View Full Version : Mk318 vs 5.56 75gr TAP
vicious_cb
10-06-11, 22:29
If barriers are not an issue, which round has better performance against unobstructed targets? Ive heard this mentioned before that Mk318 isnt yaw dependent, if so wouldnt Mk318 be a much better choice than the heavy OTMs since they will be able to fragment at much lower velocities?
Let's be clear on exactly what "Not yaw dependent" means; this refers specifically to projectiles that do not suffer from AOA issues or fleet yaw problems as is common with loads such as M193 and M855. Rifle loads that tend not to be yaw dependent include TBBC, Win Bonded, CLUB, Gold Dot, Partition, TSX, SOST, etc...
For unobstructed targets, both the loads specified will likely produce similar results--I would be OK using either one in that situation, although for general purpose use, I'd prefer one of the loads listed in the second paragraph here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
It seems that most people looking for a non barrier-blind load will be using their rifle in a defensive capacity in, or around their home in heavily populated areas. In these scenarios it would a seem to me that the reduced lethality (vs. Pistol loads, or barrier-blind .223/5.56) of heavy OTM loads after passing through intermediate barriers is an asset rather than a liability.
It would however make sense to keep a barrier-blind load available for special circumstances in marked, or different type/capacity magazines in the event additional penetration is needed.
DOC answered the question, but my question is, how do you know that you won't have any barriers between you and the target?
I wish I had a crystal ball when it come to this stuff, but I don't. So I use barrier blind rounds.
C4
DOC answered the question, but my question is, how do you know that you won't have any barriers between you and the target?
I wish I had a crystal ball when it come to this stuff, but I don't. So I use barrier blind rounds.
C4
In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries
I don't see how home defense differs from an LE urban entry. Most civilians have no need to shoot into vehicles with their AR-15s which is where bonded loads have a distinct advantage over OTMs. I also firmly believe that a fragmenting OTM will cause more soft tissue damage than a bonded bullet that expands, and retains most of its weight. This is critical inside the home where the threat is possibly only feet away.
I am aware of a couple LE entry situations the last several years where fragmenting .223 projectiles failed to incapacitate suspects who were behind walls, furniture, and other cover while shooting at LE officers. In those situations, I suspect barrier blind projectiles would have given officers an advantage at ending the fight...
That is definetly a good point. In shootings involving bonded JSP .223/5.56 have you noted whether the projectiles typically exit the subject? I understand overpenetration is far less of a concern than outright misses, but assuming good shot placement how much of a threat do exiting projectiles pose to people in adjacent rooms?
Most of the time the .223/5.56 mm barrier blind bullets are staying in the felons...when they do exit, the projectiles generally are non-aerodynamic in shape and traveling fairly slowly, so they tend to bounce off nearby walls.
That is very good to know. Thank you very much sir.
Hawkeye M6A3
10-11-11, 18:56
I was going to make a new thread, but I think my post will somewhat add to this discussion.
Based on Dr. Robert's (among others) research, I've come to the conclusion that the Hornady 75gr TAP BTHP is among the best loads for use in "urban entries" and HD, but I'd like to know whether or not it is a good choice in an apartment complex where your neighbors are only a few inches away from you.
Yes, I know, "Don't miss," is the obvious response, and I don't PLAN to miss. We all should know what happens to plans, even the best laid plans, once contact is made with the enemy, however. And yes, I'm doing as much training as I can possibly afford, which includes three carbine training courses within the next two months along with range time at least once a week. (I only recently purchased my first carbine, an LWRC M6A3, so my Glock 22 is still my primary HD weapon until I'm comfortable enough with the carbine).
What I need to know is this: Would I better off with a load like the 75gr TAP BTHP, or would a load like the 60gr Hornady Rem TAP Urban, which I believe uses a VMAX bullet, work better under these circumstances (or any circumstances for that matter)?
Basically, is my worry that a once in a blue moon miss with a 75gr TAP round would penetrate a dividing wall and wound a neighbor justified or not?
Yes, I know, "Don't miss," but this question remains important, as, "To err is human."
What leads you to believe the 60 gr PT would be less "dangerous" in the event of a miss indoors compared to the 75 gr OTM?
Hawkeye M6A3
10-11-11, 20:01
What leads you to believe the 60 gr PT would be less "dangerous" in the event of a miss indoors compared to the 75 gr OTM?
That's what I was hoping someone would address as I'm afraid I'm quite out of my league when it comes to all the different types of rifle ammunition.
Where I am most confused is here:
When I think of hollow points, I think of the Federal HST 180gr .40 S&W load I CCW in my Glock, and that load is known for doing well through intermediate barriers and for weight retention.
In the case of the 75gr TAP hollow point, however, it seems the idea is to have ideal penetration and near total fragmentation which seems like a good idea when wanting to limit penetration through barriers and humans, but it stands in stark contrast a heavy handgun hollow point.
That leads me here: what exactly is the difference between the 75gr TAP OTM, and the 40gr, 55gr and 60gr TAP Urban loads? When I look at the ballistics on Hornady's LE website, it appears that the 60gr TAP Urban and 75gr TAP are very similar, with the 60gr TAP offering a bit less penetration.
For unobstructed targets, both the loads specified will likely produce similar results--I would be OK using either one in that situation, although for general purpose use, I'd prefer one of the loads listed in the second paragraph here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Doc,
Out of the loads you listed in the second paragraph (5.56 OR .223), which ones are:
a) Readily available to the public
b) Accurate for a precision type application (MOA accuracy for 4-500m and in)
These kind of need to be mutually inclusive since the accuracy won't matter to me if it is unobtainium...I'm thinking the .223 Speer Gold Dot would be it? No? What would be your choice...maybe a top 3?
I have TAP T2 on hand, and the only reason I would keep it for a precision application is because it is so accurate, but if there is a BB load that is at least MOA accurate, I might make a switch.
What leads you to believe the 60 gr PT would be less "dangerous" in the event of a miss indoors compared to the 75 gr OTM?
The T2 that I have on hand is also for HD situations, but it sounds like a miss with T2 would be just as lethal as a miss with a barrier blind load if fired in an HD situation (regardless if there was a barrier involved...such as a wall or furniture)? Can you explain why this would be? Has modern BB loads surpassed the need to have TAP T2 for CQB, HD, room clearing, ect.?
I am aware of a couple LE entry situations the last several years where fragmenting .223 projectiles failed to incapacitate suspects who were behind walls, furniture, and other cover while shooting at LE officers. In those situations, I suspect barrier blind projectiles would have given officers an advantage at ending the fight...
