View Full Version : Jacket Ideas? Soft and Hard Shell.
It's getting cold out and I could use some new jackets. I was going to go pick up a Northface, but I'd prefer something with more pockets and velcro to run patches.
Price range - probably $50 - $150 for each layer.
I'm looking for stuff that is good for the Fall. Michigan gets weird around this time. For example, it's been mid 70s lately during the days and under 30 at night. I'd rather layer up then have a dedicated jacket for winter months. I carry a lot of stuff on my person - so not worrying about switching things from jacket to jacket is a big plus.
A friend recently picked up a Condor jacket and swears it's as good as his old TAG - though I know the quality is usually in the stitching.
Anyways, let me know any ideas. In particular any features that are desirable to the shooting crowd. Thanks.
Belmont31R
10-09-11, 15:05
This time of year is not usually good to buy cold weather clothing because all the discounted stuff is already sold, and now everyone is selling full price stuff.
With that said I would look at a good base layer like smart wool merino wool long johns. I have a few different types, and even with a light outer layer they can boost your warmth very well while wicking away sweat off your skin.
Look at the arcteryx leaf line. Maybe a little more than your budget but a lot of their products are USA or Canada made, and will last a good while. You can also buy things from REI, and if you need velcro a seamstress can stitch on some for little money. REI brand is usually good stuff, and a bit cheaper than the name brands.
For myself I have found a good baselayer with puffy insulation in the middle, and a hard water repellent shell on the outside to be the best. In snow down jackets work really well but soaked down sucks. I have a North Face down jacket Ive had since 2000, and hard to beat how awesome it is. Id not wear it during rain but snow doesn't usually soak through unless its soggy.
Although reviews have been mixed around here, I've had a 5.11 Sabre jacket for over a year now. It's had a lot of use and has held up with no issues. Certainly there are better jackets out there. I looked at Arct'ryx and Tad but at twice the price didn't go that way. Not that those jackets aren't good value for the money, but 5.11 jacket + fleece layer has met my expectations.
Soft Shell Jacket:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48289
Hard Shell Jacket:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74513
Hope you find what you're looking for!
Yea I'm bad about waiting to buy something when I need it - not when I need to buy it.
CLHC - exactly what I was looking for. Big thanks. I always have a hard time google'ing old m4c threads.
Here's what I'd seen in person - and is basically what I'm looking for. I'd just buy it, but I've always heard to avoid Condor products because they fall apart - and I'm rough on everything. But it has some features that more traditional hiking soft shells don't.
I guess to save time looking over a bunch of different stuff - would this jacket by Condor stand up to abuse AND / OR is there a better jacket out there laid out similarly? I could do without the stow away hood. It was quite bulky. (see pic below)
Also, any good places to buy? I almost jumped on an Arc'Teryx last year that someone posted a link to. It was like 70% off, but they were out of my size.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/452fc624-22c3-daf7.jpg
CaptainDooley
10-09-11, 18:03
I looked long and hard at that Condor soft shell last year (well, I read as many reviews as I could find). In the end I couldn't bring myself to do it - no one reviewing it was as hard on the jacket as I would be in normal life. I ended up with a Mountain Hardware soft shell that didn't have all the features I wanted, but was in the price range I wanted to spend. I'd certainly be open to suggestions for one laid out similar to that Condor and would take some mild abuse that I didn't have to drop 3 bills on...
I just got a nice rei branded softshell for 35.00 off their clearance rack two weeks ago. I would shop around a bit, deals can still had in the Austin area any how.
That Condor looks like a copy of the TAD Gear (http://www.tripleaughtdesign.com) Stealth. Granted, TAD Gear products are pricey, but my Stealth and Raptor have served me well.
I also think the North Face Bionic (http://www.thenorthface.com/catalog/sc-gear/mens-apex-bionic-jacket.html) is a great value in a soft shell.
Though I'm a TAD fan, I keep stealing looks at SORD USA's (http://www.sordusa.com/product.php?productid=222&cat=4&page=) hard face jacket and hoodie. Might be worth a look - the militarymorons review (http://www.militarymorons.com/gear/clothes.4.html) was quite positive.
REI (http://www.rei.com/) is running a 20% off sale for members right now - good time to pick up a jacket. My local REI usually has a decent stock of Arc'Teryx jackets, and as Belmont mentioned the REI line stuff looks like a good value.
