concealment needs override all other factors. For those occasions, I figure 5 shots beat none at all. Additionally, I train for rapid reloading and carry those options as well. With the M38 and my Benchmade axis-lock folders, I don’t really feel under-armed when going to the mall or out to dinner - but even in slacks, I carry 1-2 speed strips and a 940 Osborne. Preparedness for self defense involves a lot more than what you're carrying - good training, proper mindset, smart choices, paying attention to your surroundings are all at least as important.
The OP makes great points. I own a J frame, a model 342. I traded a model 60 in on it because I wanted lighter weight and a covered hammer. It is the gun I carry when concealing my Glock 30SF is a concern. I would rather be counting on 5 rounds of .38 +P than nothing. A S&W J frame should be a part of everyone's collection. :cool:
But two. Practice with one. Carry the other.
As I previously noted (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81729&page=2), while I still like J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as a primary carry weapon.
In times where I absolutely, positively, MUST not get made, I carry a 442 and at least two speed strips. Sometimes I carry it in addition to my M&P9 which I usually carry AIWB (which in itself affords a large degree of concealment).
Essentially, it is my EDC, as I am never without it. I make every effort to carry the M&P whenever I can (18 rounds of 9mm beats 5 rounds of .38), but if I feel like I can't conceal it and the threat level is low, I'll leave it at home and only have the j-frame.
Hi,
I pocket carried a 442 for a few years and it is a very handy gun with a lot of advantages. Its strongest attribute (being so easy to carry) can also be a problem because you will so often carry it out of sheer ease instead of belting up a more capable pistol even though you should.
The other big issues for me are the trigger and capacity. It is very hard to hit quickly and under pressure with even with some trigger work. I was always shocked at how quickly 5 rounds go at the range, I bet they would go even faster in a bad situation.
The PM9 was a 442 killer for me. It conceals better in the pocket. It adds 9mm power. It adds a much more workable trigger. Real three dot night sights. Two more rounds capacity. Much faster reloads (mag fed). More manageable recoil.
I still keep my 442 for traveling between states where I can't carry. It is easy to unload and reload in the trunk of a car when entering/leaving states that don't recognize my carry permit. No change of a slam fire.
I feel much more comfortable with 7x9mm than 5x38spl. When I can I feel even more comfortable with 16x9mm in a G19 I prefer it.
I think the thing with the snub was that I knew if I ever needed it, I would probably be wishing badly at the time that I actually had my G19 because it is so much more capable of getting accurate shots and lots of them on target. I still think the same thing when I carry the PM9, but as strongly...
Good luck,
Alan
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-23-11, 19:42
Broke 1000 rounds today (1020). I become more impressed by the gun every day. I still have a tendency to break my shots to the right when I am trying to beat the timer, but that is me. The CT laser grips are fantastic also and have required no adjustment.
I understand the concerns reported by Doc and others, but I remain convinced that 5 shots is enough for the vast majority of likely civilian encounters--and as pointed out by many folks, beats the heck out of the G18 back at the house. I don't think any gun will feel like enough. In fact, just the other week this ridiculously large guy was screaming at his wife in front of his kids at Wal-Mart. He saw that I was frowning at him and he gave me the ol' eat feces look. I had my hand in my pocket on the J-frame. And while that felt comforting, I am sure an HK45 full size would have felt even better. But I guarantee I wouldn't have had that gun in any case because it was in the high 80s and I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
Again, if you guys have the willpower to slog it out with service handguns then my hat is off to you. I think I am going to keep working on my snubby skills for a while.
Alaskapopo
10-23-11, 20:12
Broke 1000 rounds today (1020). I become more impressed by the gun every day. I still have a tendency to break my shots to the right when I am trying to beat the timer, but that is me. The CT laser grips are fantastic also and have required no adjustment.
I understand the concerns reported by Doc and others, but I remain convinced that 5 shots is enough for the vast majority of likely civilian encounters--and as pointed out by many folks, beats the heck out of the G18 back at the house. I don't think any gun will feel like enough. In fact, just the other week this ridiculously large guy was screaming at his wife in front of his kids at Wal-Mart. He saw that I was frowning at him and he gave me the ol' eat feces look. I had my hand in my pocket on the J-frame. And while that felt comforting, I am sure an HK45 full size would have felt even better. But I guarantee I wouldn't have had that gun in any case because it was in the high 80s and I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
Again, if you guys have the willpower to slog it out with service handguns then my hat is off to you. I think I am going to keep working on my snubby skills for a while.
A J frame on your person does beat an AR in the trunk. However a Glock 26 or 19 on the hip beats a J frame in the pocket.
Pat
I've been carrying a 442 in a Kramer pocket holster loaded with 158gr LSWCHP's and they kick like a mule, want to upgrade/modernize my ammo for the 442, what ammo do you carry & recommend?
I understand the concerns reported by Doc and others, but I remain convinced that 5 shots is enough for the vast majority of likely civilian encounters--and as pointed out by many folks, beats the heck out of the G18 back at the house.
I have to agree about the sheer usefulness of the J-frame revolvers. I work in an office enviroment where descreet carry is imperative for avoiding liberal hysterics and being called out on the carpet. For me the little S&W revolver fits the carry role perfectly without standing out...or getting canned:bad:
As far as the limited capacity of only five rounds is concerned I figure that five shots is surely better than nothing. I also figure that most bad guys are probably not looking for a fire-fight with an armed opponent, most bad guys are probably looking for unarmed victims. There is an old saying; "Against a thousand crows one stone is enough". Likewise five shots is probably satisfactory as long as the malefactor is not a team of professionals making a paid hit.
