View Full Version : Cold weather sleeping bag recommendations
Looking for one that can go below 20.
Thanks,
Celt
High Tower
10-18-11, 08:22
I know the military "sleep systems" will work from experience. If you are tall (6'4"+) I would not advise one.
There are quite a few options out there and depending on your needs - weight, colors, size, price etc - it will be easy enough to find one. I wouldn't do internet shopping on stuff like this as I prefer to actually see the product before I buy it. Check out camping/backpacking/outdoorsy stores like REI.
http://www.snugpak.com/index.php?MenuID=160-131
That link will be a good start. They work well and compact pretty small.
I know the military "sleep systems" will work from experience. If you are tall (6'4"+) I would not advise one.
There are quite a few options out there and depending on your needs - weight, colors, size, price etc - it will be easy enough to find one. I wouldn't do internet shopping on stuff like this as I prefer to actually see the product before I buy it. Check out camping/backpacking/outdoorsy stores like REI.
http://www.snugpak.com/index.php?MenuID=160-131
That link will be a good start. They work well and compact pretty small.
x2 on the "Wiggy's" system.
I have been using the Snugpak Elite 1 (http://www.brigadeqm.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/store/level4c.tam?M5COPY.ctx=30400&M5.ctx=30400) and Elite 3 (you can put them together if needed). The Elite 1 is the lightest warmest synthetic bag I have ever used (for it's pack size) and I really like it. The 3 is too warm for any type of indoor use. I usually use them unzipped because they work so well. They also manage moisture extremely well.
-Western Mountaineering
-Feathered Friends
-Mountain Hardwear ("Wraith" or "Ghost" come to mind)
-Montbell
None will look "tactical" but these companies make very good bags.
Iraq Ninja
11-03-11, 19:29
Celt,
Are you packing it in or static?
Is it a dry or wet environment?
Is weight and size important?
Wiggys are tough, a bit heavy and bulky.
Kifaru only makes the regulator slick bag now. Their base bag and MOB are out of production...damn.
My current strategy is to factor in wearing my cold weather clothing (Wild things Happy Suit) inside the bag. I think this is same thinking the USMC is going towards in their new bag.
I had high hopes for the Guardian Sleep System from Bluewater/ADS but they don't seem to be for sale yet. I like the idea of a center zip bag with arm holes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH-Fka1GO8o&feature=player_embedded
Eurodriver
11-04-11, 21:24
My current strategy is to factor in wearing my cold weather clothing (Wild things Happy Suit) inside the bag. I think this is same thinking the USMC is going towards in their new bag.
...so now they get smart.
I never understood the logic (even though it worked) of designing a sleeping system that for best effect required you to get naked in order to keep warm...
variablebinary
11-05-11, 11:28
...so now they get smart.
I never understood the logic (even though it worked) of designing a sleeping system that for best effect required you to get naked in order to keep warm...
I own several types of sleeping bags, and have used the issue sleep system and a vietnam era sleeping bag.
I've tried sleeping in ACU's, but respiration and sweat will damn near kill you once you step out the bag. Even bags with a waterproof/breathable membrane still feel humid inside by morning.
I've tried sleeping in ACU's, but respiration and sweat will damn near kill you once you step out the bag. Even bags with a waterproof/breathable membrane still feel humid inside by morning.
For Fall, Winter, and Spring, my favorite clothing to wear in a sleeping bag is the Patagonia Capilene 2 (http://www.patagonia.com/eu/enNL/shop/mens-baselayer-capilene-2?k=1D-6M-9N) long sleeve and pants. They manage moisture much better than any Under Armour type garments.
Eurodriver
11-05-11, 14:32
I've tried sleeping in ACU's, but respiration and sweat will damn near kill you once you step out the bag. Even bags with a waterproof/breathable membrane still feel humid inside by morning.
There is a trick to that... assuming you have a tarp, a cot, and a truck ;)
The buttons on the tarp went down vertically from the bungee holding it to the truck, and the tarp was wrapped around the cot. It was right around freezing and I could sleep with the bag unzipped using it as a blanket.
Best few nights I ever spent in the field.
variablebinary
11-05-11, 16:45
For Fall, Winter, and Spring, my favorite clothing to wear in a sleeping bag is the Patagonia Capilene 2 (http://www.patagonia.com/eu/enNL/shop/mens-baselayer-capilene-2?k=1D-6M-9N) long sleeve and pants. They manage moisture much better than any Under Armour type garments.
These days I just sleep in undies with an APFU shirt. ACU's get stuffed in a pillow sack so they are warm when you put them on, but dry.
Although I'm only 6' tall, I always buy the "long" version of sleeping bags as that extra 6" in length provides a nice storage space at my feet for clothes that will already be warm when I put them on in the morning. When waking up in temperatures below 0*, having warm clothes to put on is worth carrying that extra 6" of bag.
Additionally, if a person is using a bag that isn't quite up to the task of the weather that is occurring, putting a couple of Nalgene bottles filled with hot water in the foot of the bag right before going to bed can help greatly, and will stay warm all night.
Lastly, it's a whole lot easier to partially unzip a -20* bag when it's -5* than it is to shiver all night in a 0* bag when it's -5*. I now try to always do the former as a result of too many nights doing the latter.
Belmont31R
11-05-11, 18:47
IMO the best way is layering, and make sure before you go to bed you are dry and have some clean clothes on. If you go to bed with sweaty nuts and feet all that moisture will cool down, stink up your bag, and just contributes to a bad sleep.
Yeah keeping clothes in the bag to put on the morning is a good trick.
As far as brands theres quite a few good ones. Ive used REI brand and North Face just fine. I would be an REI member if you are not already and buy it from them. They have excellent service and returns if anything should happen.
