View Full Version : Can we start a list of "good value" handguns?
1. Mosin-Nagant M91/30 7.62X54R for $109 DELIVERED
2. New Ruger LCP .380 for $289 DELIVERED
3. S&W Sigma SW9VE 9mm Black/Stainless for $289 DELIVERED
4. S&W Sigma SW40VE .40SW Black/Stainless for $289 DELIVERED
5. Ruger LC9 7+1 9mm Bl 3 dot Adj Sts for $340 DELIVERED
6. Bushmaster CAR15 223 16 BSH REDD DOT for $699 DELIVERED
7. Hi-Point 34510 45ACP/P 45ACP 9RD POLYMEER for $177 DELIVERED
8. Ruger SR9c 9mm Compact Black for $398 DELIVERED
9. Taurus 24/7-9SSP17 9MM PRO SS for $375 DELIVERED
10. Ruger 22/45 Mark III 22LR 5.5" Blued ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS for $259 DELIVERED
11. Ruger SR9c 9mm Compact for $398 DELIVERED
12. Rock Island Armory GI M1911A1 Mil Spec .45 for $380 DELIVERED
13. Mossberg Tactical 22LR Adjustable Stock 25rd Magazine for $249 DELIVERED
14. Kahr Arms 7 + 1 Round 9MM w/3.5" Barrel/Polymer/Stainless for $371 DELIVERED
15. Taurus M1911 45 Stainless W/Gold Highlights for $504 DELIVERED
I saw a thread the other day on another forum showing Bud's Gunshop's top selling guns. The first thing that I though was, "Goddamn most gun owners are cheap MFers." and the other was, "What else could these folks have gotten for the same or not much more money?" My goal here is to have some inexpensive quality options to nudge the people towards that don't know what they don't know away from garbage like Taurus and Ruger for semi auto handguns at a pricepoint of $400 street price or less.
Nephrology
10-19-11, 08:02
Most used Glocks will not go for much over 400, particularly the .40 cal models - I see used Gen 3/2 Glock 22s go for ~350 all the time.
S&W 3rd gen semi autos are fantastic guns and I have never seen them go for more than 375 before tax.
For those really in a pinch used &W or Ruger wheelguns can often be found used for ~300-350 or so. Model 10s Security Sixes Gp100s etc.
Guns attract retards like moths to a porch light.
eternal24k
10-19-11, 08:47
Simple:
Polymer: Glock (or M&P if you want to deviate or do not like the grip angle or styling of the Glock)
Steel: W German P226 or CZ 75
those would be the main 4 best value handguns in my opinion. There are other platforms that are great, but getting a popular platform means more and often cheaper holsters, sights, etc.
I will never get the people who do not get that new junk is not better than used quality.
I saw a thread the other day on another forum showing Bud's Gunshop's top selling guns. The first thing that I though was, "Goddamn most gun owners are cheap MFers." and the other was, "What else could these folks have gotten for the same or not much more money?" My goal here is to have some inexpensive quality options to nudge the people towards that don't know what they don't know away from garbage like Taurus and Ruger for semi auto handguns at a pricepoint of $400 street price or less.
WOW! :suicide2:
That's like a list off all the guns that I would NEVER OWN!
C4
WOW! :suicide2:
That's like a list off all the guns that I would NEVER OWN!
C4
Not even a Glock or M&P on the list. I'd take a used one of those any day over a new pistol off the list.
S&W M&P $450
Glock GEN 3 $500
Walther PPQ $550
Walther PPS $550
S&W E-Series $1050
Colt Rail Gun $1100
S&W 442 $330
HK P7 $500-$600
C4
S&W M&P $450
Glock GEN 3 $500
Walther PPQ $550
Walther PPS $550
S&W E-Series $1050
Colt Rail Gun $1100
S&W 442 $330
HK P7 $500-$600
C4
Used West German Sig Sauer P226 or P228 9mm: $500
Used West German Sig Sauer P226 or P228 9mm: $500
Yep.
C4
HK 45c
Hk usp
sig 239 for concealed carry
Kimber tle II
i think the point of the thread is there anything worth a damn for less than $400 new?
im pretty sure everyone here would rather buy a long pointy stick for $100 than a hi point, but is there even anything in the $200 range?
what about $300?
looks like ruger and taurus are at the $400 price point. from my exp id take the ruger over taurus.
i think the point of the thread is there anything worth a damn for less than $400 new?
im pretty sure everyone here would rather buy a long pointy stick for $100 than a hi point, but is there even anything in the $200 range?
what about $300?
looks like ruger and taurus are at the $400 price point. from my exp id take the ruger over taurus.
Used S&W revolver?
I think that if you can't afford a $400-$500 pistol, then you're going to have a lot of trouble feeding it with good magazines and ammunition. Not to mention getting enough training time in to become proficient to fight an opponent.....which is pretty much why people by a handgun in the first place.
Used S&W revolver?