One such case I read about on here a while back (while=1+ years) was an unfortunate officer who dumped 30 rounds of 55gr BST into either a door or windshield of a vehicle (forget which) and was then shot/killed by the perp as his projectiles did absolutely nothing beyond the barrier.
Most of the time the .223/5.56 mm barrier blind bullets are staying in the felons...when they do exit, the projectiles generally are non-aerodynamic in shape and traveling fairly slowly, so they tend to bounce off nearby walls.
What can you tell us about how the new MK318 SOST ammo is doing? I have only read one online account of its usage in the field and the person who inspected the bodies was not too impressed.
What can you tell us about how the new MK318 SOST ammo is doing? I have only read one online account of its usage in the field and the person who inspected the bodies was not too impressed.
Not trying to be a smartA$$, but if there were bodies to inspect, I would say the MK318s did their job quite well.
I don't see how home defense differs from an LE urban entry. Most civilians have no need to shoot into vehicles with their AR-15s which is where bonded loads have a distinct advantage over OTMs. I also firmly believe that a fragmenting OTM will cause more soft tissue damage than a bonded bullet that expands, and retains most of its weight. This is critical inside the home where the threat is possibly only feet away.
If I am inside my home and someone is on the outside shooting at me, I will be shooting through glass (FYI).
AR's don't just belong in HD. They can be in your vehicle, property defense, etc.
So it is better to have a bullet that does everything than one that just does somethings.
C4
Not trying to be a smartA$$, but if there were bodies to inspect, I would say the MK318s did their job quite well.
The same could be said for the .22lr in some cases.
Doc,
Out of the loads you listed in the second paragraph (5.56 OR .223), which ones are:
a) Readily available to the public
b) Accurate for a precision type application (MOA accuracy for 4-500m and in)
These kind of need to be mutually inclusive since the accuracy won't matter to me if it is unobtainium...I'm thinking the .223 Speer Gold Dot would be it? No? What would be your choice...maybe a top 3?
I have TAP T2 on hand, and the only reason I would keep it for a precision application is because it is so accurate, but if there is a BB load that is at least MOA accurate, I might make a switch.
Not Doc, but will answer question 1 from a dealer standpoint.
5.56
The SPEER 24455 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24455), BH D556N1 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=D556N1) and Hornady 8125N (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8125N).
The SPEER 24455 is actually a rare bird and we are lucky to have found some of it. The BH D556N1 is easily obtained, but DAMN if isn't expensive as is the 8125N.
.223
The SPEER 24448 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24448), Federal T1 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE223T1) and T3 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE223T3).
The Federal T1/T3 are great loads, but are very hard to get ahold of and are expensive. The SPEER 24448 is pretty easy to acquire and is priced well I think.
C4
Ther Speer ammunition that Grant mentions, The SPEER 24448 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...tion&key=24448), seems to keep popping up in everyones recommendations. It is relatively inexpensive compared to everything else. The SOST round is also priced competitively with the Speer round. Taking all of that into consideration I've been stocking up on the Speer ammunition since it is so readily available.
As far as BB vs non BB in a Hd situation and worrying about over penetration as others have said it basically isn't an issue. Over penetration that is. I would rather have BB ammunition and not need it than possibly need it an not have it.
Team Chuck Norris
10-14-11, 11:12
Not Doc, but will answer question 1 from a dealer standpoint.
5.56
The SPEER 24455 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24455), BH D556N1 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=D556N1) and Hornady 8125N (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8125N).
The SPEER 24455 is actually a rare bird and we are lucky to have found some of it. The BH D556N1 is easily obtained, but DAMN if isn't expensive as is the 8125N.
.223
The SPEER 24448 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24448), Federal T1 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE223T1) and T3 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE223T3).
The Federal T1/T3 are great loads, but are very hard to get ahold of and are expensive. The SPEER 24448 is pretty easy to acquire and is priced well I think.
C4
Thank you for this answer. Can you/anyone answer the following:
1. Is the Hornady LE T2 TAP 75gr 556 NATO ( 8126N ) round
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8126N&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DHORN
considered a "barrier blind" round? I see that the 62 gr. TAP 5.56 round specifically speaks to its ability to pass through barriers, but is this the case with the 75 gr 5.56 TAP as well?
2. I would guess that the Federal Tactical Bonded 62gr .223 Bonded SP ( LE223T3 ) is not the same as the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3), but is the latter available at all? I have never seen it listed anywhere. Is it a special order item anywhere? I see it listed as a recommended round in the 5.56 mm Duty Loads sticky, but does it actually exist?
It would seem that at this time the only 5.56 (not .223) barrier blind round which is readily available - to the civilian market - and at semi-reasonable prices - would be the Mk318.
Thank you for this answer. Can you/anyone answer the following:
1. Is the Hornady LE T2 TAP 75gr 556 NATO ( 8126N ) round considered a "barrier blind" round? I see that the 62 gr. TAP 5.56 round specifically speaks to its ability to pass through barriers, but is this the case with the 75 gr 5.56 TAP as well?
In the past it wasn't (more like M855), but they have re-designed it to be a barrier blind round.
Regular TAP (55gr or 75gr) is going to fragment and not work well with certain barriers.
2. I would guess that the Federal Tactical Bonded 62gr .223 Bonded SP ( LE223T3 ) is not the same as the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3), but is the latter available at all? I have never seen it listed anywhere. Is it a special order item anywhere? I see it listed as a recommended round in the 5.56 mm Duty Loads sticky, but does it actually exist?
I have never been able to track down the TBBC or XM556FBIT3) and don't know if they are still produced. So IMHO, it would be hard to get on the Civy side.
It would seem that at this time the only 5.56 (not .223) barrier blind round which is readily available - to the civilian market - and at semi-reasonable prices - would be the Mk318.
The SPEER 24455 is a 5.56 and is pretty well priced and will perform better in accuracy tests than the MK318 (IMHO).
C4
Belmont31R
10-14-11, 12:52
Is there an advantage to the 24455 (55 GDSP) load to the 24456 (64 GDSP)? Both in 5.56....
Is there an advantage to the 24455 (55 GDSP) load to the 24456 (64 GDSP)? Both in 5.56....
I don't think so. Also, the 24456 is basically vaporware.
C4
Is there an advantage to the 24455 (55 GDSP) load to the 24456 (64 GDSP)? Both in 5.56....
Most likely the 55gr load was produced for the large number of M16A1s still in service in many agencies.
Belmont31R
10-14-11, 13:40
I don't think so. Also, the 24456 is basically vaporware.
C4
Most likely the 55gr load was produced for the large number of M16A1s still in service in many agencies.