Alaskapopo
10-23-11, 20:35
I have to agree about the sheer usefulness of the J-frame revolvers. I work in an office enviroment where descreet carry is imperative for avoiding liberal hysterics and being called out on the carpet. For me the little S&W revolver fits the carry role perfectly without standing out...or getting canned:bad:
As far as the limited capacity of only five rounds is concerned I figure that five shots is surely better than nothing. I also figure that most bad guys are probably not looking for a fire-fight with an armed opponent, most bad guys are probably looking for unarmed victims. There is an old saying; "Against a thousand crows one stone is enough". Likewise five shots is probably satisfactory as long as the malefactor is not a team of professionals making a paid hit.
I feel its better to plan for the worst than to anticipate your attackers being inept and idiotic.
Pat
I feel its better to plan for the worst than to anticipate your attackers being inept and idiotic.
Pat
That's great. But I'd probably get canned if they noticed a G19 bulge :thank_you2:
Alaskapopo
10-23-11, 20:47
That's great. But I'd probably get canned if they noticed a G19 bulge :thank_you2:
I understand. You are doing what you can to be armed given your circumstances. I jog with a Scandium J frame because my Glock 26 was causing me some back pain on the longer runs. (both carried in a fanny pack) You do what you got to do.
Pat
Alaskapopo
10-23-11, 20:50
I've been carrying a 442 in a Kramer pocket holster loaded with 158gr LSWCHP's and they kick like a mule, want to upgrade/modernize my ammo for the 442, what ammo do you carry & recommend?
Unfortunately it all kicks in these little guns. I like the Speer Short Barrel 135 grain +p Gold dot in 38 special and in 357 mag. But the load your using is good as well. For less recoil go with target full waddcutters. But there are trade offs. Less recoil but less terminal performance.
Pat
I usually lurk, hardly post. But felt like I should post this below. Its from a retired LAPD officer who is a sometime gun magazine writer now. He's also still in the Army National Guard or Reserve as a Lt. Colonel and been on several deployments. This response was in a topic on the Smith-WessonForum.com about what reloads people carry when CCWing.
How about a speed strip with 6 extra rounds? I've responded to several
civilian shootings and never observed a reload. When rounds start coming
out of the muzzle, everyone (including other bad guys) start running.
One or two shots and it's over, period. That's my experience in LA. Now
that I'm retired, a 442 (or 649, but that's a little heavier) and a
speed strip keep me safe. I can't imagine carrying the cannons some guys
here do. Two guns is getting out there, but I guess an extra gun not
needed is better than one empty gun. I'll never criticize someone else's
choice. And I always carried two guns in Patrol and Narcotics.
Bob
I also have to agree with Greg. I have a nagging back injury and find most of the time I can only carry a J frame. Because of this I shoot it extensively to better my skills considering its limitations. I'd love to take a class with Michael de Bethencourt, roload practice is paramount.
I carry a gun everywhere - by virtue of my job there are few places in the US that I can not carry, and all of those are private property.... so I dont need to go there.
I carry a Glock 23 most of the time - its what I carry at work most of the time and out and about most of the time, but there are times that it is more comfortable and/or socially appropriate to carry my 340PD - certain church functions (when I am doing some form of labor and can't wear heavy covering garments, or am horsing around with kids 2-16 years old), dressed up nice and out with my lovely wife, or during some of the really hot days where I carry it for sheer comfort.
Now you can decide to try and go through life armed to the teeth with a primary and BUG plus knives, flashlights and two reloads for each gun , or you can go through life (like I have chosen) armed with a firearm but primarily armed with common sense, situational awareness and a survival mindset.
Most people go through life unarmed and not paying attention to their surroundings and manage to make to old age without to many bad things having happened to them. I figure if I am more prepared than most people and better armed then I have a better chance of making it through life in peace - but you never know.
For me it became a question of compromise - I am always armed with a firearm of some sort, and like I said it is usually my G23, but I am also out to enjoy life, and be comfortable.... some of that I am willing to sacrifice for safety sake, but there is a point where you come to diminishing returns. You can not protect yourself from everything in life - but you certainly can do your part to diminish risk to acceptable levels, what I find to be an acceptable level might be considered paraniod to some, and head in the sand to others.
I dont go places that aren't fairly safe, I dont go out late (unless I am working), I dont drink more than a single small beer while carrying a firearm, I check my exits and pick a booth where I can see what is going on around me (or if I am seated somewhere I at least pick a seat with a good view), my family knows the safety drill etc.... but at some point I figure you have to be willing to accept that there is risk inherent in life.
ALL THAT JUST TO SAY:
J Frames are great for carry as long as you are willing to accept the limitations of them as part of your personal risk matrix.
Semper Fi.
If you guys haven't already, you need to read "The Snubby Revolver" by Ed Lovette. He's former CIA and talks alot about situational awareness and snubby tactics.
As far as loads, the Speer NYPD load 135gr.+P JHP, is what I prefer. The CorBon DPX is a nice load too, light recoil compared to the Speer and very accurate.
