View Full Version : Texas DPS article?
Read this "article" and this guy clearly seems to be a One Shot Stop fan but he mentioned something about Texas DPS articles. Has anybody heard this?
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
#2 As for some information backing up some of what DM2 has posted, there was an article a few years ago documenting the Texas Dept. of Public Safety's search for a new pistol. They had gone from .357 mag revolvers to .45 and 9mms. They studied all of their shootings and found that often officers were required to fire into cars, so ability to penetrate windshields and car doors was a consideration. I am going from memory here but here as some of the highlights:
.357 mag worked quite well but they were going with a semi-auto pistol. This was the round that all others were judged by.
9mm penetrated windshields and car doors BUT the bullet tended to fragment, meaning Bad Guy was hit with only fragments which did not penetrate heavy clothing.
.45 would penetrate windshields and car doors and stay intact. The problem was that going thru the windshields or car doors slowed the round down enough that it would not penetrate heavy clothing.
.40 caliber was considered but viewed as a cross between 9mm and .45, meaning you get the best and worst of both calibers.
.357 SIG is what they ended up getting. It had similar ballistics with .357 mag, would penetrate windshields and car doors and still have velocity and bullet weight to penetrate a bad guy.
"I am going from memory here"
Why quote third hand tales from people who can't be bothered to give the source, when you can find the info on current testing in the stickies above?
"I am going from memory here"
Why quote third hand tales from people who can't be bothered to give the source, when you can find the info on current testing in the stickies above?
I'm trying to find this mythical article that this guy is referring to. I know there is very accurate data in the above stickies.
I was not trying to support this guys view but debunk it by finding the actual article of proving that it doesn't exist.
Wrinkles--go right to the ammo manufacturer's own data; do you see any dramatic superiority or even a slight advantage with 357 Sig compared to other calibers?
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/EFMJBrochure.pdf
I totally agree with you guys again I was just trying to track down thisTexas DPS article this guy mentions. Personally I think he invented it but again just wanted to make sure.
I totally agree with you guys again I was just trying to track down thisTexas DPS article this guy mentions. Personally I think he invented it but again just wanted to make sure.
It's entirely possible that he either made up the reference, or he heard it 3rd hand from someone who made up the reference.
References go a lot further if the person citing it is using their real name, and they list real names of people he is citing.
I dont recall TXDPS ever using 9mm.
TXDPS still uses .45acp, but it is rather limited.
When testig for different calibers, what really got their attention was, and I fecal'eth thy not, was that unsupported block of 10% ordnance gelatin would fall of the table after being shot. In fact you can find a video of the very test on youtube.
During testing it was politely suggested, by more than a few people involved, that they change ammunition selection instead of caliber, gun, and ammo. Those suggestions werent taken.
Yes, the .357sig does have more than a few shoots in which it didnt peform as gunwriters claim.
Wow, it's amazing what some people will use to select ammo. Scary that this reasoning was used to select a caliber for such a large LEO agency.
Thanks for the info Fail-Safe
By the way, "DM2" is actually Deadmeat2. If I'm not mistaken he stretched the truth a bit much and was called on it by his co-workers.
Wow, it's amazing what some people will use to select ammo. Scary that this reasoning was used to select a caliber for such a large LEO agency.
Thanks for the info Fail-Safe
Having been involved in the LE community for 15 years, I'll tell you right now that we rarely adopt the best equipment, and that politics and ignorance often play major parts in what firearms and ammunition we use.
Thanks Fail-Safe I'll do a search for Deadmeat2.
KahnRad, I guess it's the same as in the university environment. The guy that decided what IT equipment to buy and how much to spend on networking had to have his secretary check his email. Guy just couldn't figure it out.
It's obviously not in print that I can direct you to, but I have had multiple conversations with TX LE and those who are good friends with them (including one Lieutenant at one of their FTU's). Everyone who I have ever spoken to says that the officers who have used their 357 SIG's swear by them. That specific lieutenant has kept up with the OIS's state-wide and with other like-armed agencies. Violent suspects are decisively going down within a few seconds of a solid hit.
The data is not in gel, and it's not "quantifiable". What it is, is evidenced by what we DO NOT see.
We DO NOT SEE spectacular failures from the 357SIG to perform, especially when loaded with the Gold Dot projectile.
Many large agencies (TX DPS being one of them) use the 357SIG.
Yet we do not hear about failure. We hear 2nd and 3rd hand reports of very successful shoots with it.
While Dr. Roberts has demonstrated in gel that it is at best a tarted up 9mm, the real world usage of the round has demonstrated that it stops people VERY well as compared to many other calibers.
The following for the 357SIG is almost religious, and in that same vein, I would adopt a religious argument: Prove it DOESN'T exist.
ie. Show me a single failure of the round when it hit the thoracic cavity in a non-peripheral aspect to provide a fast stop. I have yet to see it, or where inordinate amounts of follow-up were needed to effect a good stop (3-6 shots is NOT "inordinate" as a good shooter with adrenalin will get that many off in just a couple of seconds).
I realize my argument is not scientific, but it is evidence based.
It's obviously not in print that I can direct you to, but I have had multiple conversations with TX LE and those who are good friends with them (including one Lieutenant at one of their FTU's). Everyone who I have ever spoken to says that the officers who have used their 357 SIG's swear by them. That specific lieutenant has kept up with the OIS's state-wide and with other like-armed agencies. Violent suspects are decisively going down within a few seconds of a solid hit.
The data is not in gel, and it's not "quantifiable". What it is, is evidenced by what we DO NOT see.
We DO NOT SEE spectacular failures from the 357SIG to perform, especially when loaded with the Gold Dot projectile.
Many large agencies (TX DPS being one of them) use the 357SIG.
Yet we do not hear about failure. We hear 2nd and 3rd hand reports of very successful shoots with it.
While Dr. Roberts has demonstrated in gel that it is at best a tarted up 9mm, the real world usage of the round has demonstrated that it stops people VERY well as compared to many other calibers.
The following for the 357SIG is almost religious, and in that same vein, I would adopt a religious argument: Prove it DOESN'T exist.
ie. Show me a single failure of the round when it hit the thoracic cavity in a non-peripheral aspect to provide a fast stop. I have yet to see it, or where inordinate amounts of follow-up were needed to effect a good stop (3-6 shots is NOT "inordinate" as a good shooter with adrenalin will get that many off in just a couple of seconds).