Hmm. Local store has had some in the past. Going today anyways so Ill see what they have. Didn't know it was hard to get.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/98a0307d.jpg
Hmm. Local store has had some in the past. Going today anyways so Ill see what they have. Didn't know it was hard to get.
I have been trying to find it (as a dealer) for awhile. So if you have a local store with it, buy it (as long as it isn't rape).
C4
Belmont31R
10-14-11, 13:58
I have been trying to find it (as a dealer) for awhile. So if you have a local store with it, buy it (as long as it isn't rape).
C4
All their Speer GDSP 223/556 loads are under 20/box. Usually closer 15 IIRC.
FWIW worth relating to this thread I had rather large groups with Mk318 I tested in a couple different guns that are capable of much better accuracy. 3-4" at 100 was what I was getting with many other loads in the >1"-2" range.
All their Speer GDSP 223/556 loads are under 20/box. Usually closer 15 IIRC.
FWIW worth relating to this thread I had rather large groups with Mk318 I tested in a couple different guns that are capable of much better accuracy. 3-4" at 100 was what I was getting with many other loads in the >1"-2" range.
Was the MK318 loose or in boxes that looked like this:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/FEDERAL/T556TNB1.jpg
C4
Thanks for the reply Grant...definitely lays out some options.
Can you comment on the accuracy of the various loads and which you would use in a precision application for 4-500m and in?
Also, I guess I just need to boil the question about fragmenting vs barrier blind down to this: If I had an AR loaded up for home defense where I am 99% sure that I wouldn't have to shoot through a barrier any harder than a wall, what would I want it loaded with? Does the answer differ if in an apt vs a house? I guess I'm still not understanding the penetration/lethality capability of one round over the other in a circumstance such as a miss where there may be family in the room behind the bad guy...
Thanks again for all the info.
Thanks for the reply Grant...definitely lays out some options.
Can you comment on the accuracy of the various loads and which you would use in a precision application for 4-500m and in?
Also, I guess I just need to boil the question about fragmenting vs barrier blind down to this: If I had an AR loaded up for home defense where I am 99% sure that I wouldn't have to shoot through a barrier any harder than a wall, what would I want it loaded with? Does the answer differ if in an apt vs a house? I guess I'm still not understanding the penetration/lethality capability of one round over the other in a circumstance such as a miss where there may be family in the room behind the bad guy...
Thanks again for all the info.
I must admit that I have not shot any of the Federal T1/T3 loads nor the BH's or Hornady I mentioned.
The SPEER though performs very well at 100yds for me out of a Noveske barrel. I have not shot it past this distance though.
Buy a box and let us know. ;)
C4
Belmont31R
10-14-11, 14:55
Was the MK318 loose or in boxes that looked like this:
C4
They were in white 20rd boxes just like pictured.
They were in white 20rd boxes just like pictured.
Hmm ok. The white box stuff is pretty good in regards to accuracy. The stuff that comes loose is questionable as to being rejected ammo.
C4
Team Chuck Norris
10-14-11, 16:32
Hmm ok. The white box stuff is pretty good in regards to accuracy. The stuff that comes loose is questionable as to being rejected ammo.
C4
I have a 50 cal. can with brown boxes of mk318. I have never been able to get a definitive answer as to the difference, if any, between the white box and brown box mk318. Some have guessed that the brown box is what the military gets and the white box is what the law enforcement community gets. Some have said that all mk318 on the market, regardless of box color, has been rejected by the military. Mine has no sticker on it, such as "not for duty use". I have never seen loose mk318 offered. I wonder if anyone actually knows for certain what the difference is between the box colors, if any, and whether or not any/all mk318 has been rejected by the military.
btw: I have done a number of searches and can only locate guesses and speculations. That is why I ask if anyone can provide a genuine answer to the above questions and have some foundation for their opinions.
A question--if you use the Gold Dots or any of the other jacketed soft point rounds don't you have to worry about lead build up on the feed ramp after 200-300 rounds as DocGKR has previously mentioned?
Thanks
Belmont31R
10-14-11, 17:19
Hmm ok. The white box stuff is pretty good in regards to accuracy. The stuff that comes loose is questionable as to being rejected ammo.
C4
FWIW Molon also got about the same accuracy maybe a little better. This was either very early this year or late last year. One of the first batches to come out if not the first. Its quite possible the stuff they have sold in the last 6 mos + is better.
A question--if you use the Gold Dots or any of the other jacketed soft point rounds don't you have to worry about lead build up on the feed ramp after 200-300 rounds as DocGKR has previously mentioned?
Thanks
Not that I have seen. It also really depends on the mag and whether it has anti-tilt follower or not.
C4
FWIW Molon also got about the same accuracy maybe a little better. This was either very early this year or late last year. One of the first batches to come out if not the first. Its quite possible the stuff they have sold in the last 6 mos + is better.
I am hearing that the newer stuff is doing much better.
C4
I must admit that I have not shot any of the Federal T1/T3 loads nor the BH's or Hornady I mentioned.
The SPEER though performs very well at 100yds for me out of a Noveske barrel. I have not shot it past this distance though.
Buy a box and let us know. ;)
C4
This might get expensive! :eek:
How do you think the SPEER would perform out to 4-500 yds? (being that its .223 pressure)
Basically I'm in a situation where I have more TAP T2 on hand than I really need, so I will either sell off some to fund a good barrier blind round for my longer range accuracy needs OR sell off all my TAP T2 and standardize (I do like consistency) with one barrier blind round for close in work or LR.
The only question that remains to be answered, and will make my decision, is whether a barrier blind round is more optimal than TAP T2 for HD/CQB? Is there more risk with a barrier blind round going through walls than there is with TAP T2? (simple yes or no from anyone who truly knows would suffice :D)
The potential risk of a typical barrier blind 5.56 mm/.223 load after going through an internal wall is somewhat greater than that for a fragmenting 5.56 mm/.223 bullet, but quite similar to that posed by most duty handgun projectiles. If you don't mind the risk of shooting a handgun or SMG indoors, then you shouldn't worry about using a barrier blind 5.56 mm/.223 load...
The 5.56 mm 70 gr TSX loadings are generally accurate at long range and relatively barrier blind. But for most uses out to 300 or even 500, any of the recommended barrier blind loadings that prove sufficiently accurate in your specific rifle should work fine...if not, one can always switch to a 6.8 mm upper or even a 16" .308 semi-auto.
The potential risk of a typical barrier blind 5.56 mm/.223 load after going through an internal wall is somewhat greater than that for a fragmenting 5.56 mm/.223 bullet, but quite similar to that posed by most duty handgun projectiles. If you don't mind the risk of shooting a handgun or SMG indoors, then you shouldn't worry about using a barrier blind 5.56 mm/.223 load...