Also keep the bag stored draped over a cedar hanger and put some pieces of cedar in the bag, too. Unless you are allergic to it cedar is a natural anti bacterial source and will keep it fresh. Just take them out when you go to use the bag.
If the bag flattens out (compressed fill) a few golf balls in the dryer with the bag on low or no heat will restore the loft.
BlackBearHardware
11-19-11, 21:02
Looking for one that can go below 20.
Iraq Ninja posted some good follow up questions. Anyone could name several good bags that rate below 20 degrees, but this is a broad query.
I own and use Wiggy's, Snugpak, and Mountain Hardware bags.
Wiggy 0 degree bag - The "Lamilite" insulation they use is effective for warmth and durability, however in my experience the bag is heavy and bulky compared to modern down-filled bags. If I were to have a static survival type site where I needed to hunker down and stay warm, the Wiggy's sleep system is fantastic. The lamilate insulation is designed to have the benefits of synthetic durabilty and the benefits of down warmth. However, if you plan to put on miles of backpacking, it is not ideal.
Mountain Hardware Phantom 0 - Use this bag in 0-40 degree weather. I have NEVER been cold in this bag. This statement is relative as I have only pushed it to 20 degrees in the Smokies. It packs tighter and lighter than most 20 degree bags, and performs well by itself even without a liner. It packs down tight in a Sea to Summit compression sack and is extremely light for high-mile backpacking trips. (don't get down bags wet)
Snugpak Merlin 32 degree bag - Recently camped out with my boy in 30 degree weather. My Merlin is packed 24/7 in my RAID pack. It's my go to... but... you will freeze your ass off if it is 30 degrees and all you have is this bag. I was using a Snugpak liner and I was still cold at 5am. It is survivable, but the "comfort" level of this bag is 40 degrees and this is true. This bag is lightweight, durable, and packs tight. (I know this is not relevant to your "20 degree bag" query but I thought I would throw it in)
I would recommend with any sleep system that you ad the factor of a quality sleep mattress. For light and fast trips I use a short (3/4 length REI insulated mattress. For comfy/cozy trips I add a Thermarest foam pad.
Have to agree with High Tower, the 3 layer military system with bivy sack is standard issue for a reason....it works. I went through an entire winter mountain training package in Bridgeport, CA with mine and while nothing compares to the comfort of a warm barracks room (note the sarcasm....) it kept me warm and dry enough to keep on keeping on. You can usually pick one up pretty reasonable at any surplus store or USCAV.
VooDoo6Actual
11-22-11, 21:26
I have 3 different bags I use. Wiggy's, Mountain Hardwear & Snugpak.
I like the Wiggy's best for all round use. I was in a recent terrential downpour & even though the bag was WET I was warm.
I like this model for most applications:
Superlight
http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=64
If you layer it w/ FTRSS system it's heaven or even just layer sleeping clothing easy comfy warm to -20 degrees.
The weight is the only drawback (lamilite insulation) but not more than 10-20% more in weight comparatively.
The Mountain Hardwear is tough to beat BUT not as roomy cut and does not do as well when WET as the Wiggy's did.
I used a Snugpak in Trashcanistan & it sucked Dawg Balls big time. Lighter in weight than the others, it had cold spots, too tight a fit for my body etc...
This will also depend on how hot or cold a sleeper you are. For example, I used just the green "patrol" bag plus bivy from the MSS in high 20 degree temps (it was probably low 30's in the tent) with just thermal long johns, wool socks, and a beanie and was more than comfortable as far as temperature goes. I estimate I could have gone down into the lower 20's before I would have had to add layers...
Current trends for hikers and civvy outdoorsmen is lightweight backpacking. this dictates layering synthetic puffy coats, with 3/4 ultralight bags and ground cover as well as fleece.
they get the insulation value thru total dependance on synthetic fabrics that breathe very well and layering the clothing you carry for the worst expected weather with the lightweight bag. some outdoor knowledge on shelters and ground cover go a LONG way to reducing weight as well.
Base your expectations on what you have under you: a good R-value pad will negate a lot of heat loss. A poor pad and you might as well go out and lay naked on snow.
I sleep cold, and in Winter conditions in CO I use a Mountain Hardwear Ghost-SL, which does the trick quite well. I'd rather be so warm as to need to slightly unzip, than to shiver all night. I've tried both. I'll opt for the former every time.
the booties and hood in this extreme cold weather system are a fantastic addition to whatever sleep system you use. My experience ( and I would imagine most people here) is that my feet and/or head are the parts that get cold. Used these on my last cold weather survival training, and it was the warmest and driest that I have ever stayed in severe weather. We were in temps ranging from -17 F to -30 F.
http://www.unclesamsretailoutlet.com/US-MILITARY-EXTREME-COLD-WEATHER-SLEEP-SYSTEM-p/4029.htm
Look specifically at the booties and hood, like I mentioned. They dont take up to much space.
PS: I was sleeping in a snow cave, not a tent. No cot, just a 1/2" air matress.
SeriousStudent
12-05-11, 23:51
I would definitely agree about the booties and headgear.
You might take a look at Amazon. They had a very good deal on some of the Seirra Designs down booties. I bought a pair for my sister for a Christmas gift, and they were only $17, instead of the normal $45 retail price.
I agree with HOPLOETHOS that the snugpack is lacking, but because of its packable size ... I will have it with me.
However, combined with a bivy sack, my warmies and a ground pad, I have taken this sleeping bag comfortably down to ~0F.
I have gone out of my way to find how to make this system work, because being stuck for days with no sleeping system will change your life.
I agree with HOPLOETHOS that the snugpack is lacking, but because of its packable size ... I will have it with me.
Same here. I have an issue Gore-tex bivy sack that seems to help lock some heat in using my Elite 1.