I realize my argument is not scientific, but it is evidence based.
Question regarding my posted quote. Did your sources say anything about the 9mm, 40, and .45 under performing through barriers while the sig excelled?
TriumphRat675
10-04-11, 09:48
Back when I worked on the state side of things I had several conversations with DPS Troopers who said DPS picked the .357 sig over 9mm, .40, .45, etc. because of its supposedly superior penetration of car bodies.
For what it's worth.
Question regarding my posted quote. Did your sources say anything about the 9mm, 40, and .45 under performing through barriers while the sig excelled?
I can repeat this:
When Texas DPS adopted Sig-Sauers in 230-grain .45 ACP, they found it to be a really good "killer". That is, they were killing damn near everybody they shot. My friends on LAPD, LASD and San Diego (city) PD tell me much the same about their 147-grain 9mm issue loads. They're indeed "killing" a lot of people with it.
But the Texas DPS guys weren't at ease about their .45 ACP's because the bad guys were staying on their feet and still fighting, or running away into culverts and dark places, after being hit really well in the upper torso. It was taking too long for the BG's to succumb to their .45 ACP service ammo when compared to their institutional memories of the .357 magnum ammo. Again...the .45 ACP's were "killing" people. They were just letting the BG's have too many of those "dead man's 10 seconds" we spoke of.
In the field, DPS troopers are tangling with homicidal BG's and the BG's are going down conclusively within 2 or 3 seconds of sustaining an upper chest hit or two from a DPS .357 Gold Dot bullet.
Regarding the 124-grain Gold Dot +P 9mm, it is my observation that once a medium caliber jhp load like the 9mm hits about 1,300 fps in velocity, they (assuming adequate penetration) start to be really good performers. If I had a full-sized Beretta, Glock, Sig, etc with a 4-inch+ barrel, I think most lots of 124-grain Gold Dot +P's will clock a ways over 1,200 fps...and you reach a point where the BG's can't tell the difference. I know that the guys at Chicago PD, New York PD and other agencies are very content with the BG's collapsing quickly with good hits from the 124-grain +P Gold Dots.
^The above is from someone who has spent nearly 4 decades in a LE career. His information on the TX DPS satisfactory results with the 357 SIG comes from someone who follows the DPS shootings across the state from within the agency.
There have indeed been failures to stop with .357sig, including involving TXDPS. TXDPS doesnt mention shooting failures in their annual reports, but they have happened.
I sighted several news articles when I used to be on SigForum, regarding two separate shooting involving TXDPS(Highway Patrol). Both took place in the lower panhandle portion of the state. One involved 6 rounds, the other involved 4. Both suspects are alive and incarcerated.
The first was a suspect fleeing, trying to make it to New Mexico. He didnt make it. He turned around and headed back east, and a Trooper fearing for his safety fired through the windshield. According to all reports, the Trooper still had to get out of the way. According to all reports, the suspect was hit in the "torso" 6 times, was pulled from the car unconscious, and was transported to Lubbock.
The second was a shooting just inside New Mexico. Note: both New Mexico and Texas carry .357sig. A Texas Trooper fired on a suspect who was getting out of the car with a gun. That suspect was also hit in the "torso" according to the various articles(Abilene, TX). He fought a bit, went unconscious, but also survived.
Then there are the failures of the .357sig when using the 9mm 124 gr projectile which spurred a change in bullet design.
There has also been one failure of the .357sig when using the Winchester Ranger T series locally to me. An officer attempted to engage a bad guy, and fired through the windshield and later through the car door. None of his rounds made it through intact.
I have heard of this TXDPS person that supposedly tracks shootings involving .357sig. Unfortunately, the people who mention this person never mention a name to go along with the supposed data. Now I am not calling anyone a liar, but it just seems to keep cropping up. I know Dr Roberts hasnt a problem putting his name out there with comments
I hang out with family at DCSO on occasion, though not as much anymore. The Troopers are indeed happy with the .357sig. I am happy they are happy. That said, none of them have ever shot anything with it, and none of them seem to know anyone who has. A couple have used the cartridge, as I have, on the large population of feral hogs in Texas, and like me, they havent seen anything truly spectacular. They seem to be more happy that they are able to carry ARs instead of Mini-14s, and with a decent round (64gr Winnie JSP).
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But the Texas DPS guys weren't at ease about their .45 ACP's because the bad guys were staying on their feet and still fighting, or running away into culverts and dark places, after being hit really well in the upper torso. It was taking too long for the BG's to succumb to their .45 ACP service ammo when compared to their institutional memories of the .357 magnum ammo. Again...the .45 ACP's were "killing" people. They were just letting the BG's have too many of those "dead man's 10 seconds" we spoke of.
Thats an more of an indictment of product placement than caliber. A disruption or destruction of a CNS is still a disruption or destruction of a CNS. It doesnt matter what caliber it is. Hit it, and many of your problems are solved. Miss it and the problem remains, maybe for 10 seconds, minutes, hours, or days.
In the field, DPS troopers are tangling with homicidal BG's and the BG's are going down conclusively within 2 or 3 seconds of sustaining an upper chest hit or two from a DPS .357 Gold Dot bullet.
According to the mystery man. How did he come about the data? Video of the shootings, interviews, etc.? How can he quantify how fast bad guys are going down, conclusively? Where is his data?
That said, none of them have ever shot anything with it, and none of them seem to know anyone who has. A couple have used the cartridge, as I have, on the large population of feral hogs in Texas, and like me, they havent seen anything truly spectacular.
Indeed. VERY, VERY few officers actually ever have to shoot anyone with their service pistol(1 in 100+). Those that do, it is often a once in a lifetime occurance and what wins or loses the day is the officer's tactics and skill.......rarely the caliber. So it is very hard to do caliber comparisons in officer involved shootings because there are so many variables that nothing concrete can be learned. The .357sig does well against hard barriers such as metal, but only average performance against other materials.
There are exceptions. For instance, officers which are routinely part of deadly force encounters such as SWAT or other special teams, usually shoot more people than the average cop........simply because their job is to engage a deadly force threat more often. Those SWAT officers that I have talked to around the country use a wide variety of cailbers. An LA County SWAT sergeant that I have spoken to swears by 9mm. A Vegas PD SWAT officer swears by .45acp. Both have been in the shit numerous times, and both calibers worked well enough for both officers that they bet their lives on them.......