The two other threads mentioned have some good info as well.
Yea I'm bad about waiting to buy something when I need it - not when I need to buy it.
CLHC - exactly what I was looking for. Big thanks. I always have a hard time google'ing old m4c threads.
Here's what I'd seen in person - and is basically what I'm looking for. I'd just buy it, but I've always heard to avoid Condor products because they fall apart - and I'm rough on everything. But it has some features that more traditional hiking soft shells don't.
I guess to save time looking over a bunch of different stuff - would this jacket by Condor stand up to abuse AND / OR is there a better jacket out there laid out similarly? I could do without the stow away hood. It was quite bulky. (see pic below)
Also, any good places to buy? I almost jumped on an Arc'Teryx last year that someone posted a link to. It was like 70% off, but they were out of my size.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/452fc624-22c3-daf7.jpg
Steve,
I have the Condor Phantom soft shell (the one without the hood) and can say that I am happy with the construction of it for the money that I paid for it. I think they could have put in a heavier duty, waterproof zipper and not increased the price of the jacket TOO much...but lets face it, its a budget soft-shell that you won't mind beating up. The micro-fleece inner layer is pretty warm for a mid-weight jacket as well....but I run pretty hot anyway so I'm not the best to judge that lol
In light rain and the "sink-tests" that I've done with it, the fabric seems to be pretty water-resistant. The seams look well sewn to my uneducated eye as well....but like I've said about Condor in other threads, its not the material that Condor uses, its the design, specs, and inconsistent stitching that make people not like them. With my sample of ONE of their softshells, none of the above seem to be an issue. I haven't been hard on it, much less worn it much since I got it toward the end of winter here in Texas, but I'll get some use out of it in the coming months for classes and general wear.
Bottom line is that for the money, I think it is a pretty darn good buy, I won't mind beating it up and getting it dirty, and fits my "college guy" budget well. However, like I did, I would shop around and try to find deals on more "quality" pieces...but if you land back on the Condor due to price, I don't think you'll regret the buy.
Hope that helps answer some questions.
I have an REI soft shell from a few years ago and I love it. I have the condor soft shell as well which works well in the light rain we have here in California.
The TAD gear is a bit too gucci for me.
This is a jacket that looks good from REI, great customer service.
http://www.rei.com/product/773418/kuhl-retro-hoodie-jacket-mens
Its like a trend in the outdoor gear market to place extremely high prices on items more due to popularity instead of need. If something has a lower price is more frowned on as being cheap.
kary
Another that may be of interest:
< SCOTTEVEST/SeV (http://www.scottevest.com/) >
Steve,
Normally I would never consider any kind of Condor gear, however about a year ago I picked up two Condor Soft shells to try out (with the hood). I figured since their competition was 3x the price, I would give them a shot and if they turned out to be shit...it's only a jacket.
A year later, they've actually held up pretty well. I have a OD and black one I wear to the range in rain and/or cold weather and both have been 100%...they do a good job of keeping me warm and dry. I am pretty rough on both of them and neither (thus far) have given me any issues.
My only complaints are the zippers which have finer teeth than ones I am used to. It seems like it would be easier for them to derail...though I have not had any issues as of yet. Another one, is there are little threads hanging off of the stitching everywhere on the inside of the jacket. Like they didn't bother to cut it off after they stitched a seam (which I'm sure is exactly the case). This doesn't cause any functional issues, just doesn't look the best. At any rate, this is not a deal breaker for me considering the price.
As someone else said, for the price they are a good deal IMO.
Most of the REI brand stuff is going to wear very well, and finding applicable items within the spec'd price range is pretty easy, be they in foo-foo colors or the more subdued sort.
Best yet, REI's return/exchange policy is one of those things that bucks the "too good to be true" rule. They've let me exchange a pair of boots that developed a "click" in the right heel (some gap in the glue on the sole creating an air pocket, most likely)...after I'd worn them nearly daily for 8 freakin' months. Being an REI Co-op member helps, because they can look up your receipts (but the points you buld up are awesome when you're making multiple purchases throughout the year). If you buy it there, and you are unsatisfied for practically ANY reason, you can do an exchange, even for another brand, if not an outright return.