The 5.56 mm 70 gr TSX loadings are generally accurate at long range and relatively barrier blind. But for most uses out to 300 or even 500, any of the recommended barrier blind loadings that prove sufficiently accurate in your specific rifle should work fine...if not, one can always switch to a 6.8 mm upper or even a 16" .308 semi-auto.
Thanks Doc for that very informative, to the point post. Exactly what I was looking for. Also, I read a thread last night about accuracy testing (by Molon) on the 62 grn TSX round, and he said it is more accurate than the 70 grn. Do you know if the 62 grn exhibits the sheared off "petals" like the 70 grn does through auto glass?
All of the TSX bullets we have tested do it to some degree or another, depending on velocity, angle of incidence to glass, type of glass, etc...
For those folks hunting larger animals or shooting longer range, the 70 gr TSX makes the most sense; for self-defense and LE shooting under 300 yards, hunting light to medium game under 200 lbs, or using shorter barrels the 50 gr TSX is probably the best.
vicious_cb
10-15-11, 23:50
This might get expensive! :eek:
How do you think the SPEER would perform out to 4-500 yds? (being that its .223 pressure)
Basically I'm in a situation where I have more TAP T2 on hand than I really need, so I will either sell off some to fund a good barrier blind round for my longer range accuracy needs OR sell off all my TAP T2 and standardize (I do like consistency) with one barrier blind round for close in work or LR.
The only question that remains to be answered, and will make my decision, is whether a barrier blind round is more optimal than TAP T2 for HD/CQB? Is there more risk with a barrier blind round going through walls than there is with TAP T2? (simple yes or no from anyone who truly knows would suffice :D)
Seems like cost and availability are a huge factor for you, the TSX loads are by far the most expensive stuff on the Doc's list while the new FBI loads are vaporware ATM while having no idea what kind of accuracy standard they are holding to.
I myself have a stockpile of 75gr OTM and looking to for a good barrier blind load to switch to that has the best combination of accuracy, performance, availability and cost.
The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading.
The new FBI BB loads have great performance but are not available while the TSX loads perform great and have excellent accuracy but are too expensive to buy enough of(atleast 1k).
Seems like cost and availability are a huge factor for you, the TSX loads are by far the most expensive stuff on the Doc's list while the new FBI loads are vaporware ATM while having no idea what kind of accuracy standard they are holding to.
I myself have a stockpile of 75gr OTM and looking to for a good barrier blind load to switch to that has the best combination of accuracy, performance, availability and cost.
The new FBI BB loads have great performance but are not available while the TSX loads perform great and have excellent accuracy but are too expensive to buy enough of(atleast 1k).
You are right...if I am going to have a stock of ammo, then it makes sense to try to find something that is relatively cheap...especially if you are on a college budget...
So, I ran some numbers last nigt, and found out that (not including shipping costs for the components) you can load 1000 rds of the 70gr TSX for $690 vs buying it from SSA for a total of $1391.50...that is a difference of $701.50! I'm pretty sure that even with shipping costs, just loading 1000 rds of this stuff will have already paid for the equipment...depending on what system I get...
I think this is the route I'll go...now just have to do some major homework in the reloading forum...
Doc,
Thanks for all the information, you are a wealth of knowledge and a valuable asset here on M4C!
This might be a little lengthy, but I just have one last question. If I wanted to standardize my ammo as much as possible between a 10.5" (for sub 200 yds) and a 16" Recce "light precision" rifle (for 4-500 yds and in, with the majority of shooting taking place sub 300 yds), would the 62gr TSX load be a good compromise between the two barrel lengths?
I ask because I know that you have said that out of SBR's, heavier barrier blind rounds are not necessarily better, and that you would recommend lighter loads.
I read somewhere that the velocity expansion threshold for 70 gr TSX is about 1800 fps (not sure how true that is). With a guestimated 2300-2400 fps out of a 10.5" barrel, that would get me an "effective range" of about 150-200 yds...so I'm not really sure why the above statement would be made? Can you explain?
If the above statement is true, am I on the right track standardizing with the 62gr? Or will 70gr work as well? I want to try to keep things as simple and consistent as possible.
Beyond 200-300 yds, most rifle bullets just yaw over without any deformation or fragmentation. A violent opponent with an AK47 is not as urgent a threat at 300 yds as he would be at 30 yds. The closer the target, the more crucial immediate incapacitation of the threat becomes. At 300 yds and beyond, just getting a hit on a moving target becomes a challenge, so at those ranges, accuracy becomes paramount; at closer distances, immediate incapacitation becomes the key factor.
For LE using an SBR, it is extremely unlikely to shoot at distances beyond 300 yds, in fact the vast majority of shots are under 100 yds--for those circumstances, a lighter 5.56 mm barrier blind load like the 50 gr TSX makes more sense than the 70 gr TSX, as the 50 gr TSX has better terminal performance characteristics for the expected engagement ranges. On the other hand, a military service member involved in OCONUS combat where the majority of their engagements occur at 300-600 yds would be better served with a heavier load with better long range accuracy potential like the 70 gr TSX or 77 gr Mk262 Mod 1. The mission requirements always drive the equipment choices--what works in one situation is not necessarily optimal for a different set of parameters.
If you want to go with one load for two diverging circumstances, you will have to decide what balance you want to create between best accuracy and maximum incapacitation potential. You will need to get several loads and shoot them from YOUR rifle, at the distances you plan on engaging and see which best meets YOUR needs. The cost benefit ratio must also be addressed. You may want load X because it meets 100% of your requirements, but you discover it is expensive and hard to acquire; load Z is 90% as effective, is readily available, and costs less than half what load X does--guess which one I am buying...
Once you find a load that works for your requirements, stop dwelling on ammo characteristics and spend your time and resources on training...
Beyond 200-300 yds, most rifle bullets just yaw over without any deformation or fragmentation. A violent opponent with an AK47 is not as urgent a threat at 300 yds as he would be at 30 yds. The closer the target, the more crucial immediate incapacitation of the threat becomes. At 300 yds and beyond, just getting a hit on a moving target becomes a challenge, so at those ranges, accuracy becomes paramount; at closer distances, immediate incapacitation becomes the key factor.