......could it be that both calibers are similary enough in terminal performance with modern ammunition that it is too hard to tell the difference between the two in actual shootings? With good ammunition, I think so.
First is the definition of poor results. Expecting a handgun to cause an immediate stop is unrealistic unless the CNS is hit.
We also need to think about all the differences when we say Department A uses X and it never fails, while Department B uses Y and has had some poor results.
If Department A has twice the training and ammo budget,
or more Officers that take training outside of qual,
or the type of shootings they are involved in are not ambush types. Department A will probably make better hits, so ammo X looks better than Y, even if the bullets performance is actually equal.
Thats an more of an indictment of product placement than caliber. A disruption or destruction of a CNS is still a disruption or destruction of a CNS. It doesnt matter what caliber it is. Hit it, and many of your problems are solved. Miss it and the problem remains, maybe for 10 seconds, minutes, hours, or days.
According to the mystery man. How did he come about the data? Video of the shootings, interviews, etc.? How can he quantify how fast bad guys are going down, conclusively? Where is his data?
I don't know ,but from what I was told, it sounds like this is a culmination of information based on asking those who did the trigger-pulling.
All I know is more energy is always better, provided that appropriate expansion and penetration also take place.
Nephrology
10-05-11, 06:51
I don't know ,but from what I was told, it sounds like this is a culmination of information based on asking those who did the trigger-pulling.
All I know is more energy is always better, provided that appropriate expansion and penetration also take place.
The plural of anecdotes is not data.
I worked in biomedical research for over a year before going back to school to make it permanently my vocation and we as a community have dispelled a LOT of rumors about the way that the body works. We do so by putting them to the test in a controlled environment and by isolating otherwise unseen mechanisms that before were just guessed at.
Quite honestly the human mind is full of cognitive biases that incline us to go with X or Y based on not just flawed information but a flawed interpretation of said information. This is why we have the scientific process - it counteracts our normal biases and forces us to examine with as much rationality as we can muster the facts as they stand.
I am not yet an MD but I can tell you with absolute confidence that there is very little that will cause someone to just "stop in their tracks" as many purport .357SIG should. There is nothing magic about it - it's a 9mm bullet going 1-200 FPS faster than most equivalent 9mm loads, if that. It will put the same 9mm hole in the very same organs that 9mm will, it just might take a fraction of a second less to reach the target, and it might perform vaguely differently across barriers.
I am not LE nor do I have special qualifications or any kind (well outside of a shit-ton of schooling) but my uncle was LE and his only force on force encounter ended with a single 9mm Hydrashok from his duty Beretta. Based on that, I should sell my Glocks and dump my Gold Dots for a 92FS stoked with Hydrashoks!
You should take the things you hear and believe with a grain of salt, no matter who they are from or what you are inclined to believe. Gel isn't people but it's damn close and it certainly can't lie to you like you (or anyone) can lie to yourself.
The plural of anecdotes is not data.
I worked in biomedical research for over a year before going back to school to make it permanently my vocation and we as a community have dispelled a LOT of rumors about the way that the body works. We do so by putting them to the test in a controlled environment and by isolating otherwise unseen mechanisms that before were just guessed at.
Quite honestly the human mind is full of cognitive biases that incline us to go with X or Y based on not just flawed information but a flawed interpretation of said information. This is why we have the scientific process - it counteracts our normal biases and forces us to examine with as much rationality as we can muster the facts as they stand.
I am not yet an MD but I can tell you with absolute confidence that there is very little that will cause someone to just "stop in their tracks" as many purport .357SIG should. There is nothing magic about it - it's a 9mm bullet going 1-200 FPS faster than most equivalent 9mm loads, if that. It will put the same 9mm hole in the very same organs that 9mm will, it just might take a fraction of a second less to reach the target, and it might perform vaguely differently across barriers.
I am not LE nor do I have special qualifications or any kind (well outside of a shit-ton of schooling) but my uncle was LE and his only force on force encounter ended with a single 9mm Hydrashok from his duty Beretta. Based on that, I should sell my Glocks and dump my Gold Dots for a 92FS stoked with Hydrashoks!
You should take the things you hear and believe with a grain of salt, no matter who they are from or what you are inclined to believe. Gel isn't people but it's damn close and it certainly can't lie to you like you (or anyone) can lie to yourself.
While I agree with you, I simply answered the OP to the best of my ability based on what I have been told. I never sold it as fact, only a factual description of what people from the field are saying.
I can think of no way to argue against the points you make from a medical or scientific standpoint. You poke a hole in something, you poke a hole in it. That's that.
All I know is more energy is always better, provided that appropriate expansion and penetration also take place.
The more energy concept is EXACTLY why the Dr. Fackler, the IWBA, and other ballistics experts did all their research into the matter. Why, because there was so much misguided assumptions out there from Thomson & LaGarde to Mashall and Sanow. All previous research into ballistics was based on observing a few shootings, and without examining the corpse or doing any follow up research, conclusions were made on half-assed assumptions.
What Fackler, and those who have followed his model did, was put science into the equation. They started in the operating room and the morgue. Corpses were analyzed, surgery was performed on patients with GSW, and shooting victims were interviewed to determine what their experience was like. After that, a repeatable, scientific approach to ammunition testing was invented which is the ballistic gel test. What Fackler and his associates discovered was that human body is strong, and elastic. It is capable of taking a lot of punishment and strugging it off......particularly if mind altering drugs are in the person's system, or they are pumped up on adrenaline. Energy does have an effect on the human body, but it must reach a certain level before it effects the temporary cavity stretch enough to cause damage and incapacitating effects beyond the actual permanent cavity wound itself. What Fackler determined was that energy levels needed to be in the realm of a rifle caliber in order for the temporary cavity to be damaged and effect surround tissue enough to have any effect. So, think hot .44 magnum loads as a minimum.