I think that if you can't afford a $400-$500 pistol, then you're going to have a lot of trouble feeding it with good magazines and ammunition. Not to mention getting enough training time in to become proficient to fight an opponent.....which is pretty much why people by a handgun in the first place.
You are so wrong! :D
People believe the following:
1. All guns are equal in quality and capability.
2. You CAN get a good combat pistol for under $300.
3. Practice includes attending a CCW course (to get ones license) and then shooting at beer cans once a year.
4. No training needed as their Uncle (on their Mothers side) was in the Army and has taught them to shoot when they were 10. That fact coupled with the fact that they have a penis is all they need to know how to shoot well.
C4
Nephrology
10-19-11, 10:44
S&W M&P $450
Glock GEN 3 $500
Walther PPQ $550
Walther PPS $550
S&W E-Series $1050
Colt Rail Gun $1100
S&W 442 $330
HK P7 $500-$600
C4
Keep in mind that used those guns can be had for much less, too. I have never bought a new Glock. My most recent pistol was a used Police trade in Glock 26 - 400 dollars + 10 dollar background check fee out the door.
Nephrology
10-19-11, 10:45
Used S&W revolver?
I think that if you can't afford a $400-$500 pistol, then you're going to have a lot of trouble feeding it with good magazines and ammunition. Not to mention getting enough training time in to become proficient to fight an opponent.....which is pretty much why people by a handgun in the first place.
I believe in certain circumstances for certain people it is better to be armed than not. I know that if my sister moved into a bad neighborhood I would rather spend a weekend training her as well as I could with a 300 dollar .38 special than let her go unarmed.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-19-11, 10:53
You are so wrong! :D
People believe the following:
1. All guns are equal in quality and capability.
2. You CAN get a good combat pistol for under $300.
3. Practice includes attending a CCW course (to get ones license) and then shooting at beer cans once a year.
4. No training needed as their Uncle (on their Mothers side) was in the Army and has taught them to shoot when they were 10. That fact coupled with the fact that they have a penis is all they need to know how to shoot well.
C4
Truer words hath not been spoken, unfortunately :rolleyes:. Working at a gun shop I've all but given up on trying to save people from their own stupidity. For the most part I just nod, smile and let them be on their merry way. Where I work we sell more LCP's, LC9's and those POS Keltecs than anything else.
While I wouldn't volunteer to get shot by a .380 pocket pistol I also wouldn't count on it to save my life, I'm a firm believer the .380 gives people a false sense of security. All of those small pocket pistols are finicky with reliability, coupled with the fact that at most you have six rounds of highly underpowered .380 ammunition. It's a one assailant gun at best; and thats assuming that said assailant isn't pumped up on meth.
Mosin-Nagant M91/30 7.62X54R for $109 DELIVERED
:confused:
Bad Medicine
10-19-11, 11:16
I have a friend that just bought an LCP 9 he swears its the greatest little gun he has ever picked up. I'd say for $400 he has wasted his money on garbage, but at least he didn't stoop low enough to buy a Kel-Tech like he was planning to do in the first place. Same guy also thinks Kel-Tech makes awesome rifles as well.
RepeatDefender
10-19-11, 12:09
I agree on the used guns. Last used pistol I bought was an M&P9c with 4 mags for $425. Well worth the price.
WOW! :suicide2:
That's like a list off all the guns that I would NEVER OWN!
C4
Thats the FIRST thing I thought.
All the guns I would never own...but also guns that people always want to tell you how good they are haha
4. ...That fact coupled with the fact that they have a penis is all they need to know how to shoot well.
Hey, I practice weapons manipulation every day on mine! It's important to use at least SOME form of lube when cleaning, too.
I'd also like to second the M&P. There really is no better value (for me, at least). But unfortunately, here in California in the Bay Area, you can't find a new one for under $530. Everything's expensive out here. I think it's important to keep in mind geography as well. Sure, you can pick up an M&P for maybe $450 from an online dealer, but add in DROS and ridiculous transfer fees in the Bay and you're looking at about $550 anyway.
*Edit: If we're considering used guns too, then that's a different story.
legumeofterror
10-19-11, 12:49
i think the point of the thread is there anything worth a damn for less than $400 new?
im pretty sure everyone here would rather buy a long pointy stick for $100 than a hi point, but is there even anything in the $200 range?
what about $300?
looks like ruger and taurus are at the $400 price point. from my exp id take the ruger over taurus.
There are a few very good surplus pistols that can be had for ~$200, like the vz.82, P64, and PA-63. They might not fit the standards of a modern "combat pistol" but they will function reliably and perform well if one can not afford a more expensive handgun, and there are worse calibers than 9x18mm.
The newest version SW9VE has been 100% reliable in my experience, but with a shitty trigger for the first 1200rnds give or take. Wife and I picked up a couple used at $200 each one gunshow, used them as camp/truck guns and they got a lot of rounds without any failures. That would put them in the good value category for me. The Ruger LC9 is another I've found to be 100%, but I'm not real keen on the trigger reset. All depends on the persons budget...a cheaper, but reliable firearm is better than nothing in many cases.