I have been looking at the Nemo and Big Anges 2.5"-3" insulated sleeping mats for below freezing temps.
I always go with synthetic nowadays after an unfortunate incident with a wet down bag. I've been using a mountain hardware lamina 0 all winter and it's my new favorite bag for 10+ nights. Packs really small for a synthetic and weight in at 3 lbs 12 oz. regular $185 but you can get it shipped for $97 at alssports.com. Great deal.
Battle*Hound
02-20-12, 18:24
Any experiences with big agnes or marmot?
I highly recommend this bag:
http://www.military-sleeping-bags.com/defence6.html
I've used it in -25C under the open sky, with wool underwear, and I was sweating.
A few pointers on winter bivouacing:
1. Get off the ground with a good pad/sleeping mat. If you are staying a tent without a floor/inner tent or an improvised shelter, get some twigs or pine/spruce branches and cover the ground you are sleeping on.
2. Dry your clothes OUTSIDE of the sleeping bag. If you put wet clothes inside the bag, the moisture will start to evaporate and the bag will get clammy, and you get a crappy nights sleep. If you have a heat source, prioritize clothes to dry, ie socks, wool top, moisture wicking layer etc. Do not spend time trying to dry out larger items like jackets or trousers. If you are hiking, you will probably get sweaty the next day anyways.
Have a dry shift of socks and a t-shirt/wool top to use in the bag.
Modern hard shells, although I never use them, have the advantage that they freeze dry. Just let the moisture trapped in the garment freeze, and just remove the ice the next morning.
3. As with layering clothing, the same principles apply with a sleeping bag. It is the heated air that provides heat. All clothes do is mitigate heat loss in some form or another; transports moisture, insulates, protects from wind and rain). If you wear all your clothes in the bag, you will get cold, as the air inside the bag and in between the layers of clothes you have on does not get replaced, and gets cold.
4. When drying footwear, remove the insole to ensure proper circulation of air. A lot of moisture can be trapped inside the boot, underneath the insole. Newspaper pages can be used to wick away the moisture. Do not place your boots close to the heat source. Leather can get dried out, and synthetic boots can melt.
5. Breathe OUTSIDE the bag. If your head gets cold, wear a beanie or something. Your breath can cause the bag to get moist. Also, breathing CO2 all night can cause one hell of a headache.
6. Drink water before going to sleep. Max uptake is about 1,5 dl pr 15 minutes. You need more water in cold weather due to cold diuresis, which often leads to dehydration quicker in winter than in hot weather. You also do not have a profound thirst sensation in cold weather.
7. My personal opinion on hiking gear, is to stay away from Gore Tex stuff, especially foot wear, during winter. I usually go with cotton and wool, for outer shells, underwear and socks. I bring a Pac-Lite style oversuit pants and jacket for wet weather, and a JIB for heat.
Leather boots with overboots, combined with a good pair of wool socks, are great. If Gore-Tex boots get wet, they take forever to dry in the cold.
The reason for choosing cotton is that it can take more abuse than synthetic hard shells, and it doesn't melt if it comes in contact with a heat source or a spark from a fire.
I have been doing it this way in the military for 10 years, never had a cold or frost injury to myself or my soldiers. I do however see civilians go on expeditions and hiking trips, with all the latest Gore-Tex clothes, and they usually end up with some kind of frost injury.
...Modern hard shells, although I never use them, have the advantage that they freeze dry. Just let the moisture trapped in the garment freeze, and just remove the ice the next morning.
....
The reason for choosing cotton is that it can take more abuse than synthetic hard shells, and it doesn't melt if it comes in contact with a heat source or a spark from a fire.
I have been doing it this way in the military for 10 years, never had a cold or frost injury to myself or my soldiers. I do however see civilians go on expeditions and hiking trips, with all the latest Gore-Tex clothes, and they usually end up with some kind of frost injury.
Some interesting points. We get this whole "synthetic of best" and "cotton is death" thing so much that we tend to forget the lessons of the past.
personally I have done a great deal of work at altitudes of 8000ft layered with a cotton tshirt, flannel shirt,, polypro long-johns then wool outer layer, and simple costco wool socks and decent boots and been perfectly comfortable all day in spite of sweating. Seems like sweat more with synthetics I've been trying this season, and it's been hard to find that system that works.
I had a synthetic tight shirt on a couple of weeks ago on an outing and I couldnt get warm! even back at the house with the fire blazing and the ambient temp at 78 degrees I was still chilled til I took that shirt off.
My wool outer layer has proven itself in some pretty serious snow storms as the snow doesnt freeze and can be brushed off and you still stay warm.
IMO the best way is layering, and make sure before you go to bed you are dry and have some clean clothes on. If you go to bed with sweaty nuts and feet all that moisture will cool down, stink up your bag, and just contributes to a bad sleep.
Yeah keeping clothes in the bag to put on the morning is a good trick.
As far as brands theres quite a few good ones. Ive used REI brand and North Face just fine. I would be an REI member if you are not already and buy it from them. They have excellent service and returns if anything should happen.
Also keep the bag stored draped over a cedar hanger and put some pieces of cedar in the bag, too. Unless you are allergic to it cedar is a natural anti bacterial source and will keep it fresh. Just take them out when you go to use the bag.
If the bag flattens out (compressed fill) a few golf balls in the dryer with the bag on low or no heat will restore the loft.
tennis balls dude... golf balls in a dryer will make you want to leave the house and go play golf. or something...
:D
Some interesting points. We get this whole "synthetic of best" and "cotton is death" thing so much that we tend to forget the lessons of the past.
personally I have done a great deal of work at altitudes of 8000ft layered with a cotton tshirt, flannel shirt,, polypro long-johns then wool outer layer, and simple costco wool socks and decent boots and been perfectly comfortable all day in spite of sweating. Seems like sweat more with synthetics I've been trying this season, and it's been hard to find that system that works.
