View Full Version : Help me spend my ITR
ColdDeadHands
10-19-11, 12:35
If my Income Tax Refund is the same next year as it was this year I will have about $3000 to spend on guns out of it (yes it's a little early to make plans but when the $$$ becomes available I want to be sure what to buy with it). I've been itching to get a nice bolt gun for a few years now so I think it might be time to get one.
Here is what I've come up so far, feel free to criticize but please state your reasons.
Savage 10FCP LE 308 w/ HS Stock ~$900
Seekins Base & Rings $220
SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 Scope $1000
Harris 9-12 Bipod $115
Total: $2235
That leaves me with around $800 for a class and some ammo.
I should state that I have as good as 0 experience with bolt guns or long range shooting but I'm interested in acquiring that skill but on the other hand I'm not sure how much practical use the rifle would get (which I'm afraid of after spending $2200). The area I live in has thickly wooded areas and the furthest line of sight is maybe 200 yards which is when I look down the road. I guess in the back of my head I would like to be prepared if shtf. So I guess another question is; Do I really need a bolt gun or would a SPR AR15 more practical?
200yds?
Get a good accurate AR. Unless you want a bolt gun. My bolt guns get the most use these days. I just like them better.
... but for 200yd shooting, its tough to deny the usefulness of an AR. I don't know what kind of SHTF situation you are talking about... but if you are intending to ward off a zombie invasion then an AR would be much better than a bolt 308 at those distances.
Personally, I'd ditch the Savage for a Remington 700 Police or 5R Milspec. My preference for tactical precision rifles is Remington or Rem based custom. You can get the 700P for about $920 or the 5R for $1,000. Both come with HS kevlar stocks and will shoot amazingly well out of the box (sub 1/2 MOA).
Also, the SS 5-20 is an excellent choice but is going to run you $1,500. They were $1,000 on a Snipershide Group Buy when they came out. That deal is long gone and I'm happy to say I bought mine then.
Ditch the super sniper idea.
Go with vortex PST FFP from liberty optics instead.
Ditch the super sniper idea.Go with vortex PST FFP from liberty optics instead.
I second this, especially given the price difference.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-19-11, 16:47
Used gear on SnipersHide is how I fill my gunsafe. Lots of great glass and guns over there. You just have to watch it the FS forum, which is half the fun. Most of the stuf over there is hardly used.
I'd like to know more about the Viper PST scopes. I saw a review over there that said teh 4-16 was not as sharp as the 5-25 (?) version. So many options in FFP tactical scopes now. From a $300 Falcon to a $3000+ S&B. I think the steal right now are Used Premier 3-15 Mil-dot scopes. Newer versions with DT & MTC knobs are common over there for about $2000, way off the new price. I picked one up and love it. You can bludgeon someone with it if teh zombies use up all your ammo.
If extreme long range is not going to be an issue, may I sugggest a Remington ACC 308 rifle with the threaded 18inch barrel? A bit less than the 5R versions and maybe better for what you want to do. Lots of add ons and gear for Remington actions.
I think the steal right now are Used Premier 3-15 Mil-dot scopes. Newer versions with DT & MTC knobs are common over there for about $2000, way off the new price.
Wow... looks like premier's socialist price maintenance scheme is really working for them. :rolleyes:
A single vortex review is hardly conclusive. I have both 4-16 and 6-24 models, and both are equally clear.
deadly0311
10-19-11, 21:03
I would ditch the Savage, mainly because I am not a huge fan of the Accu-Trigger or the barrel nut system, and they just look plain ugly :D
The SWFA is a great scope and I would keep it and rock it. If you do plan on getting a Remington, I suggest the 700 SPS Tactical. Ditch the stock and get an HS Precision.
Personally I would also go with the 6-9 Harris over the 9-12.
This setup should be good for a long long time and shoot pretty well. The SPS Tactical is almost identical to the LTR, minus the stock, finish, and fluting on the barrel.
IThe SPS Tactical is almost identical to the LTR, minus the stock, finish, and fluting on the barrel.
Having owned both I agree with this statement. Except the heavier SPS didnt beat the shit out of me like the LTR does.:D
Personally I would also go with the 6-9 Harris over the 9-12.
Better yet, ditch the harris... and go atlas.
If your shots are going to be 200 yards or less, 4x is the most magnification you'll need. Matter of fact, a 3x9 or a 2x7 would be ideal. The scope wouldn't even need adjustable parallax.
I wouldn't hesitate to use an AR carbine with an RDS or 1x4 scope at that range
If your shots are going to be 200 yards or less, 4x is the most magnification you'll need. Matter of fact, a 3x9 or a 2x7 would be ideal. The scope wouldn't even need adjustable parallax.
