View Full Version : Epic m&p rust
In December 2009, my roommate at the time became interested in buying a pistol. He had previously basically zero experience with firearms, but I took him to the range a few times, and he started to take to the idea of gun ownership.
After much discussion, he decided on the M&P, with my blessing. Partially because I read that many shooters thought it was a great pistol, and partially because I was curious in trying it myself.
It served him well, though he did not shoot it much. Total round count is probably 600-1000 rounds or so. He was definitely an 'owner', not a shooter.
The pistol was never carried, and basically only came out of its case when he went to the range.
He has since moved back up to his native New York state, and after researching the draconian gun laws up there (however unlikely) the was unwilling to become a felon by bringing an unregistered pistol into the state, and as such he asked me to store it in my house for him. I agreed.
4 months pass. I was cleaning out my closet, and came across the m&p in its case. I naturally decide to take it out for some dry firing/gun fondling. I am horrified by what I discover.
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/IMG_0470.jpg
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/IMG_0471.jpg
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/IMG_0486.jpg
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/IMG_0482.jpg
Current leading theory on what caused this: the foam in the M&P case. Moisture trapped in the case foam caused this crazy rust. Also, the m&p melonite is perhaps not as impressive as, for example glock's tenifer.
jklaughrey
10-07-11, 21:51
**** it, if it still works fine and internals are good offer to buy it and clean it.
I have an old Police Positive from my grandfather that is all pitted and had a shit ton of rust. Still works, but it is no EDC.
I still don't understand what type of stainless steel they used.
I have never seen that amount of rust on a handgun except for a stainless XD a few years ago. If it's just superficial, clean it up and run it. If it's deep or in the internals, send it back to S&W. They should take care of it.
O
The blasting media used to blast early M&P's contained carbon. During blasting, the media would embed in the metal. The melonite was added after and the carbon media would rust under the melonite. Smith and Wesson has since changed to a blasting media with a much lower carbon content that does not cause rust.
You could send the gun back to Smith for replacement or have it reblasted and coated with cerakote or something similar by and aftermarket company.
FWIW, my source on the blasting media was a Smith LE marketing rep.
Twistedsteel
10-07-11, 23:06
yeah, some of the early ones had some problems. Rust and firing pin issues, both have been fixed. Like stated send it to S&W and they should handle it.
yep looks like I should send it back to smith for him--
I've seen this before.
You have one of the slides prone to rust from the bad batch shipped out in 2008/2009. We had a few at your PD and S&W replaced them. If you are unfortunate enough to have a rusty slide M&P keeping it rust-free will be worse than trying to keep a Royal Blue Colt pristine on a extra-humid Miami day.
Call S&W. They should replace it for free and give you a shipping label.
It doesn't help that melonite can reduce the corrosion resistance of many stainless steels.
I still don't understand what type of stainless steel they used.
One with carbon.
IIRC, there was issues with the early melonite coatings. This was something which was fixed during the production runs and isn't an issue anymore.
I would contact Smith and see what they say.
One with carbon.
IIRC, there was issues with the early melonite coatings. This was something which was fixed during the production runs and isn't an issue anymore.
I would contact Smith and see what they say.
All stainless steels have carbon in them. Also melonite is a process that basically "injects" carbon and nitrogen into the molecular structure of the surface of the steel.
Quiet-Matt
10-08-11, 07:01
A friend of mine had a Springfield 1911 that rusted exactly like that. Turned out that his wife thought the foam in his pistol case looked a little dirty, so she washed it for him one day while he was gone! Springfield re-finished it for him at a minimal cost, so I'm sure Smith will do the same.
The older M&P's did have a rust issue. With that said, you still need to take care of your firearm (any firearm). Never store your pistol in the pistol case it came in. Open cell foam attracts moisture.
Call up S&W and they will replace ALL of the rusted parts (no questions asked).
C4
In addition to all the above... Lest ye forget, stainless steel is not rustproof, it's rust resistant.
polydeuces
10-08-11, 08:35
This is why we have oil and grease and basic gun-care. Unless it's gold it WILL rust.
Something to be said for bling I guess....
A friend of mine had a Springfield 1911 that rusted exactly like that. Turned out that his wife thought the foam in his pistol case looked a little dirty, so she washed it for him one day while he was gone! Springfield re-finished it for him at a minimal cost, so I'm sure Smith will do the same.
Thing is I bet there is significant pitting. I am sure my friend would certainly prefer a new slide.
Belmont31R
10-08-11, 14:02
I still don't understand what type of stainless steel they used.
Stainless rusts just not as quickly as carbon steel.