As for Condor, a small sample; I know of three guys that have their shoftshell, and they are more than "casual" users of gear, and those things are holding up surprisingly well, up to 2yrs after purchase.
IF I didn't already have my softshell angle redundantly covered, and IF REI wasn't as good as they are about supporting what they sell, I'd be confident in buying the Condor.
Whatever you get, get yourself some Nikwax products, both the wash and the surface spray to refresh the water-resistant properties from time to time. Replace it as you use it; that stuff's pretty damned good on ANY softshell item.
I've been looking for a good softshell for a while now, and had almost settled on the Condor, but I wanted something that didn't scream .mil with all the velcro swatches everywhere. Fortunately, this thread and the links pointed me to the Red Ledge stuff. I just found their Gauntlet jacket for $42 shipped. Should be here in a couple of days, just enough time for central Arizona to cool off enough to actually warrant a jacket.
I may still get a Condor for colder-weather training, etc, but I wanted something a little more subdued for daily wear in town.
About the only thing I could add (that hasn't already been stated) is to look FIRST at quality of craftsmanship, quality of materials, and stated method of production (i.e., to achieve a 'stretch' property, use the right weave instead of adding spandex or some nonsense like that).
OTTE Gear has had great reviews, and they're exclusively USA owned, operated and made. I have a jacket on order with them right now. Arc'teryx and other high end equipment can indeed be found within reasonable prices here:
http://www.backcountry.com/arcteryx
and occasionally here:
http://www.steepandcheap.com/
Just be prepared to be a bit flexible with colors. I also agree strongly with the member who emphasized the use of (quality) base layers. As far as the latter go, I have Under Armor and Arc'teryx RHO LTW. The Arc'teryx is higher quality, in my biased opinion.
Lastly, when reading the gear reviews at vendor sites or sites like this, read between the lines to get a realistic sense of whether the reviewers are truly using the gear as YOU would or will. Too much of this stuff doesn't get used to its potential. I might throw on a nice rain jacket to run errands, but that's because I already paid for it, and it also gets hard, serious use on other days. Since I feel no obligation to other readers to use my gear only on duty/hard use time, it gets use when weather conditions dictate, not the sensibilities of self-styled critics.
Pat
bluesgt380
10-11-11, 17:41
A lot of companys support "pro's". Promotive.com is the website that I use. Submit your information and wait for approval. They have all kinds of criteria for different products. LE, MIL, Outdoor instructors all kinds . Average discount on Marmot, Helly Hansen, Cloudveil, 30-50% off. I am a LEO and I ordered the first item the other day and recieved it in 6 days. Pretty nice.
HardToHandle
10-16-11, 18:03
I picked up an Eddie Bauer Mountain Guide Jacket for $44.51 two weeks ago. It was $225 jacket I've been eyeing for over a year.
I'm not usually one to say get quality gear from Eddie Bauer, but this was a purposefully-designed mountain shell (mostly soft, but a little hard). It has a breathable, stretchy body fabric, which seemed custom-made for wearing under a plate carrier.
For 20 cents on the dollar, it looks to be a good purchase. if you want functional and cheap, this might be an option. I'd buy two more if I could find them.
Most of the REI brand stuff is going to wear very well, and finding applicable items within the spec'd price range is pretty easy, be they in foo-foo colors or the more subdued sort.
Best yet, REI's return/exchange policy is one of those things that bucks the "too good to be true" rule. They've let me exchange a pair of boots that developed a "click" in the right heel (some gap in the glue on the sole creating an air pocket, most likely)...after I'd worn them nearly daily for 8 freakin' months. Being an REI Co-op member helps, because they can look up your receipts (but the points you buld up are awesome when you're making multiple purchases throughout the year). If you buy it there, and you are unsatisfied for practically ANY reason, you can do an exchange, even for another brand, if not an outright return.
As for Condor, a small sample; I know of three guys that have their shoftshell, and they are more than "casual" users of gear, and those things are holding up surprisingly well, up to 2yrs after purchase.
IF I didn't already have my softshell angle redundantly covered, and IF REI wasn't as good as they are about supporting what they sell, I'd be confident in buying the Condor.
Whatever you get, get yourself some Nikwax products, both the wash and the surface spray to refresh the water-resistant properties from time to time. Replace it as you use it; that stuff's pretty damned good on ANY softshell item.