I'd love to see you try to be competitive at 200yds using a 4x scope, shooting next to guys using 16's or higher when shooting for score on 1" targets. I'm betting you'd go for higher magnification in a quick hurry.
Blanket statements like the one you made have no place when discussing shooting. You didn't even ask what size of targets he was to be shooting at. A 4x would not be suitable for even 100yd targets if the intended target were small enough. You should be able to quarter the intended target with your crosshair. That is a prerequisite when choosing optics for a specific discipline.
If he wants to shoot 1" groups or small targets at 200yds, a 4x optic of any pedigree will not be a good choice. This happens to be the precision rifle forum, so I'm thinking he wants to shoot small targets accurately, instead of doing 30rnd mag dumps with an AR into a full size IPSC target, which your suggestion would be perfect for.
Ok, We're talking about 2 completely different animals when looking at a AR type system shooting at 200y and a bolt gun setup for probably 1000y if you know what you're doing.
First of all IMO, you need to be a bit more specific as to what you really want to do, or you want your system to be able to do.
Like someone else said, I'm not sure what you mean by "SHTF". if you mean New Orleans type of scene or, are you taliking about zombies?? I hope it's not the latter!!!!
If you want a precision gas gun like a SASS M110. You can have the accuracy to go out to 800 to 1000y and have the advantage of a higher rate of fire. You will however lose a bit of accuracy.
If you want a true precision system, then go with a bolt gun.
If you go with a bolt gun, I would go with a Rem 700 Police. You can have the barrel cut, threaded and put a nice can on it. A can will completely change the way the gun runs and allows you to deal with recoil.
Skip the atlas bipod and put that money towards glass like a Nightforce. You can use it with either a bolt or gas gun.
If you look around you can find used stuff and you'll have a top of the line system in your price range. I have a saying that goes, "buy cheap, buy twice".
Either way, you need to define your misson a bit better though.
R.
Reagans Rascals
10-20-11, 16:12
AR-50 or possibly a used Barrett single shot. Any lower priced entry into the .50 BMG game and you'll be more than pleased... You'll have the ability to go from 100 yards out to 2000 when you are comfortable (and capable of doing so), and only have to learn 1 weapon system then entire time. I dunno about uppers like the BOHICA... seems somewhat more like taking what you have and making it work than just using the right tool to begin with.
but then again... I've never been one to buy small and learn, then go medium and learn again and then go big. For anything... the first bike I bought was an 1100. I can learn just as easy on an 1100 as I can on a 250, in fact I'm even more cautious, and I won't learn bad habits and waste my time mastering one platform just to then move on to another and have to relearn everything.
I'd love to see you try to be competitive at 200yds using a 4x scope, shooting next to guys using 16's or higher when shooting for score on 1" targets. I'm betting you'd go for higher magnification in a quick hurry.
Blanket statements like the one you made have no place when discussing shooting. You didn't even ask what size of targets he was to be shooting at. A 4x would not be suitable for even 100yd targets if the intended target were small enough. You should be able to quarter the intended target with your crosshair. That is a prerequisite when choosing optics for a specific discipline.
If he wants to shoot 1" groups or small targets at 200yds, a 4x optic of any pedigree will not be a good choice. This happens to be the precision rifle forum, so I'm thinking he wants to shoot small targets accurately, instead of doing 30rnd mag dumps with an AR into a full size IPSC target, which your suggestion would be perfect for.
ColdDeadHands mentioned 200 yards being the range limit in his area and that he wants to be prepared for SHTF which indicates (to me) he's interested in a rifle for defensive purposes. That's not competing against others for the tightest groups possible.
Years of shooting in the field has taught me that too much magnification makes acquiring a target more difficult. If the mission is to shoot tiny groups or static steel plates at 200 yards, more magnification will work. But if the mission is to defend hearth & home out to 200 yards, a 2x7 is a much better choice.
I have never been in a firefight. But I have hunted in conditions described by CDH. A 5x20 will sit at the lower end of it's power range making it an oversized fixed 5x. A 2x7 is lighter and offers a magnification range that's actually useful under these conditions. Mission drives the gear
If you only want to shoot to 200yds l'd ditch the 308, honestly l'd ditch it all together. l rebarelled to 7mm-08 and like it alot, 260 is good too, 22-250 and 243 are nice as well.
I dont hate 308, l started on one, but unless you have to have one for palma or something l'd pass. For one, its not a great caliber to learn on.
For one, its not a great caliber to learn on.
I dispute that on its face.