Beat Trash
10-19-11, 13:53
I saw a thread the other day on another forum showing Bud's Gunshop's top selling guns. The first thing that I though was, "Goddamn most gun owners are cheap MFers." and the other was, "What else could these folks have gotten for the same or not much more money?" My goal here is to have some inexpensive quality options to nudge the people towards that don't know what they don't know away from garbage like Taurus and Ruger for semi auto handguns at a pricepoint of $400 street price or less.
The key word here is quality. I take that to mean value for your dollar. A quality defensive gun that can provide a lifetime of service for as little money as possible.
To me the following guns, new or used, are on my list:
M&P's
Glock (gen 3's)
S&W 642/442
While some guns like the M&P and the Glock are going to be above the $400 mark for new guns, the service life justifies the extra $100 or so in my opinion.
Money spent on crap is money wasted.
-Gen 3 or Gen 2 Glock, particularly a G17 or G19
-Ruger P89
-Ruger GP100
-Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six
-CZ 82 or 83 (particularly in 9 X 18 Makarov, due to that slightly more potent chambering (compared to .380) and their polygonal rifling (only available in CZ82/83s chambered in 9 X 18), increasing velocity
-SIG-Sauer P225/P6 (preferably the P225, due to its lighter mainspring and von Stavenhagen bar-dot sights)
-Beretta 92 (now considered a bit large/heavy and "old school," but still quite reliable and excellent performers)
-Walther P38/P1-Especially ones made 1974 or later, with strengthened frames and slides, and improved sights
Best, Jon
-Ruger GP100
-Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six
Yep.
At some point, you have to start considering revolvers.
I'd add the various Colt revolvers and S&W K-frames in 38 and/or 357, IF you can find them for under $400. Collectors have driven up the prices for clean, desirable examples, but beaters are still affordable.
Okie John
Nephrology
10-19-11, 15:44
I had forgotten some of the combloc staples. The CZ82/83 family is really pretty decent for the money. Not the most high speed low drag gun ever but Travis Haley has been using one in his recent HSP videos on youtube.
ill add a vote for the ruger sr9c. awesome gun for the money and for me fit my hand PERFECT. wish i kept it.
polydeuces
10-19-11, 20:35
Taurus 1911 w gold highlights....a top seller.....@$504.00......AWESOME - I want pictures!
What decision making process was involved in getting that train-wreck on a bestseller list...Holy Shit! Just wondering after looking at that list, does this mean the majority of people buying firearms are retarded?
Seriously, best pistol-for-the-money deal - going by msrp and staying with what i've owned, I'd say S&W M&P, Glock. Then used (german) Sig P226.
TacMedic556
10-19-11, 20:42
WOW! :suicide2:
That's like a list off all the guns that I would NEVER OWN!
C4
I could not agree more. That list is mostly throw away guns, ditch guns, and as C4 wisely put it, "guns I would never own".
Buy a good one and learn it. Whether its a Glock, S&W, HK, good 1911, etc.
"Beware of the man with one gun, because he knows how to use it".
PA PATRIOT
10-19-11, 22:07
Never paid more then $375.00 out the door for any of the used 2nd and early 3rd Gen Glocks I own. Most were like new in box trade In's from those up-grading Gen's or moving to other manufacturers. Just time and being selective let me save a lot of cash over the years.
i think the point of the thread is there anything worth a damn for less than $400 new?
This is what I was aiming for. For whatever reason some folks are gunshy about buying a used gun.
How about the S&W SD series? Sig SP2022? FNP series? Wheel guns?
warpedcamshaft
10-19-11, 23:29
I think the Ruger P95 could be a decent choice for a new gun in the low budget range.
It is my understanding that they are fairly durable and reliable.
CZ82 Makarov http://tinyurl.com/6ykxvot
Walther P1 or P38 http://tinyurl.com/68r363q
Polish P64 http://tinyurl.com/6l9fatl
Yugo M57 Tokarev http://tinyurl.com/6awz4re
I know someone else posted these but great guns at great prices also C&R Eligible. And for the most part these C&R guns always have spare parts to get (even new pistol grips)
rattler459
10-20-11, 00:04
My vote would before a SP2022 in 9mm right now they can be found for under 400 shipped.
I have 2500 rounds through mine with no problems
l also like the makarovs and clones. My p64s are cool for what they are but by no means would l cc them. Even uncocked people have had ad's with a round in the chamber when dropped or bumped wrong, when cocked, if either of my p64s are even barely tapped, their firing, 100% of the time. I know l wouldn't want to be possibly wrestling around with a pistol that will discharge that easily. They do go bang 100% of the time though.
Some of Rugers pistols are good, granted the ones on that list are all notoriously shitty, single sixs are great.