Listen to what this man is saying. Half of my wardrobe is REI brand and it will take abuse. I have beaten my pants and jackets into submission on the gravel of shooting ranges. Their waterproof and storm wear is top notch. I live in the PNW and most of the training here is done in the rain and mud and the stuff holds up well. I've hunted deer and elk in the same gear and have no complaints. The return policy is the stuff of legend. Good call on the Nikwax too.
Edit: Decided to check the REI website after writing this and wound up browsing the outlet section. Used a coupon and applied my dividend to buy a fleece jacket for nine bucks. Had it shipped to the store, so no shipping charges. My previous one lasted seven years. Seriously. Nine bucks.
I just got an Arc'teryx Atom LT Pull over for $165....I really like it and it kept me warm on a low 50's night with just a t shirt underneath.
I have a TAD Ranger hoodie I wear almost every day in PNW and a stealth jacket for when it really rains and I've worn it in Afghanistan. They are great pieces of gear, high quality, work great, look great, I can't praise them enough, there are only a few issues with TAD,
- They don't "pack" at all. It's something you "leave the wire" in or you don't bring at all. If packability is a concern, skip TAD gear. If not, look long and hard, all of their products have been worth the price IMO
- TAD is owned by an Army veteran, but the guy seems to be a pinko commie. TAD has supported organizations like Green Peace in the past.
- Some people have had very bad CS experiences with TAD, I have not. Some people had credit card information compromised but I believe that was with the old site. The new site hasn't had issues and lets you pay with paypal if you want. Again I have had no issues but enough people here and on LF have to make it worth mentioning.
- Made in China. I was reading up about the Arc'Teryx LEAF line and how it has had to move a lot of its production to China as well, and it isn't price motivated its skill motivated. Arc'Teryx can't find enough skilled sewers to produce their products in America. The Canada labor they use is mostly asian immigrants as well. I thought it was pretty interesting and made me change my opinion on "Made in China" on a case by case basis.
I wish I could rock LEAF gear, but there is no way in hell I am going to spend that much money. The Alpha jacket is listed at $750, and the lowest I've seen it "in real life" was $500. I'll have to get to a unit with the budget to buy that shit for me.
variablebinary
10-18-11, 00:25
I tend to wear Marmot or Northface.
I have a TAD Gear Stealth Hoodie and find the quality to be top tier but am a little apprehensive to rolling around on the ground in it after paying $250. When it comes to ruff-n-tumble I have a couple Carhartt soft shells for work and play. They can be had for under $100 and if you have to have patches velcro can easily be sewn on a sleeve.
I have a TAD Gear Stealth Hoodie and find the quality to be top tier but am a little apprehensive to rolling around on the ground in it after paying $250. When it comes to ruff-n-tumble I have a couple Carhartt soft shells for work and play. They can be had for under $100 and if you have to have patches velcro can easily be sewn on a sleeve.
Carhartt is a great way to stay warm and the most durable I have seen. Of all the brands out there come and go I have seen most ranchers and woodsmen wear Carhartt jacket & overalls w/ a good fleece under layer more than anything else.
It's just not as light or 'cool' as LEAF or North Face.
if you need velcro a seamstress can stitch on some for little money
Yup. They can also sew on pockets, internally & externally.
I've got last year's version of the Columbia Ascender...
Here is the new one:
OD or Tan @ Bass Pro (http://www.basspro.com/Columbia-Ascender-II-Softshell-Jackets-for-Men/product/10213904/195562)
Sage @ Academy (http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_359040_-1?color=Sedona+Sage&N=86178840)
Great jacket. Well made, good zipper, warm, layers well.
The arms are nice & long so I was able to go down a size to the Large. It fits more snug which I really like for shooting.
$70 just about anywhere.
I used to be a North Face fanboy until they started marketing as a fashion brand. Their gear has gone downhill.
Columbia makes good kit and is a LOT less expensive.
Moose-Knuckle
10-18-11, 20:57
Anyone who has read my softshell thread knows that I have owned and or still own softshells and hardshells from TNF, Carhartt, OTTE, Arc'teryx, Lowe Alpine, Patagonia, and REI.
I will say this, don't pay full retail. I have only ever paid full retail for one jacket, a TNF Apex Bionic. I have found all my other jackets on half price racks out of season (summer) and or discount sites like Sierra Trading Post and Amron International. REI runs sales from time to time as do the manufacturers on their home sites. That is how I picked up a fleece jacket and softshell from Patagonia.