For LE using an SBR, it is extremely unlikely to shoot at distances beyond 300 yds, in fact the vast majority of shots are under 100 yds--for those circumstances, a lighter 5.56 mm barrier blind load like the 50 gr TSX makes more sense than the 70 gr TSX, as the 50 gr TSX has better terminal performance characteristics for the expected engagement ranges. On the other hand, a military service member involved in OCONUS combat where the majority of their engagements occur at 300-600 yds would be better served with a heavier load with better long range accuracy potential like the 70 gr TSX or 77 gr Mk262 Mod 1. The mission requirements always drive the equipment choices--what works in one situation is not necessarily optimal for a different set of parameters.
If you want to go with one load for two diverging circumstances, you will have to decide what balance you want to create between best accuracy and maximum incapacitation potential. You will need to get several loads and shoot them from YOUR rifle, at the distances you plan on engaging and see which best meets YOUR needs. The cost benefit ratio must also be addressed. You may want load X because it meets 100% of your requirements, but you discover it is expensive and hard to acquire; load Z is 90% as effective, is readily available, and costs less than half what load X does--guess which one I am buying...
Once you find a load that works for your requirements, stop dwelling on ammo characteristics and spend your time and resources on training...
Thanks Doc. That makes sense, I guess I just wasn't understanding that the 50gr TSX exhibits better terminal performance for shorter range than the 70gr TSX. Since they're both the same construction, I figured that either would perform the same.
I may start reloading, so the cost side of the cost/benefit ratio will reduce significantly.
As for your last sentence, at least for me, training is a given. I completely agree that the software is more important than the hardware, I just want to make sure I have both sides of the equation taken care of as much as I can control....
Thanks again!
The 50 gr TSX tends to penetrate in the ideal 12-18" range in most LE scenarios, while the 70 gr TSX tends to penetrate deeper than ideal.
You are right...if I am going to have a stock of ammo, then it makes sense to try to find something that is relatively cheap...especially if you are on a college budget...
So, I ran some numbers last nigt, and found out that (not including shipping costs for the components) you can load 1000 rds of the 70gr TSX for $690 vs buying it from SSA for a total of $1391.50...that is a difference of $701.50! I'm pretty sure that even with shipping costs, just loading 1000 rds of this stuff will have already paid for the equipment...depending on what system I get...
I think this is the route I'll go...now just have to do some major homework in the reloading forum...
This is of huge interest to me. I've been wanting to stock up on good defensive ammo but the costs are really high for most choices. I already hand load, currently hand loading about 99% of what I shoot in my AR's. I've loaded and shot thousands of rounds at this point, so I started thinking that loading my own might make sense for this purpose as well. I feel fairly confident that I can load defensive ammo and not suffer any failures due to my own doing...I've yet to so far and if I load this type of ammo I'll be putting a lot more into quality control.
I need to sit down and figure out what I can come up with. If I'm not going to load my own, I'll end up just buying a pile of mk318, mk262, and something with a bonded soft point design (I like standardization, but I also like having choices!)
Is there a comprehensive thread in the reloading forum about this topic? I did some searching and didn't really find anything. Maybe a thread focused on this would be good for those of us looking to take this on.
This is of huge interest to me. I've been wanting to stock up on good defensive ammo but the costs are really high for most choices. I already hand load, currently hand loading about 99% of what I shoot in my AR's. I've loaded and shot thousands of rounds at this point, so I started thinking that loading my own might make sense for this purpose as well. I feel fairly confident that I can load defensive ammo and not suffer any failures due to my own doing...I've yet to so far and if I load this type of ammo I'll be putting a lot more into quality control.
I need to sit down and figure out what I can come up with. If I'm not going to load my own, I'll end up just buying a pile of mk318, mk262, and something with a bonded soft point design (I like standardization, but I also like having choices!)
Is there a comprehensive thread in the reloading forum about this topic? I did some searching and didn't really find anything. Maybe a thread focused on this would be good for those of us looking to take this on.
I haven't searched the reloading forum thoroughly yet, but if I find anything I'll let you know. Numbers are "rough" but I think they're pretty accurate. Thats also not accounting for bulk pricing as well as cost of brass....which I can get access to as much brass as I could need, so I didn't include it. But regardless, it will be cheaper in the long run. Being that you are already reloading, you probably have already recovered the machine/equipment costs, so its a win/win for you!
i have read this whole thread and i cant find any answer to the op's question. how much are you giving up when using mk318 in unobstructed shots in comparison to 75g tap?`i like the idea of mk318 but doesn't 31 grains of fragmentation along with 31grains if caliber size penetration sound like mk318 is spreading itself a little thin? is it trying to do too much at once for only 62 grains?
Failure2Stop
11-02-11, 20:35
i have read this whole thread and i cant find any answer to the op's question. how much are you giving up when using mk318 in unobstructed shots in comparison to 75g tap?`i like the idea of mk318 but doesn't 31 grains of fragmentation along with 31grains if caliber size penetration sound like mk318 is spreading itself a little thin? is it trying to do too much at once for only 62 grains?
Do you mean 13 grains?
As in: 13 grains of difference between 62 gr and 75 gr?
Anyway, the 50 gr TSX does a very good job, despite the fact that it's 12 grains lighter than the Mk318.
Don't get too wrapped up in the weight of the bullet.
Do you mean 13 grains?
As in: 13 grains of difference between 62 gr and 75 gr?
Anyway, the 50 gr TSX does a very good job, despite the fact that it's 12 grains lighter than the Mk318.
Don't get too wrapped up in the weight of the bullet.
I think you misunderstood, with all due respect.
OP that you quoted was referencing the retained weight of the projectile, which appears to be 31-33gr and consists of the solid copper shank.
OP: No that is not "spreading it thin". A .22LR that does not deform will penetrate a good 12" or so. This MK318 round fragments violently in the first 1-12" of target, and the base is what remains. When it hits a windshield, the base is sure to go through. It will then in all likelyhood penetrate a MINIMUM of what a .22LR would, considering it weighs about the same and is about the same diameter and I highly doubt it's energy has dropped from over 1000# to under the 150# common for a .22LR.
That 30gr solid copper wad-cutter is going to penetrate.
Will it do as well as a larger diameter projectile? No. But if you hit them in the head/chest, it's going to ruin a day VERY fast. Think of it as taking a .22LR to the chest.
What are your alternatives? M855 or TAP or MK262? You will get a snow-storm past the barrier none of which is likely to penetrate 12-14".
The only alternative better is a bonded bullet, but then you give up that fragmentation, which in the MK318 is pretty nasty. Think of a 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade at close range...that still has a component that penetrates 12+".
Yeah, a 6.8 or .308 could pull it off better, but it's not a pipe-dream, from what I understand, it does perform as advertised.