Alaskapopo
10-23-11, 23:05
I usually lurk, hardly post. But felt like I should post this below. Its from a retired LAPD officer who is a sometime gun magazine writer now. He's also still in the Army National Guard or Reserve as a Lt. Colonel and been on several deployments. This response was in a topic on the Smith-WessonForum.com about what reloads people carry when CCWing.
How about a speed strip with 6 extra rounds? I've responded to several
civilian shootings and never observed a reload. When rounds start coming
out of the muzzle, everyone (including other bad guys) start running.
One or two shots and it's over, period. That's my experience in LA. Now
that I'm retired, a 442 (or 649, but that's a little heavier) and a
speed strip keep me safe. I can't imagine carrying the cannons some guys
here do. Two guns is getting out there, but I guess an extra gun not
needed is better than one empty gun. I'll never criticize someone else's
choice. And I always carried two guns in Patrol and Narcotics.
Bob
I also have to agree with Greg. I have a nagging back injury and find most of the time I can only carry a J frame. Because of this I shoot it extensively to better my skills considering its limitations. I'd love to take a class with Michael de Bethencourt, roload practice is paramount.
I hate speed strips I can't reload with them to any degree of what I would call speed. Its easier to just put a speed loader in your pocket.
Pat
From Officer.com, some videos from the Snubby Summit back in '05.
http://www.officer.com/search?q=POSA
Type this in the search bar....Defensive Snub Revolver Program
My mantra has always been that you should carry the biggest, most effective gun that you can comfortably and effectively conceal. On weekends that usually means my M&P9C, but during the week when I'm in slacks and a tucked in button down shirt I'm not really dressed to conceal. What usually happens is that the M&P rides between the seats on the way to work, locked in the glovebox while at the office and rides between the seats on the ride home and then back into the glovebox if I have to make any stops on the way. I am not currently happy about this situation. And I'm considering a 640 or PPS for pocket or ankle carry. As much as I like the M&P9C it's just not an ankle gun being only slightly smaller than a G19. It's either that or I start wearing suit jackets or suit vests everyday as cover garments.
Anyway, it's a thought provoking thread for guys like me.
My mantra has always been that you should carry the biggest, most effective gun that you can comfortably and effectively conceal. On weekends that usually means my M&P9C, but during the week when I'm in slacks and a tucked in button down shirt I'm not really dressed to conceal. What usually happens is that the M&P rides between the seats on the way to work, locked in the glovebox while at the office and rides between the seats on the ride home and then back into the glovebox if I have to make any stops on the way. I am not currently happy about this situation. And I'm considering a 640 or PPS for pocket or ankle carry. As much as I like the M&P9C it's just not an ankle gun being only slightly smaller than a G19. It's either that or I start wearing suit jackets or suit vests everyday as cover garments.
Anyway, it's a thought provoking thread for guys like me.
What about a lumbar carry with a tuckable pistol. There are big drawbacks to the lumbar carry I know. But none of them as bad as not having a gun.
What about a lumbar carry with a tuckable pistol. There are big drawbacks to the lumbar carry I know. But none of them as bad as not having a gun.
I'm prohibited by law and company policy to carry at work so aside from carrying on the drive to and from work and any stops in between I probably need something that I can don/doff quickly a couple times during the day. I don't really see an easier option than pocket carrying something smaller aside from wearing a cover garment for my normal carry gear. My K25 actually goes on/off pretty quickly and easily even while seated in the car. I probably need to put some more thought into this.
If you can wear an untucked shirt, there should not EVER be problems carrying an adequate size handgun. During a recent Independence Day celebration, a couple of friends from the PD were teasing me about my uncharacteristically running around unarmed in just a hippie-cam T-shirt and shorts, as shown in the attached photo--not realizing I was carrying a 5" 1911 AIWB in an Alessi holster, along with a couple of extra mags. Carrying a G19, M&P9c, or G26 would be even easier...
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7354&filename=GKR%20AIWB%201911.JPG
If you can wear an untucked shirt, there should not EVER be problems carrying an adequate size handgun. During a recent Independence Day celebration, a couple of friends from the PD were teasing me about my uncharacteristically running around unarmed in just a hippie-cam T-shirt and shorts, as shown in the attached photo--not realizing I was carrying a 5" 1911 AIWB in an Alessi holster, along with a couple of extra mags. Carrying a G19, M&P9c, or G26 would be even easier...
Other then a slight bulge over my wallet carrying a g23 in a tuckable iwb holster is actually less likely to print then untucked. The "poofing" effect around the waste from tucking shirt in hides a multitude of grips. I've even slipped the g22 in on occasion and the only problem is a little less comfort when seated in the truck.
My S&W 637 isn't the only defensive handgun I carry...it's the only defensive handgun I own. I even manage to sleep ok at night.
I'm thinking of upgrading soon though. I should note, however, that the upgrade might still be a revolver, and might not be carried much(still looking into that). ;)
Other then a slight bulge over my wallet carrying a g23 in a tuckable iwb holster is actually less likely to print then untucked. The "poofing" effect around the waste from tucking shirt in hides a multitude of grips. I've even slipped the g22 in on occasion and the only problem is a little less comfort when seated in the truck.
if you can get away with an untucked shirt over a tucked t-shirt a g19 in a tuckable holster is pretty much invisible.
that said, nothing beats a j-frame for comfort.
The best use for a J frame I have found so far is pocket carry in the hand warming pockets of a jacket, with a full sized pistol underneath. I won't carry a J frame as a primary.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-26-11, 22:40
I usually do that (sans the extra gun). I walk with my hands in my pockets and my right hand on the grip of the pistol. So it basically is ready to go as needed.