The .357 magnum stopping power myth is still in full force by the ignorant. In the old days of early hollow points, ammunition manufacturers tested their loads in water tanks. All their calibers worked fine in "water"(except that they could not test penetration which is the critical element to handgun lethality) Clearly, the human body is not composed of 100% water. So when this ammunition was used in the field sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. The .357magnum's velocity allowed it to open up more reliably in tissue than slower velocity calibers and have deep penetration with its good sectional density. The failures of other, lower velocity calibers in the field were a direct result of ammunition manufacturers testing their ammo in water tanks which resulted in unreliable expansion in the field, and under penetration. A perfect example of this is when agent Jerry Dove fired a 9mm 115gr Silver Tip into Michael Platt and the shallow penetration of the load resulted in the deaths of two agents. Later it was determined through ballistic get testing that this load had poor expansion characteristics and shallow penetration of only about 9". The .357magnum was a solution to the poor ammunition designs of the past. Today, this problem no longer exists. This is why after the 1990s very few agencies use .357sig/mag, and are very happy with the results of the 9mm, .40, and .45.
The .357sig crowd has still not gotten beyond half-assed assumptions of energy dump and discredited charlatans like M&S.
Please read what is behind the comma. Then explain to me how more energy is not better, once you take my statement as a whole.
Please read what is behind the comma. Then explain to me how more energy is not better, once you take my statement as a whole.
Extra energy forward, means extra energy rearward. The .357sig uses a 9mm length action which is relatively short. Calibers such as the .38 Super or 9x23 Win use a .45acp length action which absorbs the recoil forces over a longer cycle distance. The shorter the action, the more felt recoil, and the more abuse the pistol takes. In the Glock platform for example, most 9mm Glocks will approach 100k rounds before any major parts breakages. I work for the Department of Interior, and we were considering a transition to the .357sig in 2002. Five .357sig Glocks were used at FLETC until 2006 for testing. Out of the five, 4 of them had disabling parts failures before reaching 30k rounds. These failures were primarily frame failures, and cracking slides. Even the Glock .40s that have been tested went over 50k rounds without any failures.
The second problem with higher energy is slower recoil recovery. Shootings are dynamic and unpredictable. You move, they move. You miss, they miss. You are often forced to shoot from unstable shooting postions and grips. With these variables, shooting high recoiling calibers and loads becomes exponentially more difficult as you are forced to engage outside the comfort of a gun range and your normal routine. You will find very few, if any shooting professionals who recommend the .40 or .357sig as an optimal defensive platform. Being a cop myself, I'll tell you right now that few cops are what I consider to be "professional" shooters. That is shooters that are constantly challenging their skills outside of their comfort zones and seeking new experiences outside of the usual agency training circles. Most cops train around their qualification courses which are jokes.
Please read what is behind the comma. Then explain to me how more energy is not better, once you take my statement as a whole.Many people have a personal crusade against the .357 Sig and can't view it as another choice.
Of course if two bullets expand to a similar size and penetrate to a similar depth, the one going faster is at least going to be just as effective as the slower one.
Extra energy forward, means extra energy rearward. The .357sig uses a 9mm length action which is relatively short. Calibers such as the .38 Super or 9x23 Win use a .45acp length action which absorbs the recoil forces over a longer cycle distance. I find that irrelevant. A 357SIG chambered Glock is going to have a quicker recovery time than a 9mm 1911 in my experience. You are leaving out grip-angle, frame flex, and a TON of other variables. It's like saying "Car A has 400hp and weighs 3800# and car B has 390hp and weighs 3800#. Well you left out that car B is on slicks and has a 4.88 rear-end and a TH400 with a 5,000rpm stall converter and the other has a peg-leg 2.73 and a 5-speed manual. Which one do YOU think will win? See? You are leaving out relevant data and focusing only on...action length? The shorter the action, the more felt recoil, and the more abuse the pistol takes. In the Glock platform for example, most 9mm Glocks will approach 100k rounds before any major parts breakages. I work for the Department of Interior, and we were considering a transition to the .357sig in 2002. Five .357sig Glocks were used at FLETC until 2006 for testing. Out of the five, 4 of them had disabling parts failures before reaching 30k rounds. Now we are apples to apples, yes, a G32 will die before a G19, and it will kick harder. These failures were primarily frame failures, and cracking slides. Even the Glock .40s that have been tested went over 50k rounds without any failures.
You know how much30K rounds of 357SIG costs. Glocks don't have a soul. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The second problem with higher energy is slower recoil recovery. Shootings are dynamic and unpredictable. You move, they move. You miss, they miss. You are often forced to shoot from unstable shooting postions and grips. With these variables, shooting high recoiling calibers and loads becomes exponentially more difficult as you are forced to engage outside the comfort of a gun range and your normal routine. You will find very few, if any shooting professionals who recommend the .40 or .357sig as an optimal defensive platform. Okay, what about all the one's who are married to the .45? It's a choice. You buy what you like, and you train with it until you are proficient with it. I have seen Jerry Mikulek in person during his practice sessions out at Princeton dump 12 shots from 2 dual-wielded revolvers into a piece of printing paper at about 20 feet so fast it sounded like an MP5. Granted, I'm not him and I never will be, but I'm here to tell you that if you pick a platform and train, you will be proficient regardless of the caliber, and all will be well from a "recoil" standpoint. You have drawn the line at 9mm regarding recoil/power and where they cross. Others draw that line at .380, and others at .45ACP. It's personal and it depends on your own ability. Being a cop myself, I'll tell you right now that few cops are what I consider to be "professional" shooters. That is shooters that are constantly challenging their skills outside of their comfort zones and seeking new experiences outside of the usual agency training circles. Most cops train around their qualification courses which are jokes. From what I see at the range I agree.
The .40 creates more recoil impulse than the 357SIG. It sounds to me like you have just made your argument in the vein that anything that kicks harder than a 9mm is beyond the point of diminishing returns. I will respectfully disagree, while at the same time telling you that I believe a 9mm is more than sufficient for my needs. This doesn't mean to me that the 357SIG isn't good, too, or that it isn't more effective.
The 357SIG will penetrate more barrier material than the 9mm. I have shot enough car-doors and 2x6's and other junk to see first hand that it will do a LOT more to a barrier. According to MD Roberts, it does about the same in flesh as the 9mm. He knows more than I do, so I can't argue that in good faith. However, more energy=ability to do more work, and I have seen it first hand on barriers. More...is more.
Your argument that a G32 will die by 30K rounds is not important to me, as 30K rounds of 357SIG is a lot more than a new Glock.