Also a ruger p95 is a good pistol imo, it also isnt a great ccw weapon, its heavy, bulky, the grip is a little slippery, and considering the size it flips a little more than l'd like, but for a range toy/truck/house gun l like it, cost me 250ish brand new a few years ago. l've put over 15k rounds through it no problem, 99% people who have one report the same. Its one of the few pistols l have that feeds 100% of ammo 100% of the time has never had 1 ftf/fte, l cant even get it to stovepipe if limpwrist and try to.
l've have always heard bad things about rugers sub compact and pocket pistols but honestly the same can be said for most all companies in regards to that.
cz 75's are usually 400ish brand new, seems good to me. S&W snubs can usually be had for 300ish new if you look around. Glock police trade ins are seemingly always available online for 350-400.
montanadave
10-20-11, 05:48
Taurus 1911 w gold highlights....a top seller.....@$504.00......AWESOME - I want pictures!
What decision making process was involved in getting that train-wreck on a bestseller list...Holy Shit! Just wondering after looking at that list, does this mean the majority of people buying firearms are retarded?
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/637/handgunpistoltaurus1191.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/handgunpistoltaurus1191.jpg/)
For a nominal additional fee, this pistol can be matched up with a custom chinchilla holster and ass-less chaps.
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/637/handgunpistoltaurus1191.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/handgunpistoltaurus1191.jpg/)
For a nominal additional fee, this pistol can be matched up with a custom chinchilla holster and ass-less chaps.
Does anyone make a gold or chrome light for that rail? I'd hate to trash it up with an ugly x300.
BTW, I'd prefer ivory since "Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol. ..."
RepeatDefender
10-20-11, 11:55
Not only is it an eye-sore, but it's not even in .45acp (look closely) :lol:
I just wanna know why you list of "value handguns" starts with a WWII Surplus RIFLE.
Bad Medicine
10-20-11, 12:05
Does anyone make a gold or chrome light for that rail? I'd hate to trash it up with an ugly x300.
BTW, I'd prefer ivory since "Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol. ..."
Now we now where the ATF was straw buying for all of those mexican drug cartels!
polydeuces
10-20-11, 12:05
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/637/handgunpistoltaurus1191.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/handgunpistoltaurus1191.jpg/)
For a nominal additional fee, this pistol can be matched up with a custom chinchilla holster and ass-less chaps.
Oh My......Not just gold plated details, but chromed with Pearl-Handle grips....THAT IS SOOOOO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!
Stuff like this is worthy of a dedicated thread....
Bad Medicine
10-20-11, 12:06
Does anyone make a gold or chrome light for that rail? I'd hate to trash it up with an ugly x300.
BTW, I'd prefer ivory since "Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol. ..."
Now we know where the ATF was straw buying for all those Mexican drug cartels!
I saw a thread the other day on another forum showing Bud's Gunshop's top selling guns.
"New Ruger LCP .380"
Friends don't let friends carry .380. Just sayin' :D
I really like the cz 75's and would certainly recommend one for HD. Too big for carry though.
As for the m&p, you can pick one up for 450 no problem and toss in the lifetime warranty, they're hard to beat. For me that's a huge selling point.
LCP's are a definite no go! I can't think of how may times someone tells me about a great deal on those. No thanks!
I haven't seen the LCP shit on so much in one thread in a while :p. I'll keep mine though, even though it is so awful :cool:. Now, pertaining to the thread, I think that other members have hit the nail on the head. If you are hard up for cash but still want a (1) suitable handgun for defense, used Glock or M&P would be about the best you could do. A used J-Frame would be a decent choice as well. That list does frighten me a tad bit, but if you take a trip to the public range, you will see the same thing. Most people there seem to be casual hillbilly dirt clod shooters and these guns are just fine for what they want to do, which is probably just show off the size of their gun "collection" to their buddies. It is those of us who actually make our purchases with the consideration that this weapon may potentially be used to save lives who really care about quality.
Alaskapopo
10-21-11, 01:37
I believe in certain circumstances for certain people it is better to be armed than not. I know that if my sister moved into a bad neighborhood I would rather spend a weekend training her as well as I could with a 300 dollar .38 special than let her go unarmed.
Being armed is about more than just owning the gun. Being poorly trained with a un-reliable firearm is more of a liability than a asset. I do agree however that a good .38 special wheel gun is a good choice for a new shooter who only wants to put in the bare minimum in training. If you look hard you can find used Smith and Wesson Model 10's for around $300.
Pat
legumeofterror
10-21-11, 12:19
I really like the cz 75's and would certainly recommend one for HD. Too big for carry though.
Not really.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/LegumeOfTerror/IMG_4072-1.jpg
.....How about the S&W SD series? .......