Reviving an old thread…
I am very close to getting a 442/642. I have always carried a Glock 19 but find that working in a professional environment (shirt & tie) makes it hard to carry consistently and comfortably without a sport coat. I really am leaning towards trying the small j-frame out. I gotta get past the mental stigma of carry a 5 shot revolver though. Im almost sold.
Any feedback on the difference between the two finishes on the 442 vs 642 would be appreciated. I don't care about looks. Does one finish hold up better than the other?
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-18-13, 21:11
They are both fine. The 442's finish wears faster, but looks better worn. The stainless stands up VERY well.
The clear coat peeled/chipped off my 642 in short order, but my 442 has held up great. Go figure. I've seen several other 642's that looked like mine, and have read that maybe acidic sweat might contribute to it, but who knows. I know I never used any harsh cleaners on mine.
fwiw/imho:
I've bought/sold my fair share of Steel/Alum. S&W J frames in the past, reason: GAS-Gear Acquisition Syndrome . . . Selling one to buy something else.
- Do I regret it: YES.
This time around I waited for a good deal, and came across a S&W No-Lock 442-1 & won't be selling this one.
642 vs 442: Didnt matter to me, whatever is cheaper.
* G&R Tactical has both No Lock: 642-1 & 442-1 In Stock.
642-1
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=103810
442-1
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=150544
* Most that carry & have a J Frame in their line up will agree it has a time/place. Haven't heard anyone ever say it is a waste to own one.
Durability, well "Greg Bell" hit that one out of the park. I mainly grab mine when I have to run to the corner store for the Mrs., Take out the Garbage, Get the Mail, Go for a run, etc.
Throw a couple Speed Strips in the pocket = GTG
I carry a no lock 342pd when Im in shorts, or dressed up and cant carry my G26. super light super lopro
Recoil in the Airweights has always been an issue for me. Valid points but not my 1st choice.
Recoil in the Airweights has always been an issue for me. Valid points but not my 1st choice.
10-12 yards it rocks - yes a bit of a kick but it's a better than not having one gun.
If you want be in the fight then I say g26 or a shield
I hate speed strips I can't reload with them to any degree of what I would call speed. Its easier to just put a speed loader in your pocket.
Pat
I agree - when I do carry my S&W M&P 340 .357 in my right front pocket there is always a speed loader in the left front pocket. Reloads with a speed loader (HKS 36-A) are easier for me than speed strips. If I didn't have the J Frame there would be times that I didn't carry due to concealment concerns. Though it is not my primary carry weapon the J Frame serves a valuable purpose.
Doc Safari
12-19-13, 09:25
I made the journey to J-frames out of necessity. I was a Glock man for just about the entire length of time I've been a gun owner until I seriously considered the J-Frame. Now I should change my screen name to "Doc J-Framer"--LOL.
My reasons for switching:
1. I live in the hot desert Southwest. A J-frame is about the only gun concealable in summer clothing, and with difficulty even at that. I would never be able to carry anything like a Glock 19 or bigger (and I've tried). A J-frame can also be carried in a "disguised" holster such as a small nylon pouch easier than "the next size up" auto or revolver.
2. Despite the heavy trigger, I actually shoot my 642 better than my Glocks. The long, smooth trigger is easier to shoot and keep the gun on target than the distinct pseudo-two-stage trigger of the Glock.
3. "Five for sure" has certainly burrowed its way into my brain. Reading all the threads about latter-day Glock failures and my own experience of "brass in the face" with Glocks has made me rethink it as a primary weapon.
4. I don't have to buy mags for the J-Frame. Although having only five shots makes me nervous, it's important to remember that the best armed confrontation is the one that never happens. I try to remain situationally aware wherever I go, and if I think I'm driving into a situation where I might face multiple assailants, then I don't stop there.
5. My girlfriend has the same gun, so we can shoot each other's weapons proficiently in an emergency. I hesitate to think what might happen if I carried a Glock and she a Beretta or something and one of us has to shoot the other's gun in a hurry. Yes, you can train on each other's gun, but the fact that we both carry J-frames means we don't have to.
Reviving an old thread…
I am very close to getting a 442/642. I have always carried a Glock 19 but find that working in a professional environment (shirt & tie) makes it hard to carry consistently and comfortably without a sport coat. I really am leaning towards trying the small j-frame out. I gotta get past the mental stigma of carry a 5 shot revolver though. Im almost sold.A 442/642 in the front pocket is better than a Wilson combat 1911 in the safe. I am sure most self defense use with a pistol will be very up close and personal. Probably in personal contact range and that is where a J frame shines.
A 442/642 in the front pocket is better than a Wilson combat 1911 in the safe.
This is the universal truth. I remember being chided by my group of friends at work for only carrying a J frame sometimes. The group was all pistolero's, IPSC shooters, Gunsite grads, SWAT, firearms instructors, etc., and most of the group claimed they wouldn't carry anything less than a 1911 off duty.
I started doing spot checks when some of us would be out after work, at a ball game, etc., and it's amazing how many times I would be the only one in the group carrying anything at all. But they were all very well armed under their car seats.
Several folks that would know, say that even Cooper sometimes carried only a J frame. "Jannele's gun".