Your argument about recoil is valid, and it's why we all need to practice to a level of proficiency with our chosen weapon systems until we are capable of delivering rapid, aimed fire in a variety of scenarios.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbg2s2bfjhw
Does this man need to trade his .45ACP for a 9mm? Is recoil impairing his ability to accurately fire multiple rounds in a short period of time? Or do you think he has trained to be proficient with his weapon of choice and is not appreciably handicapped by the recoil?
I don't know ,but from what I was told, it sounds like this is a culmination of information based on asking those who did the trigger-pulling.
Exactly. Its what you were told. The difference here is I can tell you, for instance, that a 9mm 124gr Speer GDHP will have virtually identical terminal performance as the .357sig 125gr Speer GDHP, but I can provide hard data, and pictures to back that up.
You are repeating what Mystery Man said. Again, I'm willing to believe Mystery Man exists, and that he is conducting his own study. That said, talking to the person pulling the trigger and not doing any follow up with EMS/EMT, hospital staff, or coroners isnt doing his work justice, but more a disservice. Time slows down when you are in a stress filled scenario. Those "10 dead mans seconds" may have been 2 in real life. The placement off the rounds may not have caused an immediate stop. Blood loss could have been mitigated by the wound. There are so many more things to do besides interviews with the person/people who pulled the triggers.
I never sold it as fact, only a factual description of what people from the field are saying.
Sure you did. You sold it it as information. Information is fact based, otherwise it wouldnt be information, but speculation.
I realize my argument is not scientific, but it is evidence based.
Evidence would be fact.
The problem is your argument is neither fact, scientific, or evidence. It is purely speculation.
Exactly. Its what you were told. The difference here is I can tell you, for instance, that a 9mm 124gr Speer GDHP will have virtually identical terminal performance as the .357sig 125gr Speer GDHP, but I can provide hard data, and pictures to back that up.
My guy said the same thing, you read that, yes?
You are repeating what Mystery Man said. Again, I'm willing to believe Mystery Man exists, and that he is conducting his own study. That said, talking to the person pulling the trigger and not doing any follow up with EMS/EMT, hospital staff, or coroners isnt doing his work justice, but more a disservice. Time slows down when you are in a stress filled scenario. Those "10 dead mans seconds" may have been 2 in real life. The placement off the rounds may not have caused an immediate stop. Blood loss could have been mitigated by the wound. There are so many more things to do besides interviews with the person/people who pulled the triggers.
I agree.
Sure you did. You sold it it as information. Information is fact based, otherwise it wouldnt be information, but speculation.
I sold nothing. I answered OP when they asked "Has anybody heard this?" and then posted what I had heard.
Evidence would be fact.
The problem is your argument is neither fact, scientific, or evidence. It is purely speculation.
I gave OP what they wanted. An answer to their original question: Yes, I have "heard this". I then explained that I agreed that there were things that you can't quantify with facts and figures but that trends have emerged from what the trigger-pullers are saying. Once again, I likened it to a religious devotion as such. You are trying to pretend that I have claimed it as fact, when instead I have simply provided what the OP asked for, along with my interpretation of such.
The meat of this topic is justifying the use of the .357sig as an alternative to other calibers. In professionally done ballistics testing such as those done by Dr. Roberts, the .357sig is almost identical in performance to the 9mm. The .357sig "might" have a slight edge in shooting through steel, but it is an average performer in all other areas.
So, since it is similar to the 9mm in performance, I will use the 9mm as a comparison. The .357sig has less magazine capacity than the 9mm, it has more felt recoil, the pistol either uses a heavier recoil spring and/or slide which reduces handling, and it is much more abusive to your pistol increasing the odds of a broken part during a firefight. The benefits of using .357sig over 9mm?.......just a heart felt assumption that the additional kinetic energy "does something" to make it more effective even though decades of scientific research say the opposite.
Heavy Metal
10-05-11, 19:38
OK, I got a .357 SIG question:
Why don't we see 147GR loadings in .357 SIG?
It seems to me this is where the extra case capacity would really shine!
Guys you have been very informative. As many say stories without actual scientific data is all that seems to be around. That's why I was trying to track down this "Texas DPS Document" that seems to show every service round other than the sig under penetrating against barriers even though independent tests such as Docs show the opposite.
OK, I got a .357 SIG question:
Why don't we see 147GR loadings in .357 SIG?
It seems to me this is where the extra case capacity would really shine!
Hornady offers a 147gr load. So does Double Tap, but from personal experience with their products I don't trust the ammunition. Federal used to make a 150gr load, but due to over pressure problems they discontinued the load. I used to own several .357sig pistols in the 1990s, and I noticed a lot of flattened primers with the 150gr load. Overall, the .357sig is like the 7.62x25 in that it is optimal with only a few bullet weights.....unlike straight walled cartridges which can use a much larger variety of bullet weights. If I wanted to have an auto cartridge that was similar to the .357magnum, the 9x23 Winchester is a much better design.
Guys you have been very informative. As many say stories without actual scientific data is all that seems to be around. That's why I was trying to track down this "Texas DPS Document" that seems to show every service round other than the sig under penetrating against barriers even though independent tests such as Docs show the opposite.
A LOT of gun talk on the internet is undocumented......even when people "claim" it is true. Unless you can find the document for yourself, or a credible person(by name) gives you the data, do not trust it. For instance, there is military/LE research on ballistics that is not released to the public(especially not the internet), but credible people like Dr. Roberts are willing give advice based on the research. He can't tell you the details, but he can steer you in the right direction. Such is the case with Dr. Roberts steering people away from the .357sig.
Nephrology
10-05-11, 20:43
The meat of this topic is justifying the use of the .357sig as an alternative to other calibers. In professionally done ballistics testing such as those done by Dr. Roberts, the .357sig is almost identical in performance to the 9mm. The .357sig "might" have a slight edge in shooting through steel, but it is an average performer in all other areas.
So, since it is similar to the 9mm in performance, I will use the 9mm as a comparison. The .357sig has less magazine capacity than the 9mm, it has more felt recoil, the pistol either uses a heavier recoil spring and/or slide which reduces handling, and it is much more abusive to your pistol increasing the odds of a broken part during a firefight. The benefits of using .357sig over 9mm?.......just a heart felt assumption that the additional kinetic energy "does something" to make it more effective even though decades of scientific research say the opposite.