Also, the m&p melonite is perhaps not as impressive as, for example glock's tenifer.
Based on what? Anybody can find a thread here and there with an occasional instance of an M&P or a Glock (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17824915) that has rust issues. But that does not seem like a "pattern" for either one of these guns.
Beat Trash
10-08-11, 14:38
In addition to all the above... Lest ye forget, stainless steel is not rustproof, it's rust resistant.
This is something many either don't know, or forget.
I'd contact S&W customer service and have them address the issue. Ship the gun to them, they'll take care of you.
When you get the gun back, keep a light coating of oil on the gun when storing it. That funky brown paper they wrap the gun in when putting it in the foam case is there for a reason.
would s&w give him a new gun at this point? or at least a new upper and change out all the parts in the lower?
Quiet-Matt
10-08-11, 14:39
Thing is I bet there is significant pitting. I am sure my friend would certainly prefer a new slide.
Yeah, there was a bit of pitting. The whole thing made him sick. I bet Smith will make it right and replace the rusted parts.
The older M&P's did have a rust issue. With that said, you still need to take care of your firearm (any firearm). Never store your pistol in the pistol case it came in. Open cell foam attracts moisture.
Call up S&W and they will replace ALL of the rusted parts (no questions asked).
C4
i heard of a trick once to spray silicone based lube into the foam but this would be temporary or does this not even work?
drummerdude1188
10-08-11, 15:10
The older M&P's did have a rust issue. With that said, you still need to take care of your firearm (any firearm). Never store your pistol in the pistol case it came in. Open cell foam attracts moisture.
Call up S&W and they will replace ALL of the rusted parts (no questions asked).
C4
Grant, what years of production are considered early?
I looked at a used M&P40c yesterday in a gunshop case-it had started to rust just like that from being in the case. It had a silver dollar size spot at the rear of the slide, to include the sights.
Why S&W insists on making the slide and barrel from SS then meloniting it versus carbon steel is strange. Doesn't carbon steel take the process better?
would s&w give him a new gun at this point? or at least a new upper and change out all the parts in the lower?
I think he would get a new slide and controls.
C4
Grant, what years of production are considered early?
09's or earlier were more prone to rusting than newer models.
C4
That funky brown paper they wrap the gun in when putting it in the foam case is there for a reason.
What would be a good retrofit for that brown paper? I currently store a few pistols and rifles in gun cases and so far have had no rust issues, probably from keeping them lightly oiled. But if foam is a moisture attractant what is a better way to store them?
Would wrapping them in red rosin (building ) paper be a possibility? Or not in the foam lined ox at all? If not in the pistol case then what?
I miss the days when my Dad stored his guns in a nice wood cabinet with glass doors. You could see them, and since it was in the family room take them out and inspect (OK, fondle) them whenever convenient.
Belmont31R
10-08-11, 18:52
Guys...no matter what steel or coating do not store ANY firearm in a foam case or leather holster. If you live in a humid climate wipe down the exterior with an OILY rag (oil with good corrosion resistance properties), and inspect them at least once a month if not bi weekly.
If you have a safe use desiccant packs or other measures to lower the humidity in the storage vessel.
Leaving a firearm in a foam case for months is asking for rust no matter what.
PdxMotoxer
10-08-11, 19:06
Agreed.. that foam case is for safely taking to and returning from the range.
(those who do not carry that weapon)
For "storing" make sure to wipe them down with a silicone cloth or some light oil making sure not to touch and leave acids from your fingers on metal.
Ideally store them in a gun safe with one or two dehumidifiers.
Agreed that leaving firearms in a foam case is a bad idea. I've had both a pistol and a rifle show rust from being left in a foam case for just a few days (less than 2 weeks total in the case of the rifle--and it was a brand new rifle!). After that lesson, I always keep my stuff out of the cases, well coated with CorrosionX, and stored in my safe that has a Goldenrod to keep things really dry.
Although I have to say, once I started coating stuff with CorrosionX, even though I live in Seattle area where it's very damp 9 months of the year, the rust problems went away. I even have an emergency kit with an M&P pistol in my trunk, and it stays out there for months at a time without showing rust. I do inspect it monthly and recoat lightly with CorrosionX about 3x a year.
I'm not a gun smith nor do I play one on TV. So, what does someone do to clean that up?
Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk
I'm not a gunsmith either, but I think you have a couple of choices.
1. For an M&P--or another fairly recent pistol brand with good manufacturer's warranty--if it rusts and it shouldn't have, then do as was recommended above and send it back to S&W. They will just replace the parts and be done with it.