If you will religiously carry a G19, 1911, or other full size gun, you're obviously better off. But like you said, a gun on you is better than one that's not on you.
Rule 1 of gunfighting: have a gun.
I believe only the 642's are in stock at this time.
fwiw/imho:
I've bought/sold my fair share of Steel/Alum. S&W J frames in the past, reason: GAS-Gear Acquisition Syndrome . . . Selling one to buy something else.
- Do I regret it: YES.
This time around I waited for a good deal, and came across a S&W No-Lock 442-1 & won't be selling this one.
642 vs 442: Didnt matter to me, whatever is cheaper.
* G&R Tactical has both No Lock: 642-1 & 442-1 In Stock.
642-1
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=103810
442-1
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=150544
* Most that carry & have a J Frame in their line up will agree it has a time/place. Haven't heard anyone ever say it is a waste to own one.
Durability, well "Greg Bell" hit that one out of the park. I mainly grab mine when I have to run to the corner store for the Mrs., Take out the Garbage, Get the Mail, Go for a run, etc.
Throw a couple Speed Strips in the pocket = GTG
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-13, 19:00
I started doing spot checks when some of us would be out after work, at a ball game, etc., and it's amazing how many times I would be the only one in the group carrying anything at all. But they were all very well armed under their car seats.
TRUTH
dookie1481
12-19-13, 22:35
10-12 yards it rocks - yes a bit of a kick but it's a better than not having one gun.
If you want be in the fight then I say g26 or a shield
I would rather be out of the fight.
I dig my 340, my Shield has helped my carry cycle a bit. But in the AZ summer, the j frame rules.
The smallest gun I own is a Glock 19. Gave the J frame and 32 away.
"Dress up" for me is tucking my shirt tail in. That's usually the only time my 642 gets carried. Otherwise I have no problem concealing my G23, even in t-shirt weather, & it or a G17 is with me all the time.
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh579/GEARS45/IMG_3167_zpse3845e83.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/GEARS45/media/IMG_3167_zpse3845e83.jpg.html)
Well, after reading a lot of these j-frame threads one followed me home today. Just need to order some Crimson Trace grips for it now.
brushy bill
12-28-13, 18:29
And do something about the lock, which can seize when you need the gun most. S&W knows, but won't do anything about it.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-28-13, 19:48
Excellent choice. Mine had gone 4000 plus rounds without a hitch. Realistically, you could have that handgun the rest of your life.
PriseDeFer
01-07-14, 18:20
"...as sole self-defense weapon."
You have to be careful here. When I first slipped a 442 in my pocket it was three years later when I came too and realized that not only was
this overgrown derringer the only gun I carried but it was, often, the only gun in the house that was loaded. I have been soundly and completely debauched by this bit of aluminum and steel. I see 12 steps in my future.
I don't see this happening to me at all. My Glock 19 gets all the action when I'm not in gym shorts or dress pants. It's great to have options, I would never replace my other guns with this, just use it when i need to.
I see a J-frame as a necessity, but it won't be my only firearm.
Lost River
01-08-14, 09:22
I carry a J Frame 442 daily, and have for the last (roughly) 14 years. It however is relegated to BUG role the vast majority of the time. On the Job, it backs up my issued M&P 40 (not a fan). Off duty, it is #2 to my G19. Very, very rarely is it a primary. Having been in some fights, I am not comfortable with 5 rounds before needing to reload. In fact I don't know a single person personally that has been in a fight on the job, that would (after their experiences) carry a J frame as their one and only gun.
CT laser grips are the single best thing (tertiary equipment wise) a J frame owner can acquire.
I think highly of the J Frame, but only within its limitations.
I am speaking from the background of concealed carry. I've been concealed carrying for a while now.
I used to carry a Glock 23 or 27 for the longest time. One style, one caliber. However, they're not pocket carry guns. The other pistols I have carried have been 90% IWB in a hybrid holster or a pancake OWB: 4.25" EB Special Forces 1911, Colt Python 4", S&W 586 L-Comp, and Glock 30/27/23/36. These larger framed options were mainly in colder temperatures where an outer coat can hide a firearm of a larger size much easier. However, it became cumbersome with respect to weight. This was especially true with travel.
A colleague of mine introduced me to a 442 and that's when I began adapting to pocket carry with a backup. It was not an easy transition, at first. It required a great deal of time dry firing and range time because of the trigger pull and the rudimentary sights.
The beauty of the pocket carry is that the user's hand can be right on it without raising suspicion. A J-frame 442 is perfect in that regard and it can even be in my coat pocket ready to fire without drawing it. It handles recoil with 38+P very well, and I've been able to hit with controlled pairs out to 25 yards. It point shoots very well for me out to 10 yards, and it even works very well at 3-7 yards held at the right iliac crest (just above the belt line at my side). Just to test it's accuracy from a short barrel, I've been able to hit steel plates at 50 yards with it. The conclusion was that a J frame is still more accurate than the shooter using it. My backup is a S&W 640 357 magnum IWB or a Baby Glock IWB. I have even kept a third one on me: a very tiny revolver, the NAA 22 WMR in another pocket because of its small size. I'd rather have another loaded revolver than reload with speed strips. The backup can also be handed to a loved one whereas a speed strip or speedloader cannot.
The chance of me getting in any situation is pretty damn slim, but I rather have it and not need it than deal with the alternative. In practical terms, I can spot erratic behavior or suspicious groups and avoid them rather than confront trouble. I don't have my face in my phone like most people these days. I'm always looking and listening to the surroundings.