Yeah, this. People often throw out the "with all else equal" qualifier. Yes, with all else equal .357 SIG is more powerful in some dimension that is unquantifiable and most likely totally irrelevant. With all else equal i'd like to to put a .50 BMG on my target too but you have to examine the tradeoff you are making.
9mm, .40 and .45 ACP represent 3 nearly equipotent points on derivative of our curve, with some things falling to the weaker side of things (.25 ACP, .380, etc) that had distinct advantages but fall short in the terminal ballistics category. others on the right (44 mag, 10mm, .500 S&W, and in my eyes .357 SIG) have too many disadvantages to bother carrying.
They include lots of things that have nothing to do with the steps between primer strike and bullet impact, like being able to afford practice ammo, select quality JHPs, find, maintain and carry a platform that will be size/weight appropriate, etc. Then there are yet others like recoil management, magazine capacity, muzzle blast and whatnot involved with shooting that become distinct disadvantages in the very act of shooting that might be inconvenient at other times as well - practicing, etc.
I don't think anybody here is disputing that .357 SIG will probably kill someone but for the price you pay in all senses of the word it offers marginal if any improvements over 9mm and the improvements that people vaunt it for are largely exaggerated and mostly anecdotal in nature.
Yeah, this. People often throw out the "with all else equal" qualifier. Yes, with all else equal .357 SIG is more powerful in some dimension that is unquantifiable and most likely totally irrelevant. With all else equal i'd like to to put a .50 BMG on my target too but you have to examine the tradeoff you are making.
9mm, .40 and .45 ACP represent 3 nearly equipotent points on derivative of our curve, with some things falling to the weaker side of things (.25 ACP, .380, etc) that had distinct advantages but fall short in the terminal ballistics category. others on the right (44 mag, 10mm, .500 S&W, and in my eyes .357 SIG) have too many disadvantages to bother carrying.
They include lots of things that have nothing to do with the steps between primer strike and bullet impact, like being able to afford practice ammo, select quality JHPs, find, maintain and carry a platform that will be size/weight appropriate, etc. Then there are yet others like recoil management, magazine capacity, muzzle blast and whatnot involved with shooting that become distinct disadvantages in the very act of shooting that might be inconvenient at other times as well - practicing, etc.
I don't think anybody here is disputing that .357 SIG will probably kill someone but for the price you pay in all senses of the word it offers marginal if any improvements over 9mm and the improvements that people vaunt it for are largely exaggerated and mostly anecdotal in nature.
Good summation, sir.
My former agency, one if the nation's largest, tested 9mm, .357 Sig, .40S&W, and 45 ACP extensively over the last 15 years or so at various times when new weapons were being considered. These tests were overseen by ballistics scientists from both government and private sector entities. We solicited information from dozens of agencies who had also conducted their own scientific testing. Some of which, Dr. Roberts helped to gather. After hearing the stories about the .357 Sig, it was included in some testing and we gathered data from across the US. We stuck with our issued Glock .40 S&W pistols and the option to individually purchase Glock .45 ACPs. The .357 Sig didn't measurably outperform what we were using and would have cost much more to feed even at bulk rates (We buy entire numbered lots of ammunition multiple times a year). To us, it was a solution in search of a problem. Our .40s have performed well in dozens of OIS incidents and barrier penetration has been consistent with our testing.
Good thread so far.
The meat of this topic is justifying the use of the .357sig as an alternative to other calibers. In professionally done ballistics testing such as those done by Dr. Roberts, the .357sig is almost identical in performance to the 9mm. The .357sig "might" have a slight edge in shooting through steel, but it is an average performer in all other areas.
So, since it is similar to the 9mm in performance, I will use the 9mm as a comparison. The .357sig has less magazine capacity than the 9mm, it has more felt recoil, the pistol either uses a heavier recoil spring and/or slide which reduces handling, and it is much more abusive to your pistol increasing the odds of a broken part during a firefight. The benefits of using .357sig over 9mm?.......just a heart felt assumption that the additional kinetic energy "does something" to make it more effective even though decades of scientific research say the opposite.
357SIG has penetrated better in EVERY medium I have shot with it as compared to 9mm. Car doors, building material, waterlogged phone-books, etc.
It definitely penetrates better.
A LOT of gun talk on the internet is undocumented......even when people "claim" it is true. Unless you can find the document for yourself, or a credible person(by name) gives you the data, do not trust it. For instance, there is military/LE research on ballistics that is not released to the public(especially not the internet), but credible people like Dr. Roberts are willing give advice based on the research. He can't tell you the details, but he can steer you in the right direction. Such is the case with Dr. Roberts steering people away from the .357sig.
The FBI data I have seen does indeed indicate the 357SIG penetrates 1-2" more than 9mm in nearly every medium comparing Gold Dot ammunition.
There are 2 flavors of GDHP in the 357SIG, the FBI load, and the TX DPS load. The TX DPS load penetrates 1.5-2" further than the FBI load. The FBI load I saw tested bested the 9mm by 0-1", thus standing to reason, the DPS load will indeed penetrate better.
Why would the US Secret Service choose the 357 Sig if it was no more effective than 9mm,45acp or 40 short&weak.
Why would the US Secret Service choose the 357 Sig if it was no more effective than 9mm,45acp or 40 short&weak.
A lot of things go into ammunition selection/weapon selection when you start getting into agency purchases. I would not use one agency or anothers purchase as justification for anything. Politics play a role as well.
357SIG has penetrated better in EVERY medium I have shot with it as compared to 9mm. Car doors, building material, waterlogged phone-books, etc.
It definitely penetrates better.
Glad to hear it. We don't use either of those rounds though. As stated, we continue to use .40 and .45, which give the kind of intermediate barrier penetration that most LE agencies are looking for. I'll repeat, there have been numerous scientific tests conducted by ballistics experts (like Dr Roberts) on .357 Sig and the results have shown that there is no significant difference in performance over the common 9mm duty munitions currently in use. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your scientific, reproduceable results. It's the .45 GAP of the 9mm class. A gimmick round from SIG. A company that seems to now be in the gimmick gun market too. With their gaudy colors and silly themed guns. Since the .40 offers better terminal performance in every regard, is fired from the same capacity magazine in Glocks, costs less, is more available and has a proven track record in OIS incidents, the choice iseems pretty clear to me.