I had a synthetic tight shirt on a couple of weeks ago on an outing and I couldnt get warm! even back at the house with the fire blazing and the ambient temp at 78 degrees I was still chilled til I took that shirt off.
My wool outer layer has proven itself in some pretty serious snow storms as the snow doesnt freeze and can be brushed off and you still stay warm.
The main problem with Gore-Tex lined outer shells is the disonnect between the function of the lining/membrane, and the design features of the jacket.
A Gore-Tex (or any breathable waterproof shell) is a microporous membrane, allowing water to pass from the inside to the outside in order to transport moisture away from the body, while keeping the user dry and protected from outside moisture.
However, for this to work, there has to be a higher pressure on the inside of the garment than outside. For that to happen, all zippers must be closed, all adjustments must be cinched tight, cuffs must be closed etc. A complete a seal as possible. This will most likely make the user extremely warm, especially if hiking with a pack.
To counter that build up of body heat, most people will open the under arm zip's, cuffs, and open the front of the jacket. This cools down the user, but severely impedes the moisture transporting feature of the garment, and vapor from sweat can build up on the inside of the jacket, and you get wet anyway.
A poly-cotton blend will hold more water, but is generally warmer in static or slow moving situations and is more breathable in colder environments than Gore-Tex or other shells.
---------------------------------------
For storing and packing sleeping bags, it is important to always stuff the bag in the sack, never roll it. Stuffing it ensures less stress on the filling, as well as a more even distribution on the filling.
NitroDave08
02-21-12, 18:34
the standard military winter arctic sleeping bag. had the pleasure using it in korea waiting for the y 2 k. I don't know how cold it was but it was cold enough to freeze a water buffalo. and when you are at the military surplus store buy you a pair or 6 of the winner arctic sox. our tent heater would run out of fuel about 2 am still nice and toasty inside the sleeping bag. and when not in use for storage , would vacuum pack it and it would be a nice little package
I packed a Wiggy's bag into the woods once... then I bought my own. That thing was enormous and just devoured my pack. I swore those things off after that experience.
I have used TNF, Marmot, EMS, and a few other brands. I used to work for EMS so a lot of my gear I got while I worked there. My winter bag is a 0 degree 775 down fill EMS brand bag. I sleep cold (usually go 20 degree warmer in a bag than expected temps), but I've found when I use a good ground pad an a bivy sack I'm good to go down to the true bag rating.
The brand of the bag matters very little to me. I shop weight and features primarily. There are lot of quality brands that offer comparable, good quality bags.
My method was to pack my down bag in a waterproof compression sack, then drop that into my gore-tex bivy that I lined my pack with. I used it like a big garbage bag inside my pack.
My own preference was to use a tarp and the bivy instead of just a tent. I used to teach and lead trips, so the bivy could be lent to a cold student, or if the campsite sucked and there wasn't room under the tarp I could go off on my own, etc. The gore-tex bivy didn't weight much more or take up more space than a nice thick contractor grade liner bag for the pack, so once I bought it I almost always took it with me.
The tarp was more multipurpose for my needs and lighter than a tent.
In addition to the tips given... hot water bottles.
Boil your water before going to sleep, then fill your Nalgenes or whatever with the hot water, use them to preheat your sleeping bag before you climb in. Make sure you re-tighten the bottles a couple mins after filling them. Once the bottle gets up to temp it will leak as the cap won't be as tight (heat expands), so make sure you check it and crank it down a little more after a couple mins.
I usually parked one between my thighs (femoral arteries) and another by my feet (common cold spot) when I was winter camping. I kept my base layers for the next day inside the bag (wouldn't be cold as shit in the morning) and slept on top of my shell layers (under my sleeping pad) as the radiant body heat usually kept them from freezing solid (and it provides more insulation from the ground).
What I tended to do was throw a fleece over my face when I slept. I used a Patagonia R2 which is highly wind permeable, so it didn't restrict breathing, but it retained a little heat and kept my face from feeling like it would freeze. The outside of it might gather some frost, but it's easy to knock frost off of fabric in the morning.
Also, if you use double boots, rock your liners inside your sleeping bag at night. Frozen boots SUCK in the morning.
Last bit of advice, let your bag breathe when possible. If you get to camp early, or stop for a long break... bust out your bag in the sun and let some of the moisture escape while you can.
nineteenkilo
02-22-12, 09:30
Just out of curiosity, what will it be used for?
Any experiences with big agnes or marmot?
I've been fielding a Marmot +20 down for a number of years as my spring and fall bag. I'll take it down to 0 as long as I have deep enough snow for a snow trench or Quinzee. I'll throw in the MSS bivie if the weather is soggy.
Once the temp goes below that, I go to the issue MSS. The system is good and proven. Paired with a good shelter, it'll be warm and dry well into the negative numbers.
My experience is limited and living in Florida, well about the coldest it gets when I go camping is in the low 20s. Last weekend I bought and used for the first time a Snugpak Softie Elite 1. To be honest, it was almost the best sleeping bag I have ever used. Light, small, and kept me very comfortable. The expanda panel system was great for giving me enough room to feel comfortable. The only negative I had to say on it was that the zippering can be a bit bitchy. But by day three I had gotten most of the hang of it. Mind you the temps never got really cold (mid 50s). However by a bit of extrapolation, I am willing to bet that the Softie Elite 2 and 3 should get the job done for me at least. In fact I will be buying a 3 to get me through the coldest possible weather I will ever face in the south east. I did use mine in conjunction with a Big Agnes 2.5" thick air mattress. I switched to that from my REI self inflating 3.5" air mattress because I am starting to transition to more primitive outings. With my back I was concerned about that 1". That was much ado about nothing. The Big Agnes was more comfortable than the self inflating.