This and the "break my J-frame" thread have been very interesting to me. My son took a job where unobtrusive carry is advisable. He bought a Taurus CIA snubby. It didn't work...had registration problem. The dealer is stand-up, took it right back and gave him another Taurus CIA. That one had the same timing issue, shaving lead from misalignment and occasionally locking up the gun. Based on these threads I recommended a 642. The dealer took the second Taurus back and for an Airweight Pro. Jeez, that's a well-conceived firearm. Certainly there are some compromises, but for his needs it's a perfect solution. He's deciding on a Crimson Trace grip. I gather that that is a highly recommended addition to these little pistols......
sole defense weapon...hm...can't agree. my 442 is my most essential piece, but i can honestly say that I have other guns in the carry rotation that just hands down are better guns....
glock 19, for those days when I can wear more than just a polo, I will always opt to carry 30+1 of 9mm over 5 38's and 2 - 5 round stripper clips in my pocket.
Its twice the firepower with half as many reloads.
Daewoo DP-51 9mm in my glove compartment box. 13 rounds waiting in a lock box half block away is better than nothing when I'm at work and where firearms are prohibited.
At home, I have a 7 shot 686+ 4" in the safe. It's a little heavy but most people I know can pull a trigger in the heat of the moment and its enough weight to steady most shooters.
Each pistol plays a role for the "average" shooter. I carry my 38 whenever I can't carry my glock 19. doesn't give it the title of 'only gun i need', but most essential tool (its like having a ratching screwdriver from snap-on, pretty darn useful, but not much help when I need a wrench or hammer, which are also other essential tools for the homeowner).
Drifting Fate
04-21-14, 23:27
As a sole piece? There are certainly times you could stop me on the street and find only a J-frame (and a knife), but as something to have without anything else in reserve? That would be tough. Better to have only a Glock 19, dress around it, and rely on it for HD, than only a J-frame. That said, the gun on you is worth ten in the safe.
I've known some older gentleman that were very very proficient with a J frame and a D frame. I believe they are acceptable if you use a NY reload.
I shot my Airweight Pro yesterday for the first time in a while. It reminded me what a nice, discreet carry piece the 642 is, but mainly reinforced for me what a fantastic pistol my PPS is as a self-defense tool. Airweight goes back to its specialized-but-limited role in my personal protection plan.
The J-frame for sure is enough for John Doe ccw. If I was active L.E. and or on a Swat team I would have a M4 and g17 and a J-frame in the pocket or vest or on my ankle. Most average people that CCW be well protected by a J-frame,but then you have web commando's that are scared to come off the front porch without a hi-cap and 3-4 magazines. Street smart's and good sense will get you a lot farther in the real world keeping you from getting shot. Godbless
frequent flyer
07-08-14, 16:51
A J frame in the pocket beats a Glock in the glove compartment.
A 442 has been my EDC carry for about 17 years now, and some of that time it was second choice to a 4" .357. The 442 is a dandy gun in that you can forget you're carrying it; but I never found a pocket carry rig that was secure, unobtrusive, and passably quick, all in one. The idiotic incident some time back in NYC involving an SUV and a gaggle of idiot motorcyclists may have been an outlier, but it's an increasingly crazy world out there. I still have and use the 442, but out and about I now carry a gen 4 Glock 19 in a Fobus and a spare mag. As DeNiro said in"Ronin", they're all just "tools in the toolbox", not torrid love affairs.
The 340PD has pretty much become my regular concealed carry piece. Rides well in a pocket or belt slide. Alot of times if I carry something larger like a G19 I have to sit crooked when driving.
specopsscout
09-07-14, 09:50
I've been carrying a handgun every day, on and off duty, for the last twenty-twoish years. So I have a little experience with it. In that time I've carried big guns, small guns and those in between. When I carried smaller weapons, most recently my ParaOrd PDA in .45 ACP(still admittedly larger, heavier and harder hitting then a 642), I did so, under the guise that my attire simply didn't allow me to carry something larger. So, Thunderwear and a PDA under baggy shorts made good Jersey shore attire. I convinced myself that some gun was better then no gun, I'd carry it more then shoot it, might deescalate the situation by presenting it, ect. The reality is, these were all copouts. It was easier to conceal, lighter and subsequently more comfortable. I forgot along the way that weapons I might need to save me, or more importantly those that I love should be comforting, not comfortable. I also forgot a few other things...
1. Bad guys travel in bunches just like bananas. One on one is considered a fair one and very nearly never happens. When it does, the one may still be bigger younger, tougher and more talented then you in hand to hand. More tougher bad guys, means more rounds that hit hard; not marginally hard, or acceptably hard.
2. People in gun fights miss. Those of us who take this seriously practice often, but the reality is folks occasionally have difficulty contacting with paper targets while calmly standing still and at reasonable ranges. Add adreniline, range, movement, odd positioning and possible injury, and the difficulty level just skyrocketed. Again, better regular practical training, and more rounds available and in the weapon.
3. Handguns, that is, all handguns, basically suck at stopping folks right now. They are significantly under powered compared to thier long arm counterparts and are also harder to use effectively with precision. This means I need to maximize my preparation(the only part I really have control over) by having the best possible platform to fight with.