I was wondering the same thing. Has anyone done any serious testing on the SD9 and SD40? They seem to be available new for about $360-380 in the regular channels, and about $320-330 or so from an LE dealer.
people mentioned cz75s already, but just letting you know they can be had for under $500 new if you shop around. The compacts are just a little more. The P-0xseries are even more yet. Stick with the 9mm though. I have a .40 and its been great, but they dont have a phenomenal track record with a larger test group.
-rant alert-
Honestly though, I never get these budget gun threads. How much money do people spend on beer, food, etc. Stop drinking/smoking. Eat eggs, a piece of fruit, wheat bread, and some frozed vegitables for a year and you'll have more money than you know what to do with. People spend $500 a month eating out without blinking but limit themselves to $200 for a gun for protection. How much do they spend a month on cable, movies, and other random bullshit. How serious are they really about protecting themselves? As for the pimp gun. It sickens me that that even exists. that is the spinner hubcap of the pistol world. :bad:
warpedcamshaft
10-21-11, 23:40
people mentioned cz75s already, but just letting you know they can be had for under $500 new if you shop around. The compacts are just a little more. The P-0xseries are even more yet. Stick with the 9mm though. I have a .40 and its been great, but they dont have a phenomenal track record with a larger test group.
-rant alert-
Honestly though, I never get these budget gun threads. How much money do people spend on beer, food, etc. Stop drinking/smoking. Eat eggs, a piece of fruit, wheat bread, and some frozed vegitables for a year and you'll have more money than you know what to do with. People spend $500 a month eating out without blinking but limit themselves to $200 for a gun for protection. How much do they spend a month on cable, movies, and other random bullshit. How serious are they really about protecting themselves? As for the pimp gun. It sickens me that that even exists. that is the spinner hubcap of the pistol world. :bad:
I agree with your rant, but I think many people simply don't know any better, or don't care.
I find that a lot of newer shooters are more leery about the price investment than anything.
I know a couple of new shooters I have been working with that don't want to invest much money into a gun despite the fact that they make a lot of money. The issue for these individuals isn't if they can afford it or not; they simply don't see the value in spending much money on something they don't see themselves using often.
Many of us devote our lives to mastering the gun, but a gun is a tool. Not all homeowners need contractor grade tools for around the house duties!
And, to be honest, the average gun owner (Not m4c.net average... we all spend more on ammo then we do on gas :) ) doesn't go out and fire their weapon often. The professionals and instructors on this forum fire thousands and thousands of rounds and need a weapon that can take that and still work in a dirty fight after wrestling a drugged up Grizzly bear. The average gun owner fires a few hundred rounds for fun and keeps the weapon around for emergencies and posterity. The weapon will sit in a pretty little case all nicely oiled up and cleaned to be shot twice a year. That Joe gun owner is probably just as well served by a cheap Ruger P-95 or Grandpa's S&W as he would be with the weapons we regard so highly. And, if some night, a desperate and evil person tries to harm our friend Joe, Joe is armed and has options.
(I am not saying there is anything wrong with the Ruger P95 or Grandpa's S&W, I am simply using them as examples of lower priced weapons)
best guns for the money-
I understand in other areas of the country prices may be variable
police trade in smith wheelguns- usually under 300 bucks (my last one was under 200!) and easily the most accurate production combat gun of all time.(unless you want to spend 2k+ on a sig 210!)
police trade in smith autos- 39/59 series- also usually not much more than 300 bucks
used police trade in glocks
surplus browning high powers
absolutely no reason to buy new- in my area what generally happens is people get a carry permit,carry a full size gun for a while, realize it is too much iron to haul around then trade it in on a small baby glock or j frame- so lots of excellent full size guns around at good prices here.
Bad Medicine
10-22-11, 16:10
best guns for the money-
I understand in other areas of the country prices may be variable
police trade in smith wheelguns- usually under 300 bucks (my last one was under 200!) and easily the most accurate production combat gun of all time.(unless you want to spend 2k+ on a sig 210!)
police trade in smith autos- 39/59 series- also usually not much more than 300 bucks
used police trade in glocks
surplus browning high powers
absolutely no reason to buy new- in my area what generally happens is people get a carry permit,carry a full size gun for a while, realize it is too much iron to haul around then trade it in on a small baby glock or j frame- so lots of excellent full size guns around at good prices here.
I would love to find a browning high power for under $400 most I see are right around $1100
Condition Write
10-22-11, 16:21
I would love to find a browning high power for under $400 most I see are right around $1100
Prices on new production are ridiculous. Buy used or try to grab one of the batch of Israeli surplus that came in a couple-three months ago.
I just wanna know why you list of "value handguns" starts with a WWII Surplus RIFLE.
Its not his list, its background information as to the purpose of the topic and what exactly sparked it (people buying cheap guns that are generally crap).
Anyhow I think there is many things to blame. Some are not knowledgeable and don't know better, others are just cheap (I swear I can picture people like the girl on True Grit), some just weigh in differently (you will likely never have to use it and if there is a 90% chance of it working then its good even in the hypothetic situation of needing it vs you will need to use it and it must work), got those who are broke/poor, really just want a range gun (course that also assumes they are ok with a lower standard of range guns since many refuse to so much as plink with a weapon of X standard and those who refuse to plink period), all sorts of reasons.