Kifaru slick bag. They make them in various ratings. 40-20-0-minus20*. With proper pad and wearing long underwear the ratings are accurate if not conservative. In the industry, they are usually over optimistic on the temp ratings-- kind of like velocity ratings on ammo. Kifaru is pretty accurate.
Very light weight and compressible bag. I love it... well worth the $$$
I don't have the regulator system.
tacdrivrnc
10-05-12, 21:54
Marmot bags, they can usually be found on sale many places on-line. They have some great 0-degree synthetic fill bags and come with good stuff sacks, and occasionally storage sacks too. I have a Trestles 0-degree from a couple years ago and it had a sipper on each side for venting, and a nice thick neck and zipper baffles. Backcountry has them now for $140, which is a good price for a bag this warm. It's not the lightest, but it's hard to go real light in winter and still stay warm. You could go with something lighter, but far more expensive, with a down bag, but then you have to be vigilant about keeping it dry.
Heavy Metal
10-05-12, 22:37
the booties and hood in this extreme cold weather system are a fantastic addition to whatever sleep system you use. My experience ( and I would imagine most people here) is that my feet and/or head are the parts that get cold. Used these on my last cold weather survival training, and it was the warmest and driest that I have ever stayed in severe weather. We were in temps ranging from -17 F to -30 F.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/230646304727?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y
Look specifically at the booties and hood, like I mentioned. They dont take up to much space.
PS: I was sleeping in a snow cave, not a tent. No cot, just a 1/2" air matress.
The Feet, Back (above the Kidneys) and the Head radiate more heat than anywhere else on your body.
This is the best sleeping bag maker in the world in my opinion and many professional alpine climbers opinions as well.
I have their 0 degree and their minus 30 degree bags and they are bomber and warmer than their rating. I use a silk cocoon liner in all bags to protect the bag, increase warmth and act as a sheet in when warm weather makes you keep the bag unzipped. I also keep a warm beanie and down booties in both bags to wear while sleeping. The bags are works of art.
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/
I use synthetic fill bags for anything warmer than 0 degrees and am in the market for a replacement for my Sierra Designs 20 degree synthetic that has come to the end of its life cycle I think.
I also own 3 different types of Bivy Sack/Tents for certain occasions. Bivy sack, 2 pole Bivy and a Tripod Bivy.
I do like Gore Tex for certain applications. I was one of the testers for Gore Tex testing their Pac Lite back in the day. Arctic one is right in that most people do not really understand GoreTex as it works by a form of osmosis and is best in extremely dry climates (i.e. extreme cold) so that the dry air pulls the humid air thru... when they try and sell you GoreTex for wet climates it doesn't work much better than rubber for evaporation transfer... humid on both sides of membrane and there is little movement of moisture thru the membrane. GoreTex in hot weather is a plastic sack.
TacticalTyler
10-10-12, 07:33
I highly recommend this bag:
http://www.military-sleeping-bags.com/defence6.html
ya know I been to that site before an they have great stuff and would love one of their sleep systems. But where do you buy it?! It's all European. I see no American distributors of those products.
Also does anyone Reccomend using a hammock in conjunction with any sleep system? Is that better then staying off the ground? Or does it get colder since air can flow underneath you?
just a scout
10-10-12, 07:36
I have a Kifaru bag rated for 20F. Light, packs small, warm. Little too slick, but good. And ifi get too cold, I pull a woodie in with me.
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just a scout
10-10-12, 07:40
As for a hammock, back in the day, I'd put the mil sleeping pad in the hammock under me. It was ok, warm enough, but I think there's better systems out now. One guy on my team used to use those reflective panels for the windshield s a pad in his hammock. But he also carried a teddy bear to the field, too. (Loooong story)
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nineteenkilo
10-10-12, 07:48
Also does anyone Reccomend using a hammock in conjunction with any sleep system? Is that better then staying off the ground? Or does it get colder since air can flow underneath you?
I wouldn't trade my Hennessy Hammock for anything in the field. Best thing I have ever owned for sleeping outside. We don't get much cold weather here per se, but I use a reflective pad on the bottom when it gets below 30F or so.
I have a Kifaru bag rated for 20F. Light, packs small, warm. Little too slick, but good. And ifi get too cold, I pull a woodie in with me.
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Hopefully you're only pulling your own there...:blink: :haha:
TacticalTyler
10-10-12, 09:01
Good to know about the hammock, there Soo compact an easy to use I was just wondering why more people didn't bring it up with their sleep systems. Now, does anybody know where to get a decent bivy bag? Outdoor research has a nice one, but nothing in the colors I want. I would like something dark green. Anything that blends really.
I use the Hennessy Hammocks in the jungle, but never in cold weather.
In the jungle I originally used a standard hammock with a a thermarest or sleep pad in it and a silk coccoon bag liner and a Gore Windstopper blanket and a tarp.
Hang hammock put pad in then hang tarp above to keep rain and falling crap and critters off of you. Then slide in silk bag and pull it up tight around you and use Gore Windstopper blanket as needed. The great thing about the Windstoppr blanket is it is very water resistant. The silk liner bag is keep you warm or cool when needed packs tiny and will not melt like synthetic bag liners when exposed to Deet. Then prepare for the rats to crawl on you all night long:eek:
Or use a Hennessy Hammock design and make it alot easier on yourself. They come in MANY configurations, so you should be able to find a mission specific version to suit your needs.
nineteenkilo
10-10-12, 14:54
Mine is a Explorer Deluxe Asym Zip by Hennessy. In the cold I use the pad (either reflective or Thermarest Ridgerest) and then slide my ECWS bivy with liners inside. No wind, no wet, no bugs, and most importantly - no ground!