4. Little guns are harder to shoot fast accurately. Short sight radius combined with abbreviated grips, combined with less weight means, slow less accurate return fire. That also means more time to take return fire, or more cuts, or more beatings; none of which is a good thing, and particularly when it's my wife and/or children taking it instead of me.
5. Little guns, and especially revolvers are slower to reload, and require more frequent reloads due to thier limited capacity. Additionally, becuase there is less to hold onto, they are more prone to fumbling, especially with adreniline charged, blood starved fingers, that may be wet with a variety of fluids including your blood.
5a. Folks who carry little guns do it primarily for convience and either don't carry reloads, or carry nearly impractical reloads. At least in the case of my little auto, I had a second little flat magazine to more slowly reload it with.
6. When I need a concealed handgun, everything else has failed. My planning, my situational awareness, my movement and attempts to disengage have all failed. My last option is now to fight. I need to win as it's the only option. I wouldn't jump out of an airplane with half a parachute...
7. I'm missing most of my kit, most of the time. On duty, I have in no specific order, access to multiple long arms, more ammo immediately available, body armor, an identifiable LEO uniform, radio, less lethal weapons like baton and oc, a knife, multiple flashlights, two pair of handcuffs, multiple flex cuffs, and lots of other folks from multiple agencies with the same stuff who will respond rapidly at my call, be more easibly able to identify me in my moment of need.
Off duty, I have a pistol, one or more reloads for it, a badge, a knife, a smaller flashlight, a pair of Toughties, and a cell phone that is much slower and less reliable then the radio. That's it, but it's still a lot more then many others carry...
Ultimately, for these and many more reasons, on duty I carry either H&K USP .40 LEM(issued) or ParaOrd P14.45 LDA Limited(personally purchased from authorized list). Either gives me capacity, a full sized grip, accuracy combined with a full sized sight radius, a full length barrel to maximize the caliber's ballistics and enough weight to keep the weapon neutral while I'm shooting.
Off duty, I carry either a Glock 35, or a Glock 17. They give me capacity, a full sized grip, a full sized sight radius, and a full length barrel to maximize the caliber's ballistics and enough weight to keep the weapon neutral while I'm shooting. the Glock 17 is my little lightweight pistol and is as small as I go these days.
I should probably add that as a little fat body of 5'8" tall I have zero issues concealing any of the weapons listed, but I learned a long time ago to buy my clothes to fit my concealed weapons, instead of the more popular plan of buying smaller weapons to fit my wardrobe.
As in all things, YMMV...
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-07-14, 23:19
Off duty, I carry either a Glock 35, or a Glock 17
You are the man! I used to carry like that. Maybe I will again one day.
I got my first carry permit in 1968, and my first carry gun was a K-frame snubby Smith. For the past forty six years I've carried a snubby, although now it's a J-frame LCR. I practice once or twice a week with it as well as other guns I have.
I've always felt comfortable with the capacity of a revolver and that's why I've always carried one. And I've had to use one twice years ago with favorable results. But if you don't feel confident carrying one, carry something else. Just make sure you practice on a regular basis.
specopsscout
09-08-14, 13:24
Thanks Greg. I've had this conversation many times with many young Officers over the years when discussing their off duty choices. I don't preach, but I will share my experiences when asked.
Alaskapopo
09-08-14, 14:26
Your size and the weather make a difference in what is practical to carry. Here in Alaska I carry a Glock 19 off duty and its my back up on duty. But in the lower 48 where its really hot I can see the desire for something small and easier to conceal.
Pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-12-14, 20:52
I agree. When I was in Alaska I felt like I could conceal a full-size Hk45. Burr!
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-03-14, 08:31
I am on vacation this week and, as always, thinking about guns in my free time. I am seriously, seriously considering selling off my Vp9s, HK45 and rifles and just carrying/practicing with my J-frame.
I am on vacation, and I have my J in my pocket and I keep thinking, why not just commit all you practice to the J-frame? Running 200 rounds a week through the .38 and 200 or so rounds through my .22 J-frame will probably make me as effective with a J-frame as most with a G-19--and I will actually have the gun with me at all times.
Of course, the true rebel in me says get rid of everything and carry ONLY the .22 J frame. Muahahha.
Doc Safari
11-03-14, 08:57
Of course, the true rebel in me says get rid of everything and carry ONLY the .22 J frame. Muahahha.
Easy there, Killer. I was tempted to cut everything down to a two-shot derringer some years ago. I still can't pass a display case with derringers in it without thinking about that temptation. You can end up defeating your ability to defend yourself by getting caught up in the "how small can I go?" madness. :p
I am on vacation this week and, as always, thinking about guns in my free time. I am seriously, seriously considering selling off my Vp9s, HK45 and rifles and just carrying/practicing with my J-frame.
I am on vacation, and I have my J in my pocket and I keep thinking, why not just commit all you practice to the J-frame? Running 200 rounds a week through the .38 and 200 or so rounds through my .22 J-frame will probably make me as effective with a J-frame as most with a G-19--and I will actually have the gun with me at all times.
If anyone could convincingly pull this off, it would be you.
Ah, the man with 1 gun... He only has one gun...
Statistically speaking, you'll be fine. But if you beat the odds, you could regret it. And if you do, it'll be too late.
While I carry a J-frame all of the time now, either as primary or as a BUG, I can't ever see not having a standard 9MM / 15rd pistol equipped with a light at home, along with at least a one long gun.