As for an actual list of quality handguns for $400-. I find this hard without going into used guns where plenty of revolvers, Glocks, M&Ps, and basically what has been previously mentioned are good choices. I will also say if people had to then going into used guns of the less desired makes/models like the evil XD is better then going with cheap guns.
Bad Medicine
10-22-11, 20:51
Prices on new production are ridiculous. Buy used or try to grab one of the batch of Israeli surplus that came in a couple-three months ago.
Sorry for the derailment but where can I pick one up at? You wouldn't have a link would you?
Revolver Value
Smith and Wesson Model 64 used from J and G sales for $260. Stainless .38 +P with the Heavy Barrel without full underlug and hammer bobbed. Read about these in another post a while back. We just got two of these in, and mechanically they are in great shape.... externally, the grips need to be replaced, and it looks like they've been dropped about a hundred times.
I spent about 4 hours grinding and polishing one of these guns and I've restored it to nearly perfect. Ascetically this the best looking revolver out there, for what that's worth, and .38 +P is very acceptable for a defensive round. I feel like I've gotten my monies worth on this deal. A new Stainless Ruger or Taurus would run like $350+
Nephrology
10-23-11, 00:54
people mentioned cz75s already, but just letting you know they can be had for under $500 new if you shop around. The compacts are just a little more. The P-0xseries are even more yet. Stick with the 9mm though. I have a .40 and its been great, but they dont have a phenomenal track record with a larger test group.
-rant alert-
Honestly though, I never get these budget gun threads. How much money do people spend on beer, food, etc. Stop drinking/smoking. Eat eggs, a piece of fruit, wheat bread, and some frozed vegitables for a year and you'll have more money than you know what to do with. People spend $500 a month eating out without blinking but limit themselves to $200 for a gun for protection. How much do they spend a month on cable, movies, and other random bullshit. How serious are they really about protecting themselves? As for the pimp gun. It sickens me that that even exists. that is the spinner hubcap of the pistol world. :bad:
It's true. I average 1-2 drinks per day with food and even I thnk that at ~1 dollar per drink that ends up being a lot. I know of some "adults" that blow 150 dolllars on nights out regularly.
Condition Write
10-23-11, 08:33
Sorry for the derailment but where can I pick one up at? You wouldn't have a link would you?
You can't swing a dead LOLcat in my browser without hitting a BHP link. PM inbound.
Also, to the general thread, +1 on CZ 75s. I don't think I've paid more than $450 for any of mine (used) and they conceal quite well in a 4 o'clock IWB holster.
Nephrology
10-23-11, 08:54
You can't swing a dead LOLcat in my browser without hitting a BHP link. PM inbound.
Also, to the general thread, +1 on CZ 75s. I don't think I've paid more than $450 for any of mine (used) and they conceal quite well in a 4 o'clock IWB holster.
How do they hold up over time? ive heard them poo-pooedbefore here on this forum.
Condition Write
10-23-11, 11:05
How do they hold up over time? ive heard them poo-pooedbefore here on this forum.
I'll caveat this by saying I haven't accrued the kind of round counts the experts can claim. My most-used 75 is up to 1,100 rounds with 6 failures to feed, all apparently traced to a single Mec-Gar magazine. That's mostly 115gr and 124gr ball but I've fed it 50 rounds each of Hydra-Shok 147gr, DPX 115gr, and Gold Dot 147gr with no errors.
Yeah, I know. Report back in 10k, right?
legumeofterror
10-23-11, 19:54
How do they hold up over time? ive heard them poo-pooedbefore here on this forum.
I just broke 2.5K on mine today. No failures outside of light primer strikes on Tula with a 13lb hammer spring. Switched back to the stock spring and it fires and feeds them fine. The gun has been submerged twice, probably sees worse environmental conditions than most people's carry guns, gets carried every day, and outside of surface wear it has had no issues. The longest it has gone without cleaning is around 800 rounds. I am more than confident in the pistols reliability.
Nephrology
10-23-11, 20:13
I'll caveat this by saying I haven't accrued the kind of round counts the experts can claim. My most-used 75 is up to 1,100 rounds with 6 failures to feed, all apparently traced to a single Mec-Gar magazine. That's mostly 115gr and 124gr ball but I've fed it 50 rounds each of Hydra-Shok 147gr, DPX 115gr, and Gold Dot 147gr with no errors.
Yeah, I know. Report back in 10k, right?
Well, I do think that they can be reliable guns, my only concern is long-term durability with small parts replacement. I do like them quite a bit, they are very ergonomic and the triggers get to be very nice with time and some work.
Not really.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/LegumeOfTerror/IMG_4072-1.jpg
Looks like it would conceal well for you. I just prefer a shorter grip for concealment & comfort.