2. If you don't have the warranty option, then there are a variety of ways to deal with rust depending on what kind of steel and finish you're dealing with. Like I mentioned on steel gun barrels, one way a lot of gunsmiths recommend and I have tried, is to rub it with oil-soaked fine steel wool (say grade 000), then follow up with coats of cold bluing (for blued guns, obviously) or other appropriate finish to protect the surface.
Thomas M-4
10-08-11, 22:22
I rusted mine to all most that point yours might be ''slightly more'' but not by much.
It was fairly easily cleaned up I field striped it and soaked all of the metal in CLP take OOO steel wool and soak the steel wool in CLP.
With light pressure scrub the parts. The rust comes off fairly easily the black melonite finish was unaffected it looked like new afterwards.
Heavy Metal
10-08-11, 22:28
I'm not a gunsmith either, but I think you have a couple of choices.
1. For an M&P--or another fairly recent pistol brand with good manufacturer's warranty--if it rusts and it shouldn't have, then do as was recommended above and send it back to S&W. They will just replace the parts and be done with it.
2. If you don't have the warranty option, then there are a variety of ways to deal with rust depending on what kind of steel and finish you're dealing with. Like I mentioned on steel gun barrels, one way a lot of gunsmiths recommend and I have tried, is to rub it with oil-soaked fine steel wool (say grade 000), then follow up with coats of cold bluing (for blued guns, obviously) or other appropriate finish to protect the surface.
Using steel wooll on Stainless is a huge no-no. Makes corrosion cells, likely similar to what the blasting media did to cause this in the first place.
Send-it-back!!!
Thomas M-4
10-08-11, 22:57
Interesting...
Over the yrs I have managed to surface rust rust quite a few things.
Factory SS ruger 10/22 barrel. Factory HK G3 cocking tube [ which by the way I thought was zinc coated by the looks of it] guess it was not :confused: I wont even try to count the blued guns but that is a given.
Never had the ruger SS barrel re-rust after I cleaned it off nor did the M&P but after those episodes I consciously made sure they were had a light film of oil.
BTW my M&P got the Light bit of rust after a light shooting session and left it in the truck after for 30 or so hrs.
Using steel wooll on Stainless is a huge no-no. Makes corrosion cells, likely similar to what the blasting media did to cause this in the first place.
Send-it-back!!!
Yep. I think that's what I said as well, for MP's and similar guns that have a warranty: it's best to send em' back. I was also trying to give one example of a useful technique you can do yourself to remove rust on other types of BLUED guns that are no longer under warranty (I didn't mention stainless).
lethal dose
10-09-11, 09:24
Smith has the best cs of any large company (and even better then a lot of small companies) that I've ever dealt with. I have sent them things that were clearly abused that I thought wore out prematurely and they have never charged me a dime and they paid shipping both ways.
rescueswimmer
10-09-11, 09:54
Hopefully it gets taken care of. Hell send off and have it Nickel Boron.
NCPatrolAR
10-09-11, 10:02
Anyone know if Smith will replace rusting magazines?
Anyone know if Smith will replace rusting magazines?
Yes. In my case, they replaced one of the earliest mags they made that had rust on it. I just emailed them a picture, they sent a new mag.
i heard of a trick once to spray silicone based lube into the foam but this would be temporary or does this not even work?
I've tried the silicone spray trick, and it worked for the year that I stored in the foam case. However, I ended up throwing out the case shortly after.
I found that the open cell foam allowed the fluid to migrate throughout, and ended up with a wet sponge that made a mess of everything. The next gun I stored in there came out completely drencehed in oil. It may work, but I would never recommend anyone spray a foam lined case down with any oil and use it for storage.
The blasting media used to blast early M&P's contained carbon. During blasting, the media would embed in the metal. The melonite was added after and the carbon media would rust under the melonite. Smith and Wesson has since changed to a blasting media with a much lower carbon content that does not cause rust.
You could send the gun back to Smith for replacement or have it reblasted and coated with cerakote or something similar by and aftermarket company.
FWIW, my source on the blasting media was a Smith LE marketing rep.
There's alot of truth in your statement, I'm a pipefitter, and have been fitting alot of stainless pipe in the last few years, 99% being Tig welded..One cardinal sin is using a carbon steel wire brush to shine up the weld, the same reasoning applys, you're introducing carbon onto the stainless surface, which results in rust on the weld very quickly, If you must use a file it should be brand new, and used only for stainless from that point on, use it on carbon and it's contaminated, and will put carbon on the weld if used on stainless.So, what you're saying makes perfect sense to me..
dookie1481
11-05-11, 00:31
I have this problem. What happens with my aftermarket sights? Do they send them back in a bag or will they re-install them?