The 308 is the PERFECT cartridge to learn on, as it offers mild recoil, wide ammo selection, limitless platform choices, and moderate ballistic effect.
What allows you to learn more about the wind?
1) A laser, such as the 7mm mags and 6.5x284 type rounds?
2) A much tamer round where there is less room for error?
In a 10mph wind coming from any direction, a IPSC steel plate at 800yds will test most 308 shooters. Put a hot 7mm in the same shooters hands and he's pretty much holding edge of plate. Definitely not hard.
I say the 308 is the BEST learning cartridge. There is a reason everyone starts with it, and I contend everyone should.
But hes only going to be shooting at 200 yards or less. l just cant see any practical reason for getting a 308 for 200 yards or less shooting.
I dispute that on its face.
The 308 is the PERFECT cartridge to learn on, as it offers mild recoil, wide ammo selection, limitless platform choices, and moderate ballistic effect.
What allows you to learn more about the wind?
1) A laser, such as the 7mm mags and 6.5x284 type rounds?
2) A much tamer round where there is less room for error?
In a 10mph wind coming from any direction, a IPSC steel plate at 800yds will test most 308 shooters. Put a hot 7mm in the same shooters hands and he's pretty much holding edge of plate. Definitely not hard.
I say the 308 is the BEST learning cartridge. There is a reason everyone starts with it, and I contend everyone should.
I completely agree. We've had a blast learning on our Rem 700 308s. We took an hour and a half setting up on Saturday.
Wind flags and steel and shit all over out to 1000 yards. We had a 3'X3' orange sheet metal that make a perfect 1000 beginner target. It mills at exactly 1 mil by 1 mil and we got hits on it.
We're going to start shrinking our target size a little. Wind call is everything from 500 to 1000 yards.
But hes only going to be shooting at 200 yards or less. l just cant see any practical reason for getting a 308 for 200 yards or less shooting.
So you suggest a 7mm-08 or 260... both superior cartridges that offer even more range? Both 22-250 and 243 will have significantly less barrel life and eat up roughly the same quantity of powder. If anything I'd suggest a 223, but then he will be hating life if he gets the opportunity to stretch the legs a little. The 308 is the most common entry cartridge when it comes to learning precision shooting for a reason.
Please try to make sense in your arguments and don't contradict yourself.
ColdDeadHands
10-27-11, 22:12
Sorry I haven't been back here in a few days.
I'm still kinda thinking about a AR DMR Type Rifle but I think a .308 Precision setup would be the way to go.
The furthest distance that I can shoot at local Shooting Ranges are 300 Yards but I wouldn't mind taking a precision Rifle class....I think I'd have a blast. As for real world use, like I said earlier - max distance around here would be about 200 - 300 yards mainly because of thick brush and woods but I guess you never know where live takes 'ya.
My definition of SHTF would be I guess something like post Katrina, Economic Collapse or a scenario like in the Book "One second after".
ColdDeadHands
10-27-11, 22:19
While I like the Remington 700 5R milspec with the 20" Threaded Barrel I'm leaning towards a Savage mostly because of some of the things I've read @ snipercentral. Cons that come up quite often on the Rem 700 are bad chambers (sorry can't remember the term) & off center scope mount threads. I want to buy a rifle and be done with it, I have no desire to send it off and have it worked on.
I haven't read of any issues on the Savage Rifles and like the bigger bolt handle on them.
So you suggest a 7mm-08 or 260... both superior cartridges that offer even more range? Both 22-250 and 243 will have significantly less barrel life and eat up roughly the same quantity of powder. If anything I'd suggest a 223, but then he will be hating life if he gets the opportunity to stretch the legs a little. The 308 is the most common entry cartridge when it comes to learning precision shooting for a reason.
Please try to make sense in your arguments and don't contradict yourself.
I'm not contradicting myself all the calibers l named offer benefits over 308 at any range. Nobody shoots 308 anymore in competition other than palma because they have to, they switched for a reason.
I'm just saying for 200 yard max shots and a beginner a 308 just seems pointless. I'm not really much on arguing online it seems to be your thing.
ColdDeadHands
10-28-11, 14:54
I'm pretty much set on the caliber. 308 is easy to find and I still have a few boxes in my stash. :)
I'm leaning towards a Savage
This will not sit well with orkan. :eek:
ColdDeadHands
10-28-11, 15:12
This will not sit well with orkan. :eek:
:secret: :D
ColdDeadHands
10-28-11, 15:13
Does anybody know the specifics of the Savage 5R Barrels? I can't find any info on them. I guess they copy the rem. barrel but I wonder if they are SS.
This will not sit well with orkan. :eek:
I equate it to those people that get off by rubbing shit all over themselves.