Well, I do think that they can be reliable guns, my only concern is long-term durability with small parts replacement. I do like them quite a bit, they are very ergonomic and the triggers get to be very nice with time and some work.
the only small parts I hear about breaking is the takedown pin(pin that barrel rotates and recoil bottoms out on). And thats ussually with undersprung guns modded for competition. Ive never really heard of a reoccouring issue with them with original parts. The 40s have had some issues but seems to be mostly extractor issues. I had about 2k through my 40compact and had 1 FTE, replaced the extractor with an xtrapower spring and have 200 rnds problem free. Stick with mec-gar or OEM mags(they are mec-gar). I bought 3 mac-gars and one locks the slide abotu 80% so its a range-only mag.
Like anything else, If I bought one, id run it hard before deeming it reliable, if its used, Id replace the action and extractor springs before even shooting it... if your worried about it, maybe the slide-release/takedown pin. Other than that, most are very relable guns.
as for my previous post, I understand some people are not into guns at all, and just want something "just in case"... but I know people who own 12 or so guns and they all suck. A para 1911 that does not run, a lever action .410, an sks. Sell them and buy one good gun and a bunch of ammo. One guy in particular does not even shoot more than 1 or 2x a yr. Why does he have 20 guns? I guess I dont understand the collector mentality. to each their own... :/
as for my previous post, I understand some people are not into guns at all, and just want something "just in case"... but I know people who own 12 or so guns and they all suck. A para 1911 that does not run, a lever action .410, an sks. Sell them and buy one good gun and a bunch of ammo. One guy in particular does not even shoot more than 1 or 2x a yr. Why does he have 20 guns? I guess I dont understand the collector mentality. to each their own... :/
Personally I see nothing wrong with the owning of a bunch of different guns and ones of cheap quality so long as there is a recognition that at a certain point it might as well be a porcelain poodle collection and not much else. Nothing wrong in general with 3 good guns to seriously use and 10+ to plink, bullseye, goof around, etc as a lighter hearted side hobbie and practice supplement.
Suppose I have more a middle ground approach to what can/should be owned where there is some room for fun and random stuff.
Well, I do think that they can be reliable guns, my only concern is long-term durability with small parts replacement. I do like them quite a bit, they are very ergonomic and the triggers get to be very nice with time and some work.
Noting upfront that my experience with the CZ platform is limited to owning one very low round count 85C and having a few others show up in IDPA and USPSA.
The trigger spring is the biggest weak point. I've seen one fail in a P07, but I think they use the "omega" spring, so maybe that doesn't count. This is by far the CZ's biggest Achilles heel. I think most of the IPSC competitors who've run theirs hard (10k+) have broken one, sometimes two. Fortunately, Angus Hobdell sells a replacement spring (http://czcustom.com/cz75trsnew.aspx) that, by most accounts, addresses the TRS breakage issue.
The slide stop is the second issue. Breakage of this part isn't necessarily tied to use, and seems to be an issue with poor quality casting. AFAIK, it doesn't put the gun out of commission. The lever breaks, but the shaft (holding the barrel in) place doesn't. I think this is compounded by a heavier (not lighter) recoil spring, since the heavier spring causes the pistol to return to battery with more force. (A lighter spring with full power ammo is more likely to produce the frame battering you'd see with all metal frame pistols in a similar light spring / hot ammo configuration.)
The CZ-75 isn't a Glock, and you can't run it like one. It's capable of being more accurate and having a better trigger than a Glock, but in return it needs more preventative maintenance. If you're interested in the platform at all, your best bet is really to either hold off entirely or just buy direct from Angus and do it up right from the beginning.
A lot like the 1911 in that respect.
Granted that the casual shooter can be pretty low wattage--and that not all that much can be done about the unmotivated. There's a LOT to be said about those old Model 10 S&Ws as good pieces for the common man. Some years back there was a news story about an old geezer in the SF area that had bought one about 50 years ago, fired it once, and periodically lubed it with transmission oil and kept it under his bed. No idea what the ammo was but for all I know it might have been the same age as the gun.
Came the night some yahoo came through the screen door and out came the ancient S&W. DRT. Not quite textbook, but good enough at the time.
I always thought S&W should have used the incident to promote their products. And bought the old guy another box of ammo. Maybe even throw in a free inspection and cleaning for the gun.
Personally I see nothing wrong with the owning of a bunch of different guns and ones of cheap quality so long as there is a recognition that at a certain point it might as well be a porcelain poodle collection and not much else. Nothing wrong in general with 3 good guns to seriously use and 10+ to plink, bullseye, goof around, etc as a lighter hearted side hobbie and practice supplement.
Suppose I have more a middle ground approach to what can/should be owned where there is some room for fun and random stuff.
I agree 100%. They guy I mentioned has a blackpowder kit revolver in his nightstand.