Again, for what seems to be the umpteenth time in this thread: the .357 Sig will undoubtedly incapacitate a threat with proper shot placement. However, it's performance is not game changing and there are better offerings in an identical magazine capacity and gun size. There seems to be a lot of what Iraqgunz likes to call Post Gun Buyer Stress Disorder going on here. Someone bought a .357 Sig and will now plant a flag and die on a hill defending it.
Glad to hear it. We don't use either of those rounds though. As stated, we continue to use .40 and .45, which give the kind of intermediate barrier penetration that most LE agencies are looking for. I'll repeat, there have been numerous scientific tests conducted by ballistics experts (like Dr Roberts) on .357 Sig and the results have shown that there is no significant difference in performance over the common 9mm duty munitions currently in use. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your scientific, reproduceable results. It's the .45 GAP of the 9mm class. A gimmick round from SIG. A company that seems to now be in the gimmick gun market too. With their gaudy colors and silly themed guns. Since the .40 offers better terminal performance in every regard, is fired from the same capacity magazine in Glocks, costs less, is more available and has a proven track record in OIS incidents, the choice iseems pretty clear to me.
Again, for what seems to be the umpteenth time in this thread: the .357 Sig will undoubtedly incapacitate a threat with proper shot placement. However, it's performance is not game changing and there are better offerings in an identical magazine capacity and gun size. There seems to be a lot of what Iraqgunz likes to call Post Gun Buyer Stress Disorder going on here. Someone bought a .357 Sig and will now plant a flag and die on a hill defending it.
My point yet remains: OP mentioned something I had experience with, and I stated what I knew of it.
As to the 357SIG, it's my favorite range gun. I love the blasty signature of the round, and my P226 will put 5 gold-dots into a group just a hair over an inch across at 25 yards. When I shoot produce and other junk with it, it blows it apart very graphically, even with FMJ's.
I love the round for the range/shooting stuff.
As to what I carry? 9mm does just fine.
Indeed. VERY, VERY few officers actually ever have to shoot anyone with their service pistol(1 in 100+). Those that do, it is often a once in a lifetime occurance and what wins or loses the day is the officer's tactics and skill.......rarely the caliber.
I think your less than 1 in 100+ assertion is too broad. During my career at a 90+ man department in a relatively lower crime suburb of Los Angeles, at any given point in time, roughly 10% of the officers had fired shots in anger.
My point yet remains: OP mentioned something I had experience with, and I stated what I knew of it.
You know of a supposed report by a man that doesnt want to put his name to it, that doesnt want to release it for peer review, and that is of, at this point, dubious value.
Okie dokie!;)
There are 2 flavors of GDHP in the 357SIG, the FBI load, and the TX DPS load. The TX DPS load penetrates 1.5-2" further than the FBI load. The FBI load I saw tested bested the 9mm by 0-1", thus standing to reason, the DPS load will indeed penetrate better.
The 54234 "TXDPS Load" isnt anything special. It sacrifices expansion to get extra penetration. Its RD is between .50-.55 according to ATKs own data.
Now, keep in mind a few things. TXDPS's first carry load were the miserable 124gr Speer GDHPs. Then they switched to the purpose built original 125gr Speer GDHP. Now they use a different version which reduces expansion to offer deeper penetration. 15 years of using the .357sig and they have gone through 3 different versions.
I have been in my local cop shop (they have steals of deals on ammo) and have seen TXDPS personnel buying 53918 off the shelves. I have also seen two different Troopers enter the shop at the sametime, and while BS'ing about ammo, found that they were both carrying the two different versions of the 125gr Speer GDHP.
That either means they carry .357sig as long as its Gold Dot, or simply [Russian Billionaire]Logistics. They dont has it.[/Russian Billionaire]
I think your less than 1 in 100+ assertion is too broad. During my career at a 90+ man department in a relatively lower crime suburb of Los Angeles, at any given point in time, roughly 10% of the officers had fired shots in anger.
I worked in a 16 man squad in tne Bronx and 13 officers actually shot men and 10 shot mutiple men.
The 54234 "TXDPS Load" isnt anything special. It sacrifices expansion to get extra penetration. Its RD is between .50-.55 according to ATKs own data.
Now, keep in mind a few things. TXDPS's first carry load were the miserable 124gr Speer GDHPs. Then they switched to the purpose built original 125gr Speer GDHP. Now they use a different version which reduces expansion to offer deeper penetration. 15 years of using the .357sig and they have gone through 3 different versions.
I have been in my local cop shop (they have steals of deals on ammo) and have seen TXDPS personnel buying 53918 off the shelves. I have also seen two different Troopers enter the shop at the sametime, and while BS'ing about ammo, found that they were both carrying the two different versions of the 125gr Speer GDHP.
That either means they carry .357sig as long as its Gold Dot, or simply [Russian Billionaire]Logistics. They dont has it.[/Russian Billionaire]
Correct regarding the projectile. It also is loaded with 0.2gr more powder and is on average 25fps faster than 53918. Still--nothing really "special" as you put it. It does shoot 1" 5-shot groups at 25 yards out of my pistol off a sand-bag, though.
I would not put much stock in what cops are buying. I have met cops who didn't know the type of ammo (Gold Dot, Ranger T, what?) issued by their department. I have even met one state trooper who didn't even know the caliber of his side-arm. Some cops are gun-guys, some are not.
Correct regarding the projectile. It also is loaded with 0.2gr more powder and is on average 25fps faster than 53918. Still--nothing really "special" as you put it. It does shoot 1" 5-shot groups at 25 yards out of my pistol off a sand-bag, though.
I would not put much stock in what cops are buying. I have met cops who didn't know the type of ammo (Gold Dot, Ranger T, what?) issued by their department. I have even met one state trooper who didn't even know the caliber of his side-arm. Some cops are gun-guys, some are not.
But you'll put faith in a "report" that has more holes in it than Bonnie and Clyde's Ford.
BTW, these guys were gun guys. Knew their caliber, brand of ammunition, grain weight, etc.
Wrinkles--go right to the ammo manufacturer's own data; do you see any dramatic superiority or even a slight advantage with 357 Sig compared to other calibers?
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/EFMJBrochure.pdf
Good post.
But you'll put faith in a "report" that has more holes in it than Bonnie and Clyde's Ford.