They can do whatever they want... so long as I don't have to do it. Nobody has ever forced me to fire a savage! So, his choice is his own. ;)
ColdDeadHands
10-28-11, 15:18
Let me ask you what you don't like about the Savage Rifles?
Let me ask you what you don't like about the Savage Rifles?
Let me tell you what I don't like about Savage Rifles:
1) The action feels like shit when operated, compared to everything else I own.
2) I've had 2 savage rifles freeze shut on me when coyote hunting. The bolt couldn't be operated. Has never happened to me on any other rifle. Ever.
3) Every savage rifle I've owned has required work to get the mag system to line up correctly. Granted, I haven't owned one for 5yrs except for rimfire stuff. (which I'm moderately fond of btw)
4) Savage shooters constantly approach me with my $8,000 - $10,000 rifles in my hands and ask stupid shit like "what can that rifle do that my $1000 savage can't?" It's always BEFORE the match. Never after. I'll leave you to guess why.
5) I just don't like them as a company. Period. Their guns are made as cheaply as possible and the design is not robust enough to hide that fact.
None of this changes the fact that I don't shoot a SINGLE stock rifle. So don't go off half cocked. If I buy a factory remington... it usually takes a minimum of $1000 to get it where I want it... if not more.
So in that regard, I don't like about savage, that which I don't like about EVERY low end factory rifle producer. All their rifles are SHIT until you work them over. The only time that doesn't hold true is when you spend as much or more on a factory gun as you would on a custom. Such is the case with AI or Sako TRG.
However, at least I can tolerate throwing the bolt on a factory remmy without wanting to toss the ****n thing on the ground. (most of the time)
ColdDeadHands
10-29-11, 02:03
Thanks for elaborating!
ColdDeadHands
11-06-11, 17:35
Ok, I think I've made up my mind...I decided on a Remington 700 5R Milspec topped off with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP Scope. My buddy bought one recently and I really like that scope. This rifle should be plenty good to get me started and later I can upgrade it as needed.
How does the Atlas bipod mount to the stock? Via rail? How hard is it to install one?
What's the consensus on Base and rings? I was thinking Seekins Precision, any reason I should go with something else?
This works well if you have a bipod already set up with a throw lever.
http://www.seekinsprecision.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=15&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=93&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2
The Seekins rings are nice. I'm partial to the NF sets, never an issue.
ColdDeadHands
11-06-11, 18:30
Thanks for the info, where do I mount the Sling after I install the seekins rail?
I just stumbled over the Aadland 3 lug Rings (http://www.aadmount.com/TLRings/TLRings.html). They look nice. Any experience with them?
ColdDeadHands
11-06-11, 18:47
I found THIS (http://swfa.com/GGG-Extreme-Duty-Tactical-Bipod-P6439.aspx) Bipod Mount, it includes a sling swivel. Another question I have is if there is any way I can Install QD Sling cups into the side of the HS Stock?
Thanks for the info, where do I mount the Sling after I install the seekins rail?
I just stumbled over the Aadland 3 lug Rings (http://www.aadmount.com/TLRings/TLRings.html). They look nice. Any experience with them?
There's a sling swivel stud on the rail itself. No experience with the Aadland stuff. I like rings with the same torque as my stock screws to minimize effort. Seekins uses 55 inch lbs if I recall correctly. Most 1/2" drive ones(of quality) use 65
By the way-2-3 years ago, Seekins supplied two machine screws with the rail and they were not the pitch that HS uses--inquire with them to see if they corrected that. Of course when I called them I was treated like I had no clue of what I was talking about, they could not possibly make that error. I forget the thread size/pitch of the HS stocks, but Uncle Mikes doesn't have it right either. If they don't match, you can get them from a fastener store.
I found THIS (http://swfa.com/GGG-Extreme-Duty-Tactical-Bipod-P6439.aspx) Bipod Mount, it includes a sling swivel. Another question I have is if there is any way I can Install QD Sling cups into the side of the HS Stock?
I had Mr. Hooper of Hooper Ordnance do mine on an HS stock, he did it into the sides for me. Front one was screwed right into the aluminum block and epoxied in(he said the stock itself would break first). I had the rear positioned so I could still use the Eagle stock pack(if doing again, I would've burned a hole into the buttpad strap). He also did the bottom metal, which is his design by the way. The bolt re-enforcement is a nice feature.
http://www.hooperordnance.com/page1.aspx
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/006-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/005-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/004-5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/003-7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/002-7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/001-5.jpg
ColdDeadHands
11-06-11, 19:22
That looks good! Thanks for the info, especially on the rail.
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