YMMV
Proceed cautiously with selling off your guns. Usually when we sell guns, we end up not having the guns or the money(blown later). Selling and later replacing a Mossberg is easy; however, Your list has no Mossbergs. So, will you be able to replace what you sell if you change your mind?
I am on vacation this week and, as always, thinking about guns in my free time. I am seriously, seriously considering selling off my Vp9s, HK45 and rifles and just carrying/practicing with my J-frame.
I am on vacation, and I have my J in my pocket and I keep thinking, why not just commit all you practice to the J-frame? Running 200 rounds a week through the .38 and 200 or so rounds through my .22 J-frame will probably make me as effective with a J-frame as most with a G-19--and I will actually have the gun with me at all times.
Of course, the true rebel in me says get rid of everything and carry ONLY the .22 J frame. Muahahha.
Building an uncommon level of snub proficiency is a great thing. I've been on the same path. It's challenging, and requires more frequent skill maintenance, but it's worthwhile.
I would still maintain inventory that gave me broader options, but there's nothing wrong with right-sizing the cabinet.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-04-14, 09:05
It appeals to my love of minimalism. I think a .38 or even .22 J-frame will do the job in the vast majority of cases. The other guns, my rifle, VP9 with X400 etc are really niche guns for super specialized applications. The funny thing is, they both take away time I could use building the snub proficiency I am most likely to need.
Before anybody has a heart attack, this isn't meant to be a solution for everyone. I am just a regular 9-5 self-employed dude. I am not a policeman or soldier. I just need something to protect myself and my family when I am at the house and when I am around town and at work.
It appeals to my love of minimalism. I think a .38 or even .22 J-frame will do the job in the vast majority of cases. The other guns, my rifle, VP9 with X400 etc are really niche guns for super specialized applications. The funny thing is, they both take away time I could use building the snub proficiency I am most likely to need.
Before anybody has a heart attack, this isn't meant to be a solution for everyone. I am just a regular 9-5 self-employed dude. I am not a policeman or soldier. I just need something to protect myself and my family when I am at the house and when I am around town and at work.
I did a similar thing about five years ago. I trained mainly on my 340 and my duty Glock 22. I left the 22 at work and had the 340 at all times. I found the 340 on me was better than the arsenal I had locked away in my safe. I sold off every other gun I had. I was almost to the point I could pull off consistent head shots at 25 yards under no stress.
I received a Glock 17C as a wedding gift from my father in law and that jump started my interest in 9mm and the panic buying brought me back into AR's. I'm currently in the process of standardizing on 9mm. I have a Ruger lcr in 9, 17C, PPQ and working on an AR pistol in 9mm. I'm itching for 19, VP9, 320 and an MPX.
Doc Safari
11-04-14, 09:29
It appeals to my love of minimalism. I think a .38 or even .22 J-frame will do the job in the vast majority of cases. The other guns, my rifle, VP9 with X400 etc are really niche guns for super specialized applications. The funny thing is, they both take away time I could use building the snub proficiency I am most likely to need.
I'm all for minimalism, but I hear "twenty-two" for a self-defense handgun and I am automatically reminded that it's not about making kill shots, but about "stopping the action". Unless I've missed something over the years, twenty-two won't knock a perp flat on his ass no matter what loading we're talking about.
Before anybody has a heart attack, this isn't meant to be a solution for everyone. I am just a regular 9-5 self-employed dude. I am not a policeman or soldier. I just need something to protect myself and my family when I am at the house and when I am around town and at work.
Amen, Brother. I saw the light when I realized I couldn't comfortably hide a Glock under a light shirt in the summer no matter how hard I tried.
Minimalist approach is great if it has a purpose.
[QUOTE=Doc Glockster;2019608]I'm all for minimalism, but I hear "twenty-two" for a self-defense handgun and I am automatically reminded that it's not about making kill shots, but about "stopping the action". Unless I've missed something over the years, twenty-two won't knock a perp flat on his ass no matter what loading we're talking about.
Neither will a .44 magnum. IMHO there is way too much attention paid to caliber of a personal defense handgun. As Ken Hackathorn has often told me, "no reasonable handgun round is a death ray." Think of the real estate rule, only modify it to fit shooting. Placement, placement, placement. Think of the elephant hunters rule. Penetration, penetration, penetration.
Elephant hunters use a relatively tiny cartridge to kill 8000 pound animals.
Do you know of people who hate you enough to keep on coming when shot? Cops and military might, but that is rare with civilians. Then if drugs are involved, only a CNS hit counts with any handgun caliber. This is the primary limitation of the .22, as it may not have much effect if it does adequately penetrate. The Mossad felt it was adequate when used in their Beretta Jaguars for airline security and assassination though.
People are not poorly armed if they have a .22. They are poorly armed with a larger caliber if they can't hit with it or don't carry it most of the time.
johnnywitt
11-11-14, 20:16
I wouldn't want to go up against an expert shooter with an 8 shot .22 J Frame that could put 2 head shots in me in less than a second.
A vest will defeat most pistol rounds and most guys are going to shoot for CM right into the vest. How about a Guy that's only going for close range head shots with the .22.
Jim Brady would tell you that usually doesn't end well.
It's also a huge tactical advantage IMO to front pocket carry a J Frame for CCW type defensive situations. I can have my hand on my gun before the other Guy can even start to peel back his cover garment.
J Frames aren't sexy or glamorous and are considered too old school, but they still work better than anything else in some roles IMHO.
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