Yes...that is exactly what was talking about. I also wanted to get a more clear understanding on the difference in terminal effect between mk318 and 75 grain tap in unobstructed shots. I am thinking about switching my go to ammo to mk318 due to availablity and affordability as well as its its ability to perform in most every situation. It seems like a good do it all round. I'm just leery about giving up that phenomenal terminal effect 75 tap demonstrates against soft targets. Further more I think the velocity needed for mk318 to perform is a little lower than a 75g otm thus giving more effective range.
Yes...that is exactly what was talking about. I also wanted to get a more clear understanding on the difference in terminal effect between mk318 and 75 grain tap in unobstructed shots. I am thinking about switching my go to ammo to mk318 due to availablity and affordability as well as its its ability to perform in most every situation. It seems like a good do it all round.
From what I can gather...
Tap T2 will turn into a lead snow-storm starting about 2-3" in, and extending 12-14" into the target. Take into consideration that this is per gel-testing, and that clothing worn as well as the thick skin of the back (equivalent to roughly 4" of gel) will probably result in the vast majority of the projectile remaining within the target.
MK318 will do the same, starting at about 1", and continue in full force to about 7-9", and then the copper 31-33gr shank will continue onward and most likely exit.
On glass, etc. T2 will fragment heavily and pepper whatever is behind the barrier with small lead/copper shards. MK318 will do the same thing except for the copper shank, which will deviate minimally, and penetrate into and possibly exit the target.
On unobstructed shots, the 75 gr OTM and Mk318 Mod0 will generally offer similar tissue disruption, however the base of the SOST round will likely exit the suspect while the 75 gr OTM does not.
While the Mk318 is a great round for military personnel, there are a lot of better options for LE and civilians, as listed in the second paragraph here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
On unobstructed shots, the 75 gr OTM and Mk318 Mod0 will generally offer similar tissue disruption, however the base of the SOST round will likely exit the suspect while the 75 gr OTM does not.
While the Mk318 is a great round for military personnel, there are a lot of better options for LE and civilians, as listed in the second paragraph here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
So would you consider mk318 to be a better round than 75g tap in most circumstances? And would you choose mk318 over 75g tap with out knowing what the situation called for? I know mk318 may not be the best choice for civies and le but giving the prices of other top performers, mk318 seems to be the best bang for the buck. That and the consistent availability make it extremely apealing. From what I gather, it works, and if you do your job then so will it. It may not be as proven as other options but I am warming up to it. Would I bet my life on it? I don't know yet. Is there a reason not to?
So would you consider mk318 to be a better round than 75g tap in most circumstances? And would you choose mk318 over 75g tap with out knowing what the situation called for? I know mk318 may not be the best choice for civies and le but giving the prices of other top performers, mk318 seems to be the best bang for the buck. That and the consistent availability make it extremely apealing. From what I gather, it works, and if you do your job then so will it. It may not be as proven as other options but I am warming up to it. Would I bet my life on it? I don't know yet. Is there a reason not to?
Dr. Roberts has stated elsewhere that if he had only one round to load up with and he could not pick a bonded or monolithic round like the TOTM, and he was being dropped off in the sand-box, MK318 would be it.
Dr. Roberts has stated elsewhere that if he had only one round to load up with and he could not pick a bonded or monolithic round like the TOTM, and he was being dropped off in the sand-box, MK318 would be it.
that's all i needed to hear. i think its time to pull the trigger on a large mk318 purchase. thank you all.
On unobstructed shots, the 75 gr OTM and Mk318 Mod0 will generally offer similar tissue disruption, however the base of the SOST round will likely exit the suspect while the 75 gr OTM does not.
While the Mk318 is a great round for military personnel, there are a lot of better options for LE and civilians, as listed in the second paragraph here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Would you say the above holds true for the 77 gr Sierra BTHP (TRU)?
What is the mission or requirement driving your ammunition choice?
For military personnel, engaging in combat from 0-300 yards using an M4, the Mk318 Mod0 is the best option readily available via the supply system; the 70 gr Optimized is also very good for those units who can procure it. For folks shooting at 300-600+, the Mk262 Mod1 is clearly the superior choice, along with the 70 gr "browntip" for those commands with access to it.
In a civilian LE or self defense setting, NONE of these are the best options, as the likely shooting parameters and restrictions are far different than in a military setting. My first choice would be one of the barrier blind loads noted in the link I posted above.
HD. Is the 77 gr Sierra (Federal-TRU) similar to the 75 gr OTM and ok for HD?
Failure2Stop
11-03-11, 13:01
I think you misunderstood, with all due respect.
OP that you quoted was referencing the retained weight of the projectile, which appears to be 31-33gr and consists of the solid copper shank.
Yes...that is exactly what was talking about.
Gotcha, my bad.
Submariner
11-03-11, 19:28
In a civilian LE or self defense setting, NONE of these are the best options, as the likely shooting parameters and restrictions are far different than in a military setting. My first choice would be one of the barrier blind loads noted in the link I posted above.
What are the "likely shooting parameters and restrictions" which argue against these rounds and make the barrier blind rounds you suggest superior? Specifically, why would Mk 318 not be "good enough?"
What are the "likely shooting parameters and restrictions" which argue against these rounds and make the barrier blind rounds you suggest superior? Specifically, why would Mk 318 not be "good enough?"
I would like hear more about this to. mk318 was mentioned in the .556 duty ammo thread so it must be sufficient.
Belmont31R
11-03-11, 22:34
What are the "likely shooting parameters and restrictions" which argue against these rounds and make the barrier blind rounds you suggest superior? Specifically, why would Mk 318 not be "good enough?"
The military is not allowed to use bullets designed to expand like a hunting bullet or in this case the loads Doc suggest like TBBC, Gold Dot, ect.
Failure2Stop
11-03-11, 22:59
What are the "likely shooting parameters and restrictions" which argue against these rounds and make the barrier blind rounds you suggest superior? Specifically, why would Mk 318 not be "good enough?"
From the data I have seen and some anecdotal evidence, the other barrier blind rounds seem to be a bit more precise.
I don't have any theory as to why, just what I have read and seen on the interwebz.
They also tend to give better wound potential after barriers, while actually penetrating less through the bad guy on unobstructed shots.
The base of the Mk318 will zip right through the target after the nose frags off, while bullets like the Tactical Bonded tend to hold together in a large classic mushroom shape.
Shooting through glass the bonded bullets hold together, the Mk318 spits a .22cal wadcutter through the glass. While this will penetrate well it won't make as wide of a hole in tissue as the bonded rounds.
For any civilian purpose including vehicles and glass and if cost is not an issue, is there any reason why Barnes 50gr TSX for close range or 62gr TSX for longer ranges would not be one of the better choices?