I will have to join Promotive.com once my credentials are verified, sounds like a great source.
I wear TAD, but I have been slowly selling it and replacing it with Arc'Teryx. I honestly don't care where it's made, if they charge an arm and a leg for stuff made overseas...I can't imagine how much stuff would cost if it was of the same quality and made here.
Moose-Knuckle is absolutely right, DON'T pay (or get dissuaded by) full retail. There's also Arc'teryx's LEAF program, OTTE Gear's MIL/LE discount, Promotive.com, Steep and Cheap, and Backcountry.com's numerous sales. My last three jackets have all been bought used, and at a substantially lower price. I also bought my wife a new Arc'teryx Gamma MX at a discount of something like 67%.
Come to think of it, that's another benefit of going with one of the leading manufacturers; if you want to get rid of one in good shape, they hold their value quite well.
Pat
I live in Alaska and hard on gear. I'm a civie so my days in the field are spent, ATV'ing, hiking, hunting and fishing.
I came across KUIU gear and for the bucks its hard to beat.
http://blog.kuiu.com/2012/02/22/why-non-laminated-soft-shell/
Above is some good info on soft shells and why a KUIU Guide Jacket is on my list.
I have one of the Chugach Rain Jacket Hard Shell and it keeps you dry and its the most breathable piece of rain gear I own.
My other favorite hard shell is the Patagonia Rain Shadow jacket.
Since this would be my first softshell, I couldn't bring myself to spent the $ for a LEAF. So I spent the $80 for a Condor Phantom and so far in day to day use it's been what I hoped. Comfortable, material nice and stretchy, weather resistant, fits well, can layer under, vents work, pockets good, sewing looks OK. Main front zipper could be a problem down the road, looks a little underpowered. I've got a 2 day class coming up at the end of the month, I'm not going to baby it. If it works out, I'll push it thru till next winter. If not, it goes for use around the house. For the $80 I know it's no Arc'teryx but I don't make my living with it either.
PrivateCitizen
03-22-12, 11:34
OR Camber
Excellent in all facets unless you just gotta have a dead bird logo or velcro.
Outdoor Reserch Camber (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/outdoor-research-camber-jacket-windstopper-soft-shell-for-men~p~3064k/)
That it is hoodless and has a drawcord at the neck was gravy for me.
For what it's worth, I bought a Northface Apex in Fig Green from Sierra Trading Post. They are discontinuing this (great) color, so I think I paid like $70 shipped. It had the unique advantage of blending in with the local hipster, douchebag, and suburban brat population. Being that I'm a hipster, douchebag, suburban brat - it was a good fit.
I want to like the TAD.... but being that it's made overseas just like the Condor - it's really hard to justify the extra cost. I may pick one or the other up as the season closes, but I couldn't pass up the NF as a nice everyday civilian looking jacket - and my wife says the color looks nice on me (never rule out the "bang-factor").
Now the bad news is I've pissed off either the Gods or Al Gore - because it's been cold enough here in MI to warrant wearing it exactly twice since I've received it. Maybe next year Michigan will go back to being cold in the winter.
Only pic i have on hand right now. Great color though. I may even buy another if that color is still in stock and on closeout.
http://img.tapatalk.com/452fc624-ba70-60ec.jpg
Steve S, how does the jacket wear as far as concealed carry, looks like it might be too short for non iwb carry.
Steve S, how does the jacket wear as far as concealed carry, looks like it might be too short for non iwb carry.
No issues at all. I'm wearing it now with an M&P / X300 in one of our OWB Holsters. Any decent concealed carry holste will work. It breaks about 8" below my waist line.
I'm doing a VSM class tomorrow, so I'll try and remember to have someone snap a pic since I'll be running my EDC gear and drawing from concealment.
ETA - I've got long arms, but if I put my hands at my side straight, the jacket goes to about my knuckles. The sleeves cover my knuckles just barely if not cinched back. Their Hook in the sleeves works great. The Loop part is standard stuff, but the Hook is molded into a rubbery plastic tab. Most Velcro wears out because the Hook gets matted with hair and dirt - but this is not your typical Hook. Cool stuff. I'll post a pic later.
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