It takes me about 3-5 minutes to take down using the Snakeskins and nothing ever touches the ground.
If you decide to the hammock route, you can use the included tarp with an improvised 550 cord ridge line to lower the coverage of the tarp on both sides if you REALLY want to snug it up. I rarely have occasion to do this.
just a scout
10-10-12, 17:01
Hopefully you're only pulling your own there...:blink: :haha:
I meant WOOBIE! Damn autocorrect......
Shut up. Nothing to see here. And I don't think you're allowed to ask me about that anymore.;)
ya know I been to that site before an they have great stuff and would love one of their sleep systems. But where do you buy it?! It's all European. I see no American distributors of those products.
Also does anyone Reccomend using a hammock in conjunction with any sleep system? Is that better then staying off the ground? Or does it get colder since air can flow underneath you?
Huh...that's weird that they don't have a distributor in the US.
You could try contacting them via e-mail.
Getting off the ground is always good, as it results in reduced heat loss from conduction. I am not sure if I would use a hammock during winter though, I would rather build a shelter with logs/sticks to get off the ground. Or build something with the snow.
But having used both a hammock and a field cot a lot, it gets cold if you do not have an insulating layer between the sleeping bag and hammock/cot surface.
TacticalTyler
10-11-12, 10:08
Huh...that's weird that they don't have a distributor in the US.
You could try contacting them via e-mail.
Getting off the ground is always good, as it results in reduced heat loss from conduction. I am not sure if I would use a hammock during winter though, I would rather build a shelter with logs/sticks to get off the ground. Or build something with the snow.
But having used both a hammock and a field cot a lot, it gets cold if you do not have an insulating layer between the sleeping bag and hammock/cot surface. ya if you look on their website it's all European countries , an currency is European as well. I couldn't find nothing here state side like what they have. Only thing I can think of is ecws bivy bag.
albertanhb
11-19-12, 21:13
I have to agree with Artic 1, Goretex in certain climates just is not your best option. I guide and outfit up here in Canada and I very rarely use Gortex gear. We use just about wool everything from pants to coats and underwear. For our sleeping systems pending on our situation we use the military type layering system. Or if weight isn't a factor I will use a good Asolo cold weather bag and a ranger blanket with a cowboy bed roll ( boat canvas made bedroll with storm flap). When I served they were just coming out with the gortex biv bags and I will say they were nice and worked well but you did wake up with a damp bag. That being said it doesn't matter what bag you use in a cold weather situation. If you cannot get near a heat source after 3 + days you will have a damp bag no matter what. Everything needs a chance to breathe and dry out. IMHO.
I'm a pretty cold sleeper, so here's how I do it.
Wiggys 20 degree bag, XPed Synmat 7 basic pad, issue goretext bivy bag, Wild Things puffy jacket and pants (Army equivalent of the USMC "happy suit"), down booties with fresh dry wool socks, and a couple of hot nalgene bottles.
That combo does me fine down below 0 degrees. Again, I'm a pretty cold sleeper. Using a normal pad and sleeping naked (or in light long underwear) I would always be cold and need a much warmer sleeping bag than what the bag was rated for. Like a -20 bag for a +10F night. Not anymore.
The key things that allow me to go much colder than the bag rating are using a really good pad (My XPed has an R value of 4...vs like R1 for my old thermarest) and wearing the puffy suit. The puffy suit is basically a wearable sleeping bag in itself.
Its been great to save all that room in my pack by not using a complete MSS. I figure I'm saving 4lbs of weight and maybe 1000 cubic inches (?) in my pack...and sleeping warmer to boot!
I have to agree with Artic 1, Goretex in certain climates just is not your best option. I guide and outfit up here in Canada and I very rarely use Gortex gear. We use just about wool everything from pants to coats and underwear. For our sleeping systems pending on our situation we use the military type layering system. Or if weight isn't a factor I will use a good Asolo cold weather bag and a ranger blanket with a cowboy bed roll ( boat canvas made bedroll with storm flap). When I served they were just coming out with the gortex biv bags and I will say they were nice and worked well but you did wake up with a damp bag. That being said it doesn't matter what bag you use in a cold weather situation. If you cannot get near a heat source after 3 + days you will have a damp bag no matter what. Everything needs a chance to breathe and dry out. IMHO.
After speaking with a Gore-Tex rep, going through a live demo, and using my own experiences I'd say you're spot on. Gore-Tex requires a specific set of circumstances to function optimally. I've had a lot of success using the MSS with Gore-Tex bivy, but YMMV.
Also check out some hybrid merino wool/synthetic base layer garments such as the North Face 'summit series' base layers. The synthetic part of the garment has a similar particle treatment to Patagonia's Capilene for moisture management while the merino wool portion does it's job well.
Also does anyone Reccomend using a hammock in conjunction with any sleep system? Is that better then staying off the ground? Or does it get colder since air can flow underneath you?
Yes, you'll have a constant flow of cool air below you. True, you can do things to help mitigate that, but why handicap your insulated habitat?
Don't know about Norway, but the rest of the world snow is a great insulator and will keep you at a constant ambient temperature if you can get into it and just keep an insulating layer between you and the snow. Hanging in a hammock with cold air under you is going to kill you. Repeat KILL you. Stay out of the wind! Sled dogs and most wild animals in severe winter climates use the snow as an insulator. Sled dogs sleep in snow, ice caves are good, wind is bad, when I go ice climbing I stick all of my beer and water bottles under the snow and they do not freeze during the day as the snow keeps them insulated. Leave them in the wind and they quickly are Barley & Hoppcicles! Don't sleep in the wind and become a Barley&Hoppcicle!