I have this problem. What happens with my aftermarket sights? Do they send them back in a bag or will they re-install them?
They will re-install them. It's not the case for internals though. I sent mine in with a note saying it had an Apex sear block in it and to return the slide with that part. I got it back with a factory smith sear block.
Mike
From what I know, factory will not install/support after market parts.
**** it, if it still works fine and internals are good offer to buy it and clean it.
I have an old Police Positive from my grandfather that is all pitted and had a shit ton of rust. Still works, but it is no EDC.
This is likely an example of the chromium content of the stainless steel being destroyed during the nitriding process. I have absolutely no idea as to why S&W stubbornly refuses to convert to carbon steel for it's slides, doing so would virtually eliminate any further oxidation issues like this particular specimen, perhaps a consequence of the lawsuit that they lost for copyright infringing on Glock's design?
The blasting media used to blast early M&P's contained carbon. During blasting, the media would embed in the metal. The melonite was added after and the carbon media would rust under the melonite. Smith and Wesson has since changed to a blasting media with a much lower carbon content that does not cause rust.
You could send the gun back to Smith for replacement or have it reblasted and coated with cerakote or something similar by and aftermarket company.
FWIW, my source on the blasting media was a Smith LE marketing rep.
Thats interesting, however in my opinion thats not whats taking place with S&W M&P pistols, though certainly it could contribute.
The problem is that the acid bath destroys the chromium content of stainless steels by breaking down their toughness, resulting in brittleness and an actual pre-dispostion to oxidize!
My belief is that whatever benefit that the melonite imparts occurs in a very narrow spectrum, very narrow indeed with stainless steel, a little to much exposure and "presto" you have rusting steel that is no longer stainless! I've never heard a good solid explanation as to why S&W continues to stick with stainless steel slides on the M&P, perhaps one of the industry guys could offer an explanation as to why?
I wrap all of my pistols in wax paper when they are stored in the foam cases.
Thats interesting, however in my opinion thats not whats taking place with S&W M&P pistols, though certainly it could contribute.
The problem is that the acid bath destroys the chromium content of stainless steels by breaking down their toughness, resulting in brittleness and an actual pre-dispostion to oxidize!
My belief is that whatever benefit that the melonite imparts occurs in a very narrow spectrum, very narrow indeed with stainless steel, a little to much exposure and "presto" you have rusting steel that is no longer stainless! I've never heard a good solid explanation as to why S&W continues to stick with stainless steel slides on the M&P, perhaps one of the industry guys could offer an explanation as to why?
Very technical , how about ,the slide wasnt wiped down with oil after handling and then stored in a humid environment ? sometimes its the simple stuff.
St.Michael
11-10-11, 12:51
Did SW correct the issue by doing anything with that slide?
crazymoose
11-11-11, 17:40
My belief is that whatever benefit that the melonite imparts occurs in a very narrow spectrum, very narrow indeed with stainless steel, a little to much exposure and "presto" you have rusting steel that is no longer stainless! I've never heard a good solid explanation as to why S&W continues to stick with stainless steel slides on the M&P, perhaps one of the industry guys could offer an explanation as to why?
I have no insider knowledge, but I've always speculated that it was marketing; not that many people are familiar with the benefits of nitrocarburizing carbon steel, but lots of people will get a warm fuzzy when they see "Stainless" in giant letters on the slide.
Heavy Metal
11-11-11, 17:54
Very technical , how about ,the slide wasnt wiped down with oil after handling and then stored in a humid environment ? sometimes its the simple stuff.
The whole point of Meloniting a slide is to remove the necessity for treating all guns like they are blued. A properly-melonitied slide should resist that kind of abuse quite well.
sniperfrog
11-13-11, 17:42
I have no insider knowledge, but I've always speculated that it was marketing; not that many people are familiar with the benefits of nitrocarburizing carbon steel, but lots of people will get a warm fuzzy when they see "Stainless" in giant letters on the slide.
This seams the most likely explanation to me as well.
I was at a gun store a few years back looking at an M&P and the the guy behind the counter was like "if the black color wears off it still won't rust 'cuz it's stainless". :rolleyes:
so, I never updated this thread.
I helped my friend send the gun back, and Smith replaced the slide and barrel. I think it took around 10 weeks.
they did right by him, as expected.
Good to hear!
That pic made me go dig out some guns I had not touched in a long time. Living in the desert is good for guns!
They still got a wipe down...
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