This assumes over penetration is not a concern.
So if your an Leo or civie and you don't want to run a soft point and you can't afford the quantity of tsx rounds you deem necessary to keep......wouldn't mk318 be next in line when choosing a bb round? With that in mind, a 22lr after penetrating a barrier does not sound like optimal performance but it beats a snow storm of small non-penetrating fragments. what realy concerns me is its performance in unobstructed shots on soft targets. if it can compete with 75g tap then that is good enough for me.
my vote is for the 60gr Nosler Partition FTW to 500 yards.
They also tend to give better wound potential after barriers, while actually penetrating less through the bad guy on unobstructed shots.
The base of the Mk318 will zip right through the target after the nose frags off, while bullets like the Tactical Bonded tend to hold together in a large classic mushroom shape.
Shooting through glass the bonded bullets hold together, the Mk318 spits a .22cal wadcutter through the glass. While this will penetrate well it won't make as wide of a hole in tissue as the bonded rounds.
This post nails it. The Mk 318 will overpenetrate and won't do as much damage after barriers. The end user will have to decide if, with that in mind, the Mk 318 fits their needs.
For home defense, I don't think it does. For outdoor conflict with large groups of hostiles it does. The latter is far more likely, so premium barrier rounds make more sense to me. If you wanna get a few hundred rounds of good barrier ammo and then stock a few thousand Mk318's, that's fine too.
For any civilian purpose including vehicles and glass and if cost is not an issue, is there any reason why Barnes 50gr TSX for close range or 62gr TSX for longer ranges would not be one of the better choices?
This assumes over penetration is not a concern.
The 50gr TSX is a good choice when overpenetration is a concern. It was designed with LE use in mind.
The 62gr will penetrate more, but makes a good extended range round. I like it because, unlike the 70gr, it will work in 1:9 barrels. There are lots and lots of 1:9's out there.
So in summary....... is it safe to say thY while mk318 is not the best choice for duty ammo, it is still a damn fine choice ? Is that a fair assessment ?
So in summary....... is it safe to say thY while mk318 is not the best choice for duty ammo, it is still a damn fine choice ? Is that a fair assessment ?
I bought 500 rounds of it last month, and Ill be ordering another 500 based on Doc's comment:
"At this time, given the current ammo choices available via the standard green/white side military supply system, for a general purpose carbine, I'd load my mags with Mk318 Mod0 if available."
I understand that a 50gr tsx would be better, but I cant justify spending the current price of it on a "what if" scenario. I spent $400 for those 500 rounds when BH 50gr tsx would have been $700.
My mk318 is getting stored.
If you are in the military and procure your ammunition through the standard green/white side military supply system, then Mk318 is the way to go. If you are not in the military and are not restricted to ammo with a NSN, then there are far better choices.
Mk318 is a great military load for use under current LOW requirements, but for CONUS LE or self-defense use, why would anyone choose to use non-bonded 5.56 mm SOST over a quality barrier blind load like TBBC, Win bonded, Speer Gold Dot/Fed Fusion, Rem CLUB, Nosler Partition, or the BH 50 gr TSX??? That is not logical thinking...
The Federal XM223SP1 is selling for around .50/cart and is superior to the T556TNB1 Mk318 that is typically selling for 50% higher cost.
If you are in the military and procure your ammunition through the standard green/white side military supply system, then Mk318 is the way to go. If you are not in the military and are not restricted to ammo with a NSN, then there are far better choices.
Mk318 is a great military load for use under current LOW requirements, but for CONUS LE or self-defense use, why would anyone choose to use non-bonded 5.56 mm SOST over a quality barrier blind load like TBBC, Win bonded, Speer Gold Dot/Fed Fusion, Rem CLUB, Nosler Partition, or the BH 50 gr TSX??? That is not logical thinking...
The Federal XM223SP1 is selling for around .50/cart and is superior to the T556TNB1 Mk318 that is typically selling for 50% higher cost.
Thanks, thats what I will start buying now. :thank_you2: I missed the first half of that
I was also going by "Another acceptable 5.56 mm loading is the Speer 55 gr Gold Dot JSP; the Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1) is also a potential option"
I looked up LE223T1 and LE22T3, and they were terribly expensive.
I also totally f'n missed "along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), and the .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). "
You have a source for that ind of price Doc? I'm not finding it anywhere better than .75 per round
You have a source for that ind of price Doc? I'm not finding it anywhere better than .75 per round
Early this year I was looking for the best bargain on bulk defensive ammo and was looking at the Mk318. After doing some research, and finding Doc's comments in the XM223SP1, I decided to pick up 2500 rounds of the XM223SP1 from Palmetto State Armory at .50/round early this year.
It currently shows out of stock, but I expect the price to be the same when they get more.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php
I asked Palmetto if they would be getting any more of the xm223sp1 in, and they said "That was a contract overrun, and we do not expect to be able to stock it again at this time." I'm not sure why they'd still show it on the website as "temporarily out of stock" if they don't expect to have more...maybe they're as hopeful as I am. I bought a small amount of it planning to test it out then buy a good bit more, then found it was sold out.
I have searched quite a bit and I haven't found it available anywhere lately.
I asked Palmetto if they would be getting any more of the xm223sp1 in, and they said "That was a contract overrun, and we do not expect to be able to stock it again at this time." I'm not sure why they'd still show it on the website as "temporarily out of stock" if they don't expect to have more...maybe they're as hopeful as I am. I bought a small amount of it planning to test it out then buy a good bit more, then found it was sold out.
I have searched quite a bit and I haven't found it available anywhere lately.
Now mk318 is $550/1000. Muzzle velocity from a 14.5" barrel is significantly higher than the fed .223sp1.
Corp lawyers restricting Federal to .223 vs 5.56 loadings for the public is worse than any LOW requirements the military is being "held" to. Soon mk318 will be priced like M885.
I like Doc and his work but xm223sp1 has the right projectile but the wrong powder/case for SD thanks to idiots blowing up their varmit .223 barrels using 5.56 .
If you are LEO or an insider or incredibly rich Doc's thread (advice) makes a lot of sense. Otherwise wait till quality mk318 is $400/100 for your stockpiling and load a few mags with real 5.56 bonded from G&R.
I'd still say that if it were a more educated market, the demand would be for a 5.56 pressure 50gr TSX loading, since that would work across the widest gamut of SD applications and still perform well in SBR's. For any of the longer range stuff, TAP T2 and 69gr/77gr SMK loads like the Mk262 or TAP LE 75 start to make sense again.