If you really want to learn about cold weather camping go to an alpine of ice climbing website.
My hidden horde
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_2208.jpg
My perfectly chilled precious having survived 14 hours under the snow 5am to 7pm and not frozen
http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr280/45Fundi/IMG_2209-1.jpg
Well, I did not recommend using a hammock during winter did I?
There is also a difference between insulating something, as in you packing your beer in snow, and heat loss through conduction.
Heat loss from conduction is quite significant when lying on top of the snow. It is reduced when using a sleeping mat, but it can still be a factor if the mat is too thin.
Building a shelter a few inches off the ground with logs, between two trees, insulating the "bed" with conifer branches is A LOT better than lying directly on the snow as there is no heat loss from conduction, and very little from convection as you are insulated by the conifer branches.
Building a snow cave, or other snow shelter, that's where the insulating properties of snow comes to life. Ref your example with the beer. Another example is small rodents living close to the ground during winter, under the snow. Much warmer there, than above the snow.
Your info is invaluable Arctic1...I thought you were suggesting something cot like... as even lifting off of the snow if you have air "moving" under you it is still stripping you of warmth. You as you have said correctly need a barrier against convection, but air movement will be as bad or worse than convection. Now a barrier and trapped air is best which is the correct way to use snow and ice.
I am completely intrigued now if a properly insulated Hennessy Hammoch can be made alpine winter worthy in high winds. It is actually cold here now (not real cold) but worth maybe me giving it a 35 degree weather test. I think this week I will try and rig my Hennessy Hammoch with a Thermarest and a Zero Degree bag and hang it in the wind and see how it fairs. Finding some wind might be difficult.
LMT Shooter
12-31-12, 02:01
I have very little experience with other brands, but I love my Wiggys bags. I've had the FTRSS for years, no issues, very warm & comfy. I feel like I sleep a lot drier than I have in other bags, too. Being American made never hurts, either.
Your info is invaluable Arctic1...I thought you were suggesting something cot like... as even lifting off of the snow if you have air "moving" under you it is still stripping you of warmth. You as you have said correctly need a barrier against convection, but air movement will be as bad or worse than convection. Now a barrier and trapped air is best which is the correct way to use snow and ice.
I am completely intrigued now if a properly insulated Hennessy Hammoch can be made alpine winter worthy in high winds. It is actually cold here now (not real cold) but worth maybe me giving it a 35 degree weather test. I think this week I will try and rig my Hennessy Hammoch with a Thermarest and a Zero Degree bag and hang it in the wind and see how it fairs. Finding some wind might be difficult.
Just to clarify, heat loss via conduction is from directly touching something (transfer of heat from a warm body to a cold body). Heat loss from convection is mostly from wind (displacement of warm air next to body and inside the clothing by cold outside air).
The two remaining heat loss mechanisms are radiation and evaporation.
Having some cold air flowing under you is no problem. You actually want some passive convection in your shelter, to prevent condensation from forming.
Also, if you have a windproof sleeping bag or bivvy bag over your sleeping bag or a tent for that matter, heat loss from convection is no problem. If you lack protective sleeping systems, like tents, sleeping mats, sleeping bags etc and you have to improvise, then I agree that digging in would be the best option to reduce the effects of heat loss from convection. Insulate yourself from the gound via conifer branches, or whatever is available.
The last mechanism to prevent heat loss from convection is of course a heat source; fire, heated rocks, field stove etc.
The coldest temp I have slept in, without a shelter, is -30C. Old issue sleeping mat (about 10mm thick), old issue sleeping bag and I was wearing Woolpower long johns and overshirt, plus wool socks. There was no wind. I wasn't freezing, it was quite comfortable, although not warm.
Your info is invaluable Arctic1...I thought you were suggesting something cot like... as even lifting off of the snow if you have air "moving" under you it is still stripping you of warmth. You as you have said correctly need a barrier against convection, but air movement will be as bad or worse than convection. Now a barrier and trapped air is best which is the correct way to use snow and ice.
I am completely intrigued now if a properly insulated Hennessy Hammoch can be made alpine winter worthy in high winds. It is actually cold here now (not real cold) but worth maybe me giving it a 35 degree weather test. I think this week I will try and rig my Hennessy Hammoch with a Thermarest and a Zero Degree bag and hang it in the wind and see how it fairs. Finding some wind might be difficult.
I'll state from experience at close to 20F that if you do not have a ground pad or some sort of non compressible insulation under you while in a hammock that even a FTRSS bag system will not keep you warm on the bottom side. the insulation compresses and heat pours out of you. This is true even at warmer temps like 40 or 50.
Good news is that a lightweight solution is that reflective bubble wrap you can buy at the hardware store for insulating floors and water heaters and stuff is super light and works pretty well for most temps you'll be out in.
Just to clarify, heat loss via conduction is from directly touching something (transfer of heat from a warm body to a cold body). Heat loss from convection is mostly from wind (displacement of warm air next to body and inside the clothing by cold outside air).
The two remaining heat loss mechanisms are radiation and evaporation.
Having some cold air flowing under you is no problem. You actually want some passive convection in your shelter, to prevent condensation from forming.
Also, if you have a windproof sleeping bag or bivvy bag over your sleeping bag or a tent for that matter, heat loss from convection is no problem. If you lack protective sleeping systems, like tents, sleeping mats, sleeping bags etc and you have to improvise, then I agree that digging in would be the best option to reduce the effects of heat loss from convection. Insulate yourself from the gound via conifer branches, or whatever is available.
The last mechanism to prevent heat loss from convection is of course a heat source; fire, heated rocks, field stove etc.