Get a glock/m&p/p30, etc(insert relable handgun here, any handgun you know is reliable and have put some rounds through and are competent with)... but to only own 100 crap guns and to be proficient with NONE of them... Its not good for you, its not good for your family. Its, in my opion, the same as a fart can on a chevy cavalier.... useless.
defense is defense and collections are collections. Too many FUDS confuse the two. Like Jeff Cooper said, ( i dont agree with a lot he has said) owning a gun does not make you armed.
Basically, Budget handguns are not worthless, but buy some ammo, make sure its relable with the HPs you want to use, and at least be able to make hits and know how to manipulate the tool. Otherwise its a disaster waiting to happen. I understand people save their own asses with cheap guns, just make sure you CAN depend on it if you need to, if you plan on it.
I see people buying cheap guns, one box of Hps and thinking they are good to go... maybe it can save their life, maybe It wont. I guess thats just the differece between people who take themselves seriously and those who dont. I know another guy who loads his carry piece with remington FMJs. I tried to pursuade him to invest in Hps, but since hes older, he "apparently" knows more than me. I hope he never has to depend on them, and if he does, I hope he comes out on top because that would be terrible to know $20 may have saved his life.
ac130usnsr
10-25-11, 01:06
I'd have to say that 3 of the pistols on that list are very suitable SD weapons. The S&W Sigmas and the Rock Island Armory GI M1911A1 are perfectly good inexpensive SD solutions.
I do own all 3 of these pistols and have put about 3500 rds through the SW9VE, about 2000 rds through the SW40VE and 500 rds through the RI 1911. All with no malfunctions (most of the ammo was Winchester white box).
The Sigmas are well made and have great ergonomics and a lifetime warranty. Trigger pull is stiff and a little gritty when new, but after about 1000 rds, the grittiness was gone and the trigger pull was slightly lighter but still heavy for a striker fired pistol, though comparable to a DA revolver. Both of my Sigmas are accurate enough @25yds to be more than sufficient for SD. The reliability, accuracy and stiff trigger pull make the Sigma a good choice for a SD weapon, truck or backpacking gun.
I don't have enough experience with the RI 1911 to say anything more than so far it has been reliable and accurate. It's the only 1911 I have, but I have shot others and while the RI 1911 is not really pretty, it is solid and seems to be well made. All of the reviews I could find when researching it before I bought it were positive. I'd definitely take the RI 1911 over any of the Brazilian made 1911s that I've handled.
Having said all of that, while I think the above pistols are good inexpensive SD weapons, I will say that my prefered full size striker fired pistol is my M&P9, with my PPQ an ever so slightly second, followed by my P99 QA. The only Glock I ever had was a Gen 3 Glock 19. I didn't care for the ergos at all and gave it to my father.
I still love my Beretta 92FS, but it has become more of a safe queen these days and will probably be kept company by the RI 1911.
For everday carry I absolutely love my PPS 9mm, awesome little pistol.
For those of you that are a LEO or active or retired military and are looking for a good deal, find a stocking Glock or S&W LE dealer. They should be able to sell you a new LE program Glock or M&P for close to $400. The LE program pistols also usually come with 3 mags instead of 2. A S&W LE dealer should be able to get you a PPS for about $525, unfortunately that is the only Walther offered at LE pricing (at least at my dealers). The only drawback with buying from an LE program is that, unlike the retail program, choices and availability are somewhat limited and it may take significantly longer to get something through the LE program that your dealer does not have in stock.
One thing that is consistent with any of these pistols is that if you plan on protecting yourself and/or your family with it, you better be prepared to regularly spend money on ammo and dedicate time to go to the range and shoot it. Classes should also be considered, especially if you've never had any training before.
Guns attract retards like moths to a porch light.
Should be a sticky...
You are so wrong! :D
People believe the following:
1. All guns are equal in quality and capability.
2. You CAN get a good combat pistol for under $300.
3. Practice includes attending a CCW course (to get ones license) and then shooting at beer cans once a year.
4. No training needed as their Uncle (on their Mothers side) was in the Army and has taught them to shoot when they were 10. That fact coupled with the fact that they have a penis is all they need to know how to shoot well.
C4
This to, a sticky...
Most used Glocks will not go for much over 400, particularly the .40 cal models - I see used Gen 3/2 Glock 22s go for ~350 all the time.
I just picked up a gen 3 Glock 19 with Austrian proof marks (2009 build) from a guy at work for $325 - and it looks brand new. No wear in the usual places yet, no polished spots in the trigger assembly, nothing. I looks like it was bought, cleaned and put up.
That's value. :D
Nephrology
10-26-11, 06:59
I just picked up a gen 3 Glock 19 with Austrian proof marks (2009 build) from a guy at work for $325 - and it looks brand new. No wear in the usual places yet, no polished spots in the trigger assembly, nothing. I looks like it was bought, cleaned and put up.
That's value. :D
That's not a value, that's straight up larceny! Tell you what, send me the pistol and I won't call the police :D
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