I have a lot of Mk318 right now, and it should be fine, but I made that decision based on availability and trying to ensure reasonable muzzle velocity out of 14.5" and shorter barrels. I do think the 50gr is the better option, and it still leaves the most affordable 55gr XM193 clone stuff as practice and large stockpile ammunition.
I asked Palmetto if they would be getting any more of the xm223sp1 in, and they said "That was a contract overrun, and we do not expect to be able to stock it again at this time." I'm not sure why they'd still show it on the website as "temporarily out of stock" if they don't expect to have more...maybe they're as hopeful as I am. I bought a small amount of it planning to test it out then buy a good bit more, then found it was sold out.
I have searched quite a bit and I haven't found it available anywhere lately.
That is unfortunate news. I had hoped to pick up a few more thousand in 2012.
Now mk318 is $550/1000. Muzzle velocity from a 14.5" barrel is significantly higher than the fed .223sp1.
Corp lawyers restricting Federal to .223 vs 5.56 loadings for the public is worse than any LOW requirements the military is being "held" to. Soon mk318 will be priced like M885.
I like Doc and his work but xm223sp1 has the right projectile but the wrong powder/case for SD thanks to idiots blowing up their varmit .223 barrels using 5.56 .
If you are LEO or an insider or incredibly rich Doc's thread (advice) makes a lot of sense. Otherwise wait till quality mk318 is $400/100 for your stockpiling and load a few mags with real 5.56 bonded from G&R.
I would prefer the XM223SP1 loaded to 5.56 pressure but you have to remember that expanding projectiles are typically less velocity dependant than fragmenting ones. I'm still getting good expansion from the XM223SP1 from a 7.5" barrel. I don't know the lower threshold for the Mk318 but I don't expect it to frag well from that short a barrel.
You also have to consider that the Mk318 will overpenetrate. There is an accepted minimum and maximum penetration for a reason. While I like Mk318, and if the price comes down it will replace M193 and M855 as my volume stock ammo, it will not replace premium ammo for home defense or patrol work.
Leatherneck556
11-07-11, 07:40
Now mk318 is $550/1000.
Where are you finding those prices at!?
Where are you finding those prices at!?
+1
Palmetto State has them at $399.75/500 ($799.50/1000) and they are usually very competitive with their pricing.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1433.php
+1
Palmetto State has them at $399.75/500 ($799.50/1000) and they are usually very competitive with their pricing.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1433.php
That price at $550/1000 was probably referring the BVAC load using MK318 projectiles. I don't know much about it but it's not the same as far as I'm concerned...maybe time and testing will say otherwise though. For now, Palmetto is the cheapest place to buy MK318 I believe (and I bought a bit myself recently).
That price at $550/1000 was probably referring the BVAC load using MK318 projectiles. I don't know much about it but it's not the same as far as I'm concerned...maybe time and testing will say otherwise though. For now, Palmetto is the cheapest place to buy MK318 I believe (and I bought a bit myself recently).
in my experience, bvac loads velocity depending fragmenting otm's to .223 pressures and labels them 5.56. this alone has turned me off to bvac. the company they spawned from ( hsm ) does in fact load a hornady 75g otm to true 5.56 pressures. i have a bunch of it. good stuff. i dont think they load a mk 318 clone yet. if they ever do it will be as close as they could get it to the real deal at a fraction of the cost. so...........can any one comment anything more on 75g tap vs mk318 in unobstructed shots?
Leatherneck556
11-08-11, 06:17
That price at $550/1000 was probably referring the BVAC load using MK318 projectiles.
Oh. Never mind then; that doesn't count at all.
urbankaos04
11-13-11, 17:01
So, I see that the bottom line for anyone looking for a decent BB load that will not be prohibitively expensive is to purchase either the .223 SPEER 55 and 64 gr GOLD DOT JSPs, but one is still looking at about $498.60 for 500 rds going by G&R prices, which ain't that cheap either. However, everything else is either too difficult to get, not available to non-LEOs, even more expensive or, damn, all three. (i.e., 5.56mm Federal 62 gr TBBC (XM556FBIT3), 5.56mm Winchester JSP (Q3313/RA556B) and the 5.56mm version of the SPEER Gold Dots). If the preceding is wrong, please correct me.
Question: Do/can individual LEOs get the SPEER loads for discounted prices? And can they get a hold of the 5.56mm SPEER loads?
ETA 1: Wouldn't it be great to see some steel cased, 5.56mm SPEER 55/64gr GOLD DOT JSPs sorta like the Hornady 75gr practice rounds in order to get the cost lower? For example, one can order 500 rounds of the Hornady practice load for $220 before delivery costs (once again, this is using G&R pricing).
ETA 2: Is the small amount of exposed lead on the SPEER rounds a non-issue? I remember DocGKR saying that this was an issue with some rounds that had more exposed lead.
On unobstructed shots, the 75 gr OTM and Mk318 Mod0 will generally offer similar tissue disruption, however the base of the SOST round will likely exit the suspect while the 75 gr OTM does not.
While the Mk318 is a great round for military personnel, there are a lot of better options for LE and civilians, as listed in the second paragraph here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Is there a reason I can't access the highlighted thread?
Can someone enlighten me as to which rounds are mentioned?
[/COLOR][/B]
Is there a reason I can't access the highlighted thread?
Can someone enlighten me as to which rounds are mentioned?
2 reasons. Either it was deleted after M4C and Doc split ways, or it's in the LE only forum.
Try this: ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#.223
Probably not the same article, but still good info.
Great thread.
A question to the masses - Does anyone know the nomenclature for the 70gr TSX loaded by BHA for the military?
Generalpie
10-29-13, 18:21
Even LE agencies have a difficult time getting some of those loads, particularly the federal 62 grain load. Hence the reason we just switched to the Hornady TAP barrier.
I don't see much benefit to the 5.56 loading for almost any foreseeable scenario so I don't worry about that to much.
Joe
On unobstructed shots, the 75 gr OTM and Mk318 Mod0 will generally offer similar tissue disruption, however the base of the SOST round will likely exit the suspect while the 75 gr OTM does not.
I had a through and through on a 200+ lb buck last year with MK318at about 80 yards from a 20" barrel, double lung/heart shot with a half dollar sized exit in the rib cage opposite of the entry wound, only small jacket fragments found in the deer.
ETA 2: Is the small amount of exposed lead on the SPEER rounds a non-issue? I remember DocGKR saying that this was an issue with some rounds that had more exposed lead.
Before switching to the 64 gr Nosler BSB's in handloads I shot primarily 64gr Winchester PP projectiles and never encountered an issue with lead buildup on feed ramps or any type of reliability issues. Also ran a 1000rd case of BHA 55gr soft points in a class and no issues.
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