BTW, these guys were gun guys. Knew their caliber, brand of ammunition, grain weight, etc.
I don't care about the report, really. My range guns are selected because I enjoy shooting them, not based on terminal ballistics. I have no doubt it will put a hole in some paper.
Then why the continued arguing back and forth? You have been shown other information and yet you want to keep defending it.
I don't care about the report, really. My range guns are selected because I enjoy shooting them, not based on terminal ballistics. I have no doubt it will put a hole in some paper.
You know of a supposed report by a man that doesnt want to put his name to it, that doesnt want to release it for peer review, and that is of, at this point, dubious value.
Okie dokie!;)
Read this "article" and this guy clearly seems to be a One Shot Stop fan but he mentioned something about Texas DPS articles. Has anybody heard this?
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
It would appear that yes, I did answer OP's question 100%. I had heard of it, I posted what I knew. I never said it was great, repeatable, irrefutable intel.
Then why the continued arguing back and forth? You have been shown other information and yet you want to keep defending it.
Because I think there is some merit to it, I just choose to rely on a 9mm because I know it works just fine and for many other reasons (capacity, blast, etc.)
Why would the US Secret Service choose the 357 Sig if it was no more effective than 9mm,45acp or 40 short&weak.
Maybe the same reason they adopted the FN P90's.
Nephrology
10-15-11, 08:07
Maybe the same reason they adopted the FN P90's.
Budget size and common sense typically share an inverse relationship.
Maybe the same reason they adopted the FN P90's.
I think the P90 was a decent enough choice. IT's small, accurate, controllable, and there will be a lot of them in play if they are ever used.
Totally different dynamics from a 1-man army with a semi-auto version. I think they picked it with body-armor in mind.
What interests me about the .357 Sig, because of where I live, is the possibility that it would do a better job than 9, 40 or 45 in penetrating an animal's skull. I have searched and have had trouble finding data, beyond an anecdotal report that an Alaskan trooper shot a deceased grizzly's skull with a .40 and .357 Sig, and the Sig penetrated the skull where the .40 JHP did not. The manufacturer data looks good on penetrating metal, but I didn't see a grizzly or moose skull in any of the mediums tested. :)
What interests me about the .357 Sig, because of where I live, is the possibility that it would do a better job than 9, 40 or 45 in penetrating an animal's skull. I have searched and have had trouble finding data, beyond an anecdotal report that an Alaskan trooper shot a deceased grizzly's skull with a .40 and .357 Sig, and the Sig penetrated the skull where the .40 JHP did not. The manufacturer data looks good on penetrating metal, but I didn't see a grizzly or moose skull in any of the mediums tested. :)
I understand that you're primarily addressing a concealed carry gun, but I'd like to suggest that if your likely engagement scenarios include large carnivores or other dangerous and hard to kill wildlife, you'd be best served strapping on something considerably more powerful than .357 Sig or .40 S&W when headed into places where those animals might be encountered. In fact, how about a .45-70 truck gun? I know that packing a .44 mag around is not always practicable, but if you must have an auto pistol, I'd suggest a 10mm loaded with something heavy.
I always have my G-19, but when I head into the back country scouting for elk or bear, I exchange it for a Marlin .45-70 and a Redhawk .45 Colt. Likewise for fishing. I load the rifle with 400gr. Barnes Buster projectiles at ~1970fps and the handgun with 325gr. flat nose hard cast rounds at ~1350 fps. Both have been used to kill or finish off large game and they have never once failed to perform. I'd suggest carrying an appropriate caliber and weapon for the engagement scenarios you are likely to encounter.
I have searched and have had trouble finding data, beyond an anecdotal report that an Alaskan trooper shot a deceased grizzly's skull with a .40 and .357 Sig, and the Sig penetrated the skull where the .40 JHP did not.
That was Alaskapopo, and I believe it was an elk skull as bear skulls are not that common.
The .357sig is "better" at punching through a hard barrier like a skull....but only marginally better than a 9mm+P loading. However, we're talking about target practice against a target that is not moving, and one that you've lined up the angle of the skull so that you can get the best penetration possible. The .357sig is also a "light and fast" caliber in that its projectile looses considerable momentum as it penetrates flesh. Even though the .357sig and .45acp penetrate to similar levels in tissue, the higher momentum of the .45acp does much better at punching through internal bone structure. Dr. Lane tested this effect in the early 1990s with 9mm projectiles and .45acp projectiles by inserting a femur into ballistic gel. All the 9mm projectiles struck the femur and the best loads only cracked the femur. The .45acp punched all the way through the femur and exited the leg completely. The 1994 Canadian study also proved that heavier calibers do better with internal bones.
Virtually all large animal skulls are sloped from the front, it moves around a lot when the animal charges, and the area in which you can get a decent frontal shot on is tiny......only about 10% of the animal's mass. If there is a time when you should go with a large, magnum level caliber it is in dealing with dangerous predators. Hunting is a different story because you can usually pick and choose where you shoot the animal. You need something large enough with enough momentum to cause significant tissue damage, have the ability to punch through internal bone structure, and penetrate deeply enough to travel the length of the predator. A good example of what to use would be what African predator hunters have used for over a century. Usually .40-.60 caliber projectiles with very high mass, and moderate velocity.
Against a bear, I wouldn't use anything less than a .44magnum with 300gr Hornady XTPs. If and only "if" I had to shoot a bear with a service size pistol caliber, I would use 10mm with 200gr loads or .45super. However, given the extreme effectiveness of modern bear spray, I'd rather carry a can of that and use a standard service pistol for defense against people.
My background. Live in Alaska, hunt bears each years, have harvested multiple grizzly bears, taken Gunsite's bear course twice, carry a 14 inch 870 or Guide Gun and Smith 329 all summer, carried an 870 this summer over 100 miles in the field, generally carry a 10 when not the Smith Scandium .44, serious handgun shooter -- just headed back to the Rogers School in GA again end of the month. Also had an encounter with a sow and two cubs, that required a shot to be fired as recently as September, and was charged by a cow moose in deep snow last January.
I know that it is not a first choice, and I have many better choices, BUT what I want to know is whether a bonded bullet out of a .357 Sig placed to the upper CNS on a grizzly will penetrate the skull.
In the right spot, yes, but then so will a .40 180 gr; in the wrong spot, neither will work very well...
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