The coldest temp I have slept in, without a shelter, is -30C. Old issue sleeping mat (about 10mm thick), old issue sleeping bag and I was wearing Woolpower long johns and overshirt, plus wool socks. There was no wind. I wasn't freezing, it was quite comfortable, although not warm.
Thanks for the clarification. I knew I was using the wrong word, but was too tired the other night to pull "conduction" out of the back of my brain:confused:
I have slept the minus 40F a few times and don't recommend it. My dog really would get pissed when I made him do it. He was fine hunting in minus 30 when he was moving, but sleeping in it made him pretty grumpy. I had a Bibler Fitzroy Tent, TRest, Western Mountaineering minus 30 or Zero Degree Bag with silk liner. I swear by silk liners for everything. The Toddtex in the Bibler keeps the condensation OK, of course anything slick on the floor gets wet especially with a dog in the tent:rolleyes:
DevilDoc1138
01-18-13, 20:17
Personally, I am a great fan of the marine corps sleep system. Its relatively small for packing and always warm enough.
Wife and kids were out of town last night so I slept out in my MSS. I'm in Vermont and we went low single digits with a howling wind. I was warm all night and the bivy kept the wind out. System is bulky for packing in but it damned well does the job.
I just ordered a Wiggy's Super Light in MARPAT (http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=271), since the sale was still going on. $130 + free shipping sounded good.
What does everyone think of their stuff sacks? Is there a better one to get this bag as small as possible?
bleaman225
01-23-13, 22:55
I used a Zpacks 20 degree for the first 500 miles of my AT thru-hike this past spring/summer...
http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/sleepingbag.shtm
After that I swapped out to my Jacks-R-Better 45 degree for the remaining 1700 miles...
http://www.jacksrbetter.com/shop/sierra-stealth/
They are both highly recommended by me, weigh that how you will. Dependent on the expected temperatures you're going to facing, I think both items are at the top of their game. Durable as hell too.
I just ordered a Wiggy's Super Light in MARPAT (http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=271)...
This bag is badass. Excellent craftsmanship however, it doesn't compress as much as I hoped it would (compresses to about basketball size).
So...
I ended up calling Jerry Wigutow (CEO Wiggy's answers the phones). I told him I needed a more packable cold weather bag. He explained why I should order the FTRSS Over-bag, which by itself, is a 35 degree bag. The Over-bag also compresses to 1/3 the size of the Zero Degree Super Light. Combined the two bags are rated to -40.
Great guy, quality American-Made products.
whiskey lake
04-05-13, 16:21
I am 6'4" and use a military sleep system and am very happy with it down to -10 or -20 deg f but don't really like to pack it on my back due to weight. The bivvy makes it nice. I would not recommend it for anyone a cm taller than me.
I know the military "sleep systems" will work from experience. If you are tall (6'4"+) I would not advise one.
There are quite a few options out there and depending on your needs - weight, colors, size, price etc - it will be easy enough to find one. I wouldn't do internet shopping on stuff like this as I prefer to actually see the product before I buy it. Check out camping/backpacking/outdoorsy stores like REI.
http://www.snugpak.com/index.php?MenuID=160-131
That link will be a good start. They work well and compact pretty small.
The military sleep systems are great. I own one. I like the fact I can change the layers around or out depending on weather. The goretex Bivy repels water pretty well if you're not in a puddle.
I just ordered a Wiggy's Super Light in MARPAT (http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=271), since the sale was still going on. $130 + free shipping sounded good.
What does everyone think of their stuff sacks? Is there a better one to get this bag as small as possible?
wiggys stuff sacks are heavy and bulky compared to Tactical tailor. but if you need to compress a set of tire chains...
wiggys stuff sacks are heavy and bulky compared to Tactical tailor. but if you need to compress a set of tire chains...
Good to know. I thought they were a little overkill.
Thanks for the info.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The MSS is still available in new condition at an affordable price and a bargain for what's included.
http://www.unclesamsretailoutlet.com/Tennier-Industries-Modular-Sleep-System-never-iss-p/549.htm
Hard to beat for a system that fits a SHTF, car camping, winter bag for emergencies, in the car trunk if needed, etc. requirements. Weight be damned.
Just so you know, the sleeping bag ratings (at least the EU's EN13537 ratings, which I believe are the only "official" ratings around) assume that you are wearing a base layer and a hat inside the bag and are using a sleeping pad with R value of 4. Wearing less may mean the bag isn't as warm as its rating. For me, a cold sleeper, a bag is never as warm as its rating anyway. Individual "thermostats" can differ a lot.
For me, a cold sleeper, a bag is never as warm as its rating anyway.
I've always found the ratings to be rather optimistic, even on the $1K+ bags.
This bag is badass. Excellent craftsmanship however, it doesn't compress as much as I hoped it would (compresses to about basketball size).
So...
I ended up calling Jerry Wigutow (CEO Wiggy's answers the phones). I told him I needed a more packable cold weather bag. He explained why I should order the FTRSS Over-bag, which by itself, is a 35 degree bag. The Over-bag also compresses to 1/3 the size of the Zero Degree Super Light. Combined the two bags are rated to -40.
Great guy, quality American-Made products.
just read this again and see that his system mirrors the MSS. is there an advantage in weight (got to be, right?) or compressibility?
I bought whole MSS for $100 and it was claimed to be new. I didn't find anything to refute that. it is heavy but I think I will sell off the black inner bag and replace it with some other kind of bag. maybe a Wiggys if it's that much lighter... :)
edit: I want to add that any inner bag is going to have to be a synthetic fill as down relies on loft and the temp rating would be seriously compromised by the weight of an outer bag...
Honorthecall81
10-09-14, 19:53
+1 Military sleep system
Wiggy's is having a good sale right now for those interested.
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